Topic: It's worse than that, he's dead jim!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It winds me up when I hear of some poor person that haven't done anything wrong getting actually murdered by someone - as opposed to it being an accident or an act of passion and a moment of madness.

When you hear of someone getting 20 or 30 years for killing someone then I don't get it.

I personally don't think that people should be executed and I feel that people in jail should be treated well and humanely, but if someone went out and actually planned and then went to murder someone then why should they ever be free again?

I think of all the pain and suffering and anguish that they have left the families and loved ones they leave behind and you see some horrible scrote getting out when they are 50 or something.

Doesn't seem fair to me.

[Millie]

Are they ever free though?  They are released on licence.

[Red-Soldier]

It winds me up when I hear of some poor person that haven't done anything wrong getting actually murdered by someone - as opposed to it being an accident or an act of passion and a moment of madness.

When you hear of someone getting 20 or 30 years for killing someone then I don't get it.

I personally don't think that people should be executed and I feel that people in jail should be treated well and humanely, but if someone went out and actually planned and then went to murder someone then why should they ever be free again?

I think of all the pain and suffering and anguish that they have left the families and loved ones they leave behind and you see some horrible scrote getting out when they are 50 or something.

Doesn't seem fair to me.

Most police are great people though.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Most police are great people though.

Don't do crack son, it'll ruin your life.

[liverbloke]

hard labour for me

which should include cleaning the streets, cleaning the rivers, shovelling shite and generally making the world a better and cleaner place to live therefore their life has some worth to us rather than just feeding the trees

and before someone say 'they'd be taking jobs from working men' - i'd answer 'have you seen the fucking state of the place? it needs more hands not less'

[reddebs]

This guy, that's about to be released, that murdered his wife years ago and still refuses to say where her body is is definitely a wrong un.

He's a manipulator, deflector, a control freak and a serial domestic abuser who despite serving 30 odd years has never done a minute of rehab. 

He still doesn't accept he did anything wrong and is still changing his story without admitting anything.

His daughter, who also suffered physical, mental and verbal abuse from him as a child now has to see him walk away from his past a free man.

She's still suffering from not only losing her mum to his hands but has had no body to bury, no death certificate, no inquest and no end to her pain.

Absolutely no way should he be allowed to resume a normal life as though nothing happened.

[Dr. Beaker]

This guy, that's about to be released, that murdered his wife years ago and still refuses to say where her body is is definitely a wrong un.

He's a manipulator, deflector, a control freak and a serial domestic abuser who despite serving 30 odd years has never done a minute of rehab. 

He still doesn't accept he did anything wrong and is still changing his story without admitting anything.

His daughter, who also suffered physical, mental and verbal abuse from him as a child now has to see him walk away from his past a free man.

She's still suffering from not only losing her mum to his hands but has had no body to bury, no death certificate, no inquest and no end to her pain.

Absolutely no way should he be allowed to resume a normal life as though nothing happened.

When they refuse to give the location of the body you have to assume there is more than one body there. Well I do anyway.

[reddebs]

When they refuse to give the location of the body you have to assume there is more than one body there. Well I do anyway.

One of his stories was he burnt what was left of her and discarded the ashes all around the hedgerows of Hampshire but it was nearly 10yrs I think between him killing her and being charged so no chance there'd be anything left anyway.

[Armand9]

there are different types of murder, by law or by other 'mitigating' circumstances, eg someone technically murders a dude who raped and murdered their child, i'd give them a huge fucking pass myself

however, for cold blooded murder, with the caveat it's 100% proven and is exactly that, what we'd commonly call cold blooded, hang 'em high - i feel you can commit acts that are so heinous, losing your life for it is a just consequence, this is one of them

there are the obvious extreme examples like stalin and hitler and even they get a free pass to continue living for many, why the fuck i have no idea

and that bullshit about 'you become the very monster you revile' doesn't cut mustard for me - essentially you're saying no action merits a death sentence, that these people should be incarcerated and cared for by others, and yes it is being cared for (and payed for by tax payers), way to go

[Millie]

Absolutely no to the Death Penalty.  Far too many miscarriages of Justice for that to ever be brought back.

[Armand9]

Absolutely no to the Death Penalty.  Far too many miscarriages of Justice for that to ever be brought back.

i hear you and i get it

hence why when i said 100% i meant exactly that, cos there are 100% cases out there and they're not particularly rare in the US at least (and probably will become more frequent with vid footage etc)

how you put that into law and make sure it's only the 100% that are sentenced to death is something else, but not impossible, it can be legislated for, but it has to be absolute ironclad

[Dr. Beaker]

One exception to the 100%. When the perpetrator admits guilt and chooses the death penalty, They should say, 'No, fuck off to prison for the rest of your life.

