Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 381296 times)

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #120 on: June 16, 2013, 04:52:38 pm »
Sorry my Zionist Fliend...if you you believe that the USA has no involvment in Syria already then you're an innocent. ..
just how can the rebels have enough firepower to take on the whole Syrian army? France and the UK are nothing more than client states of the US who do what theyr're told.
those reports of 130,000 deaths, chemical weapons accusations are propaganda to sell us in the west another war. How many deaths are at the hands of the rebels? notice how the allegations of chemical weapons  came out when Russia is pushing for a negotiated settlement

You really can't wait for anther war can you? You might even get that enormous stiffy you've promised yourself


Ermm, I think if you read my post above it is clear that allegations of chemical weapons use have been ongoing for more than six months.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #121 on: June 16, 2013, 04:55:01 pm »
As pieces of propaganda go it looks very well researched:
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/SY/HRDAG-Updated-SY-report.pdf
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #122 on: June 16, 2013, 04:57:15 pm »
You really can't wait for anther war can you?

The war's happening already you clot. Somewhere between 75,000 and 130,000 Syrians have died. Of course they don't count. They're only Arabs right? Arab deaths only matter when the Americans, Brits or Israelis inflict them.

I know you're not keen on Jews. But I don't think you're that keen on Arabs either.
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Offline Paul_h

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #123 on: June 16, 2013, 05:03:25 pm »
The war's happening already you clot. Somewhere between 75,000 and 130,000 Syrians have died. Of course they don't count. They're only Arabs right? Arab deaths only matter when the Americans, Brits or Israelis inflict them.

I know you're not keen on Jews. But I don't think you're that keen on Arabs either.


This war can escalate with super power involvement, is that what you want? A much much worse situation..

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #124 on: June 16, 2013, 05:07:40 pm »
This war can escalate with super power involvement, is that what you want? A much much worse situation..

Those monthly death toll figures in the UN report suggest that it is escalating without direct superpower intervention.

Paul, simple question. If the Arab League intervention plan put before the UN two years ago had gone ahead rather than being blocked by Russia and China, do you think the situation now would be better or worse?
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Offline Paul_h

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2013, 05:32:43 pm »
Those monthly death toll figures in the UN report suggest that it is escalating without direct superpower intervention.

Paul, simple question. If the Arab League intervention plan put before the UN two years ago had gone ahead rather than being blocked by Russia and China, do you think the situation now would be better or worse?

The arab leauge is made up of countries that receive money from the US. Especilly Egypt. So Arab leauge = USA!

Despite what our media tells us Russia and China are not the bad guys here. And when i say escalation, i don't just mean in Syria..


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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2013, 05:37:48 pm »
The arab leauge is made up of countries that receive money from the US. Especilly Egypt. So Arab leauge = USA!

Despite what our media tells us Russia and China are not the bad guys here. And when i say escalation, i don't just mean in Syria..



Who are the bad guys?
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Offline Paul_h

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2013, 05:59:15 pm »
the warmongers

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2013, 06:11:02 pm »
Oh don't be shy. Come on. You can say it.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2013, 06:34:25 pm »
The arab leauge is made up of countries that receive money from the US. Especilly Egypt. So Arab leauge = USA!

Despite what our media tells us Russia and China are not the bad guys here. And when i say escalation, i don't just mean in Syria..

It was a very simple question.  And remarkably  enough it was not the one you answered.  Have another crack.
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Offline Paul_h

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #130 on: June 16, 2013, 09:02:39 pm »
It was a very simple question.  And remarkably  enough it was not the one you answered.  Have another crack.
i thought i did. Well, in a rountabout way.
I dont know. And neither do you. The point I was trying to make is Arab League intervention is American intervention by the back door, and in my view, not lead to peace in Syria. Quite the opposite.
Any war is good for the lucraitive arms industry. Just ask Cameron, who when visiting Egypt after the overthrow of Mubarak, went with representatives of the arms dealers ..
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:59:32 pm by Paul_h »

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2013, 09:40:49 pm »
i thought i did. Well, in a rountabout way.
I dont know. And neither do you. The point I was trying to make is Arab League intervention is American intervention by the back door, and in my view, not lead to peace in Syria. Quite the opposite.
Any war is good for the lucraitive arms industry. Just ask Cameron, who when visiting Egypt after the overthrow of Barak, went with representatives of the arms dealers ..

