Topic: Separating the Art from the Artist

[Ziltoid]

As a kid I always loved the SS uniforms, they looked so much better than the British ones.

Well Hugo Boss was a decent designer

[ljycb]

The one thing I take from this thread is that I'm a hypocrite.

I do boycott a lot of 'art' (mostly music/films/tv as I'm not an art buff) because of the actions of the scumbag creator.

But I also turn a blind eye to some.

I think I'm pretty uniform on bocotting everything where the creator has been involved in child abuse/paedophilia. But then, I would happily listen to some early Michael Jackson songs like Beat It or Billy Jean without a second thought.

I can easily avoid others like R Kelly because I think his music is all shite.

I boycott a lot of musicians or TV/film/entertainment figures because they openly support the Tories or sometimes Brexit. Yet am happy to listen to Morrissey and I actually enjoy watching Clarkson.

But I'm selective. That makes me a bad person, I guess.

That doesn’t make you a bad person at all as far as I’m concerned. It’s not like you’re saying “Michael Jackson’s work with Quincy Jones was great, and therefore I think we should let it all slide” or “Jeremy Clarkson makes for superb television at times, so it makes sense for me to agree with every opinion and applaud every decision he’s made in his life up to now”.

[ianburns252]

It is a banger, but then R. Kelly is a good example of where I start with my red lines. A lot of his songs are sexual in nature - I personally get very grossed out at the thought of listening to him given his usual subject matter and his crimes. And it’s things like him producing the debut album of Aaliyah, who he also married when she was 15 and he was 27, and the name of the album being Age Ain't Nothing but a Number.

Really good point there, especially the work with Aaliyah and then his relationship with her.

Often forgotten too are some troubling lines from artists like Will Smith (Parents don't understand - whole verse about picking up a girl on a street, her moving her hand up his thigh, having her top unbuttoned etc and then she turns out to be 12), Run DMC (more implied than Will Smith but in It's Tricky "I met this little girlie, her hair was kind curly..." certain seems to be indicating she was young), and many others.

You then have the whole pop punk/skate rock scene where there are a million and one songs about teenage angst/dating which were fine when released but the artists are now in their 40s or older and if they are still singing those songs it becomes weird.

[ianburns252]

The one thing I take from this thread is that I'm a hypocrite.

I do boycott a lot of 'art' (mostly music/films/tv as I'm not an art buff) because of the actions of the scumbag creator.

But I also turn a blind eye to some.

I think I'm pretty uniform on bocotting everything where the creator has been involved in child abuse/paedophilia. But then, I would happily listen to some early Michael Jackson songs like Beat It or Billy Jean without a second thought.

I can easily avoid others like R Kelly because I think his music is all shite.

I boycott a lot of musicians or TV/film/entertainment figures because they openly support the Tories or sometimes Brexit. Yet am happy to listen to Morrissey and I actually enjoy watching Clarkson.

But I'm selective. That makes me a bad person, I guess.

I think on your last point around people being pro Tory/Brexit etc and still watching Clarklson - I always got the feeling that he was playing a character (a bit like Al Murray) and was relatively liberal in reality?

I think with Clarkson is that what he produces in terms of media isn't exactly politically charged or trying to change the world - Top Gear/Grand Tour are very light entertainment in the grand scheme so aren't particularly impacted by his views one way or another

[AndyMuller]

I mean, listening to a lot of rappers talking about killing each other and pushing drugs on a daily basis I think you’d have to separate the art from the artist (unless you was doing that to, more power to you).

[KillieRed]

Well Hugo Boss was a decent designer

Apparently his company *only* manufactured them (along with loads of others) and he didn’t design them. Ruins a good story though.

[B0151?]

I don't believe in separating it as you can't get away from the fact that art came from that artist, and perhaps you can get more context of how to process that art.

But at the same time, I don't believe in rewriting history because someone has done something unsavoury. No matter what MJ was a terrific artist, maybe the most popular ever at his peak, a true pop culture phenom. We can't pretend he did not happen or cancel him and his impact and very popular music from existence, not just for MJ but any other artist embroiled in controversy.

So I think everything about the artist can be important context and can't be ignored. But ultimately, I don't think it should determine your enjoyment. There is such a long list of great artists, authors,  people who have made some type of impact, who have done terrible things. At some point you just have to accept humans are very flawed and that to enjoy the art or whatever doesn't mean you have to agree with them as a person. Certainly does not make you a bad person.

