Author Topic: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?  (Read 13760 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« on: January 2, 2005, 12:31:49 pm »
It always sounds a bit tame when a manager finds excuses –– blaming referees and bad luck with injuries. But there has to come a point where you look at what's happened, and it becomes fair to say things have gone against you to a quite ludicrous degree; do you laugh, or do you cry? Staying sane would appear to be the challenge. To his great credit, Rafael Benitez has avoided making excuses (and thus not given the players a chance to feel sorry for themselves) –– but he has rightly pointed out the problems he has had to contend with. He doesn't labour points about referee's mistakes, or absent players, but he does acknowledge them.

You can start with the litany of injuries. Perhaps you can argue that more could be done about muscle strains (in some cases this is possibly true, although a perfectly fine and a thoroughly-stretched muscle isn't immune to sudden damage; witness the awkward fall of Michael Owen at home to Arsenal last season, and the over-extension of his calf muscle).

Three broken limbs in three-and-a-half months must be some kind of record. It is also worth pointing out that the most serious –– a terrible leg break –– was to the club's record signing, Djibril Cisse, and a £14m investment was removed from the equation in October. This came after the club's best player (and, of course, talisman), Steven Gerrard, broke a metatarsal bone in an innocuous-looking incident at Old Trafford.

The latest injury –– Frank Lampard's late and clumsy tackle on Xabi Alonso –– resulted in a broken ankle for the player who would perhaps have run Gerrard closest for Liverpool Player of the Year (and still might, if his healing is as quick as his thinking). With four months of the season left, Rick Parry must be double-checking all the players' insurance policies, and inviting any willing Witch Doctors to Anfield to remove any curses and hexes bestowed upon the club.

You have to have sympathy for Benitez. How can any manager be expected to deliver consistency in these circumstances? The task he faced this summer was hard enough without the slings and arrows of outrageous bad fortune.

On top of those three fractures (to go with two early during 2003/04), there have been a series of muscle problems: hamstring trouble for Baros and Luis Garcia, causing both to miss a succession of games, and Harry Kewell has been in and out of the side all season with lingering calf and groin injuries. Josemi has missed games from a stomach-turning clash of heads, and now has another injury. Kirkland's back started causing him trouble again, not long after he'd looked to have made the goalkeeper's position his own (albeit far from convincingly). Within a day of his arrival in England, Antonio Nunez fell awkwardly and damaged his knee, which delayed his debut by almost four months. Vladimir Smicer has missed the entire season so far, and will miss a fair bit more of it. Igor Biscan, in the best form of his Liverpool career, fell into the advertising hoardings at White Hart Lane and hasn't been seen since.

Nearly all of this season's injuries have befallen Liverpool's best players, or the 'lesser' players when they were in their best personal form. Benitez has had his hands tied in trying to pick a side, all season long.

And now onto refereeing (and their purblind assistants). All teams experience bad decisions, and bad luck. But it's the level this season which makes it so remarkable.

Let's start with the old clichéd adage: "Decisions even themselves out over the course of a season".

Clearly this is rubbish, as it assumes that there is some fairness at work; unfortunately, the Law of Averages doesn't have to apply, and life just isn't fair. If you flip a coin, and it's heads, the Law of Averages suggests the next flip will be tails. But the next coin flip has no memory of the preceding one; it starts again with a 50-50 chance (in other words, it doesn't say to itself "I landed heads last time, better land tails this time because the Law of Averages says so"). The previous flip has no bearing on the subsequent flip. Quite conceivably you could flip ten coins in a row and they all land on heads. (As a test, I just flipped a coin five times and got heads each time; the sixth was tails).

The difference with football is that during any single match, the referee has a 'memory' of the decisions. He knows that if he's given an unpopular decision (and refs know when they are wrong, they just rarely admit it), he can always 'even it up' later with a generous award. Had another handball occurred in the Chelsea box, you can bet Mike Riley would have been looking to give us a penalty. The officials like to think they treat every decision on its individual merits, but we all know that was has gone before colours their judgement.

The problem we are facing that it's different referees giving us bad decisions; so again there is no 'memory'. Unless we are once again assigned the linesman who wrongly chalked off Luis Garcia's goal at the Reebok (or his one at the Riverside, for that matter), or the referee from the Monaco game who laughably ignored Saviola's blatant handball, then we will have little chance of receiving a redistribution of fairness.

