Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[killer-heels]

Flint is like Ummuna, Kinnock, Kendall and Burnham. All those supposed moderates who are happy to turn on immigration and link them directly to social problems.

To think that cohort was deemed the senisble option. Im glad that their powers in the party is dilluted.

[classycarra]

Flint is like Ummuna, Kinnock, Kendall and Burnham. All those supposed moderates who are happy to turn on immigration and link them directly to social problems.

To think that cohort was deemed the senisble option. Im glad that their powers in the party is dilluted.

I only recall Burnham doing that, which you've frequently cited. When have the other three?

[west_london_red]

WLR was making the case for Brexit prior to the referendum.

I actually voted Remain in the end, but it was a very reluctant Remain.

[west_london_red]

Do you mean only, not first?

As for the suggestion that Brexit came because of increased federalism and suppression of a nation state, do you really believe that?

Wouldn't it be weird for the first/only manifestation of your theory to come from the EU nation with probably the least hint of federal future involvement and least suppressed nation state

It’s only the only one today, whether it’s the the only one in 5 or 10 years time we’ll have to see, but there seems to be more talk of federalism recently among EU leaders, not that I would expect the move to a more federal EU to happen overnight.

[oldfordie]

It’s only the only one today, whether it’s the the only one in 5 or 10 years time we’ll have to see, but there seems to be more talk of federalism recently among EU leaders, not that I would expect the move to a more federal EU to happen overnight.

Oh Great, not only do we have to fight to expose the lies etc now we have to fight the conspiracy theories.

[west_london_red]

Oh Great, not only do we have to fight to expose the lies etc now we have to fight the conspiracy theories.

Where’s the conspiracy theory exactly?

[Trada]

Tories happy May came back from the EU with a pat on the head a tickle behind the ear & told to fetch the EU bill in 2 months or they will rub her nose in it.

[killer-heels]

I only recall Burnham doing that, which you've frequently cited. When have the other three?

When talking about this report Umunna said immigration has caused social issues. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/chuka-umunna-integrate-immigrants-so-they-dont-lead-parallel-lives

Flint also loves to bash the scaremongering tone in her debates on immigration
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/government-urged-to-clarify-immigration-stance-for-postbrexit-uk-35434639.html

Thats of course following Milliband with his immigration rhetori when he contested the election. Basically these so called moderates have done more than anyone with bringing the ‘issue’ of immigration forward. Personally, i am glad these people are now marginalised and have no power left in the party.

[Sangria]

It’s only the only one today, whether it’s the the only one in 5 or 10 years time we’ll have to see, but there seems to be more talk of federalism recently among EU leaders, not that I would expect the move to a more federal EU to happen overnight.

One might read that as the remaining EU members having greater appetite for greater integration now that the main obstacle to it has decided to leave the scene.

[west_london_red]

One might read that as the remaining EU members having greater appetite for greater integration now that the main obstacle to it has decided to leave the scene.

The UK was one blocker, however I would guess that the EU nations of Eastern Europe might not be so welcoming of greater integration either, although they may be easier to convince then the UK being net beneficieries of EU funding.

[classycarra]

When talking about this report Umunna said immigration has caused social issues. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/chuka-umunna-integrate-immigrants-so-they-dont-lead-parallel-lives

Flint also loves to bash the scaremongering tone in her debates on immigration
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/government-urged-to-clarify-immigration-stance-for-postbrexit-uk-35434639.html

Thats of course following Milliband with his immigration rhetori when he contested the election. Basically these so called moderates have done more than anyone with bringing the ‘issue’ of immigration forward. Personally, i am glad these people are now marginalised and have no power left in the party.

I asked you for examples on Kinnock, Umunna and Kendall, and you only found one (and it's not an example of what you said, you massively misrepresented him). In fact only four paragraphs down in the article you sent it describes what you just did.

He said that efforts need to be made by everyone to ensure immigrants play a role in society. For the sake of immigrants and non-immigrants. And he says this as the child of immigrants. You're allowed to not like him, which you frequently make clear, but don't make him out to be a xenophobe after you've decided you don't like him just to try to justify your dislike. It's dishonest.

Would be interested to see if you've also misrepresented Kendall and Kinnock.

Since you're glad they're now apparently marginalised, because of your dislike of their immigration comments, can you provide an example of someone whose immigration views in Labour that you do like? Would be interesting context to find out what you actually think, and if you rate any of their views, or if you just hate it all to varying degrees.

