Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1447650 times)

Offline Ray K

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28000 on: September 10, 2019, 09:28:18 pm »
Peston:
Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain" on the...
ballot paper. The reason this matters is that those senior members of the shadow cabinet, such as Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell and Tom Watson, who want Labour to adopt an unambiguous remain position have been defeated. "It is important that voters who want to...
leave as well as those who want to remain can vote Labour. What we've rejected is the Trumpian no-deal position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson". I am told all the  unions unanimously backed this position, and that it was not a Len McCluskey and Unite putsch. Watson, Thornberry and Starmer...
will be devastated, because they fear it will see large number of remain supporting Labour voters switching to support the LibDems and the Greens in the looming election. And it will probably delight Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, who would expect to campaign against opposition parties with...
significantly differing degrees of commitment to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. But Corbyn has consistently wanted to avoid alienating Labour supporting Brexiters. @jeremycorbyn @LenMcCluskey @tom_watson @Keir_Starmer @EmilyThornberry @johnmcdonnellMP
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Offline stevo7

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28001 on: September 10, 2019, 09:28:37 pm »
As a few of us said, once Revoke was openly talked about in Parliament, a PV suddenly becomes a moderate, reasonable choice

Quite, If you're haggling you know what you want to pay, but open with a higher bid knowing you are prepared to go lower to what you want to pay.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28002 on: September 10, 2019, 09:49:55 pm »
Peston:
Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain" on the...
ballot paper. The reason this matters is that those senior members of the shadow cabinet, such as Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell and Tom Watson, who want Labour to adopt an unambiguous remain position have been defeated. "It is important that voters who want to...
leave as well as those who want to remain can vote Labour. What we've rejected is the Trumpian no-deal position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson". I am told all the  unions unanimously backed this position, and that it was not a Len McCluskey and Unite putsch. Watson, Thornberry and Starmer...
will be devastated, because they fear it will see large number of remain supporting Labour voters switching to support the LibDems and the Greens in the looming election. And it will probably delight Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, who would expect to campaign against opposition parties with...
significantly differing degrees of commitment to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. But Corbyn has consistently wanted to avoid alienating Labour supporting Brexiters. @jeremycorbyn @LenMcCluskey @tom_watson @Keir_Starmer @EmilyThornberry @johnmcdonnellMP
Ive no idea what a credible remain option means, a credible leave option means being honest on red lines, give us a clue, are we going to hear the same s..we've heard for the last 2yrs.  I take the CU condition of no trade deals for granted, it's the close alignment to the SM and all those conditions where they will become vague. voters will want to know how they stand on immigration, EU rules and regulations. EU budget payments, ECJ. then theres we will be rule takers not rule makers question. Labour are making this very hard for themselves, this would have been a great argument to make 3 yrs ago.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28003 on: September 10, 2019, 09:52:16 pm »
As a few of us said, once Revoke was openly talked about in Parliament, a PV suddenly becomes a moderate, reasonable choice
Yep, it was brought up on here months ago,if leave say no deal, remain should shout revoke. the middle ground becomes a referendum.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28004 on: September 10, 2019, 10:01:10 pm »
Peston:
Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain" on the...
ballot paper. The reason this matters is that those senior members of the shadow cabinet, such as Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell and Tom Watson, who want Labour to adopt an unambiguous remain position have been defeated. "It is important that voters who want to...
leave as well as those who want to remain can vote Labour.
What we've rejected is the Trumpian no-deal position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson". I am told all the  unions unanimously backed this position, and that it was not a Len McCluskey and Unite putsch. Watson, Thornberry and Starmer...
will be devastated, because they fear it will see large number of remain supporting Labour voters switching to support the LibDems and the Greens in the looming election. And it will probably delight Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, who would expect to campaign against opposition parties with...
significantly differing degrees of commitment to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. But Corbyn has consistently wanted to avoid alienating Labour supporting Brexiters. @jeremycorbyn @LenMcCluskey @tom_watson @Keir_Starmer @EmilyThornberry @johnmcdonnellMP


So they expect voters who want to Remain to vote Labour?  It seems to me, once again, that Labour is more concerned about wooing Leavers and think Remainers will have nowhere else to go but them.  The strategy seems to be "vote for us and you'll get your referendum, but if you vote Lib Dem you'll let the Tories back in and Brexit will be a certainty."

Except as others have said, pushing for a referendum and actually picking a side on it are two very different things.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28006 on: September 10, 2019, 10:10:33 pm »
Just to be clear this is just the TULO endorsing Corbyn's current stated position, not a conference resolution or firm policy.