[Black Bull Nova]

We all have lines, we are all hypocrites, we are all wrong to a degree but many of us try to have some principles


If we just use a few examples


Jimmy Saville, creepy to watch, evil, no talent
Gary Glitter, makes your foot tap, evil
Jeremy Clarkson, knobhead, occasionally makes you laugh, fairly harmless, stupid bastard
John Peel, funny, warmly thought of by many, "didn't ask for ID", as a 25 year old married a 15 year old, admitted to sexual contact with "an awful lot" of underage girls
Picasso, painted Guernica, acceptable Paedophile, Rolf Harris, less of an artist but a descredited Paedophile
Martin Luther King??? 2027?




Where's your line??

[rob1966]

Charlie Mansons music isn't actually that bad, Guns N' Roses introduced me to it with the hidden track "Look At Your Game Girl" on the Spaghetti Incident covers album, it's something I can listen to, but then you think of what the Manson Family did.

Does it change when someone dies? Is it more acceptable to enjoy someones work when they are no longer a part of the world and can no longer harm others, even when their victims are still alive? Is it OK when the person lived and died so long ago, their victims have also passed away?

You hear music, you look at art, you use inventions and you enjoy them and even once you know what they did, it's hard to suddenly stop liking the art.

Its a tough one

[ljycb]

Charlie Mansons music isn't actually that bad, Guns N' Roses introduced me to it with the hidden track "Look At Your Game Girl" on the Spaghetti Incident covers album, it's something I can listen to, but then you think of what the Manson Family did.

Does it change when someone dies? Is it more acceptable to enjoy someones work when they are no longer a part of the world and can no longer harm others, even when their victims are still alive? Is it OK when the person lived and died so long ago, their victims have also passed away?

You hear music, you look at art, you use inventions and you enjoy them and even once you know what they did, it's hard to suddenly stop liking the art.

Its a tough one

Manson’s “Look at Your Game, Girl” is a song that I really like.

[Corkboy]

Louis CK’s sold-out show at Madison Square Garden proves there’s no such thing as cancel culture

[telekon]

I think Roman Polanski is one of the greatest filmmakers of all time but what he did was deplorable and his Hollywood pals defence of him isn't great either.  It won't stop me watching Repulsion, Rosemary's Baby or The Tenant though.

Regarding cinema in the 60's and 70's, I think it was a bit of a cesspit morally, a lot of its biggest names probably have more than a few skeletons in their closets.

I have the same view of the art of Polanski, Cul-de-sac and Knife in the Water are two of my favourite films of all time. However, not knowing his history when I first viewed them, and comparing them to now, it's not the same.

Similar with The Smiths and Morrissey. I could appreciate them more before it turned out he was rank.

Woody Allen I curiously don't have any issues with his art. Still fantastic.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Picasso, painted Guernica, acceptable Paedophile

Woah. Going to need a source on that one.

Louis CK’s sold-out show at Madison Square Garden proves there’s no such thing as cancel culture

Gotta love brainless takes like this. Yeah sure, all his TV shows were torpedoed, no one would hire him, people were harrassing every venue he played, he was publicly labelled a sex criminal and his career - which was pretty much at its peak - was more or less dead for five years. But apart from that, when is Louis CK going to face any consequences?

[red_lfc_costello]

Does anyone still listen to The Lost Prophets?

exactly what came to mind when i say the thread title!

[ljycb]

Gotta love brainless takes like this. Yeah sure, all his TV shows were torpedoed, no one would hire him, people were harrassing every venue he played, he was publicly labelled a sex criminal and his career - which was pretty much at its peak - was more or less dead for five years. But apart from that, when is Louis CK going to face any consequences?

The article details the consequences.

The outrage was swift and the professional consequences immediate. CK’s upcoming feature film, I Love You, Daddy, was pulled from distribution and co-stars Charlie Day and Chloe Grace Moretz refused to have anything to do with it, the financial impact of which was huge since CK had self-financed the film. The second of two Netflix specials was pulled, several TV series in the pipeline vanished, appearances were cancelled. Louis CK, you’d think, was all washed up. He claimed it cost him $35 million in lost income.

[KillieRed]

I think it was sarcasm

[Black Bull Nova]

Woah. Going to need a source on that one.