[oldfordie]

Where’s the conspiracy theory exactly?

The United States of Europe.

[west_london_red]

The United States of Europe.

No one mentioned the United States of Europe, but let’s not dwell on that for now.

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and it’s structures over its citizens lives?

[oldfordie]

No one mentioned the United States of Europe, but let’s not dwell on that for now.

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and it’s structures over its citizens lives?

Federalism meaning direct rule from Brussels, why use the word Federalism?
You will have to help me here, in what way do you expect the EU to have more control over our lives?
Your making a argument that the EU have sinister intentions, based on what.

[Wilmo]

I asked you for examples on Kinnock, Umunna and Kendall, and you only found one (and it's not an example of what you said, you massively misrepresented him). In fact only four paragraphs down in the article you sent it describes what you just did.

He said that efforts need to be made by everyone to ensure immigrants play a role in society. For the sake of immigrants and non-immigrants. And he says this as the child of immigrants. You're allowed to not like him, which you frequently make clear, but don't make him out to be a xenophobe after you've decided you don't like him just to try to justify your dislike. It's dishonest.

Would be interested to see if you've also misrepresented Kendall and Kinnock.

Since you're glad they're now apparently marginalised, because of your dislike of their immigration comments, can you provide an example of someone whose immigration views in Labour that you do like? Would be interesting context to find out what you actually think, and if you rate any of their views, or if you just hate it all to varying degrees.

Stephen Kinnock (I assume that's who we're talking about) feels strongly enough about the social impact of immigration that he wrote two opinion pieces recently in the guardian about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/07/labour-must-introduce-fair-immigration-system

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/cure-divided-britain-managed-immigration-work-permits

"But people are worried about more than pressures on jobs, wages and housing: they are anxious about culture, identity and the rate of change of communities."

Here is a quote from a speech he gave in response to Paul Nutall being voted UKIP leader:

"It is about having a system in place which says ‘we’ve done an analysis of what our economy needs and we’re going to have a system in place which gets us to those numbers'.

"Now, those numbers may well be below where we are now, but if on a sector-by-sector basis you come to the view that actually we’ve got a gap here which can’t be filled by indigenous British workers, we need that much immigration.

"It’s about having the immigration that the country needs, which is also able to be absorbed within our public services to make sure that we have an immigration system that works for all."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/immigration/news/81354/excl-clive-lewis-attacks-stephen-kinnocks-potentially

As for Liz Kendall, here are some quotes from a BBC Newsnight Hustings in 2015:

“We need strong rules, people are angry and concerned about immigration, they’re angry about people trying to get into this country illegally, scrambling onto lorries from Calais,” she said.

“If you come here legally from Europe you should come to work, and not claim benefits, and put in before you take out.

“You should respect the community you live in and our culture and for people outside Europe we need a strict points-based system like they have in Australia.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-kendall-says-she-wants-an-australian-style-points-based-immigration-system-10328214.html

In fairness, she did qualify this with the following:

'“I will not be the Labour leader that tried to out-Ukip Ukip, or pretends to people there’s some kind of button we can push to rewind the country and go back to a world that isn’t coming back,” she said.

She added that her constituency had seen “huge benefits” from immigration and that she would not turn back the clock.' (from the article). Whether you find that qualification convincing is up to you, I guess - for me, there's a few too many dog-whistles hidden within her rhetoric.

Now, whatever you think of these comments and viewpoints, it's undeniable that killer_heels wasn't incorrect when they posted:

Flint is like Ummuna, Kinnock, Kendall and Burnham. All those supposed moderates who are happy to turn on immigration and link them directly to social problems.

To think that cohort was deemed the senisble option. Im glad that their powers in the party is dilluted.

They most certainly do link immigration to social problems, although to differing degrees. They are referred to by some as 'moderates' - would you not agree?

Now, there's a fair argument to be had about whether the above are right or justified in linking immigration to social issues, but I can't see where killer-heels has 'misrepresented' anyone.

[killer-heels]

I asked you for examples on Kinnock, Umunna and Kendall, and you only found one (and it's not an example of what you said, you massively misrepresented him). In fact only four paragraphs down in the article you sent it describes what you just did.

