Author Topic: Dani Pacheco  (Read 176787 times)

Offline Sangria

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2012, 12:43:51 pm »
What I can't stand is genius analyses of "Not good enough, get rid", which do not take into account the state of the squad. It's the same kind of genius analysis that saw us get rid of Insua in exchange for Konchesky, and which now sees the current manager return to the concept of attacking FBs, with a current attacking LB who's 5 years older, 20m dearer, costs 50k/wk more, and is not as good at attacking or defending. That kind of genius analysis is at the heart of us throwing away money for worse results, again and again.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline mb1111

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2012, 01:07:22 pm »
What I can't stand is genius analyses of "Not good enough, get rid", which do not take into account the state of the squad. It's the same kind of genius analysis that saw us get rid of Insua in exchange for Konchesky, and which now sees the current manager return to the concept of attacking FBs, with a current attacking LB who's 5 years older, 20m dearer, costs 50k/wk more, and is not as good at attacking or defending. That kind of genius analysis is at the heart of us throwing away money for worse results, again and again.

We know, you've written the same patronising nonsense about 3 or 4 thousand times now. We get it.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 01:59:19 pm »
I think the current Sahin thread is a bloody marvellous example of why using how a player was treated while at loan elsewhere is absolutely no barometer of ability at all. Usual suspects whinging that we've brought in a world class player, and I'm pretty sure they'd all be happier to see him rot on the bench than demonstrate his wares for us. Pretty sure Dani began at Rayo immediately before the coach was replaced, and the new manager didn't give him a look in (probably for the same reasons as those complaining about Sahin). Now he's been tarred with that brush.

Feel sorry for Dani.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 02:00:02 pm »
We know, you've written the same patronising nonsense about 3 or 4 thousand times now. We get it.

Not sure how the guy who sticks up for people randomly saying "not good enough" based on no evidence whatsoever is patronising... seems the other way around to me.

Offline mb1111

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2012, 02:28:04 pm »
Not sure how the guy who sticks up for people randomly saying "not good enough" based on no evidence whatsoever is patronising... seems the other way around to me.

And where's the evidence he's so good? Manager after manager not picking him?

Offline Dirk18Kuyt

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2012, 02:52:21 pm »
And where's the evidence he's so good? Manager after manager not picking him?

That might be to do with manager after manager having their own ideas and players, which doesn't help at all?

Hodgson - Konchesky, Poulsen, Meireles. Cost a lot to get rid of or weakened us, losing money.

Kenny - Carroll, Downing, Adam - Cost a fair bit, never worked out, lost a lot of money.

Rodgers - Trying to get rid of Carroll, Downing, Adam for much less than we paid, losing more money.

Offline mb1111

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2012, 03:00:51 pm »
That might be to do with manager after manager having their own ideas and players, which doesn't help at all?

Yep, and none deem this player good enough to get game time for us. Strange, one manager can get it wrong, two maybe but Rodgers, Hodgson, Kenny, Rafa (I know i'll get excuses that he was under too much pressure to play him, though it didnt stop him giving Insua and Ngog loads of games) and the Vallecano manager? All 5 are wrong and RAWK is right? I'm struggling to believe it.

I'll guess we'll see just how good he is in the next week or so, given he's seemingly not wanted here you've got to think he'll be available for a small fee which will surely see 10s and 10s of big European clubs vying to snap up the bargain.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2012, 03:02:06 pm »
I wonder what's more painful, listening to me making the same point over and over again, or watching us make the same mistakes over and over again. Juan Loco moaned about me whining yet again about Insua, and I answered that the point wasn't so much about Insua who's gone, but about Pacheco who's still here. And the point wasn't even about Pacheco specifically, but the idiotic shortsightedness of the "not good enough, get rid" crowd.

If only we'd gone with the direction I described a couple of years ago, eh. We could hardly have done any worse, and we'd have saved 50m+. And these ideas weren't even works of genius, but common sense ones based on mistakes we'd made in the past, but which we seem determined to repeat again and again.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2012, 03:22:49 pm »
Agree with sangria. With Insua, we were determined to get him out. That was it. The cost was 3M and a couple of youngsters, so we could get an old LB. That was more an attempt to fuck things up than it was a good intention to improve us.

