Topic: Is Google/WhatsApp/Facebook listening to our conversations for targeted ads?

[JongWK]

A reminder...

California Wiretapping Law

California's wiretapping law is a "two-party consent" law. California makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code § 632. The statute applies to "confidential communications" -- i.e., conversations in which one of the parties has an objectively reasonable expectation that no one is listening in or overhearing the conversation. See Flanagan v. Flanagan, 41 P.3d 575, 576-77, 578-82 (Cal. 2002).  A California appellate court has ruled that this statute applies to the use of hidden video cameras to record conversations as well. See California v. Gibbons, 215 Cal. App. 3d 1204 (Cal Ct. App. 1989).

If you are recording someone without their knowledge in a public or semi-public place like a street or restaurant, the person whom you're recording may or may not have "an objectively reasonable expectation that no one is listening in or overhearing the conversation," and the reasonableness of the expectation would depend on the particular factual circumstances.  Therefore, you cannot necessarily assume that you are in the clear simply because you are in a public place. 

If you are operating in California, you should always get the consent of all parties before recording any conversation that common sense tells you might be "private" or "confidential." In addition to subjecting you to criminal prosecution, violating the California wiretapping law can expose you to a civil lawsuit for damages by an injured party. See Cal. Penal Code § 637.2.

[MichaelA]

I use Ad Blocker in Chrome, but on the Guardian website I get served targeted ads by Taboola. I've probably seen 12/15 different adverts today, and can see why 10/12 of them were served to me, even if one of them in particular would suggest that Google have accessed gmail, calendar and keep to target an advert for one very specific product to me. Two adverts seem irrelevant, but they are everyday services that would advertise in other media. I have had three adverts in the last 2 hours for specific items that I have never searched or browsed, but I have mentioned in conversations in the past 24 hours. One of them is a fairly generic product, but I don't recall being served with that advert before. I do think that's weird, to be honest.

The eavesdropping law is only relevant if the user has withheld authority. Google have T&C's and Privacy Policies that are specific to different services, and are relatively vague about monitoring. for instance, their Privacy Policy does include 'other sensors' in the list of things you are authorising when you use their services.The give the example of an accelerometer to provide information on travel for mapping, but a microphone is a sensor too.

[AJ]

The thing I find most surprising about this whole thread is that people actually pay attention to adverts. Fucking hell. Couldn't tell you what adverts I see because I never pay them a split-second's attention.

[Skidder.]

The thing I find most surprising about this whole thread is that people actually pay attention to adverts. Fucking hell. Couldn't tell you what adverts I see because I never pay them a split-second's attention.

In my personal opinion - the fact that this is entirely possible, regardless of law, is unnerving. It isn't the ads that bother me (they just piss me off), it is the technology.

 

[oojason]

In my personal opinion - the fact that this is entirely possible, regardless of law, is unnerving. It isn't the ads that bother me (they just piss me off), it is the technology.
 

Whilst you have a camera, microphone and network connection then you at risk - a minimal risk at that for many of us, but still...

Technology has been used not only for govt/state surveillance - but for corporate espionage, blackmail, extortion, or just some geek with a grudge, or a pervert... for example the story of a couple of years back when a US high school was remotely turning the cameras on in their laptops and taking snapshots - in their students own property/bedrooms - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District

Now considering we were all quite surprised to find that various Govts had been spying on their own people (or getting friendly govts to do the spying to bypass privacy laws / human rights) - especially on the storing of mass communication (emails, texts, calls etc) - whether 'only metadata' or not - it is a cause for concern...


adverts? personal data collecting etc? voice search devices and software like siri, cortana, echo, google now etc? all useful services for people that want them - yet it's the lack of transparency on what these companies are exactly doing with the information they compile is of concern (and who they are sharing it with and selling it to - before we even get into govt requests and rogue employees who sell info for profit) - and you can include who facebook, twitter, other social media - and a ton of email providers and search engines in that too...

Though most people do seem to just accept it - worryingly....


(and removes tin foil hat and leaves the faraday cage in the underground car park, turning the cctv cameras back on on the way out...)

[Skidder.]

Whilst you have a camera, microphone and network connection then you at risk - a minimal risk at that for many of us, but still...