He said that efforts need to be made by everyone to ensure immigrants play a role in society. For the sake of immigrants and non-immigrants. And he says this as the child of immigrants. You're allowed to not like him, which you frequently make clear, but don't make him out to be a xenophobe after you've decided you don't like him just to try to justify your dislike. It's dishonest.

Would be interested to see if you've also misrepresented Kendall and Kinnock.

Since you're glad they're now apparently marginalised, because of your dislike of their immigration comments, can you provide an example of someone whose immigration views in Labour that you do like? Would be interesting context to find out what you actually think, and if you rate any of their views, or if you just hate it all to varying degrees.

Where did i call any of them a xenophobe?

I like Corbyn’s comments on immigration. I like the fact that he for ages refuses to commit to reducing immigration.

[ShakaHislop]

Where did i call any of them a xenophobe?

I like Corbyn’s comments on immigration. I like the fact that he for ages refuses to commit to reducing immigration.

Why is he not backing up his comments with action now that he's in charge, and meekly accepting the end of FOM?

[killer-heels]

Why is he not backing up his comments with action now that he's in charge, and meekly accepting the end of FOM?

I dont think he has commited to a reduction of immigration. Most people have said immigration must come down, Corbyn hasnt committed to that.

[ShakaHislop]

I dont think he has commited to a reduction of immigration. Most people have said immigration must come down, Corbyn hasnt committed to that.

Well, if he's not bothered about the numbers of people coming into this country - which I'm not convinced by after he said this

What there wouldn’t be is the wholesale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe in order to destroy conditions,
particularly in the construction industry.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/23071701.pdf

why is he happy to let FOM go, particularly when keeping it would leave open better options for our future trading relationship with the EU?

[killer-heels]

Well, if he's not bothered about the numbers of people coming into this country - which I'm not convinced by after he said this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/23071701.pdf

why is he happy to let FOM go, particularly when keeping it would leave open better options for our future trading relationship with the EU?

He hasnt linked it to any social issues from what i know.

Im not talking about trading relationships. If anything his stance makes more sense than the others in the Labour party like Kendall and Umunna.

[west_london_red]

Federalism meaning direct rule from Brussels, why use the word Federalism?
You will have to help me here, in what way do you expect the EU to have more control over our lives?
Your making a argument that the EU have sinister intentions, based on what.

How else would you describe it?

I would expect to see a European defence force, and harmonisation of fiscal policy, so that’s at least two way it will have more control over the lives of EU citizens.

I have my doubts about the EU, the treatment of Greek debt, refugees policy (another area the EU is having a greater role), more recently its passive response to what’s going on in Catalunya, none of that sits right with me personally.

And now I have answered your question, how about you answer the one I asked you? I’ll repeat:

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and it’s structures over its citizens lives?

[ShakaHislop]

He hasnt linked it to any social issues from what i know.

Im not talking about trading relationships. If anything his stance makes more sense than the others in the Labour party like Kendall and Umunna.

He appears to suggest immigrants have destroyed working conditions. Some British workers already believe that and harbour resentment towards immigrants as a result, which is a social problem the Labour leader is contributing to with comments such as that.

Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't see how him not willing to act on his own personal, positive views on immigration makes him any more noble than Burnham and co. Do you believe the likes of Burnham, Umunna etc genuinely have an issue with FOM, or do you believe they're just talking tough on the topic for electoral purposes? If it's the latter, how is what Corbyn is doing any different and why should he be exempt from the criticism they receive?

[killer-heels]

He appears to suggest immigrants have destroyed working conditions. Some British workers already believe that and harbour resentment towards immigrants as a result, which is a social problem the Labour leader is contributing to with comments such as that.

Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't see how him not willing to act on his own personal, positive views on immigration makes him any more noble than Burnham and co. Do you believe the likes of Burnham, Umunna etc genuinely have an issue with FOM, or do you believe they're just talking tough on the topic for electoral purposes? If it's the latter, how is what Corbyn is doing any different and why should he be exempt from the criticism they receive?

He suggested that employers have imported migrants on low wages and hasnt suggested that immigrants have led to any social issues in communities.

Yes, I believe some MP’s like Burnham, Flint etc have genuine issues with immigration and freedom of movement.

[Jiminy Cricket]

He suggested that employers have imported migrants on low wages and hasnt suggested that immigrants have led to any social issues in communities.

Yes, I believe some MP’s like Burnham, Flint etc have genuine issues with immigration and freedom of movement.