[Millie]

Nah - absolutely no return of the death penalty. 

[The North Bank]

I think a life sentence is a harsher sentence than a death penalty, they should do time, locked up. No easy way out. The best way to go.

But it should mean life, not 5 years.

[Terry de Niro]

Absolutely no to the Death Penalty.  Far too many miscarriages of Justice for that to ever be brought back.

How about when they are proven to be 100% guilty such as child killers, eg The Moors Murderers?

I would have volunteered myself to put them twats to sleep.

[Nobby Reserve]

I could never agree with the death penalty.

But life should, as standard, mean life. I'd give judges the power to commute it to a minimum (of, say, 30 or 40 years) tariff in exceptional circumstances - but the decision would need to be reviewed by a panel of their peers.

I'd build a special prison just for murderers. The very minimum of spartan conditions. Only let out of their cells for the minimum time. Minimum standard and quantity of food. No visitors. No telly or other luxuries. With no chance of parole, no need for any rehabilitation. Just let them rot in a cell.

Executing them is too easy a way out for them.

[thejbs]

How about when they are proven to be 100% guilty such as child killers, eg The Moors Murderers?

I would have volunteered myself to put them twats to sleep.

That’s vengeance, not justice. The death penalty should never be used. And I’d still say the same if you murdered everyone I loved or cared about.

[Millie]

How about when they are proven to be 100% guilty such as child killers, eg The Moors Murderers?

I would have volunteered myself to put them twats to sleep.

Because, once you brought it back, mistakes would still happen.  You are either found guilty, or not guilty.  Not 50% guilty, or 90% guilty.  You cannot expect a jury to work out how guilty someone is, other than "beyond reasonable doubt". 

In the case of the Moors murderers - they both served full life sentences.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

That’s vengeance, not justice. The death penalty should never be used. And I’d still say the same if you murdered everyone I loved or cared about.

Yeah I'd be uncomfortable - well distraught if the UK ever brought back the death penalty.

Even in cases where 'Guilt is 100% confirmed,' there is always the risk that the person confessing is lying about it (Wether through coercion, attempting to protect someone else or mental issues and there is always a risk that a trial is a sham or a set up. There is always the risk that the murder was self defence or due to temporary or permenant mental incompetence and a million different things which affect the outcome of the guilty verdict.

Always makes me think of this;


“A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.”

― Fyodor Dostoyevsky


If the state executes people then what makes it better than those it murders itself?

[Elmo!]

How about when they are proven to be 100% guilty such as child killers, eg The Moors Murderers?

I would have volunteered myself to put them twats to sleep.

In theory every single murderer found guilty has been found 100% guilty. There is no such thing as 50% guilty. It has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

And yet mistakes still happen.

[Armand9]

That’s vengeance, not justice. The death penalty should never be used. And I’d still say the same if you murdered everyone I loved or cared about.

it's about consequence and if a law is known, it is a consequence of breaking that law

you can see it as vengeance if you want, and you can also see a life sentence as vengeance if you want too - any party wanting 'justice' can be seen as wanting vengeance if you so choose to see it that way, for shoplifting to mass murder.

you say it's not justice, who are you, or anyone else to say that a death penalty is not justice? just as who am i, or anyone else to say it is justice.

it's a philisophical question that comes down to each individual and as the outcome is so final, not an easy one

the core principal, as i see it, is there any crime so heinous that someone has forfeited their right to life?

for me there are such crimes. the harder part for me is can i rely on a justice system to get that right - i believe it's possible through a very rigorous and demanding burden of proof threshold

to Elmo's point about 100% guilt etc and fear of mistakes - you can legislate for murder that doesn't carry a death sentence and murder that does carry a death sentence, just as the US legislate for 1st degree murder as opposed to 2nd degree murder (the criminal act of killing a person with intent but without pre-meditation etc). I'm not saying that 'is' the model, meerly showing you can legislate 'types' of murder outcomes.

a hypothetical based on a real uk case - two dudes decide they want to murder someone cos that would be 'badass', they go out with a sword and knife, see a random dude who they decide is the victim tonight. slash him to mush. they openly talked about how thrilling it will be ahead of the crime (i think they videoed it iirc), joked while doing it, bragged and wrote songs about it after about how amazing it was. and let's say the act is clearly recorded on video (can't recall if there was cctv in the real case). that crosses a threshold of burden of proof that i would have no problem with in seeing those two swing. there is no doubt and the callous heinous nature is clear, it's just whether you think that death is justice in your eyes.