If we take Pacheco, the only thing the club has indicated is that we're not ready to play him. We just don't dare to tell it to anyone. It's like we're hoping Pacheco will say "fuck it", so it's his choice to leave. Not ours. Not unlike how we treated Kuyt and Maxi. Last season's loan within a loan with an option to buy (wasn't that the deal?) was hardly a great vote of confidence. If we don't want him, we should have no hesitation to sell. If we want him, he's old enough to be involved in the squad. We just seem to avoid both so we can blame the player for speaking out. So we have an official reason to get rid.

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2012, 05:22:19 pm »
I agree with Sangria about Insua as well. There's a difference however in that we saw a good deal of Insua in the first team and, as yet, very little of Pacheco.

What happened to Insua was astonishing. Yes he made mistakes. He was young and playing in a team that had been drained of confidence by the Alonso departure. He got tired too because he was a workhorse and he was never rested. But there was lots of evidence to suggest he was going to be a very good and very modern attacking full back. Then the football punditocracy (led by Hansen of all people) decided that the young Argie was to blame for Liverpool's anti-climactic season. They picked on its youngest  and most vulnerable member. He was fingered for all sorts of stuff that simply wasn't his fault. Weak minds at Anfield started to join in the baiting (as they had done with Lucas). The weakest of the lot was Purslow who, in his brief moment of power, got rid of him.

I hope Pacheco gets a chance. But I'm sort of reconciled now to the fact that he never will. If it were going to happen it probably would have happened two seasons ago. Shame.   
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2012, 06:13:37 pm »
I agree with Sangria about Insua as well. There's a difference however in that we saw a good deal of Insua in the first team and, as yet, very little of Pacheco.

What happened to Insua was astonishing. Yes he made mistakes. He was young and playing in a team that had been drained of confidence by the Alonso departure. He got tired too because he was a workhorse and he was never rested. But there was lots of evidence to suggest he was going to be a very good and very modern attacking full back. Then the football punditocracy (led by Hansen of all people) decided that the young Argie was to blame for Liverpool's anti-climactic season. They picked on its youngest  and most vulnerable member. He was fingered for all sorts of stuff that simply wasn't his fault. Weak minds at Anfield started to join in the baiting (as they had done with Lucas). The weakest of the lot was Purslow who, in his brief moment of power, got rid of him.

I hope Pacheco gets a chance. But I'm sort of reconciled now to the fact that he never will. If it were going to happen it probably would have happened two seasons ago. Shame.   

I'm not talking about the players specifically though, but about the need to judge a player as good enough or not in the context of the squad. If you have some bloody good players ahead of you, then the bar for "good enough" can be set somewhat higher as the club can afford to lose the likes of you without immediate disaster. However, when the football geniuses here said Insua was "not good enough, get rid", he was the only senior LB we had at the club. Apparently football tactics have changed so much in recent times that LBs are no longer necessary. And now, with those exact words being used, Pacheco is "not good enough, get rid" while the likes of Cole and Downing are being picked ahead of him. Just as the decision to get rid of Insua because he wasn't good enough has ended with us playing an LB who's 5 years older, 20m dearer, costs 50k/wk more, and is inferior offensively and defensively in every way, so the decision to get rid of a young forward without even looking at what we have in the squad will probably end up with us paying a lot of money in the future just to get back to where we originally were.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Shanklygates

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2012, 06:52:33 pm »
Sadly I understand he's been told to find another club - hopefully not in England as I think he'll do well if he gets a run of games somewhere. Was hoping he'd make it with us but he's considered too "nice" for the Prem League apparently. Hope I'm wrong but according to Tony Barrett...
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Offline Lastrador

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2012, 08:20:21 pm »
And where's the evidence he's so good? Manager after manager not picking him?
You know that the lad is 21 don't you? How old do you think he was when Rafa was here? Or Hodgson? How can you assume that neither rates him because he wasn't a regular when he was a fucking teenager?

Offline mb1111

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2012, 08:23:24 pm »
You know that the lad is 21 don't you? How old do you think he was when Rafa was here? Or Hodgson? How can you assume that neither rates him because he wasn't a regular when he was a fucking teenager?

As I said, always an excuse. And I didnt say he had to be a regular.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2012, 08:24:35 pm »
You know that the lad is 21 don't you? How old do you think he was when Rafa was here? Or Hodgson? How can you assume that neither rates him because he wasn't a regular when he was a fucking teenager?
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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2012, 08:33:40 pm »
That might be to do with manager after manager having their own ideas and players, which doesn't help at all?

