Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[scumbagcollege]

Liverpool's best midfield combination will (and ought to) depend on what kind of approach to the game we take.

Without a doubt, Gerrard/Allen-Henderson is an excellent midfield combination. But was it the correct one for this match vs Real Madrid?

No. And to not have the only DM at the club even on the bench is ludicrous, imo.

[Anonymous5]

Emre Can seems more suited to the pace of CL at the moment

[BostonScouse]

Henderson - Can - Allen/Coutinho/Lallana

 If you say gerrard you lose

[scumbagcollege]

Emre Can seems more suited to the pace of CL at the moment

Than who?

[BostonScouse]

No. And to not have the only DM at the club even on the bench is ludicrous, imo.

huh? Can is a DM

[B0151?]

No. And to not have the only DM at the club even on the bench is ludicrous, imo.

Why is Emre Can not a DM? It's his favoured position.

We signed a DM in the summer. His name was Emre Can. Repeat after me.

Not just at you, it's just irritating to hear people going on about how we didn't sign one, when we did.

[SerbianScouser]

Emre Can seems more suited to the pace of CL at the moment

He would have struggled in the first half when Madrid played at full throttle and pressed us so intensively and intelligently. In second half they allowed us to play with Classico in mind.

[Anonymous5]

Than who?

Just saying in regards to Emre himself. At times, in the Prem, the game seems to be too fast for him. But today when he came on, the pace of the CL seems comfortable for him

[Anonymous5]

He would have struggled in the first half when Madrid played at full throttle and pressed us so intensively and intelligently. In second half they allowed us to play with Classico in mind.

Could have a point there mate

[BostonScouse]

He would have struggled in the first half when Madrid played at full throttle and pressed us so intensively and intelligently. In second half they allowed us to play with Classico in mind.

If you are playing him as a box to box MF or in an advanced role as Brendan is want to do, but as a DM where he's a naturally suited and a physical presence there's no earthly way he could have been worse than gerrard in that match

[BostonScouse]

Why is Emre Can not a DM? It's his favoured position.

We signed a DM in the summer. His name was Emre Can. Repeat after me.

Not just at you, it's just irritating to hear people going on about how we didn't sign one, when we did.

because starting him over gerrard is a nonstarter for whatever reason, so he isn't played there ergo not a DM! (just going by the logic here)

[Paragon]

Hope we keep Lucas in cotton wool till the return against Madrid . We're going to need him.

Hardly. For me there's no way Lucas (with the injuries he's suffered) can keep up with the pace of play against the best team in Europe. Middlesbrough in the Capital One Cup is one thing, Real Madrid in the Champions League is another. I'd much rather Gerrard was playing deep. His passing range alone is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone competing for his defensive midfield spot. Take for example Stevie's superb cross-field pass in the build up to Henderson's goal against West Brom two weeks ago; I don't ever recall Lucas producing a pass as good as that. Gerrard's simply on another level.

[scumbagcollege]

huh? Can is a DM

He has played 5 games as DM in his career (5 1/2 if you count the QPR game).
He is more a LB than a DM!

[B0151?]

He has played 5 games as DM in his career (5 1/2 if you count the QPR game).
He is more a LB than a DM!

Brendan Rodgers: "He can play in any one of those three midfield positions. He prefers to play in that holding and controlling role but he has also got the power and pace to run forward."

[scumbagcollege]

Hardly. For me there's no way Lucas (with the injuries he's suffered) can keep up with the pace of play against the best team in Europe. Middlesbrough in the Capital One Cup is one thing, Real Madrid in the Champions League is another.

Strange. I seem to recall that the last 8 times Lucas played DM for us he was fine. Including games against Man City and Chelsea away.

[scumbagcollege]

Brendan Rodgers: "He can play in any one of those three midfield positions. He prefers to play in that holding and controlling role but he has also got the power and pace to run forward."

He can prefer to play in goal for all I care! Where has he played in his career?

[B0151?]

He can prefer to play in goal for all I care! Where has he played in his career?

Fact of the matter is, we didn't sign him as a LB, we signed him as a player who could play as a DM and CM. Do you really disagree with that?

[arab88]

I would have opted for Lucas-Henderson-Stevie if Lucas is in a good physical form.

otherwise I would go with Can.

[Kopenhagen]

Strange. I seem to recall that the last 8 times Lucas played DM for us he was fine. Including games against Man City and Chelsea away.

Oh the halcyon days of December 2013 - two games, two losses.

I like Lucas but let's get real here. I'm fine with questioning Gerrard but I'm not having this "just play Lucas" thing - we need better.

[Spanish Al]

because starting him over gerrard is a nonstarter for whatever reason, so he isn't played there ergo not a DM! (just going by the logic here)

Shut up and go to bed. Your anti Gerrard posts are getting very tedious and a bit boring now.

And before you say it, no he isn't immune from criticism.

[scumbagcollege]

Oh the halcyon days of December 2013 - two games, two losses.

I like Lucas but let's get real here. I'm fine with questioning Gerrard but I'm not having this "just play Lucas" thing - we need better.