Put simply, the key decisions at the key moments during key games have gone against us. I am not bemoaning the offside goal when we were already well-beaten (having said that, only Boro have beaten Liverpool by more than a single-goal margin this season), or decisions when we were cruising at 3-0. We had a lucky decision in the League Cup at home to Boro, but that was hardly a key game this season; and Hamann could have been sent off against Norwich. Beyond that, very little has gone our way. (Yes, we've scored some deflected goals, but conceded some too; to my mind, a deflected goal is credit to the player for shooting in the first place).

While I don't think we were especially lucky during the Treble season of 2000/01, as plenty of things didn't go our way, the one thing that does stand out is that the key decisions at the key moments during key games went our way. Benitez hasn't had the luck Houllier enjoyed of a defender making a goal-line save with his hand at 0-0 and getting away with it. Against Roma at Anfield, the referee –– as did Mike Riley yesterday –– put his whistle to his lips, but in that case he changed his mind and awarded the Italians only a corner. Benitez has yet to have the luxury of the opposition striker blatantly handling the ball for no apparent reason (as did Patrick Kluivert, inexplicably, when Barcelona lost the Uefa Cup semi-final at Anfield), and the award of the penalty deciding the outcome of the match.

Instead, Benitez has seen opposition defenders punch balls away from almost certain goals (first Muzzy Izzet for Birmingham, and now Tiago of Chelsea) and the referees bottle giving us a decision; perhaps fearing accusations of being influenced by the Kop's cries. When the opposition handled in the other box, as did Javier Saviola in Monaco, it still goes against us; the ref says he saw Saviola move his hand to control the ball before scoring, but it was 'ball-to-hand'.

The tone was set on the first game of the season: Gerrard clearly hauled down by his shirt at Spurs, and nothing given. It wasn't even debatable; the Spurs full-back walked away from the situation with the letters 'ERRARD' and the number 8 clasped in his hand. This season one has been left with the feeling that if Hannibal Lecter were in the opposition defence, and he mutilated and the ate one of our players (with a nice chianti) the referee would look across at his linesman and then wave play on. (Afterwards saying "I felt he clearly played the ball before eating the man").

These are the decisions that have cost us points this season, or at the very least made things much harder for us:

1) White Hart Lane: Gerrard's clear penalty claim waved away.
 
2) Graz at Anfied: their midfielder is booked twice and doesnt get sent off, and comes close to scoring a crucial goal minutes later.

3) Bolton away: perfectly good goal by Luis Garcia chalked off for offside.

4) Man United away: their first goal comes from a free-kick that should have been our throw in; their second comes from a corner that should have been our goalkick.

5) Millwall away: Kevin Muscatt grabs Baros around the throat and puts his forehead into Milan's face; despite other outrageous fouls, Muscatt not sent off.

6) Blackburn away: Blackburn's second goal is clearly, clearly, clearly offside; just the three players ahead of our defence.

7) Birmingham at home: Muzzy Izzet escapes conceding a penalty and being sent off for saving the ball on the line with his hand. (A week later he repeats the crime, and a penalty is awarded, and he is sent off).

8 ) Palace at Anfield: two penalties are rightly awarded for fouls on Baros; a third –– equally clear –– isn't awarded.

9) Boro away: Luis Garcia scores a goal by perfectly beating the offside trap, for a goal that should have made the game 1-1. Unfortunately, the linesman gets it wrong and we end up losing 2-0.

10) Monaco away: Saviola scores after controlling the ball with his hand. (Diminutive Argentinians and their hands, eh?).

11) Aston Villa away: the home team equalize from a free-kick where Gavin McCann blatantly dives (and subsequently apologizes to Jamie Carragher).
 
12) Newcastle at home: Newcastle take the lead with the most offside goal in football since 1888. Kluivert is 120 yards offside.

13) Chelsea at home: Tiago punches the ball away from Nunez as the Spaniard is all set to head in from close range. (Nunez, following his header at West Brom, must wonder when he'll ever score with the opposition punching the ball all the time).

(Any I've missed –– I'm sure there have been plenty more fouls on Baros in the box –– feel free to let me know).

While the best teams make their own good fortune to a large degree, even Jose Mourinho admits that Champions need luck on their side, too. While we're not Championship-class yet, we could be much higher up the table if we'd had the 'rub of the green'.