Hodgson - Konchesky, Poulsen, Meireles. Cost a lot to get rid of or weakened us, losing money.

Kenny - Carroll, Downing, Adam - Cost a fair bit, never worked out, lost a lot of money.

Rodgers - Trying to get rid of Carroll, Downing, Adam for much less than we paid, losing more money.

Kenny did worse than Hodgson in the transfer market.

*Runs off quickly*
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Offline liammavers89

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2012, 11:15:56 pm »
I really though Pacheco would take off under Rodgers, in pre season he looked hungry to show what he was capable of doing. Sadly though i think he will venture back to Spain and within 2-3 years will probably be a star in la liga. ( sigh )
We should just throw Doni in the " false number 9 position " fuck it !

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2012, 11:31:27 pm »
Pacheco is my guilty pleasure - I just want him to succeed so much, but I can't see that happening here to be honest. I'm not itk or anything or even live in Liverpool but mates at work have said the general concensus around the club is he simply is too nice and soft for the EPL. I don't get it personally, he just seems like everything Rodgers would want in a player - 1 touch passer, great vision, good dribbler, great work rate.

Must have a poster of Fungus in his locker or something, I can't fathom why he isn't given his chance personally.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2012, 12:57:18 am »
Pacheco is my guilty pleasure - I just want him to succeed so much, but I can't see that happening here to be honest. I'm not itk or anything or even live in Liverpool but mates at work have said the general concensus around the club is he simply is too nice and soft for the EPL. I don't get it personally, he just seems like everything Rodgers would want in a player - 1 touch passer, great vision, good dribbler, great work rate.

Must have a poster of Fungus in his locker or something, I can't fathom why he isn't given his chance personally.

Not good enough, get rid. As we continue to play the likes of Cole and Downing. It's not as though I've ever claimed that Pacheco is a world beater. My argument has always been that, if we are to settle for averageness, we might as well save money in doing so, rather than shell out huge amounts for the same no return.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline kred

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2012, 03:16:17 am »
Not good enough, get rid. As we continue to play the likes of Cole and Downing. It's not as though I've ever claimed that Pacheco is a world beater. My argument has always been that, if we are to settle for averageness, we might as well save money in doing so, rather than shell out huge amounts for the same no return.

Some people still think these 2 will come good.  And Downing at 28 should be given time to develop.  Liverpool sucks at bringing through youngsters to the 1st team.  That's why we buy youngsters from other clubs 1st team and we play them immediately since they are experienced.   

Offline Kochevnik

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2012, 06:42:16 am »
Kenny did worse than Hodgson in the transfer market.

*Runs off quickly*

I see the point you're trying to make there, that we all love Kenny so much that we're blind to his faults, but I think you've engaged in a bit of hyperbole. 

Paying 35 million for Carroll was stupid, yes, but there were a lot of mitigating factors with new owners who had just sold a fan favourite (at the time) for huge money, and it was the last day of the window.  That was Kenny's worst buy, by far, and it can't compare to the stupidity of the Konchesky deal.  To give away two promising youngsters, who were certain to be worth a million or two each, at a minimum, in a couple of years, and then to add on top 5 million for a player who a blind man could see was never good enough for a top half club - it was borderline insanity.

On consideration it's closer than I would have thought at first, but still, Hodgson was worse.
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Offline vele-srbin

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2012, 07:11:48 am »
Kacanikolic wasn't ever given a sniff at first team football and he looks awesome at Fulham. Just a matter of giving players that chance, which we haven't done that well over the years.

Offline liverpoolfan1

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2012, 07:18:52 am »
I see the point you're trying to make there, that we all love Kenny so much that we're blind to his faults, but I think you've engaged in a bit of hyperbole. 

Paying 35 million for Carroll was stupid, yes, but there were a lot of mitigating factors with new owners who had just sold a fan favourite (at the time) for huge money, and it was the last day of the window.  That was Kenny's worst buy, by far, and it can't compare to the stupidity of the Konchesky deal.  To give away two promising youngsters, who were certain to be worth a million or two each, at a minimum, in a couple of years, and then to add on top 5 million for a player who a blind man could see was never good enough for a top half club - it was borderline insanity.

On consideration it's closer than I would have thought at first, but still, Hodgson was worse.