Technology has been used not only for govt/state surveillance - but for corporate espionage, blackmail, extortion, or just some geek with a grudge, or a pervert... for example the story of a couple of years back when a US high school was remotely turning the cameras on in their laptops and taking snapshots - in their students own property/bedrooms - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District

Now considering we were all quite surprised to find that various Govts had been spying on their own people (or getting friendly govts to do the spying to bypass privacy laws / human rights) - especially on the storing of mass communication (emails, texts, calls etc) - whether 'only metadata' or not - it is a cause for concern...


adverts? personal data collecting etc? voice search devices and software like siri, cortana, echo, google now etc? all useful services for people that want them - yet it's the lack of transparency on what these companies are exactly doing with the information they compile is of concern (and who they are sharing it with and selling it to - before we even get into govt requests and rogue employees who sell info for profit) - and you can include who facebook, twitter, other social media - and a ton of email providers and search engines in that too...

Though most people do seem to just accept it - worryingly....


(and removes tin foil hat and leaves the faraday cage in the underground car park, turning the cctv cameras back on on the way out...)

Not tin foil at all - I think you're right on the money.

[oojason]

Not tin foil at all - I think you're right on the money.

My tin foil hat is mainly a fashion choice mate

The faraday cage in the underground car park at the airport is the necessity! Well, it feels that way after a client at work wanted to go back to wired keyboards after reading an article on how unsafe wireless keyboards were. He'd probably have a stronger point if he didn't just play solitaire on his pc most of the day...

[cdav]

Your battery status is being used to track you online
Battery status indicators are being used to track devices, say researchers from Princeton University – meaning warnings of privacy exposure have come to pass

A little-known web standard that lets site owners tell how much battery life a mobile device has left has been found to enable tracking online, a year after privacy researchers warned that it had the potential to do just that.

The battery status API was introduced in HTML5, the fifth version of the code used to lay out the majority of the web, and had already shipped in Firefox, Opera and Chrome by August 2015. It allows site owners to see the percentage of battery life left in a device, as well as the time it will take to discharge or the time it will take to charge, if connected to a power source.

Intended to allow site owners to serve low-power versions of sites and web apps to users with little battery capacity left, soon after it was introduced, privacy researchers pointed out that it could also be used to spy on users. The combination of battery life as a percentage and battery life in seconds provides offers 14m combinations, providing a pseudo-unique identifier for each device.

Suppose a user loaded their church website in their version of Firefox, and then opened up the website for a satanic cult using a Chrome browser in private browsing mode piped through a secure VPN. Ordinarily, the two connections should be very difficult to associate with one another, but an advert that was loaded on both pages at once would be able to tell that the two devices were almost certainly the same, with just a one in 14m chance of being mistaken.

Now, two security researchers from Princeton University have shown that the battery status indicator really is being used in the wild to track users. By running a specially modified browser, Steve Engelhard and Arvind Narayanan found two tracking scripts that used the API to “fingerprint” a specific device, allowing them to continuously identify it across multiple contexts.

The research was highlighted by Lukasz Olejnik, one of the four researchers who first called attention to the potential issues with the battery status API in 2015. Although Olejnik achieved some success following his warning, with the body in charge of the web’s standards thanking his group for the privacy analysis, the API still has the potential for misuse. And while it is only tracking scripts using it now, Olejnik warns that unscrupulous actors could do more.

“Some companies may be analysing the possibility of monetising the access to battery levels,” he writes. “When battery is running low, people might be prone to some – otherwise different – decisions. In such circumstances, users will agree to pay more for a service.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/02/battery-status-indicators-tracking-online

Just goes to show how little, well meaning API's can be exploited to identify and target devices.

[Elmo!]

Suppose a user loaded their church website in their version of Firefox, and then opened up the website for a satanic cult using a Chrome browser in private browsing mode piped through a secure VPN. Ordinarily, the two connections should be very difficult to associate with one another, but an advert that was loaded on both pages at once would be able to tell that the two devices were almost certainly the same, with just a one in 14m chance of being mistaken.

Not sure if i'm being stupid here but I think they've got their maths wrong. There are orders of magnitude more than 14m devices connected to the internet at any point, so at any one point there will likely be a lot of different devices with the same combination of battery life as a percentage and battery life in seconds. So rather than being able to tell with 'near certainty' if two matching combinations are the same device, it will be more of a best guess - rather defeating the point.

[Craig S]

Not sure if i'm being stupid here but I think they've got their maths wrong. There are orders of magnitude more than 14m devices connected to the internet at any point, so at any one point there will likely be a lot of different devices with the same combination of battery life as a percentage and battery life in seconds. So rather than being able to tell with 'near certainty' if two matching combinations are the same device, it will be more of a best guess - rather defeating the point.