Picasso, who had married Olga in 1918, met Marie-Therese in the late 1920s. The controversy is over just what year that was. For a long time the official story was that he encountered her outside the Galeries Lafayette department store in January 1927. That would have meant he was 45 and she was seventeen and a half. This is the version that Marie-Therese herself provided to Life magazine in 1968, four years after her name had become public for the first time in the memoirs of Picasso’s former companion Francoise Gilot. In the 1970s Marie-Therese repeated the same story twice to art historian interviewers. Marie-Therese hanged herself in 1977. One year later her older sister Jeanne came forward with the claim that in fact Marie-Therese had met Picasso not in 1927 but in 1925, when she was still fifteen.




https://www.thoughtco.com/picassos-women-183426


https://edtimes.in/world-famous-artists-who-were-detestable-people-in-reality/

[Corkboy]

Well, the charges against Justin Roiland have been dismissed. 

[Armand9]

we dont seem to worry about decipering the backgrounds of those who gave us medical advances (or if we do and it's nefarious, we seldom refuse those advances), and you can extrapolate that out to every modern convenience seen as beneficial and every engineering feat that has created a better quality of life across all continents and so on.

some, maybe many, of those architects of aspects of modern living we view as beneficial for billions of people across the globe have lived a life, a moment, a belief, a philosophy we find abhorrent. Was Edward Jenner a c*nt? I dont know, i was never taught more than what he accomplished and his basic back story.

It would take seconds to google a list to find out 'nefarious' individuals who are celebrated for something we deem as good or important that has benefitted others greatly. They exist. And most are dead. Easy to piss on the grave of those people. How many here enjoy the Beatles?

You may be doing something right now that in a hundred years is considered abhorrent. Porn maybe? And therefore struck off the 'good' list historically for something that for most people now wouldn't bat an eyelid.

The rabbit hole is deep and dark. And if there isn't something in your own life history that would go under the banner of 'c*nt', i'd guess you're in a very tiny minority.

Art is not different than any of the above in what it has brought to us, i know many who would give up many modern conveniences/advances rather than give up music. It's an important aspect of humanity across all continents.

You make your own choice in the end but if you pull on that thread, fuck knows what you'll be left with. Appreciating something doesn't put the stamp of approval on someone's life history. It is simply appreciating/benefitting from someone who did something who was, typically, more talented than you. But they may have been a c*nt.

[Iska]

Good thread.  Didn’t think I’d have much to add - like most folk on here I find it easy to separate the art from the artist so I’ve no problem enjoying Be My Baby or Rock & Roll Pt II.  I feel slightly guiltier about R Kelly and I wasn’t quite sure why until I noticed this:

Does anyone still listen to The Lost Prophets?

I’ve never knowingly heard them but absolutely no way would I go near one of their records.  So what’s the difference?  It must be that Spector or Glitter were already part of my life – which must be why I feel guilty about R Kelly because he was obviously a wrong ’un from day one, we just didn’t know exactly how or why, so there is something there to feel complicit about.

Never would’ve thought that that’s where I would draw the line but that’s where it seems to be.  No idea if that’s common but I thought that was an interesting reflection.

Dunno how I’d feel if R Kelly put out a new record, I don’t think I could listen in good conscience.  Then again there’s plenty of old Phil Spector songs I don’t know and I doubt I’d be turning off if one of them came on and it was good.

[rafathegaffa83]

Well Hugo Boss was a decent designer

The uniform designers (Walter Heck and Karl Diebitsch) were not affiliated with Hugo Boss's company. Hugo Boss (the company) manufactured the uniforms. Hugo Boss (the businessman) did join the Nazis prior to Hitler coming to power. During Denazification, Boss' early Nazi membership  and financial support resulted in him being fined, having his voting rights stripped and his ability to run a business taken away from him. The penalties were reduced on appeal, but his son-in-law took over the business.

[liverbloke]

we dont seem to worry about decipering the backgrounds of those who gave us medical advances (or if we do and it's nefarious, we seldom refuse those advances), and you can extrapolate that out to every modern convenience seen as beneficial and every engineering feat that has created a better quality of life across all continents and so on.

[snip]

because that ain't art - we're talking about creativity and not science or technology

but yes, if a man (woman/other) discovered a cure for cancer then he'd be a hero - a saviour - a god in some people's eyes

but if it was found out that he was also a paedophile then he would still be hated and shunned for his disgusting perversion

we'd accept the cure but not the man - i would have no problem with that

but art is not life-changing - it's at best an expression and nothing more

if i had a painting in my front room and found out it was done by a rapist i would gladly take it down

to me, it's the same with all other art forms regardless of history - and i have no problem with revisionism

[afc tukrish]

but art is not life-changing - it's at best an expression and nothing more

Entirely possible to argue differently, LB.

For some, art is or has been profoundly life-changing.

[Elliemental]

Does anyone still listen to The Lost Prophets?