For clarification, to which Kinnock did you refer a few posts back? I assumed Neil, but another poster suggested you might have meant his son, Stephen. I'm in the US (and have been from way before Stephen became and MP), so what appears obvious to most here might not be the case for me.

[ShakaHislop]

He suggested that employers have imported migrants on low wages and hasnt suggested that immigrants have led to any social issues in communities.

Yes, I believe some MP’s like Burnham, Flint etc have genuine issues with immigration and freedom of movement.

If he believes the employers are to blame, why not solely focus on actions towards employers and keep FOM, rather than stop migrants' (and our) free movement?

[oldfordie]

How else would you describe it?

I would expect to see a European defence force, and harmonisation of fiscal policy, so that’s at least two way it will have more control over the lives of EU citizens.

I have my doubts about the EU, the treatment of Greek debt, refugees policy (another area the EU is having a greater role), more recently its passive response to what’s going on in Catalunya, none of that sits right with me personally.

And now I have answered your question, how about you answer the one I asked you? I’ll repeat:

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and it’s structures over its citizens lives?

Can the UK stop this EU army coming about if they remain members.
I can't see it getting off the ground myself but it's all hypothetical.
Harmonization of fiscal policy's, impossible. fiscal policys change as our own economic circumstances change. we have budgets for this reason.
Greece brought their own problems on themselves.
The EU can't win either way, theres a refugee crisis and it's tearing countrys apart. they are getting swamped with refugees, all the governments in the EU work out a plan to share the burden and it's portrayed as the EU ordering us to take in refuges. anyway we did ourselves proud,we kept our sovereignty, we managed to stop children fleeing for their lives a safe haven.
As for your question, how do I know what the future brings but I trust the EUs intentions of trying to make a better world 100 times more than our government.
They ordered us to clean up our shitty beaches and environment. bastards, that cost us money we could have used to give the rich tax cuts. the old jokes about swallowing a turd while swimming are a thing of the past.
Done the same on workers rights and human rights. all cost money the Torys could have saved for tax cuts.
My point is the EUs aim is to make a better world for us all. if you view their intentions as sinister then wait till you see what sort of world we live in 20yrs time compared to the rest of the EU.

[west_london_red]

Can the UK stop this EU army coming about if they remain members.
I can't see it getting off the ground myself but it's all hypothetical.
Harmonization of fiscal policy's, impossible. fiscal policys change as our own economic circumstances change. we have budgets for this reason.
Greece brought their own problems on themselves.
The EU can't win either way, theres a refugee crisis and it's tearing countrys apart. they are getting swamped with refugees, all the governments in the EU work out a plan to share the burden and it's portrayed as the EU ordering us to take in refuges. anyway we did ourselves proud,we kept our sovereignty, we managed to stop children fleeing for their lives a safe haven.
As for your question, how do I know what the future brings but I trust the EUs intentions of trying to make a better world 100 times more than our government.
They ordered us to clean up our shitty beaches and environment. bastards, that cost us money we could have used to give the rich tax cuts. the old jokes about swallowing a turd while swimming are a thing of the past.
Done the same on workers rights and human rights. all cost money the Torys could have saved for tax cuts.
My point is the EUs aim is to make a better world for us all. if you view their intentions as sinister then wait till you see what sort of world we live in 20yrs time compared to the rest of the EU.

Personally I think an EU army is inevitable once we leave as the UK was probably it’s biggest opponent.

Likewise, for the Euro to succeed in the long run I think some fiscal harmonisation is inevitable (watch what happens with Ireland’s corporate tax levels, that will be the clue for me). But having a common currency with such huge difference in levels of spending and taxation I don’t think is sustainable.

Yes, Greece did create its own problems. But did Germany create its own refugee problem? That’s not to knock Germany or Merkel for what she did, but when Italy and Greece had problems with the number of refugees they were told to deal with it themselves, when Germany couldn’t cope with the numbers then it became a European problem to solve. That bothers me greatly, and likewise the EUs silence over the actions of the Spanish state. If that was Turkey or elsewhere the EU would be very much on its high horse.

You can continue to compare the current government to the EU, but that in itself is a comparison against a very low base.

[oldfordie]

Personally I think an EU army is inevitable once we leave as the UK was probably it’s biggest opponent.