I think you are right. There are 14m combinations of power & charge time. But you have no upper limit on number of devices. You would only be able to check if the fingerprint was the same for a very short period as, the time to charge and power remaining % would be constantly changing, and giving you a different "fingerprint". I don't see you could track someone online with it.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

I was talking about Facebook/Google listening in on conversations with my family back in July, and I've just had a message from my sister (not the handbag incident sister) saying, 'Facebook is definitely listening.'

Her Husband said to her last night, 'Her (their daughter) flight is delayed for 3 hours - she has just sent me a text.' And my sister replied, 'Oh shit. I wonder will they be entitled to compensation?' She said within two minutes, they both had the same article at the top of their newsfeed 'Flight Delayed? Was it over 3 hours in the last 6 years? Claim now per passenger!' And took screenshots.

My other niece, in the same house, experienced the same thing when her Dad told her that her sister's flight was delayed late last night.

[Graeme]

I've had shit loads of these on Facebook in the last few weeks and haven't discussed flights or delays with anybody.

It's August, probably the busiest month of the year for flights and holidays so if you are a company specialising in representing those who have suffered flight delays then this would be the month to promote your services.

[CraigDS]

Plus those using FB ads will target people who have liked/searched/posted various things relating to going on holiday in their recent past.

[Elmo!]

This wouldn't apply to Facebook, but if you use Gmail, or have any email account set up on an Android phone, Google almost certainly knows exactly what flights you are on if they were booked with your email address, so any site using Google Ads could target you on them.

[CraigDS]

This wouldn't apply to Facebook, but if you use Gmail, or have any email account set up on an Android phone, Google almost certainly knows exactly what flights you are on if they were booked with your email address, so any site using Google Ads could target you on them.

I'd be surprised if Google has any access to data for email accounts outside of Gmail, installed on an Android device or not.

[Elmo!]

I'd be surprised if Google has any access to data for email accounts outside of Gmail, installed on an Android device or not.

They do. Whenever I get flights for work, they are done through my work address which isn't Gmail, and I get alerts on my phone from Google reminding me my flight details, even if I haven't added the flights to my calendar.

It may only be if you use the Gmail app on Android and not a 3rd party app.

[CraigDS]

They do. Whenever I get flights for work, they are done through my work address which isn't Gmail, and I get alerts on my phone from Google reminding me my flight details, even if I haven't added the flights to my calendar.

It may only be if you use the Gmail app on Android and not a 3rd party app.

Ah, that's more what I meant with regards to using their Gmail app.

[Umbarto]

Was at a friend's night before last playing some music.  We took a break and somehow got on the discussion of World of Warcraft for about 15 minutes.  Wasn't on his wifi, didn't search for it, just conversated about the new expansion.

On an archery forum of all places yesterday morning from home and the targeted ads that came up were all for the new expansion of World of Warcraft.  I mean really?  Dafuq is that about?  I don't even play WoW.

Not the first time this has happened, just the most recent and I recalled seeing this thread.

[DHKopper]

Plenty of archers in WOW.

[Umbarto]

I suppose there is a valid reason I should be getting flight and hotel adverts on news sites as well after discussing taking holiday in Los Angeles with the missus... all for the LA area.

Just odd.

[oojason]

Ad blocker? Get the Zuck out! Facebook to force feed you web ads, whether you like it or not...

(These silos of your personal information don't run themselves for free, folks)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/09/facebook_ad_blockers/


^ the comments section, as ever, is your real friend

[Shambles.....with a capital S!]

Plus those using FB ads will target people who have liked/searched/posted various things relating to going on holiday in their recent past.

Exactly. The biggest reason for the targeted add would have been that the person in question would have searched, viewed or clicked on things related to a holiday or break away etc. The cookie info is extremely easy to get and not in relation to FB listening to calls etc.

[terrible suits]

Ah, that's more what I meant with regards to using their Gmail app.

Score another point for the BlackBerry Hub! 

Plenty of archers in WOW.

With their victims becoming guards in Skyrim. 

[Skidder.]

Okay, so back with another story - unrelated to Google, but still weird. Started in a new office this week - new building, totally new people... etc...

I don't have anyone in the office attached to any of my social media and nothing. I don't have my Facebook updated with any new jobs or positions and I haven't liked anything to do with my new role. A completely new start.