I'm late, I know. But I'm answering anyway. I saw Lost Prophets live a couple of times and had their albums. They were never a favourite, exactly, but were definitely one of those bands I'd revisit and listen to again. I had a lot of fun, happy memories associated with certain songs too. But never in a million years could I ever seperate the art from the artist in this case. It's just too sickening.

I found my old LP albums stuffed in a bag at the back of an old storage cupboard when I was preparing to move out of my old apartment and I was too embarrassed to even try and bring them to a local charity shop. In the end, I left them behind.


To answer the broader question, I feel better about separating the art from the artist if the problematic artist is dead and doing no more harm. So yeah, I love reading HP Lovecraft but will continue to avoid JK Rowling now (who sucks anyway, to be honest).

[Black Bull Nova]

I note how Glastobury has quietly dropped the Peel stage, it's and interesting one because he was so well liked when he was alive and I think, as people have learned more about his early years, it's become difficult to reconcile. Many artists start off well then descend, Peel probably went the other way.

Do you accept to the early work of the those who have later crossed a line or do you take on the later work from those who have changed their ways?

Not everyone is a bastard all their lives, although some are.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Genuinely a weird decision to drop Peel's name from the stage the same year Gn'R are headlining. Has Emily Eavis forgot One in a Million, the repeated domestic abuse charges, the statuatory rape arrest, bottling a neighbour, etc? Then again, no one seemed to care about Jay-Z doing Smack my Bitch Up and Big Pimpin' in his headline set, so I guess we've just accepted this is all selective and none of it really matters except performatively.

[Tonyh8su]

Genuinely a weird decision to drop Peel's name from the stage the same year Gn'R are headlining. Has Emily Eavis forgot One in a Million, the repeated domestic abuse charges, the statuatory rape arrest, bottling a neighbour, etc? Then again, no one seemed to care about Jay-Z doing Smack my Bitch Up and Big Pimpin' in his headline set, so I guess we've just accepted this is all selective and none of it really matters except performatively.

In a nutshell

[Boston always unofficial]

Peel stage was announced a few months ago,renaming alot of areas.https://www.nme.com/news/music/glastonbury-renames-john-peel-stage-ahead-of-2023-festival-3407694.

[only6times]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfXcVPImy7U&pp=ygUcY2hyaXMgcm9jayBzZWxlY3RpdmUgb3V0cmFnZQ%3D%3D

[Kashinoda]

Does anyone still listen to The Lost Prophets?

I used to be able to separate it but when I've listened recently I have to turn it off.

Ian Watkins makes Saville look tame, he really was a nutter. That's meth for you though.

[liverbloke]

the title of the thread

it's safe to say that one's stance on this is a always a selfish one

would you be happy enough to offer an argument if it were a piece of music that you didn't like - if it were by the band steps for example?

would you be happy enough to offer an argument if it were a soulless work of forgettable modern art that achieves nothing but jumping on the zeitgeist bandwagon?

try writing down the crimes in black and white with no reference to a work of art or a piece of music

paedophile
abuser
rapist
necrophile

and then follow your own moral compass

[ToneLa]

Genuinely a weird decision to drop Peel's name from the stage the same year Gn'R are headlining. Has Emily Eavis forgot One in a Million, the repeated domestic abuse charges, the statuatory rape arrest, bottling a neighbour, etc? Then again, no one seemed to care about Jay-Z doing Smack my Bitch Up and Big Pimpin' in his headline set, so I guess we've just accepted this is all selective and none of it really matters except performatively.

Peel had very young women

You may have a soft spot for him but he did nonce stuff

A good move - well overdue

[BER]

Coincidentally just listened to this disgusting interview by Tarantino on Polanski.


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/YtwqmenFrR0&amp;t" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/YtwqmenFrR0&amp;t</a>

 

Would make you wonder about his own proclivities.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Coincidentally just listened to this disgusting interview by Tarantino on Polanski.

 

Would make you wonder about his own proclivities.

I would hope it's a given that drugging and raping 13-year olds is wrong and that Polanski should have gone to jail. But how does it relate to his art? Does it make the Pianist, a film made a quarter of a century afterwards about a completely unrelated topic, a lesser movie? What about Chinatown or Rosemary's Baby, films that pre-date the crime?