There is not a big enough mitigating factor to literally blow 35 million pounds (an LFC transfer record no less and the highest ever fee paid for a British player) on an average player who had had 6 good months at the top level and was injured at the time. That money could have set us up for a while if we had managed to spend it much more wisely in the summer (and I'm sure the majority of fans would have more than understood- certainly even at the time when the Carroll signing was announced I was pissed off that we as a club had decided to waste a large chunk of the 50m we got from Torres on an unproven player).

And that's not even going into the signings of Downing and Adam.
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Offline liverpoolfan1

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2012, 07:20:30 am »
Kacanikolic wasn't ever given a sniff at first team football and he looks awesome at Fulham. Just a matter of giving players that chance, which we haven't done that well over the years.

Exactly mate. I would rather have Cole over Pacheco any day of the week. And yet even this season it seems Cole is going to get preferential treatment over a youngster whose career we may well have wrecked. And it's Cole who picks up the 90k/week for doing absolutely shit all.
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2012, 10:44:41 am »
There is not a big enough mitigating factor to literally blow 35 million pounds (an LFC transfer record no less and the highest ever fee paid for a British player) on an average player who had had 6 good months at the top level and was injured at the time. That money could have set us up for a while if we had managed to spend it much more wisely in the summer (and I'm sure the majority of fans would have more than understood- certainly even at the time when the Carroll signing was announced I was pissed off that we as a club had decided to waste a large chunk of the 50m we got from Torres on an unproven player).

And that's not even going into the signings of Downing and Adam.

I don't think you understood my point.

My point was not to defend Kenny for buying Carroll; it was a very poor decision indeed.  I was just trying to say that at least it didn't look like United had paid the manager to come in and sabotage the club from the inside, which is the only explanation I can come up with for why someone would sanction paying 5 million plus Kacaniklic and Dalla Valle for Paul Konchesky.  One is a case of naivete, panic and bad judgment; the other is pure insane destructiveness.
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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2012, 10:49:32 am »
Not good enough, get rid. As we continue to play the likes of Cole and Downing. It's not as though I've ever claimed that Pacheco is a world beater. My argument has always been that, if we are to settle for averageness, we might as well save money in doing so, rather than shell out huge amounts for the same no return.

100% agree, he is on what 5-10% of what those 2 earn per week? Is home grown and is obviously well liked around the club. Criminal to not use him as a squad member and continue to indulge the likes of Downing/Cole

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2012, 10:59:22 am »
I agree with Sangria about Insua as well. There's a difference however in that we saw a good deal of Insua in the first team and, as yet, very little of Pacheco.

What happened to Insua was astonishing. Yes he made mistakes. He was young and playing in a team that had been drained of confidence by the Alonso departure. He got tired too because he was a workhorse and he was never rested. But there was lots of evidence to suggest he was going to be a very good and very modern attacking full back. Then the football punditocracy (led by Hansen of all people) decided that the young Argie was to blame for Liverpool's anti-climactic season. They picked on its youngest  and most vulnerable member. He was fingered for all sorts of stuff that simply wasn't his fault. Weak minds at Anfield started to join in the baiting (as they had done with Lucas). The weakest of the lot was Purslow who, in his brief moment of power, got rid of him.

I hope Pacheco gets a chance. But I'm sort of reconciled now to the fact that he never will. If it were going to happen it probably would have happened two seasons ago. Shame.

Insua was a scapegoat pure and simple for the defence going to pot in 09/10. Also the wrong nationality at the wrong time. "We need to be more English" was the new philosophy so he was replaced with Paul Konchesky.

Pacheco's been ruined by us.
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Offline Juan

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2012, 09:37:05 am »
Pacheco tweeted this: "So, Thursday the 30th. Good night from the UK. There might be little time left."

Be ready to say to him good bye...

Offline barneystuta

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2012, 10:00:39 am »
Two ways you can look at this really.

1 - That he isn't good enough for Liverpool at the moment. Barely featured under 3 Liverpool managers (Rafa, Hodgson, and Dalglish). Had a relatively successful loan spell at Norwich, but that was only 3 starts. And towards the key end to the season, he lost his place in the side. Then, the infamous Inception Loan within a Loan. Neither club fancied him, and he only made 1 start for Rayo in the whole season. And that was in the cup.

2 - That he hasn't been given a chance. Etc etc.

We all got excited by him in the youth teams, the reserves, and at youth international level. But he has never really progressed and kicked on (for whatever reason).