So I was asked to help out in a new/specific department - I won't mention the department, but it is a fairly new department, but has a very distinctive name that anyone could regonise, but isn't a general department. (If that makes sense).

Anyhow, been there a week - as is, I've met quite a few new people and people have been asking me what department I'm in. Over the past few days, I get chatting about this new department that I'm in with friends and such. I must have mentioned the department a good few times now and it is a single word.

Logs into Facebook today scrolls down and the suggested friends - the first suggestion was the Facebook site of the actual department. The departments own Facebook profile.

For the life of me - I cannot fathom how this could be a coincidence. Please, if anyone wishes to question me or offer another train of thought, please do so, because as soon as I saw it, I felt a little bit sick.

[Elmo!]

Okay, so back with another story - unrelated to Google, but still weird. Started in a new office this week - new building, totally new people... etc...
I don't have anyone in the office attached to any of my social media and nothing. I don't have my Facebook updated with any new jobs or positions and I haven't liked anything to do with my new role. A completely new start.

So I was asked to help out in a new/specific department - I won't mention the department, but it is a fairly new department, but has a very distinctive name that anyone could regonise, but isn't a general department. (If that makes sense).

Anyhow, been there a week - as is, I've met quite a few new people and people have been asking me what department I'm in. Over the past few days, I get chatting about this new department that I'm in with friends and such. I must have mentioned the department a good few times now and it is a single word.

Logs into Facebook today scrolls down and the suggested friends - the first suggestion was the Facebook site of the actual department. The departments own Facebook profile.

For the life of me - I cannot fathom how this could be a coincidence. Please, if anyone wishes to question me or offer another train of thought, please do so, because as soon as I saw it, I felt a little bit sick.

My guess would be that Facebook has tracked your location via the app and seen that you have been in the same location as other people that work in said department (and have added it to their FB profile), and their algorithm has calculated you probably work there.

I've seen similar things where someone who is a friend of a friend on FB but doesn't appear as a suggested friend, suddenly starts doing so after being in the same location as them.

[Craig S]

My guess would be that Facebook has tracked your location via the app and seen that you have been in the same location as other people that work in said department (and have added it to their FB profile), and their algorithm has calculated you probably work there.

I've seen similar things where someone who is a friend of a friend on FB but doesn't appear as a suggested friend, suddenly starts doing so after being in the same location as them.

Google does this too. If you go into maps and my contributions it will ask for reviews of the places you have been. It includes pubs, restaurants, fast food, shops, football stadiums and businesses. It asked me for a review of a client after going to their head office for a meeting.

[CraigDS]

Facebook has already confirmed it uses location data in some of it's algorithms, such as who to suggest you may know but aren't friends with yet.

So I'd hazard a guess it's seen where you've logged in (not sure if you've been on FB whilst in that location, or received any notifications to the app), looked at others who have done so from this location, seen what they have down as their work and then suggested that page.

[Skidder.]

Have to admit, that thought did cross my mind.

Is this possible even when you have location disabled on your phone though? - I always have location disabled and never have it on. Furthermore, I don't have access to the Hospital's Wifi - and, I don't have any Data.

I just find it very, very, very odd fellas. Very odd indeed. I'm reminded of that shit 90s film with Will Smith - the phone, must have a number of different elements to track your location.

I think perhaps I am looking out for this (as some other poster implied), perhaps I'm fitting it all in - whether it is a self-fulfilling prophecy or not, it is still... still very weird.

[CraigDS]

Have to admit, that thought did cross my mind.

Is this possible even when you have location disabled on your phone though? - I always have location disabled and never have it on. Furthermore, I don't have access to the Hospital's Wifi - and, I don't have any Data.

I just find it very, very, very odd fellas. Very odd indeed. I'm reminded of that shit 90s film with Will Smith - the phone, must have a number of different elements to track your location.

So you have no access to the net from your phone outside of your home WIFI, or other WIFI, just not at your place of work?

They will certainly be able to use other methods than your location data though.

I think perhaps I am looking out for this (as some other poster implied), perhaps I'm fitting it all in - whether it is a self-fulfilling prophecy or not, it is still... still very weird.

I imagine this is the case. I notice very targeted ads for myself, but if I think about them individually there is normally always some sort of connection I can make.

You have to remember that for the likes of Google (who run most of the adverts you'll see online) and Facebook (if you're on there) get most of their revenue from ad sales, and have invested billions upon billions in developing algorithms and methods to enable companies to target ads very specifically.