[Jiminy Cricket]

What kind of society cold-bloodedly put its citizens to death? And, do you wish to live there?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Time should fit the crime.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

it's about consequence and if a law is known, it is a consequence of breaking that law

you can see it as vengeance if you want, and you can also see a life sentence as vengeance if you want too - any party wanting 'justice' can be seen as wanting vengeance if you so choose to see it that way, for shoplifting to mass murder.

you say it's not justice, who are you, or anyone else to say that a death penalty is not justice? just as who am i, or anyone else to say it is justice.

it's a philisophical question that comes down to each individual and as the outcome is so final, not an easy one

the core principal, as i see it, is there any crime so heinous that someone has forfeited their right to life?

for me there are such crimes. the harder part for me is can i rely on a justice system to get that right - i believe it's possible through a very rigorous and demanding burden of proof threshold

to Elmo's point about 100% guilt etc and fear of mistakes - you can legislate for murder that doesn't carry a death sentence and murder that does carry a death sentence, just as the US legislate for 1st degree murder as opposed to 2nd degree murder (the criminal act of killing a person with intent but without pre-meditation etc). I'm not saying that 'is' the model, meerly showing you can legislate 'types' of murder outcomes.

a hypothetical based on a real uk case - two dudes decide they want to murder someone cos that would be 'badass', they go out with a sword and knife, see a random dude who they decide is the victim tonight. slash him to mush. they openly talked about how thrilling it will be ahead of the crime (i think they videoed it iirc), joked while doing it, bragged and wrote songs about it after about how amazing it was. and let's say the act is clearly recorded on video (can't recall if there was cctv in the real case). that crosses a threshold of burden of proof that i would have no problem with in seeing those two swing. there is no doubt and the callous heinous nature is clear, it's just whether you think that death is justice in your eyes.

And if you made a mistake? If you murdered someone that hadn't done it?

Slipperly slope that.

States like that have been making their opponents vanish throughout history. Imagine if the state said you had done something, executed you and then afterwards went 'Ah. Er. Sorry. Wrong guy. Hey ho'

Is that justice?

[thejbs]

Someone with diminished responsibility can also perform pre-meditated murder. Even if their diminished responsibility is down to something they did - for example, not taking medication for paranoid shizophrenia.

And what benefit would the death penalty bring to society?  Studies in the US show it doesn't deter crime nor murder. In fact, it's suggested that where the death penalty is an option, it's less likely that a hostage taker will give up when surrounded. States that abolish the death penalty see no increase in murder or crime. It's also a very two tiered system in the states, especially - the poor are more likely to receive a death penalty and less likely to get off on diminished responsibility. And that's all before we consider the falibiilty of the justice system - mistakes are made, juries can be manipulated.

Civilised society should be above doling out murder to murderers. Should rapists be raped as punishment? Should we burn down an arsonists house? Beat up people arrested for GBH?  Maybe child killers should have their own children killed... that'll teach them.

The death penalty is an abomination and never, in any circumstances, the right option.

[Huyrob]

I could never agree with the death penalty.

But life should, as standard, mean life. I'd give judges the power to commute it to a minimum (of, say, 30 or 40 years) tariff in exceptional circumstances - but the decision would need to be reviewed by a panel of their peers.

I'd build a special prison just for murderers. The very minimum of spartan conditions. Only let out of their cells for the minimum time. Minimum standard and quantity of food. No visitors. No telly or other luxuries. With no chance of parole, no need for any rehabilitation. Just let them rot in a cell.

Executing them is too easy a way out for them.

I’d agree with the above but would build the prisons in say India or Rwanda. This would be cheaper and would help deny the scrotes family visits .

[rob1966]

And if you made a mistake? If you murdered someone that hadn't done it?

Slipperly slope that.

States like that have been making their opponents vanish throughout history. Imagine if the state said you had done something, executed you and then afterwards went 'Ah. Er. Sorry. Wrong guy. Hey ho'

Is that justice?

Barry George (Bulsara) - never in a million years should he have even been charged, he did not have the knowledge or the equipment to disassembled and remake the round that killed Jill Dando, yet got convicted on dodgy evidence.

Suzanne Holdsworth, Angela Cannings and Sally Clark were all convicted for killing babies, Holdsworth was a babysitter, the other two were found guilty of killing their own children.

Every one of these were released on appeal.

These are just 4 examples in the last 25 years. All of these would have got the death sentence and been executed, as we had none of this sitting on death row for years, sentences where carried out reasonably quickly. All would have been wrong.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Nah - absolutely no return of the death penalty.

This

The death penalty is about revenge, not punishment.

No form of penalty will bring loved ones back.

The majority of murders are not premeditated.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Two of my family have been murdered.

Not once did I think about, or care what happened to the killers.