© Paul Tomkins 2004
« Last Edit: January 2, 2005, 12:44:52 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #1 on: January 2, 2005, 12:56:56 pm »
The Flo peno appeal yesterdee?

EDIT: Also when Anelka scored at Anfield this year, when he trampled all over Jerzy to get the ball.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2005, 01:00:54 pm by Ian-TN »
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #2 on: January 2, 2005, 12:57:58 pm »
yer forgot makele attempting to shag Pongo in the box and all...
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #3 on: January 2, 2005, 01:03:37 pm »
The Flo peno appeal yesterdee?

EDIT: Also when Anelka scored at Anfield this year, when he trampled all over Jerzy to get the ball.


Fair call on the first one.

The second, I felt any striker had a right to go for once a keeper spills the ball.

Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #4 on: January 2, 2005, 01:06:10 pm »
He has the right to do so but he doesn't have the right to push the keeper back to the ground when climbing over his back, unless Riley is the ref of course.

Also the league cup tie at spurs when, was it gardner?, was strangely not sent off.
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Offline yafoy

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #5 on: January 2, 2005, 01:11:51 pm »
when we were so dominant between mid-sixties and end of the 80s there were a lot of people who claimed we got more pens than we deserved and perhapd "fortune favoures the brave" because our players, either thanks to Shanks, went our believing they would win, or later , because we WERE simply the best team on the planet, I have a sneaking feeling that its a bit of 'Karma' , i dont mean that it will work itself out in the end, but that maybe the wrong attitude crept into the club, the fans and the team in the 90s and we are goign to have to work our nuts off to get lady luck back on our side, Rafa s position reminds me a lot of Shanks in the sixties, most of his early work is putting the word BELIEF into the players (and many fans), because I feel GH lost it when he had the heart attack, dodgy heart = dodgy decisions; nice bloke that he is, he lost his courage and wehadnt really got rid of the damaging "spice boys" effects , plus the pressure that caused Kenny to resign, and Souness to have a heart attack, means you have to have incredible courage to take of the job....which rafa has, the bad luck cycle has started to hit Man Utd ; this year they actually had a pen awarded against them at OT!   ;) ,,,,,anyway, the injuries and the bad look can be used to bond us all together, a healthy stint of group paranoia, the stinking biased press, the conspiracy of dodgy refs , and voodoo of injuries, a) gives us the chance to bring in the kids, find out what they are worth and b) pull ranks against the rest of the world....GOOD times and good luck are coming, just need to believe it.. simple isnt it, oh and for all the doom and gloom merchants... we are ONLY 18 points behind Chelsea, thats nothing son (Shanks told me last night in my dreams)  ;)
Shanks: "Some people believe football is a matter of life and  death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that. - At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it"

Offline kermit^

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #6 on: January 2, 2005, 01:29:25 pm »
I think we have cleared our debts to Lady Luck for the treble season. More than enough I will say. This is getting painful, so please Lady Luck, start wearing the Red shirt!
LFC (Liverpool F*ck-up Cycle):
1. new owner(s) says all the right things to win us over
2. give the mgr some money to spend
3. refinance the club with debts behind our back
4. got found out by us
5. sale process all over again
*meanwhile during the cycle, we'll be around mid-table challenging for 4th spot.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #7 on: January 2, 2005, 01:29:54 pm »
Superbly researched and written piece. Thanks Paul.

Encapsulates all I have been feeling, not just recently, but since about the time of the Blackburn game last season. 

At the moment my own feelings are of abject misery and disbelief. Not normally known for my pessimism, quite the reverse in fact. But after yesterday I am on the floor...Im impossible to live with this weekend. Not even the result and the poor decisions which cost us dear, in fact I draw heart from the performances yesterday and against big opposition this season. Its this un-fucking-believable bad luck with injuries. In fact, perhaps the 'evening-out' principle is at work... maybe we should be thankful that Finnan and Riise arent also ruled out after their injuries (laughs).
Feeling as I do, I feel the response of Rafa has been nothing short of sensational! Not once have I seen him complin in the face of his underthe surface frustration. What a remarkable man. Every day I praise our foresight and good fortune in getting this man to transform our great club, as he most decidedly will once we emerge from the storm and walk on together into the golden sky that is in the near distance!

5 broken limbs in 1 year! Not to bit players, but to our heart. It defies belief!