It's a setback but not terminal to the idea that Labour can campaign to Remain even if they are promising a referendum.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28007 on: September 10, 2019, 10:33:31 pm »
Just to be clear this is just the TULO endorsing Corbyn's current stated position, not a conference resolution or firm policy.

It's a setback but not terminal to the idea that Labour can campaign to Remain even if they are promising a referendum.

I’m confused as to why people are surprised by this. If your going to have a second Referendum Leave has to be an option, your can’t have the choice between Remain and Remain.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28008 on: September 10, 2019, 10:43:46 pm »
....The government on the edge of collapse and you’re pissing about with petty student politics games...

You obviously haven't been paying attention.

This is much more important stuff to the comrades than any brexit sideshow shenanigans.

Don't you know that the real fight for purity starts here....
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28009 on: September 10, 2019, 10:55:15 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!
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Offline TheShanklyGates

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28010 on: September 10, 2019, 11:00:17 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

And his vote is worth just as much as yours or mine. Makes you despair, doesn't it.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28011 on: September 10, 2019, 11:02:11 pm »
I’m confused as to why people are surprised by this. If your going to have a second Referendum Leave has to be an option, your can’t have the choice between Remain and Remain.
To be fair thats a good point, it would have won far many more people over a few years back.the questions people will want to know is How long will it take for Labour to negotiate this deal. so we are in for a long extension, will you keep on negotiating and extending until you are happy with the deal.
People will be able to tell if they come out with the same bul..
Labour are going to make a CU deal part of the deal. it's  the SM close alignment that's the problem, I would back this every day of the week to take us out of this mess but the Tories are going to rip them apart, you can just see Corbyn evading hard questions. Q  will your deal mean FOM, yes or no,etc etc.   
I would of thought the leave options either a no deal or Mays deal.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28012 on: September 10, 2019, 11:02:13 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Is that for real?

I cannot for the life of me get my head around the stupidity of some people.

Election coming up, so the crooks in power that have abandoned the country, its people, its services and all responsibility suddenly promise to give back just a little of what they have taken from us and some brainless idiots fall for it yet again.  :butt
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Offline gamble

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28013 on: September 10, 2019, 11:02:54 pm »
We just go round and round in circles. I don't see the arithmetic of this upcoming GE changing anything. The country is still split, the Tories will guarantee a brexit whilst the chance of a brexit is less certain with the other parties.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28014 on: September 10, 2019, 11:11:25 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!
why Grimsby is shit reason #37452524

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28015 on: September 10, 2019, 11:14:21 pm »
To be fair thats a good point, it would have won far many more people over a few years back.the questions people will want to know is How long will it take for Labour to negotiate this deal. so we are in for a long extension, will you keep on negotiating and extending until you are happy with the deal.
People will be able to tell if they come out with the same bul..
Labour are going to make a CU deal part of the deal. it's  the SM close alignment that's the problem, I would back this every day of the week to take us out of this mess but the Tories are going to rip them apart, you can just see Corbyn evading hard questions. Q  will your deal mean FOM, yes or no,etc etc.   
I would of thought the leave options either a no deal or Mays deal.
Honestly, I think the ballot should now come down to Remain vs No-Plan. There is no middle ground which might be acceptable to the majority of people.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28016 on: September 10, 2019, 11:16:40 pm »
Oh, I should add, since it is not possible to have 'No-Plan' (or whatever it would be called) as an option, just have 'Remain' as the only remaining option. Works for me!
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
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Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28017 on: September 10, 2019, 11:16:58 pm »
Choosing what to put on the first referendum was hard enough. Another one could take decades. And what percentage is needed to pass it...
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28018 on: September 10, 2019, 11:17:19 pm »
Oh, I should add, since it is not possible to have 'No-Plan' (or whatever it would be called) as an option, just have 'Remain' as the only remaining option. Works for me!
Remain, or don't leave. That should do it !
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Robinred

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28019 on: September 10, 2019, 11:17:46 pm »
Is that for real?

I cannot for the life of me get my head around the stupidity of some people.

Election coming up, so the crooks in power that have abandoned the country, its people, its services and all responsibility suddenly promise to give back just a little of what they have taken from us and some brainless idiots fall for it yet again.  :butt

I made the point that The Shankly Gates makes, above, on the morning of the Referendum result: all my life until 2016, I believed fundamentally in the importance of universal suffrage.