Last 8 games mate, performances. And I didnt say play him (although I would).But not even on the bench? Weird.
 

Fact of the matter is, we didn't sign him as a LB, we signed him as a player who could play as a DM and CM. Do you really disagree with that?

As a CM, back up to Hendo, no I agree. But as a DM, to step in for Gerrard or Lucas? Fuck me, I hope not! He is nowhere good enough.

[ReeNah]

I thought Emre was very positive when he came on. That one run right up the middle is something I wanna see more from him. He can cut through the middle two and is big enough to hold off challenges. Instanstly puts the defensive line at sixes and sevens. He used to do it at Bayer more often.

Markovic seems scared? Sort of like Sterling a while ago. Clearly has the ability to beat a man or use his pace to get behind defenders but just sits in some space for a simple ball. Wasn't positive enough for me. If were holding onto a lead his style would have been great. However, chasing a goal I'd want him to run in behind at every chance and try to take on Nancho even if he lost it everytime.

Still think Emre and Markovic will be superstars though. How good is Sterling though?

[keswick]

Currently - Can, Allen, Henderson.

[scumbagcollege]

Currently - Can, Allen, Henderson.

Not getting all this Can love. Can (ha!) anyone tell me any game he has stood out ever in his short career?

[stoopid yank]

Best midfield 3 combination based on actual performance is Lucas Allen Henderson from last season away at Tottenham. The game where Gerrard was half time commentator and said along the lines of "its going to be hard for me to get back in the team"  I have not seen a better performance from a central 3 since that game. If anyone disagrees, please mention the game that surpasses that one.

Moving forward - my two cents - is that our best midfield combination is any that does not have our soon to be 35 year old captain playing 90+ minutes 2x in a week, despite whatever controversy that may bring.

[Chakan]

Sorry just didn't see the point of Joe Allen tonight.

[GrkStav]

Hardly. For me there's no way Lucas (with the injuries he's suffered) can keep up with the pace of play against the best team in Europe. Middlesbrough in the Capital One Cup is one thing, Real Madrid in the Champions League is another. I'd much rather Gerrard was playing deep. His passing range alone is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone competing for his defensive midfield spot. Take for example Stevie's superb cross-field pass in the build up to Henderson's goal against West Brom two weeks ago; I don't ever recall Lucas producing a pass as good as that. Gerrard's simply on another level.

The last 8 times he's played as a DM he's done a good job. It has now been said quite a few times, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. No one is saying he's better than Gerrard or anything of the sort. We are allowed to make a case for this or that player in this or that position as part of the best midfield combination, given what type of game we wish to play.

Finally, I think it would be better if people did not assume that because they do not recall x, y, z it did not happen. I did that once and a fellow poster set me straight with evidence, including videos (it had to do with Ryan Babel). It oughtn't take that for us to learn not to be so absolute.

The question is not whether anyone other than Gerrard is as good as Gerrard is at the awesome cross-field passes "on a dime". Probably no one is, especially in our squad. The question is, as always, whether it is always ideal to play thus.

Forget Lucas. Forget all current players. Sangria, back in the day, put forth an airtight argument in favor of NOT relying on a player like Alonso, whose long-distance passing rivals Gerrard's.

The whole idea of management is to not have to rely on the 99th percentile abilities of a single player, but to field a coherent whole that maximizes TEAM performance.

[GrkStav]

Emre Can has been at his best for us when deployed either as part of the '2' in the '2-1' or as part of the '2' in the '1-2'. I don't see how his brief stints at so-called DM/controller/whatevertherighttermis indicate that he's really the 'best' player for that spot/role in our squad. Qua controller/deep-lying play-maker, Gerrard rested and fit is our best option there. Qua DM/controller I still think Lucas is our best player.

2 holding midfielder combination central midfield setups ought not, in my opinion, include Gerrard. The 442, traditional or uneven (as we played at times previously, with Henderson as a 1.5 CM/LM), does not have 2 holding midfielders. For that, even the Gerrard Lucas combo will work.

If Coutinho improves his concentration, perhaps he can be part of a 1-2 midfield as one of the '2'. Otherwise, please no; it doesn't come naturally to him to play defense, he just doesn't have it (he tunes out, he gives up on plays).

[B0151?]

If Coutinho improves his concentration, perhaps he can be part of a 1-2 midfield as one of the '2'. Otherwise, please no; it doesn't come naturally to him to play defense, he just doesn't have it (he tunes out, he gives up on plays).

'Perhaps he can be...'

He already has shown he can play that role very well last season. He's never going to start every game there but he's already shown he can play it, indeed, his best performances for the club have been when he's occupied that role.

[diegoLFC7]

       Gerrard
Henderson-Allen
Coutinho or Lallana

Thats my choice. Can is a quality player but until Gerrard steps away from the pitch he won't get in the starting DM spot.

[Giono]

One midfield trio I'd like to see us try is Lucas - Henderson  - Coutinho. I'm not against Stevie, I just think Coutinho operating from midfield is an asset and that Lucas would allow Henderson to get forward a bit more.