As to the many accurate incidents in games, Just a couple of weeks ago I mentally totted up the points we should have accrued had correct decisions been made. After yesterday, by my reckoning we have been cheated out of 9 Premiership points. Just think about that! Even in this 'transitional season', with new players n management, and even with all the injury problems, we would be challenging for second place, and with the ongoing success in the knockout competitions we are enjoying.

Oh, I suddenly feel better.

Keep the faith! Things have to start going our way again!

Beware 2005/06, if we do get the luck we surely deserve, we can yet be Champions

YNWA

Offline Spartacus.

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #8 on: January 2, 2005, 01:39:18 pm »
Sorry but I just think articles like this sound petty – I reckon most other clubs could come up with a similar list if they bothered, Newcastle’s clear cut penalty last week against Arsenal would no doubt appear on their list with a load of others that I cant mention as I don’t really pay that much attention to them.

In my opinion.

1.   Broken bones are unlucky – the same challenge another week and no one’s hurt.

2.   General injuries just part and parcel of football – maybe other factors would need to be considered, training methods, general fitness levels, rushing players back too soon and so on… but that’s life, Everton are really struggling with injuries right now, Man U had a hell of a lot of players out earlier on.

3.   Bad referring decisions happen to every single football team – that’s football, and they DO even themselves out – and I’ll tell you when, when we’re a winning team full of confidence we will see decisions going for us.  Does anyone actually remember Liverpool in 80’s?  Man U had it in the 90’s, Arsenal had it of late, maybe Chelsea will be next.  Watch MOTD and every single game has a talking point, a “debatable incident” teams get relegated who can actually look back at games and know for sure they should have had a decision that would have turned the game in their favour.  That’s what happens when you have humans referring games and not robots/technology driven officials and I for one would vote to keep it that way with maybe the odd advancement.  People will and always will make mistakes that IS part of football.

Nothing personal here just reading this and other such threads just reminds me of the moaning crying bitter fans that I live with – I refuse to go down their road were every man and his dog takes the blame for their inadequacies.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2005, 01:42:48 pm by Spartacus »
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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #9 on: January 2, 2005, 01:41:39 pm »
Good posting. I too don't like the 'blame-game' but when you've had the worst run of bad fortune in the history of football, it becomes increasingly difficult to merely shrug it off and make a glib statment like, "Oh, it'll all even itself out come May" or "The best teams make there own luck" - this statment is almost by definition, as a winning team often wins a game on the basis of one ot two key event going in their favour, thus they win and are then seen as the 'best'. We out-played Chelsea yesterday and were the 'best' team, but we didn't 'make' any luck.
 :'(

Offline Lusty

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #10 on: January 2, 2005, 01:48:28 pm »
Minor thing, the Kluivert goal was technically alright.  By the letter of the law, he wasn't involved in play when the ball was played forward.  The second pass was backwards, or sideways at best so that doesn't count.  That was more a case of a very experienced player cunningly exploiting the stupidest rule in football.  Luckily FIFA are looking at changing it.

But taking that away, we've had rotten luck this year.  I get the feeling Benitez might be one of those managers but, to his credit, he seems to be very good at rising above it and you hardly see him moan at all.  Maureen, Fergie, Wenger etc would all be moaning to anyone who'll listen but Benitez just gets on with his job.

Offline hooded claw

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #11 on: January 2, 2005, 02:00:11 pm »
Great read again , Paul.
It's the injuries that get to me more than the dodgy decisions. 'Some kind of record' it must be. Without researching the annals and archives of every Premiership team, I still maintain that we are enduring some freakish occurences this season..and that's after the 'two broken legs in one half' against Blackburn last season!
It's the personnel involved in these injuries too. To adapt Lady Bracknell, to suffer one broken bone is unfortunate; to suffer two smacks of...'  Well, what , exactly? To lose our record signing, our captain, our mercurial winger (when he was beginning to come into form, too) and our new midfield genius, stinks of bad fortune. Add to that Baros needing to be wrapped in cotton wool and a new player in a new league who damages his knee hours after signing, before even kicking a ball in anger, and you'd be forgiven for thinking someone had put the evil eye on us.
The question is, do we crawl into our corners to feel sorry for ourselves; or do we go forward with the right (and I make no apology for using the word) mentality. As you say, Paul, Rafa has had his hands tied all season in picking his best team. He must be wondering what has hit him at times.

And yet... we are poised to take fourth spot in the next few weeks.