That changed in 2016, on the day of the result, when the BBC 1‘0’clock news showed a vox pops piece with a middle aged woman in Sheffield city centre dancing in utter joy, chanting “we’ve got our country back” repeatedly. Nothing I’ve seen or heard since will convince me to adopt my former view. That’s entirely counter-intuitive, and against everything I thought I knew, but it’s the truth.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28020 on: September 10, 2019, 11:23:08 pm »
Honestly, I think the ballot should now come down to Remain vs No-Plan. There is no middle ground which might be acceptable to the majority of people.
You may well be right but at least give voters a choice so all arguments arerespected, it will have to be a 2 stage referendum.how it works us up for debate, maybe all voters vote on the leave option first, Mays deal or a no deal winner faces the remain choice at a later date, this would still give all voters a choice on the leave option,  I prefer that to a 3 question vote of remain , no deal,Mays deal as am certain it would result in a remain v no deal referendum.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28021 on: September 10, 2019, 11:26:22 pm »
Choosing what to put on the first referendum was hard enough. Another one could take decades. And what percentage is needed to pass it...

Would be fucking mad to have No Deal on the ballot paper. If it is to be a no deal, let it be rammed home by MP’s, not the dickhead public.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28022 on: September 10, 2019, 11:28:45 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Well most of the public are fucking idiots so most vox pops throw up idiotic responses. Another old bint said Johnson was trustworthy. Fuck off you old dickhead.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28023 on: September 10, 2019, 11:40:43 pm »
Would be fucking mad to have No Deal on the ballot paper. If it is to be a no deal, let it be rammed home by MP’s, not the dickhead public.
Yes, but there is no WA-type in the offing. So, what else would you offer? I know that 'No-Plan' is not acceptable either (the option must be something concrete after all). So, 'No-Plan' will have to mean whatever the government can cobble together by a set-in-stone leave date. A difficult sell.
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Offline stevo7

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28024 on: September 10, 2019, 11:41:08 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!
Maybe he wants to be a policeman. Was he suitable material?
Sorry haven't seen Newsnight yet, not loading on iplayer.

Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28025 on: September 10, 2019, 11:43:25 pm »
On the shocking state of the knob head high street vox pops on BBC over past couple of years I have a theory...it's not malicious by the BBC..just that they want a vox pop to reflect news of the day...for evening news and newsnight....so message goes out to visit people shopping and ask questions...thing is who is walking around town centres in midweek afternoons?...Well I will tell you who isn't , working people , higher educated people.

The average age of a BBC viewer is 61. BBC is under pressure and will lose itself as we know it in 10 years. Its alienating so many of its audience by its Brexit coverage . I simply don't have faith in it anymore. It's loading the dice.


As a foot note have you seen how many WW2 related programmes on BBC last few months...these where planned months ago possibly when thought we would have left EU
.are these programmes to lift the spirits to invoke ' The Dunkirk Spirit'.....cos they assumed rationing had kicked in :D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 11:49:41 pm by FlashingBlade »

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28026 on: September 10, 2019, 11:47:05 pm »
Well most of the public are fucking idiots so most vox pops throw up idiotic responses. Another old bint said Johnson was trustworthy. Fuck off you old dickhead.
(Semi-)serious question: what is/was your Gran like? I don't propose to attempt psychoanalyse you, but FFS. Is it just old people you hate, or is it everyone?
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Offline Machae

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28027 on: September 10, 2019, 11:47:34 pm »
How about they charge the people who want Brexit, let them make up the loss for their stupidity. I dont see why I have to fucking subsidise their xenophobia

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28028 on: September 10, 2019, 11:59:21 pm »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Quote
Up to half a million people will have to apply to become police officers over the next three years in order to meet Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s 20,000 target, a senior officer has said.

Martin Hewitt, chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC), warned that because of the number of officers who retire or leave every year, 50,000 new officers may have to be hired in total.

Speaking at the Police Superintendents’ Association conference, he said that only one in every 10 applicants currently becomes a police officer in England and Wales, meaning 500,000 hopefuls would be required at the current rate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-police-officers-recruit-martin-hewitt-a9099706.html

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28029 on: September 11, 2019, 12:07:05 am »
(Semi-)serious question: what is/was your Gran like? I don't propose to attempt psychoanalyse you, but FFS. Is it just old people you hate, or is it everyone?
Check out her custom title.  ;)

Talking of Grans, my Gran absolutely idolised Thatcher, for reasons I could never fathom.  :rollseyes

« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 12:09:31 am by Sons of pioneerS »
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28030 on: September 11, 2019, 12:08:35 am »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!