[Obviously]

Gerrard, Henderson, Allen
Lucas, Henderson, Allen
Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho
Lucas, Henderson, Coutinho

All of those are unbalanced in some way, and we need to address that by buying players with different qualities. I don't think its the players themselves that are the problem, its the sum of the players. For instance Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard were quality and had complimentary strengths and weaknesses. Alonsos biggest weakness was mobility, but Gerrard and Mascherano covered that by being mobile. Masch had a lack of creativity, but Alonso and Gerrard covered for that with their ability on the ball. The sum of their abilities were excellent, and maybe the best midfield in the world. It gave us control with and without the ball.

Our only really creative midfielder is Gerrard, but as defensive midfielder i'm not sure that he offers the protection and control we need in that position. Henderson has a lot of qualities, but creativity is not one of them. Same goes for Allen. I would have Henderson in my midfield any day though, and i think he has the potential to add more goals and assists to his game. Lucas is in my opinion not good enough after his injury, and offers nothing on the ball. Thats why a midfield 3 with them would lack in creativity, even though it might be defensively the best we could offer right now. Coutinho is a really good creative player, but i believe he would struggle defensively against good teams and against physically strong teams in a midfield position, as an attacker he's fine. I haven't seen enough of Can to make up my mind on him yet.

I think the exceptional ability of Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling covered for a lot of the lack of creativity behind them last season. So with two of them out of the squad we are struggling.

I hate to say this but i think we need to take a page out of Mourinhos book and buy two players. One in the mould of Matic to cover the space in front of the defense, and one in the mould of Fabregas to be a creative force.

[GrkStav]

Suggestions on whom we should buy are not really relevant to the thread topic, in my opinion.

Plus, I am sorry, it's too small-time to 'solve' whatever issues we appear to have by "getting more players".

[GrkStav]

'Perhaps he can be...'

He already has shown he can play that role very well last season. He's never going to start every game there but he's already shown he can play it, indeed, his best performances for the club have been when he's occupied that role.

Mate, he did so well how many times last season? No, seriously, how many times would you say he played the #8 position well?

He has not already shown us he can play that role CONSISTENTLY last season. And his performances in that role this season have not done anything, at least for me, to suggest otherwise.

[creed111]

One angle to look at it from is that while yes not playing Gerrard will remove his cross-field balls, it would also mean less times our full-backs would be caught too far forward. Think about it. I've lost faith in Glen like many but in fairness to him constantly being caught too far up field, Gerrard perpetuates that. Remember a few weeks ago when Gerrard got on to Manquillo for not making a run to receive his switch.

Caveat* I want a system where our fullbacks are bombing forward as I envy Zabaleta and his contribution to City's game. But considering Glen couldn't wash Zabaleta's cleats in terms of decision making, maybe it's not for the best to have our fullbacks always been asked to bomb forward by our DM.

[B0151?]

Mate, he did so well how many times last season? No, seriously, how many times would you say he played the #8 position well?

I can't remember him playing badly in a home game in that position. Vital part in our big wins against Spurs, Arsenal and Everton. Remember him having a good game vs City too. So I'd say he certainly has shown he can play it. Did well enough against West Brom this season and I think that's the only time he's played it?

He didn't do well in the away games from what I remember, and I think it obviously makes his job easier when he has the ball in behind to Sturridge available, but other than that I'd have no qualms whatsoever playing him there in most home games.

edit: Not no qualms actually, he's a bit of a must. We can still be about fast transitions this season, that's what we do well, Coutinho is a big part of that.

[GrkStav]

I can't remember him playing badly in a home game in that position. Vital part in our big wins against Spurs, Arsenal and Everton. Remember him having a good game vs City too. So I'd say he certainly has shown he can play it. Did well enough against West Brom this season and I think that's the only time he's played it?

He didn't do well in the away games from what I remember, and I think it obviously makes his job easier when he has the ball in behind to Sturridge available, but other than that I'd have no qualms whatsoever playing him there in most home games.

Ok, fair enough. Perhaps you have a point in terms of home games.

[rickardinho1]

                 Gerrard
       Henderson Lallana
Sterling                 Coutinho

With Allen in there for tougher games.

to be honest, it seems like a pointless argument given that it depends on who we're playing to a very large extent.

Against Madrid I think BR got the selection correct, though obviously in hindsight Balotelli let him down.

[GrkStav]

Balotelli being an integral part of our midfield, of course.

[Obviously]

Suggestions on whom we should buy are not really relevant to the thread topic, in my opinion.

Plus, I am sorry, it's too small-time to 'solve' whatever issues we appear to have by "getting more players".

Wasn't trying to make this a thread about transfers. I was trying to suggest that all of our combinations in midfield have their weaknesses, some bigger than others. Playing Gerrard and Coutinho in a midfield 3 would make us defensively vulnerable, but attacking and creative. Henderson, Allen, Lucas lacks ability to create, but would probably be our best defensive line up. 

And its not about getting more players, its about getting the right players with the right qualities so our balance in the team is right. We are struggling in attack and defense, that would suggest that somethings wrong in the midfield(not the only reason, but part of the problem). IMO no matter what combination we choose we will struggle in some way.