Now is the time for wise spending, even given limited funds  as seems probable.
Now is the time for mental strength.
Now is the time to give Rafa, and the team, our full support.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #12 on: January 2, 2005, 02:01:59 pm »
Spartacus, agree that decisions can go against any side, and do.
I, and Paul I think, only mentioned these to illustrate his point. The title though, referring to bad luck is perfectly accurate.
5 broken limbs to KEY players in a year??
FFS thats completely unheard of! And isnt that the whole point? Of course many players weekin/out suffer bad tackles., falls etc..... BUT THEY DONT BREAK THEIR FRIGGIN LEGS AS HAPPENED TO OUR PLAYERS!

Thats the point of this article, and perfectly well justifies our questioning our bad fortune

Offline Spartacus.

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #13 on: January 2, 2005, 02:04:35 pm »
Cowtownread

I’m not questioning anyone or asking for justifications, I’m giving my opinion simple as that.
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Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #14 on: January 2, 2005, 02:04:47 pm »
That’s what happens when you have humans referring games and not robots/technology driven officials

If yer couldn't see the handball yesterdee yer not fit to be a ref. End of. Nothing to do with needing tv help, it was blatent.

Agree that some things aren;t that easy to spot but why was Yakubu booked yesterdee for kicking the ball away and Robben or Terry not? Why do some players get booked for having a go at the linesman and when Robben goes nose-to-nose he doesn't?

How does a linesman standing about 12 yards away not see Makele rap his arms right around Flo?

Ok the two garcia goals are human error and these things do happen but some of the decisions have been down right fucking awful. Like the monaco one, how anyone could not see it hit his hand is beyond help.

Inconsistent performances and decisions are not down to human error, their down to inept refs.
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Offline Spartacus.

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #15 on: January 2, 2005, 02:10:04 pm »
Yes agree Ian - very very poor referring...... don't see it changing either.... personally I’d like to see him sacked and replaced, the replacement will still make mistakes but maybe not to the same “standard” if you like.  Oh and as far as I can see the linesman are a waist of space, they don’t seem to see a thing, but hey we all have to live with them LFC are in no different a position to anyone else.

Would love to debate this further and respond to Paul's reply (I know its coming) but due to a bloody pathetic kick off time I am about to set off for Norwich, I’ll reply in a few days Paul  8)
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #16 on: January 2, 2005, 02:13:13 pm »
Minor thing, the Kluivert goal was technically alright.  By the letter of the law, he wasn't involved in play when the ball was played forward.  The second pass was backwards, or sideways at best so that doesn't count.


Jeff Winter just said on Sky that it was a ludicrous decision with no credibility. Kluivert was 'seeking to gain an advantage' as at no point did he check his run - Chris Kamara read out the laws of offside, and he and Winter agreed that this instance was a terrible decision. Didn't cost us.


Sorry but I just think articles like this sound petty – I reckon most other clubs could come up with a similar list if they bothered, Newcastle’s clear cut penalty last week against Arsenal would no doubt appear on their list with a load of others that I cant mention as I don’t really pay that much attention to them.


I know what you're saying, and yes, any team can compile a list. But I can't remember a list as long as this one I've compiled in just half a season. As I said, I don't want it to seem like moaning, but there have been an extraordinary amount of major decisions going against us.

As for 'normal' injuries, of course they happen. My point was more that we've suffered them mostly to our best players, or to squad players who were in their best form. My main point, however, was the three broken limbs, and after listing those I couldn't ignore the other things. (To compare, Man United have four international strikers on their books; we had two, and one broke his leg).

Benitez doesn't have the squads the top three have, as he hasn't had time to build one or spend gazillions like Mourinho. I was trying to say that many expect us to be up there challenging, but how can we? With our squad thin and in need of re-building, Rafa could have done with more 'luck' with regards injuries.

And sorry, decisions don't even themselves out - no way! There's no judicial system in place to say "Liverpool are due 13 favourable decisions in the remainder of the season" ! It could be that we get another 13 terrible decisions. I am not saying it's not part of football, merely making the point that Benitez has had to contend with a lot of adversity; more than is perhaps expected in any given season.

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #17 on: January 2, 2005, 02:16:21 pm »

And sorry, decisions don't even themselves out - no way! There's no judicial system in place to say "Liverpool are due 13 favourable decisions in the remainder of the season" ! It could be that we get another 13 terrible decisions. I am not saying it's not part of football, merely making the point that Benitez has had to contend with a lot of adversity; more than is perhaps expected in any given season.