I, like most in here I am sure, would welcome him moving on, and getting some game time. If that means he needs to drop a division, or go to a less glamorous club, then so be it. He needs games to prove his ability.

A player like Leto, until his injury earlier this year, is forging himself a decent career in Greece. Paletta went back to his homeland for a few seasons, but is now in Serie A with Parma. San Jose went back on loan to Bilbao, and earned himself a permanent move there after good season. Barragan left to join Deportivo, and is now at Valencia (via Valladoid). I am sure there is more.

If he is good enough, he needs to prove us that we were wrong to let him go. I hope he does (and we have some sort of buy back of course), because he has a lot of talent. But that talent, for whatever reason, hasn't manifested itself in to a top quality player. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but he needs games.


Offline Blarf

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2012, 10:09:37 am »
This three of four managers didn't rate him thing... Everyone knows that Roy was a disaster and Kenny wasn't success either so how can you use their opinions as a proof!?

But anyway, he seems to be heading out of Liverpool which is a shame. Not because he is a world beater but because he never really got the chance to prove him. I really can't understand our way when it comes down to handling youngsters. It seems to me that even if you perform brilliantly in the reserves (minimum for first team players) it still isn't enough to get a chance in the first team.

Offline conman

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2012, 10:10:52 am »
all the best Dani, i hope you get to kick start your career and prove the doubters wrong.

go on lad. all the best.

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2012, 10:10:56 am »
This three of four managers didn't rate him thing... Everyone knows that Roy was a disaster and Kenny wasn't success either so how can you use their opinions as a proof!?

But anyway, he seems to be heading out of Liverpool which is a shame. Not because he is a world beater but because he never really got the chance to prove him. I really can't understand our way when it comes down to handling youngsters. It seems to me that even if you perform brilliantly in the reserves (minimum for first team players) it still isn't enough to get a chance in the first team.

Except for Sterling/Kelly/Robinson though? Maybe the Pacheco and now Suso have attitude problems? Suso seems like he thinks he has made it - that sort of thing doesn't go down well.

Offline aggerdid

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2012, 10:20:38 am »
We've ruined this poor lads career. Simple as that. Hope he gets it back on somewhere else. Him not making it is one of footballs many mysteries. Like lets say he played as many games as downing last season for example he would have done better. Hope pacheco goes to a good spanish team and does well proving a lot of people wrong
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Offline T.Mills

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2012, 10:23:04 am »
Except for Sterling/Kelly/Robinson though? Maybe the Pacheco and now Suso have attitude problems? Suso seems like he thinks he has made it - that sort of thing doesn't go down well.

Based on what?

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2012, 10:24:20 am »
Right now, there's space in the squad for Pacheco. He'd be 4th pick up front. So right now, we'd be best off keeping him. What we should do is loan him out to a PL/Championship side, where he's guaranteed to play more or less every week. Then we bring him back, let him play for us and see where it takes us. We could do the same with Morgan.

If we sign another striker, it will be tough for him to get to play. But as it is right now, I see no real reason to sell Pacheco. We might as well give him a chance. 

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2012, 10:25:12 am »
I sincerely hope the lad does well wherever he goes.
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Offline KirkVanHouten

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2012, 10:29:01 am »
Based on what?

Based on his passport I think.

Offline Warks Moustache

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2012, 10:31:52 am »
Shame he never got a chance with us, good luck Dani!

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2012, 10:33:09 am »
I really can't understand our way when it comes down to handling youngsters. It seems to me that even if you perform brilliantly in the reserves (minimum for first team players) it still isn't enough to get a chance in the first team.

The worst part with that is that we have non-performing first team players who get a free ride. They don't have to prove anything, but the kids have to be outstanding, they need to have the right mentality and then maybe, maybe... We should at least expect the first team players to show that mentality too. I'd much rather have the kind of energy we saw from Sterling vs City over the alibi performances we regularly get from for example Downing and Cole. I bet Pacheco wouldn't be worse than them. We have everything to gain and very little to lose if we give him a try.

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Offline hyypia04

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Re: Dani Pacheco
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2012, 10:40:15 am »
We've ruined this poor lads career. Simple as that.

I think that's a bit over dramatic mate. He came over here as a young lad and we've given him a good football education and the experience of living in a different country. Ok, it hasn't worked out, but he's 21 years old.

Hopefully he'll take the positive aspects of what he's learned here to another club where he'll get some games and kick on to fulfill the potential he's always shown.

Good luck to him.
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