News Thump, Fred from Grimsby says ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’...
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28031 on: September 11, 2019, 12:17:32 am »
Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

I always mute vox pops they do my head in, who knows how many they did to get the ones they used to fit the News Story they want to tell, they may have had people saying I will vote Labour because I can't stand Johnson, it's like before the last election it was all doom and gloom and hardly any Vox pops were people who said they would vote Labour. To match the Tory landslide opinion polls.

New poll out last night.

Britain Elects
‏ @britainelects

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 30% (-1)
LAB: 29% (+2)
LDEM: 17% (-3)
BREX: 13% (-)
GRN: 4% (+1)

via @ComRes, 06 - 08 Sep
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28032 on: September 11, 2019, 12:22:52 am »
Well most of the public are fucking idiots so most vox pops throw up idiotic responses. Another old bint said Johnson was trustworthy. Fuck off you old dickhead.

Haha, classic. Gonna miss your old people rants when this is all over

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28033 on: September 11, 2019, 12:37:10 am »
who knows how many they did to get the ones they used to fit the News Story they want to tell

And yet, you continue to post shite from sqwawkbox. Presumbaly because it fits what you want to be told?

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28034 on: September 11, 2019, 12:40:52 am »
I’m confused as to why people are surprised by this. If your going to have a second Referendum Leave has to be an option, your can’t have the choice between Remain and Remain.
That's not the point - at least not mine. The point is that it had started looking like while offering a referendum Labour would campaign for Remain - McDonnell, Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry and others have all started saying this and coalesced around the idea and there was a lot of talk that Corbyn could be persuaded. This would not only be preferable in itself for us but also would make cooperation with the Lib Dems and the rest of the Remain opposition smoother and more fruitful.

The slight worry after the TULO endorsement is that Labour may continue to be equivocal after all, or even campaign for their own version of Leave. That's all.

It's just a possible sign that Starmer et al may not get their way. But there's a long way to go still so who knows.

In addition there's the question of which would achieve a better outcome for Remainers: Remain vs Labour Leave or Remain vs No Plan?

Your mileage will very, some feel having No Plan on the referendum will concentrate minds and force a massive Remain vote. Others feel having it there is too risky and the alternative should be some kind of softer deal.

There are pros and cons to both viewpoints
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 12:45:39 am by Ghost Town »
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28035 on: September 11, 2019, 01:31:39 am »
If Labour is going to take a position on a 'credible option to leave" then they have to explain in detail what that means.

They then need to demonstrate that it has a chance of being ratified by the EU and will pass Parliament.

It is difficult to see what this 'credible option' might be. We know already that whatever it is (let's assume that such an option exists in Corbyn's mind and isn't just more magical thinking that miraculously enables a fundamentally divided electorate to deliver both Leave and Remain votes to the most unpopular Leader of the Opposition in living memory) it is worse economically than Remain.

Following which, under current policy, this miracle will have to be put to the people in a simple enough format for them to understand. (The problem with any second referendum, as the thread demonstrates, is that no Leave option past No Deal is going to be understood by the voters). Following which Corbyn as either LoTO or Prime Minister is going to have to campaign on it (i.e. make an actual decision other than go on holiday).

Every stage of that invites the simpletons of No Deal to manage a win because No Deal is easy to communicate. And even if that is overcome, the inevitable economic downturn will then belong to Labour and Labour alone.

Alternatively, stand up for Revoke - which is equally easy to communicate - campaign on educating the voter on why (dead simple now) and look forward to either an outright majority or a workable coalition with the LibDems and Greens whilst the Tories disappear into civil war.

The time for a referendum has passed, in my view. It will do nothing but confuse and further polarise, especially with Labour unwilling to come off the fence in the belief they can achieve the simple paradise of Remainers and Leavers joining hands together in sunlit upland pastures of unity and love of Jeremy Corbyn.
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28036 on: September 11, 2019, 06:32:48 am »
The attraction of a referendum for Corbyn is that he doesn't have to campaign for either side and intends to go on holiday during it. There's precedent for it. To be honest, I'd rather he campaigned for 'Leave' if there's a next time. 'Remain' had him last time. Fair's fair.

One good point made in favour of a referendum is that it's a way to overturn the 2016 referendum without allowing such decisions to continue to get loaded into straight manifesto pledges. Tories have form for wanting to overturn referendums via a general election result so it may not be in anyone's interest to start. Not sure where I'm at with that, and it is a very reasonable point, because the ultimate factor is public response and political bandwidth to do it. Opening the Brexit tin of worms again just to please Bill Cash may not look so smart 5 years down the line.