And I'm sorry but they do  :P not saying it will be this season but they will IMO even out - have to go, will reply in full when I'm back from Norwich.
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Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #18 on: January 2, 2005, 02:40:21 pm »
Oh and as far as I can see the linesman are a waist of space, they don’t seem to see a thing,

Was it Poll that said he tells his linesman to only tell him when a player is offside or not and nothing else?

That is a joke and he should be struck off for that.

As should Riley for being such a poor ref, how he can class that as ball to hand I'll never know.
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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #19 on: January 2, 2005, 02:44:23 pm »
And I'm sorry but they do :P not saying it will be this season but they will IMO even out - have to go, will reply in full when I'm back from Norwich.
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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #20 on: January 2, 2005, 02:54:22 pm »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #21 on: January 2, 2005, 02:55:48 pm »

Offline murgaz

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #22 on: January 2, 2005, 03:09:56 pm »
Interesting read and replies. I'd add to the list the penalty we didn't get at Blackburn when Cisse broke his leg. I'm no doctor but I'm pretty sure you can't break 2 bones in your leg without some sort of contact.

I think the underlying point, bar the injuries you document, is the falling standards of refereeing in the League. Refs will always make mistakes, no problems with that as it's part of the game and gives everyone something to talk/moan about, but too many errors are just down to incompetence these days.Riley yesterday was a perfect case in point. The handball was so blatant and he obviously saw it but Riley is a weak referee and has a history of giving weak and incongruous decisions. Likewise, the foul on Pongolle was obvious, particularly to the assistant, yet Riley gave a free kick the otherway.
Now this isn't just some phone in rant about 'we was robbed'. Refereeing is difficult at the best of times but in the last 2 years we've retired our 3 best referees and not replaced them with equal talent.

Paul Durkin was easily the best ref in the league; he never bottled big decisions, wasn't a showman, didn't flap his yellows around to gain respect (his card stats were always the lowest every year) and I always felt he wouldn't be a decisive factor in the game.

Likewise Ellerey, now I know he could be over-officious at times and was prone to give alot of technical offenses but he was consistent and reliable.

Jeff 'nuclear' Winter also retired last year and although he was a show off gobshite for most of his career, his last season saw him as one our best refs.

These forced retirements have, I believe, left a big hole in refereeing standards. Poll is too inconsistent and in love with his stature. Likewise Rennie thinks everyone pays to see him strut around and Riley is simply weak and incompetent and always has been-and they are 3 of our most experienced refs.

To me, this means the statutory retirement age for refs is wrong, I still can't believe they retired Durkin. If refs are fit enough then surely they must be allowed to carry on.
It also means the adjudicating system still doesn't work as refs and players seem to be approaching the game totally differently.

Players need to shoulder the blame for not understanding the laws of the game (Cahill for example) and diving (Viera, Ben Haim). The League can address this by doing players on video evidence for blatant cheating, which I'm glad they've started to do.

The refs also have to change and be permanently demoted if they are consistently not up to standard, like Riley. And lastly we shouldn't get rid of quality refs just because they reach an arbitrary retirement age.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #23 on: January 2, 2005, 03:28:12 pm »
Good points on the refs - Paul Durkin was someone small in size but big in 'aura'; he stood up to players, and made tough decisions. He looked like he could handle a group of players harranguing him - unlike D'Urso, or Riley.

Riley just looks like a wimpy office clerk in some grey local government office. He doesn't have that 'presence' that little Durkin had, or the tall and scary Collina.

Winter came across very well on Sky this morning.

But even with the poor officials in general, there seems to be some fear of awarding penalties for us in front of the Kop - as though refs want to prove they aren't intimidated by the appeals. Clearly, they're getting too many wrong.

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #24 on: January 2, 2005, 03:31:15 pm »
Hello Paul, this is my first post on RAWK. I usually post on the ROATL website. I've enjoyed reading your posts this season, thoroughly good read each time.

Anyway, getting back to the topic of your post, I posted this on the ROATL forum yesterday. It's seems appropriate to do so here in this thread;

Have we cornered the market in terms of Premiership broken limbs this season;

I can think of 5 players so far. Apart from our 3, there's Carvalhero with a broken toe, and I'm sure there was another player with a broken Metatarsal recently (Steve Stone?). But can't think of anyone else.