I've never claimed to know. It is hard to imagine a parallel history for Syria post 2011 that would leave it in a worse position than we have now though.
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Offline KUNGFUDANCER

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2013, 06:15:21 pm »
The rebels have been taken over by religious freaks. It will be like arming Taliban/Al-Qaeda against the soviets.. USA should stay out of it.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:19:51 pm by kungfudancer »

Offline AA1122

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2013, 06:37:17 pm »
The rebels have been taken over by religious freaks. It will be like arming Taliban/Al-Qaeda against the soviets.. USA should stay out of it.

http://www.channel4.com/news/syria-files-interactive-rebels-weapons-money-ideology-assad

For what it's worth here's Channel 4's breakdown of the Syrian rebels' factions. Which of course is by no means conclusive and a few weeks old now.

Assad's position is no longer tenable, whether they would of been better off with Assad or without we will never know. But, the people should not have to live in a state of fear from their government. Maybe now, they will have new fears from extremists. But, it is not for us to decide.

This revolution was founded on democratic principles. While I do not agree with arming the rebels, I understand the argument for arming them. As Cameron says, if we do not arm the more secular non-extremists, then the extremist rebels will become stronger as they are well armed and well funded. While, the secular FSA will stand little hope of getting anything as they are no match for Assad's forces and no match for the extremists.

However, the lines between who are the FSA and who the other groups are blurred, one fighter might fight for one group one day and in a few months might be fighting for another group. We really don't know.

I was reading on Twitter, from some of the reporters I follow, that a small number of arms were transferred to FSA through Jordan. I cannot remember what the weapons were, but I think manpads were mentioned and RPG 29s (I know nothing about weapons, but, just try to follow the conflict). Anyway, these weapons later appeared in youtube videos in the hands of Al-Sham and Jabhat Al-Nursa extremists. I will try and scroll back through Twitter and find this.

Of course, this is not fully verified, but my point is, the weapons seem to change hands fast, whether rebels steal them from government, government steal them from rebels, rebels pass them amongst each other, or rebels steal them from each other. We don't know.

And, should we really be arming people when we do not know where these weapons will end up? I don't think so. A manpad might take a few MiGs out of the sky, but God forbid it hit a civilian aircraft which is much easier to hit.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:39:14 pm by AA1122 »
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Offline AA1122

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2013, 08:13:03 pm »
I will try and scroll back through Twitter and find this.

I can't find the narrative I was after, however, I have found two similar articles:

http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/evidence-of-jabhat-al-nusra-with.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/world/middleeast/arms-airlift-to-syrian-rebels-expands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all

The narrative I remember reading was that weapons were supplied to FSA on condition that they did not get into hands of extremists, but they did, so the supply stopped. The point I was trying to make is that these weapons are not guaranteed to end up in safe hands.

I think to call all rebels extremists is inaccurate and is a bit of an injustice. I am sure they did not want the situation to end up like this. They deserve to live in a society without oppression and fear and have already paid far too heavy a price for a 'normal' life. But, there are major risks with arming them.

Sadly, whether chemical weapons have been used or the fact that so many have died, does not change the fact that these major risks exist.

To start supporting Assad because the rebels have extremist elements is unwise in my eyes.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2013, 09:34:59 pm »
Good posts those AA1122. Informed analysis of the mess rather than a pretence that there are simple answers.

I agree with you that once you introduce weapons to the battlefield then there is little you can do control where they end up.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2013, 10:53:10 pm »
Assad's position is no longer tenable, whether they would of been better off with Assad or without we will never know. But, the people should not have to live in a state of fear from their government. Maybe now, they will have new fears from extremists. But, it is not for us to decide.

According to the latest data, 70% of Syrians support Assad's regime.

Quote
NATO data: Assad winning the war for Syrians’ hearts and minds


LONDON — After two years of civil war, support for the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad was said to have sharply increased. NATO has been studying data that told of a sharp rise in support for Assad. The data, compiled by Western-sponsored activists and organizations, showed that a majority of Syrians were alarmed by the Al Qaida takeover of the Sunni revolt and preferred to return to Assad, Middle East Newsline reported.

“The people are sick of the war and hate the jihadists more than Assad,” a Western source familiar with the data said. “Assad is winning the war mostly because the people are cooperating with him against the rebels.”

The data, relayed to NATO over the last month, asserted that 70 percent of Syrians support the Assad regime. Another 20 percent were deemed neutral and the remaining 10 percent expressed support for the rebels.