[Dr. Beaker]

Barry George (Bulsara) - never in a million years should he have even been charged, he did not have the knowledge or the equipment to disassembled and remake the round that killed Jill Dando, yet got convicted on dodgy evidence.

Suzanne Holdsworth, Angela Cannings and Sally Clark were all convicted for killing babies, Holdsworth was a babysitter, the other two were found guilty of killing their own children.

Every one of these were released on appeal.

These are just 4 examples in the last 25 years. All of these would have got the death sentence and been executed, as we had none of this sitting on death row for years, sentences where carried out reasonably quickly. All would have been wrong.

The worst one ever, in my book, Stefan Kiszko.

[RedGlen]

There's plenty of cases where the prosecution either fucked up, didn't get all evidence possible, or just had plain old tunnel vision for me to ever support the death penalty. Humans are fallible, including well educated lawyers, judges, police, prosecutors etc and we should never ever assume any institution is free from making mistakes or bias.

With the death penalty, it is utterly irreversible. At least with even the most punitive life sentences, you know that if there is a possibility of innocence, it may well be realised over time and effort and a person may one day be freed and the miscarriage of justice revealed.

Speaking more broadly, while I understand the very human desire for revenge, the desire to see someone suffer for the evils they committed, I feel that the job of the prison service should be rehabilitation*, not punishment or revenge. Plenty of studies show that the potential penalty for crimes do not prevent crime, because most people are not good at evaluating risk, and will assume they will never be caught - because who sets out to commit crimes believing they will be caught for it?

The best way to prevent crimes is to ensure circumstances are in place to prevent it from occurring in the first place. A poor/abusive childhood, poverty, abuse, drugs: all reasons people commit crimes. All are possible to fix, but require significant society rethinking and reallocation of resources. Institutions reflect the mindset of the people it serves. While the mood of society is towards punishment rather than rehabilitation and prevention, then crimes will continue to occur because the root cause of crime has not been fixed.

*However I do think some people are too dangerous or too far down a path of their making to change, and keeping them locked away for the safety of society may be the only option, I would count within this category: serial killers, repeat rapists, individuals who are not amenable to reform - essentially the current crimes for which one receives a life sentence should still receive this, everyone else should be helped to return to society, helped to find a job, and supported until they are ready to independently support themselves and their family again.   

[Nobby Reserve]

The worst one ever, in my book, Stefan Kiszko.

I miss Monkey Dust

[rob1966]

The worst one ever, in my book, Stefan Kiszko.

I left him out because it was 50 years ago, but yes that was an horrendous miscarriage, fucking useless/corrupt West Yorkshire Police fitted the poor fella up.

[Dr. Beaker]

I left him out because it was 50 years ago, but yes that was an horrendous miscarriage, fucking useless/corrupt West Yorkshire Police fitted the poor fella up.

They had proof beyond all doubt, of his innocence.

[Crosby Nick]

[Wabaloolah]

What kind of society cold-bloodedly put its citizens to death? And, do you wish to live there?

there's loads and one of them is the "greatest democracy in the world!"

[Jiminy Cricket]

there's loads and one of them is the "greatest democracy in the world!"

My question was more rhetorical in nature. You are, of course, referring to the US - I used to live there. There is a lot I liked about the US, but not its gun culture, nor its hypocritical schizophrenic attitude to what constitutes freedom, nor its use of the death penalty.

[rob1966]

They had proof beyond all doubt, of his innocence.

Yep, Kiszko was sterlile and the killer wasn't and they had the sperm to prove it.

You've got to wonde what goes on in their heads. Let's close the case and let a murderer walk free and they are happy to do that as it gives them a success record?. He'd (Crabtree) never have been caught either if he hadn't sexually assaulted a sex worker and she hadn't made a complaint. It was pure luck, as he was never charged, but his DNA was taken and a forensic scientist had used sellotape to remove material from the knickers, that while useless then was enough to get a DNA profile. 30 years that c*nt was free.

[Dr. Beaker]

Yep, Kiszko was sterlile and the killer wasn't and they had the sperm to prove it.

You've got to wonde what goes on in their heads. Let's close the case and let a murderer walk free and they are happy to do that as it gives them a success record?. He'd (Crabtree) never have been caught either if he hadn't sexually assaulted a sex worker and she hadn't made a complaint. It was pure luck, as he was never charged, but his DNA was taken and a forensic scientist had used sellotape to remove material from the knickers, that while useless then was enough to get a DNA profile. 30 years that c*nt was free.

His elderly mother who died before he was freed, fought tirelessly for his innocence but was ignored by everyone - even her local MP Cyril Smith.

[rob1966]

His elderly mother who died before he was freed, fought tirelessly for his innocence but was ignored by everyone - even her local MP Cyril Smith.

No way that nonce would have wanted to get involved