So let's do the maths. That's 20 teams, with say an average squad of 20 players. This equates to a total of 400 players in the premiership. If 5 of those suffer from broken legs, that's a ratio of 5/400. Or put it another way, any given Premiership player will have a 5/400 or a 1.25% chance of sustaining a broken leg over the course of a season. (I know the season isn't over yet, but stay with me on this one).

And any single club will run a 5/20 chance of one their players suffering from a broken leg. That equates to each Premiership club running a 25% chance of one of their players suffering from a broken leg during the course of a season.

So what are the chances that the same club can accommodate 3/5's or 60% of the seasons (so far) broken legs? That would be 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 = 0.015625. Or 1.56% or a 1.5 : 100 chance.

I'm sure the chances of catching AIDS or winning the Irish lottery are better.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #25 on: January 2, 2005, 03:33:25 pm »
Yeah, we've been unlucky. There can be no doubt about it. When trying to install a new style of play, all our key players (bar Carra and Sami) have been out injured (Baros, Cisse, Kewell, Alonso, Gerrard). In addition we've had injuries to the rest of our new signings (Garcia, Nunez, Josemi).

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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #26 on: January 2, 2005, 03:34:41 pm »
Welcome to RAWK, Sweet Silver Song. Great statistical analysis!  :D

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #27 on: January 2, 2005, 03:35:39 pm »
To me, this means the statutory retirement age for refs is wrong, I still can't believe they retired Durkin. If refs are fit enough then surely they must be allowed to carry on.
It also means the adjudicating system still doesn't work as refs and players seem to be approaching the game totally differently.

The refs also have to change and be permanently demoted if they are consistently not up to standard, like Riley. And lastly we shouldn't get rid of quality refs just because they reach an arbitrary retirement age.

Definitely, the main problems are that there arent enough good referees in the game. We need ones that can command the players respect and be big enough to make big decision

Agree with Christine, Linesman in general are a waste of space other than to indicate offsides. They never seem to have any input in the game and very rarely help the ref when face with a contentious issue (that said not many referees are big enough to actually consult them)
After all they are supposed to be "Referee's assistants".

Collina is another big ref whos had to retire because of the rules (tho he did have a stinker against us  >:( )

Problem with demotion or banning them from games is that players can lose respect for the refs and question their authority.

I believe that Refs (and linesman) should be brought to book (in private) about bad decisions like the one yesterday, ones where the referee's opinion has been woefully wrong.

Not gonna complain about decisions that are wrongly given because they were decieved/unsighted or tight offsides
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Offline Red Lozza

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #28 on: January 2, 2005, 03:43:34 pm »
Good (but depressing) read that, Paul!

Rick Parry must be double-checking all the players' insurance policies, and inviting any willing Witch Doctors to Anfield to remove any curses and hexes bestowed upon the club.

I remember El Hadji Diouf saying he visited a Witch Doctor a few days before the 2000 African Cup of Nations. Has Diouf's Witch Doctor put a curse on Anfield after Rafa dumped Dioufy?  :o

Offline Nicoliverpool

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #29 on: January 2, 2005, 03:43:57 pm »
I'm surprised no one mentionned the fact that Chelsea scored from a corner which in fact wasn't one. Carra and Traore saw it and let the ball go out, surely they're not stupid. Having said that i have not seen any replay so i might be wrong.
Injuries are part of football, yes, but so many in half a seaon, especially on key players is fucking bad luck if you ask me. Our 2 £10m+ signings have broken a bone, so has our best player for the last 3 seasons (sorry Christine  :P), Kirkland is still made of glass and poor old Harry Kewell can't have a decent run injury free...
Oh well, as we say, what comes around goes around, i don't wish any injury on any other team, but just to see us fielding our best 11, for once  :-\
Yanks out

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #30 on: January 2, 2005, 04:08:57 pm »
I thought we got some simply unbelieveable luck in the treble season.

the roma pen that wasn't

macca clearly fouled outside the box (s'land) pen given

henchoz handles (twice) fa cup

henchoz in area fouls johnson whorthy cup in extra time
sure he got some of the ball but I couldn't believe a pen wasn't given

that's just of the top of my head

we must be all square now though :D

Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #31 on: January 2, 2005, 04:16:14 pm »
the roma pen that wasn't

The one at Anfield that wasn't even a peno.