The sources said no formal polling was taken in Syria, racked by two years of civil war in which 90,000 people were reported killed. They said the data came from a range of activists and independent organizations that were working in Syria, particularly in relief efforts.

The data was relayed to NATO as the Western alliance has been divided over whether to intervene in Syria. Britain and France were said to have been preparing to send weapons to the rebels while the United States was focusing on protecting Syria’s southern neighbor Jordan.

A report to NATO said Syrians have undergone a change of heart over the last six months. The change was seen most in the majority Sunni community,which was long thought to have supported the revolt.

“The Sunnis have no love for Assad, but the great majority of the community is withdrawing from the revolt,” the source said. “What is left is the foreign fighters who are sponsored by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. They are seen by the Sunnis as far worse than Assad.”

http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/31/nato-data-assad-winning-the-war-for-syrians-hearts-and-minds/
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 11:05:39 pm by Conocinico »
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2013, 11:32:54 pm »
According to the latest data, 70% of Syrians support Assad's regime.


That maybe the single fucking dumbest thing I've read in this thread. Do you honestly believe you could conduct a reliable scientific poll done in the middle of a rapidly deteriorating sectarian war?
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2013, 11:43:15 pm »
That maybe the single fucking dumbest thing I've read in this thread. Do you honestly believe you could conduct a reliable scientific poll done in the middle of a rapidly deteriorating sectarian war?

"According to the latest data..."

Fuck me, it's not hard to understand is it?



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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2013, 11:54:38 pm »
"According to the latest data..."

Fuck me, it's not hard to understand is it?


Do you think yougov just pop along to places like Qusayr, Idlib, Allepo and Homs and ask the residents about their feeling towards Al Assad?

edit: are the hundreds of thousands of people who fled to the refugee camps in Jordan and Turkey included in the latest data?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:02:24 am by Sinos »
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2013, 12:00:56 am »
Why would I think that when the article quite clearly states otherwise?
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2013, 12:13:51 am »
Why would I think that when the article quite clearly states otherwise?

If no reliable polling was done how can you be sure that the claim of 70% support for Al Assad  is true?
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2013, 12:41:00 am »
If no reliable polling was done how can you be sure that the claim of 70% support for Al Assad  is true?

Just read the article.

If worldtribune aren't fabricating things - and I see no reason why they should - this is data collected for NATO. Of course challenges exist when collecting accurate info in conflicts but at least collecting data using activists and relief workers who are actually on the ground in Syria, should be a sight more reliable than previous attempts.
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2013, 12:55:07 am »
Just read the article.

If worldtribune aren't fabricating things - and I see no reason why they should - this is data collected for NATO. Of course challenges exist when collecting accurate info in conflicts but data collected by activists and relief workers actually on the ground in Syria, should at least be a sight more reliable than previous attempts.

I have, and it's nonsense.

If he had 70% support of his nation he wouldn't need the Iranian government, the Russian government, Hizballah and Shi'a Iraqi jihadis to wage a war against his own population.

This conflict started because the Syrian people were finally sick of Al Assad's dictatorship and started protesting, so to regain control of the situation he authorised his security forces to take whatever measures necessary to quell the protests, so they ended up doing things like this to a 13 year old boy http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c7a_1306811237, you can read about in more detail here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb.

I'm more than happy to listen to the many valid arguments against intervention, so stop insulting my fucking intelligence by playing dumb.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:19:16 am by Sinos »
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #144 on: June 18, 2013, 01:18:19 am »
I have, and it's nonsense.

If he had 70% support of his nation he wouldn't need the Iranian government, the Russian government, Hizballah and Shi'a Iraqi jihadis to wage a war against his own population.

The rebels have never had the numbers to topple the Assad regime. This is widely known. They also comprise a large number of foreign fighters too. Again, widely known.

This conflict started because the Syrian people were finally sick of Al Assad's dictatorship and started protesting, so to regain control of the situation he saw fit to authorise his security forces to do this to a 13 year old boy http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c7a_1306811237, you can read about in more detail here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb.

I read about it at the time. I don't want to upset myself again.

I'm more than happy to listen to the many valid arguments against intervention, so stop insulting my fucking intelligence by playing dumb.

Yeah I think it's best if we leave it here. I'm out.

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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2013, 01:39:54 am »
The rebels have never had the numbers to topple the Assad regime. This is widely known. They also comprise a large number of foreign fighters too. Again, widely known.

I read about it at the time. I don't want to upset myself again.

Yeah I think it's best if we leave it here. I'm out.