Having bought ads on both platforms it's amazing just how much you can drill down to target your ads.

[Skidder.]

So you have no access to the net from your phone outside of your home WIFI, or other WIFI, just not at your place of work?

They will certainly be able to use other methods than your location data though.


I imagine this is the case. I notice very targeted ads for myself, but if I think about them individually there is normally always some sort of connection I can make.

You have to remember that for the likes of Google (who run most of the adverts you'll see online) and Facebook (if you're on there) get most of their revenue from ad sales, and have invested billions upon billions in developing algorithms and methods to enable companies to target ads very specifically.

Having bought ads on both platforms it's amazing just how much you can drill down to target your ads.

Yup - this is what confuses me. No Wifi apart from home or on the busses. I don't need it if I am frank.

I just found it, by far, one of the most bizarre instances I've experienced. I know it isn't targeted ads - but still, somehow, I can't help but feel that someone is playing a trick on me - it is just that strange.

I can't for the life fathom how this has all linked - I re-checked my likes and stuff, I have no likes that would link me to this department and I have no friends from within the department. The only tenable link I can make is that I have spoken about this department, both to friends (face to face) and on the phone a few times.

As I have said, I have not used their WiFi and I have not searched for anything to do with the department on my phone - even if I had, I use Ghostery.

I know I'm coming across like a paranoid doodler, but over the past year - I have noticed one too many coincidences for it to be plainly coincidences. With Occam's Razor in mind, the simplest explanation would be that somehow, something is picking up my most used words within conversations - and Facebook/Google are suggesting friends, pages and products that related to those 'hotwords'.

When I think about it though, it is absolutely barmy and sounds like something out of a film.

[CraigDS]

You don't need to like stuff for Facebook to link you, FB will look at everything you've looked at, spent longer time on, clicked, etc.

Have you looked up the company or any of the employees? Or they may even have looked you up on there, which if they've similar interests to you (or similar past/current employment) then would no doubt be enough for FB to link you.

[Skidder.]

You don't need to like stuff for Facebook to link you, FB will look at everything you've looked at, spent longer time on, clicked, etc.

Have you looked up the company or any of the employees? Or they may even have looked you up on there, which if they've similar interests to you (or similar past/current employment) then would no doubt be enough for FB to link you.

Not at all mate, nada.

Doubt they'd be looking me up, but could be possible. I'm wracking my brains to go over what footprints I may have made, but can't think of any.

Could literally just be a coincidence - but as I've intimated, one too many. I can only come to the conclusion that somewhere on my phone something is picking up on my hotwords.

Too much evidence for me Craig... all circumstancial, but nonetheless, it would definitely be the next logical step in targeting adverts and the like.

Thing is, is that since I started this thread, I've stepped back on what apps I install on my phone. Have very little google apps and mostly use mobile sites, as oppose to apps.

[CraigDS]

Thing is, is that since I started this thread, I've stepped back on what apps I install on my phone. Have very little google apps and mostly use mobile sites, as oppose to apps.

Have you wrapped your head in tinfoil to make sure your brainwaves aren't being monitored though mate? 

[Skidder.]

Have you wrapped your head in tinfoil to make sure your brainwaves aren't being monitored though mate? 

I do have an old WWII replica hat that I stole from my uncles prop shed. I think that's made of tin - I'll probably use that.

[MichaelA]

Yes they are.

[Skidder.]

Hmmm...

[SPLee]

Not sure if this has been posted, from 1st June...

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/google-voice-search-records-stores-conversation-people-have-around-their-phones-but-files-can-be-a7059376.html

[CraigDS]

Not sure if this has been posted, from 1st June...

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/google-voice-search-records-stores-conversation-people-have-around-their-phones-but-files-can-be-a7059376.html

Like two posts above yours 

[Craig S]

Hmmm...

Other people in your contact list to suggest friends. Company names in your contact list that you already have an association with, fb may provide ads from these to leverage your existing relationship. Whatsapp want businesses to use them as a legit means of customer communication, so in the future this would give them more info on how many times you contacted BT for example.

[WillG.LFC]

Read this thread ages ago and just popped into my head. This morning on the motorway listening to radio city on the way to work a woman was mentioning how hard it is to be a woman and that she looked like a wooden cabinet after a spray tan went wrong. Just reading an article about juanma our new u23 left back and on the page is an add for oakland wooden furniture and a massive wooden set of drawers