Quote
macca clearly fouled outside the box (s'land) pen given

Then we had a very late goal disallowed for offside when Fowler was onside.


Quote
henchoz in area fouls johnson whorthy cup in extra time

When he actually won the ball.
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #32 on: January 2, 2005, 04:23:04 pm »
The one at Anfield that wasn't even a peno.


Then we had a very late goal disallowed for offside when Fowler was onside.


When he actually won the ball.

my point is all three incidents COULD have gone the other way but didn't.
anyway the best teams make their own luck.

Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #33 on: January 2, 2005, 04:25:09 pm »
Of course the could. Any decision can go anyway. But in those 3 we was lucky in 1 and the other 2 the ref got right. The one we got lucky with was cancelled out by the linesman getting the offside wrong.
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Offline ALPH1217

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #34 on: January 2, 2005, 04:36:57 pm »
Paul, I didn't care for the original post and tend to agree with Spartacus regarding this particular issue(s). We're all frustrated right now and with good reason because yesterday's result was misleading. However, when you start pointing fingers at key injuries and poor refereeing as the root of our problems it comes across as sour grapes IMO. Answer me this   .   . if we were injury-free this season would we be challenging for the league title? The oddsmakers had us at a distant fourth to win the league long before injuries took their toll. We're not part of the so-called "Big 3" and I'm sure Rafa's aim is to turn it into "the Big 4". It ain't gona happen overnight.

It's not uncommon for players, managers and fans to moan about officiating. I don't know what the answer is but perhaps the introduction of replay is a possibility. Here in America it's used during "football" matches effectively although it jeopardizes the continuity of the game. Regardless, I don't see poor decision making by officials as a major cause of our apparent decline.

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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #35 on: January 2, 2005, 04:42:03 pm »
I always maintained Henchoz won the ball in that tackle against Birmingham. I was more annoyed that when Gerrard broke through early on in the game - and was the victim of a professional foul (red card due) - the ref gave us as offside instead, when no-one was within yards of being offside.

Maybe things will even themselves out over the this season - I sincerely hope so. But there's nothing to say it has to happen.

It bugged me that in 2001 we got the 'Lucky Liverpool' tag. I don't believe it was true; but even so, we should be able to moan about our wretched luck this season.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #36 on: January 2, 2005, 04:47:39 pm »
Paul, I didn't care for the original post

Come on, don't sit on the fence! ;D

Answer me this   .   . if we were injury-free this season would we be challenging for the league title?


Where did I suggest anything of the sort? I said pre-season that top-four was all I was expecting, not a title challenge.

What I would expect is that we'd be closer to the top three. One, two, three really bad decisions - fair enough. 13? Hmmm. Injuries: one broken leg in a season more bad luck than a lot of teams would get? Three in three months? Not bad luck? Hmmm.

I feel Benitez is doing a great job, but that he has been hampered somewhat.

Offline Rushian

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #37 on: January 2, 2005, 04:47:55 pm »
I thought we got some simply unbelieveable luck in the treble season.

the roma pen that wasn't

macca clearly fouled outside the box (s'land) pen given

henchoz handles (twice) fa cup

henchoz in area fouls johnson whorthy cup in extra time
sure he got some of the ball but I couldn't believe a pen wasn't given

that's just of the top of my head

we must be all square now though :D

but the Roma one wasn't a pen .... Henchoz only handled once and even then there was a fair case of ball to elbow .... Henchoz go the ball v Johnson (ignoring of course that one of our lads was hacked down when clear on goal in that game, straight red card, but was given wrongly offside, hitting the woodwork twice etc) ....

don't think there was much luck in 2001.
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Offline murgaz

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #38 on: January 2, 2005, 04:56:42 pm »
The myth of our 'lucky treble' is just that. I think it was largely created to diminish Houllier during the protracted 'Houllier out' campaign of the last few years.

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Re: How Unlucky Can One Team Be?
« Reply #39 on: January 2, 2005, 04:59:45 pm »
The myth of our 'lucky treble' is just that. I think it was largely created to diminish Houllier during the protracted 'Houllier out' campaign of the last few years.

If we're talking of 'lucky trebles'..

IF...
Schmeichel hadn't guessed the right way against Bergkamp in the FA Semi
Bayern hadn't hit the woodwork twice
Atrsenal had turned just one of their draws into a win...


...what would Man U have won in their Treble season?