The rebels are Sunni's and they comprise 74% of the population of Syria, so to say the rebels don't have the numbers is staggeringly ignorant on your part.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2013, 01:41:30 am »
All's fair in love and war. So they say.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #147 on: June 18, 2013, 01:56:27 am »
The rebels are Sunni's and they comprise 74% of the population of Syria, so to say the rebels don't have the numbers is staggeringly ignorant on your part.

The rebels number around 30-40,000 latest estimates say. The Syrian army has a good deal more than 100,000 troops.
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2013, 02:06:51 am »
The rebels number around 30-40,000 latest estimates say. The Syrian army has a good deal more than 100,000 troops.

The Syrian army was seriously weakened by defections and losses earlier in the war, and now it is made up of theremaining Syrian army units, IRGC, Hizballah and Iraqi Jihadis who think they are coming to defend the Sayyidah Zaynab Mosque but end up conscripted in to the Syrian army.

I thought you were taking the high ground and leaving me to rant away on my own?
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #149 on: June 18, 2013, 02:27:28 am »
Well you haven't left it. You just keep coming back with shite.

The Syrian army numbered well over 200,000 at the start of the war.
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #150 on: June 18, 2013, 02:40:26 am »
Well you haven't left it. You just keep coming back with shite.

The Syrian army numbered well over 200,000 at the start of the war.

Assad could only deploy 65,000-75,000 because they were the only loyal soldiers he had. At the very start of the war he lost tens of thouands to defections and had to confine the rest to barracks because they were unreliable. As for the FSA, they are estimated to have between 60,000 - 140,000 men available, the only think they're short of is guns, ammo and MANPADS.

We can keep this going, but you'll only look more foolish
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 02:44:40 am by Sinos »
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #151 on: June 18, 2013, 02:57:17 am »
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2013, 03:01:10 am »
Fuck knows where you're getting your figures from. Certainly not from the same place I am.

Rebel numbers:

Quote
The revised estimates compiled by US and French intelligence agencies on the relative strength of Syrian government and rebel forces have given Washington and Arab capitals backing the Syrian opposition pause.  The Obama administration built its policies around an estimated 70,000 rebel fighters, whereas the new figure, disclosed by DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources, appears to be around 30,000 – one tenth of them Al Qaeda-linked jihadis.

www.debka.com/article/22440/

Army numbers:

Quote
The 2013 Military Balance aims to provide a comprehensive assessment of the Syrian military's fighting strength, and the struggles both sides have faced in getting the upper hand.

Here's the Military Balance's bottom line: Between the beginning of the uprising and autumn 2012, the Syrian army's fighting strength had been halved to about 110,000 troops. Of that total, the regime could only be certain of the loyalty of roughly 50,000 soldiers -- those in the predominantly Alawite Special Forces, Republican Guard, and 3rd and 4th Divisions.

Now, Syria is home to roughly 22 million people -- Assad can't maintain his substantial level of control with only 50,000 troops. For that reason, it's reasonable to assume that his core force of 50,000 is receiving substantial support from other wings of the military. Specifically, it is supplemented by: 60,000 more active army soldiers, another 60,000 air force servicemen, and an indeterminate number of police and paramilitary forces. And that's even before getting into whatever forces Hezbollah or Iran have contributed to the war effort.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/03/18/assads_army_gets_cut_in_half

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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #153 on: June 18, 2013, 03:20:50 am »
http://understandingwar.org/

My numbers come from a think tank who will be working off the latest press and DoD estimates.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 03:31:28 am by Sinos »
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #154 on: June 18, 2013, 03:29:24 am »
Could you provide a link to the articles. Thanks.
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Offline Sinos

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« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 03:39:29 am by Sinos »
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #156 on: June 18, 2013, 03:43:46 am »
Could you provide a link to the articles. Thanks.

if you've better things to do with your time this article boils it done nicely enough
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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #157 on: June 18, 2013, 04:24:32 am »
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Offline Sinos

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My ass cheeks clapped together louder than an excited Latino man with maracas... I had just laid the mightiest fudge dragon ever known to mankind in its very own water bath.

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Offline Sinos

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #159 on: June 19, 2013, 09:49:25 pm »
This is some excellent reporting on how the war has unfolded from an Alawite perspective.

If you wanted to make a decent anti-intervention case I'd start with the questions this raises rather than default to the tedious bullshit about western warmongers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/magazine/the-price-of-loyalty-in-syria.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&hp
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