Peel had very young women

You may have a soft spot for him but he did nonce stuff

A good move - well overdue

I don't have any particular soft spot for Peel, I was pointing out the juxtaposition between this happening in the same year as the festival welcomes a repeated domestic abuser whose lyrics are racist, homophobic and misogynist in the headline slot. As for Peel himself, I understand he got oral sex from a few young teenagers when he was on tour in the mid-60's and later found out one of them was 13. So, he's on the 'wrong' side along with Bowie, Iggy, Led Zep, etc. Are Axl and Gn'R on the 'right' side in your opinion? Where would you draw the line?

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

Coincidentally just listened to this disgusting interview by Tarantino on Polanski.


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/YtwqmenFrR0&amp;t" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/YtwqmenFrR0&amp;t</a>

 

Would make you wonder about his own proclivities.

That is fucking bizarre. Can’t stand him anyway but Christ.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Tarantino is a bell end, really overrated film maker too, Pulp Fiction is good, but I've yet to watch and enjoy any of his other films.

[BER]

I would hope it's a given that drugging and raping 13-year olds is wrong and that Polanski should have gone to jail. But how does it relate to his art? Does it make the Pianist, a film made a quarter of a century afterwards about a completely unrelated topic, a lesser movie? What about Chinatown or Rosemary's Baby, films that pre-date the crime?

Enjoy the art but don't laud the artist. Very easy.

[ToneLa]

mid-60's and later found out one of them was 13. So, he's on the 'wrong' side along with Bowie, Iggy, Led Zep, etc. Are Axl and Gn'R on the 'right' side in your opinion? Where would you draw the line?

They're all nonces mate) +(don't follow GnR at all so a possible exception)
I have enjoyed Led Zep and Stooges but far less the more I learned

I hate Arcade Fire now

I don't act like it - my music collection doesn't suffer for not having Bowie on much (basically never hear him of my own choice)

If I had to draw a less messianic line it would be this:
Peel is himself a brand name
Led Zep was a band

People invoke Peel to invoke the man directly rather than the art

So it's the artist there being venerated.

Plenty of artists out there without some toxic teenager-fucking going on.

But there's a couple lines there. Take your pick. I have women in my life who have sad tales dating to being a teenager - I would be essentially ending these relationships or close if I was all WOAH YEAH JOHN PEEL IS ACE ARCADE FIRE OWNS LOST PROPHETS ARE BOSS

There's mitigating factors. Lennon cleaned up his act. He's not off my love list.

End of the day if I see the name and think 'dirty nonce I would detest in person' then on the Boycott list they know.

John Peel - why not? Massively overrated anyway. Wasn't an artist just a track selectah. I lose nothing by being anti Peel. Far more than I would lose if I was pro Peel

If one is at the point you find your listening tastes seriously affected by writing an artist out of it, my sincere suggestion is listen to more, better.

I exist quite happily without listening to Little Richard. Bowie. Zep. Yknow?

And that's where the line is. Not some Fandom thing of respect the names. Music is there to be heard.

My listening input doesn't include those mentioned and plenty more besides

And yeah I bet EVEN MORE goes unreported but that is a real line for me. If you know bout it and you're fine with it - okay, you do you.

But I am not that guy. I am not seeking to be that guy. My entire life is different from being that guy. And I honestly don't feel I am missing much in terms of music taste -  i don't exist in silence. Not with a tele in my living room, a vinyl collection going back to the 60s and not when I do production on the side.

I don't expect anyone to tow this line but if one were to argue it is unsustainable I merely counter you are not looking hard enough for music without a tainted artist.

Why even bother? For John Peel? What is he to your daily listening except nostalgia?

[Black Bull Nova]

Yes  ^
Peel is an interesting one because of the image many of us grew up with of him as some ageing hippy living happily with his family in Suffolk. Having to revise your view of someone when you thought of it as fixed is a challenge because it can to the heart of those things that went into making who you are, you have to adjust your own personal view of your experience which is harder the more you have invested in your view of the world and some of the people (who you never met but had some form of admiration) it's hard to admist even to yourself your own view of the world was misplaced.
This sort of thing goes on all the time, people find things about their friend, their parents, their relatives that shift the axis of the world, the hard part is adjusting yourself. 'Artists' is the easy bit. I have a range of 'Artists' that I can easily discount now because in essence they were either complete bastards or just not that special in terms of their personality.
There are plenty left for me.

[Boston always unofficial]

So how do y'all boycott John Peel then? Not listen to any of the session stuff? He was of his time,bad things happened there were a shitload of others in rock and or roll doing the same and worse.I remember i went to a GG Allin show,knew roughly what i was in for but holy crap never again,he dead now anyway.So i dunno i listen to some stuff that i shouldn't,stir clear of other stuff.I guess only my own rules apply.