Labour's position of recognising they need a viable alternative on the ballot for a referendum is perfectly logical. Have to be off your tits to think it can be sold to even voters who want to leave the EU. The only way anyone has kept pace with the leave movement is to shout 'harder! faster!' at appropriate moments. I'd say let leave voters decide what they want but they've not agreed with each other over solid proposals in 40 years so fuck that. Mug's game for Labour. Something for bored journalists to write about for a few weeks so there is that.
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28037 on: September 11, 2019, 06:47:40 am »
I get that most people are stupid and the stupid ones should never be allowed to reach an age that wastes their vote or maybe they should never be given a vote to waste but politicians dont make things easy for us.

All this haggling over the last 3yrs, all these debates, an election that made things worse and now they're trying to put us through it all again.

Nothing's changed for the vast majority of the stupid and the old yet somehow a different outcome is expected.

What's that insanity cliche again?


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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28038 on: September 11, 2019, 06:58:04 am »
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson Secretly Asked For A Massive Amount Of User Data To Be Tracked. Dominic Cummings Said It’s “TOP PRIORITY”.

Leaked documents show the prime minister’s chief adviser emailed senior officials instructing them: “We must get this stuff finalised ASAP.”

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has secretly ordered the Cabinet Office to turn the government’s public internet service into a platform for “targeted and personalised information” to be gathered in the run-up to Brexit, BuzzFeed News has learned.

In a move that has alarmed Whitehall officials, the prime minister has instructed departments to share data they collect about usage of the GOV.UK portal so that it can feed into preparations for leaving the European Union at the end of next month.

Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s chief adviser, emailed senior officials instructing them to make sure that ministers, department heads, and political aides know that the instruction is “TOP PRIORITY”, according to leaked government documents.

In a personal minute on Aug. 19 to members of the Cabinet’s EU exit operations (“XO”) committee, which is responsible for no-deal preparations, Johnson said centralised data was also necessary to accelerate his ambitions for a digital revolution in public services. The committee includes chancellor Sajid Javid, home secretary Priti Patel, and the minister responsible for no-deal planning, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove.

“I expect everyone to act immediately to execute the above actions,” Johnson wrote. Any delays were to be reported to his office right away.

Cummings reiterated the urgency of the direction in an email to senior officials on Aug. 28:

    To stress: as per the PM note to all Cabinet and ministers yesterday, please ensure that all ministers, Perm Secs, and spads know that this is TOP PRIORITY.

    We must get this stuff finalised ASAP and there are many interdependencies resting on this happening.

    The PM says a) his office must be informed of anything that will delay the GDS / comms plan by 24 hours and b) CDL will deal with any problems/delays today…

A government spokesperson told BuzzFeed News: “Across the industry, it is normal for organisations to look at how their websites are used to make sure they provide the best possible service.

“Individual government departments currently collect anonymised user data when people use GOV.UK. The Government Digital Service is working on a project to bring this anonymous data together to make sure people can access all the services they need as easily as possible.

“No personal data is collected at any point during the process, and all activity is fully compliant with our legal and ethical obligations.”

However, BuzzFeed News understands that some officials in Whitehall are concerned about such an enormous transfer of data being done at speed, behind closed doors, at a time of national crisis. It is not obvious, one said, how the Cabinet Office having access to all the GOV.UK data from across Whitehall will aid its Brexit preparations.

Privacy campaigners, policy experts, and opposition politicians said the move raised a huge number of legal and ethical questions. Pooling the user data from across government would give GDS a detailed picture of people’s online interactions with government, the privacy experts said, and this should not be done without the public’s knowledge and rigorous checks to ensure that data rights will be protected.

“Secret orders are not the way to handle these complex policies that have generated huge controversies in the past,” Javier Ruiz Diaz, head of policy at the Open Rights Group, told BuzzFeed News. “We need consultation and public debate to build social consensus for any new gathering of personal data, including the appropriate safeguards.”

“Citizens have a right to know how their data is being used,” said Gavin Freeguard, head of transparency and data at the Institute for Government think tank. “Government should be having the debates and discussion about the appropriate use of data in public, with the public, rather than sending secret notes to cabinet committees.”

Labour said it was suspicious of the urgency and timing of the demand, given that it came as Downing Street was preparing for a political showdown over Brexit and potentially a general election.

Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, told BuzzFeed News: “These leaked memos should set off serious alarm bells. How does profiling citizens help with no deal preparation? Why is government prioritising it when we are just six weeks away from Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s own Brexit deadline, and why the threat to departments that refuse to comply?”

Watson added: “Given Dominic Cummings’ focus on data science in the Vote Leave campaign this sudden urgent need for big data collection is extremely concerning. We need immediate clarity about how citizens’ data will be protected and assurances that it won’t be misused for party political purposes.”

Cummings, the combative former head of Vote Leave, has a keen understanding of the power of data. The pro-Brexit campaign’s success in the 2016 referendum was partly due to its use of digital technology to target messages.

In a personal blog before entering Downing Street, Cummings mused about the potential for data to disrupt and transform public services: “One of the many ways in which Whitehall and Downing Street should be revolutionised is to integrate physicist-dominated data science in decision making,” he wrote in a post in October 2016.

“There really are vast improvements possible in Government that could save hundreds of billions and avoid many disasters. Leaving the EU also requires the destruction of the normal Whitehall/Downing Street system and the development of new methods. A dysfunctional broken system is hardly likely to achieve the most complex UK government project since beating Nazi Germany…”

GOV.UK is the British government’s public internet platform, providing information about and links to services from passports to pensions. Since the start of this month, it has also been the hub for the government’s publicity campaign to prepare voters and businesses for a no-deal Brexit. The government is running advertisements on Facebook and elsewhere urging people to “Get Ready for Brexit”, directing them to GOV.UK for more information.

At present, usage of GOV.UK is tracked by individual departments, not collected centrally. According to the documents seen by BuzzFeed News, the Cabinet Office’s digital unit, the Government Digital Service (GDS), will add an additional layer of tracking that “will enable GDS to have data for the entire journey of a user as they land on GOV.UK from a Google advert or an email link, read content on GOV.UK, click on a link taking them from GOV.UK to a service and then onwards through the service journey to completion”.

In the personal minute, Johnson told members of the XO committee that GDS had been asked to turn the GOV.UK portal into a “platform to allow targeted and personalised information to be gathered, analysed and fed back actively to support key decision making” in the run-up to Brexit.

Departments needed to send data to GDS and “work in partnership so that it can build a single consolidated view of how citizens interact with Government through GOV.UK”, Johnson said. He told ministers they may need to reallocate digital resources and staff to “work on the central analytics platform being developed by GDS as part of the Insights programme to support Brexit preparations for a period of up to 6 months”.

The prime minister added that better data analytics will be crucial to improving digital delivery of public services in the long run:

    At the heart of that is our approach to UK digital identity, transitioning to a model driven by ubiquitous digital identity standards. There are decisions ahead on how best accelerate convergence onto these standards, including next steps on Verify. XO has tasked GDS with developing — in cooperation with others — a digital identity accelerated implementation plan and I would ask you all to engage in that work urgently.

Verify is the government’s flagship digital identity scheme. It was meant to be used by 25 million people by 2020, but it failed to meet performance targets and its future is now uncertain. A Public Accounts Committee report concluded in May: “People using Verify have been badly served by an onerous system that is not fit for purpose.”

In the short term, Johnson said: “There are also digital identity factors that relate to preparations for 31st October.” He continued:

    There is a desire to develop personalised “account creation” feasability studies pre-31 October which can deliver benefits shortly after. The greater the volume of data structured through personalised ID, the more impact the outcome. Steps that Government can take to increase the volume now whilst continuing to deliver critical services, must be looked at. This includes fully exploiting various current pilots such as use of passport data for identity checking and that new services are meeting an appropriate identity standard that can help not hinder convergence. The accelerated implementation plan can pick this up.

In a separate document seen by BuzzFeed News, departments were told that GDS had been asked to collect data about “key Brexit services” by the end of Aug. 30.

“We have identified a subset of key Brexit services and are already working with those service teams, we are now working to add all other services, including those not related to Brexit,” it said.

Departments were asked to sign a memorandum of understanding setting out the terms of the sharing arrangement and to return it to the Cabinet Office by the end of Sept. 3.

Freeguard, from the Institute for Government, said: “More intelligent and joined up use of data could be a big improvement — for Brexit preparations and elsewhere across government. But doing data in the dark could lead to a loss of public trust and make citizens much more hesitant in allowing their data to be used in future.”

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-voter-data
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28039 on: September 11, 2019, 07:06:40 am »
A bit odd this...


The government should be asking for this data surely?
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