Likewise, for the Euro to succeed in the long run I think some fiscal harmonisation is inevitable (watch what happens with Ireland’s corporate tax levels, that will be the clue for me). But having a common currency with such huge difference in levels of spending and taxation I don’t think is sustainable.

Yes, Greece did create its own problems. But did Germany create its own refugee problem? That’s not to knock Germany or Merkel for what she did, but when Italy and Greece had problems with the number of refugees they were told to deal with it themselves, when Germany couldn’t cope with the numbers then it became a European problem to solve. That bothers me greatly, and likewise the EUs silence over the actions of the Spanish state. If that was Turkey or elsewhere the EU would be very much on its high horse.

You can continue to compare the current government to the EU, but that in itself is a comparison against a very low base.

Yeah, Ive never understood the logic of having the Euro, would hate us to leave and be forced to accept it as part of the conditions.
The way I remember it is the the EU asked other countrys to take in refugees to help Italy and Greece.
I am comparing the EU to any of our governments, making improvements to our lives in the way the EU have is not very high up in their list of priorities, I remember the people of Sunderland being told about all the local facilities and attractions all funded by the EU, they were very surprised. I think most people don't realize just how much the EU funded projects has improved their lives, even a walk around your local town center with nice places to sit down and relax. all adds to the quality of life and will be missed when it goes.

[ShakaHislop]

I've just watched Emily Thornberry's interview on Marr today. She repeated what Starmer said last week that we will leave the EU in March 2019, but that they negotiations on the future trade deal to continue. What happens if Labour don't like the outcome of those extended negotiations? We'll already officially be out and on merely transitional terms, so we're back to accepting a bad deal or leaving with no deal.

[oldfordie]

I've just watched Emily Thornberry's interview on Marr today. She repeated what Starmer said last week that we will leave the EU in March 2019, but that they negotiations on the future trade deal to continue. What happens if Labour don't like the outcome of those extended negotiations? We'll already officially be out and on merely transitional terms, so we're back to accepting a bad deal or leaving with no deal.

Yep, we need a transitional deal but we also need to ask for the art 50 deadline to be extended as well.

[west_london_red]

Yeah, Ive never understood the logic of having the Euro, would hate us to leave and be forced to accept it as part of the conditions.
The way I remember it is the the EU asked other countrys to take in refugees to help Italy and Greece.
I am comparing the EU to any of our governments, making improvements to our lives in the way the EU have is not very high up in their list of priorities, I remember the people of Sunderland being told about all the local facilities and attractions all funded by the EU, they were very surprised. I think most people don't realize just how much the EU funded projects has improved their lives, even a walk around your local town center with nice places to sit down and relax. all adds to the quality of life and will be missed when it goes.

And the Euro is part of where my cynicism about the EU comes from. Certain countries in the EU, primarily Germany have benefited hugely from the Euro at the expense of the countries of Southern Europe, and then the Germans proceed to lecture those same countries about their economic performance and lazyness. Pre-Euro the DM would have appreciated, the Lira and Dracma deprecated and balance restored but that doesn’t happen when your using the same currency. I find it hard to believe that this wasn’t considered or foreseen by anyone in the EU.

As for the refugees, I think your wrong. When it was only Italy and Greece dealing with refugees, the EU pointed towards the Dublin deal which said where refugees first landed in the EU was where they should seek asylum. When Germany started having to deal with refugees then the EU started talking about quotas across the EU nations.

[oldfordie]

And the Euro is part of where my cynicism about the EU comes from. Certain countries in the EU, primarily Germany have benefited hugely from the Euro at the expense of the countries of Southern Europe, and then the Germans proceed to lecture those same countries about their economic performance and lazyness. Pre-Euro the DM would have appreciated, the Lira and Dracma deprecated and balance restored but that doesn’t happen when your using the same currency. I find it hard to believe that this wasn’t considered or foreseen by anyone in the EU.

As for the refugees, I think your wrong. When it was only Italy and Greece dealing with refugees, the EU pointed towards the Dublin deal which said where refugees first landed in the EU was where they should seek asylum. When Germany started having to deal with refugees then the EU started talking about quotas across the EU nations.

Ive no problems with people having certain issues with the EU but I find it shocking they way priorities have been tossed aside for reasons that annoy rather than actually affecting their lives.
Even if we did have unelected bureaucrats it's normally no big deal to most people, they hardly ever vote in a GE never mind a EU MEP election, we know this because the turnouts are awful. it reminds me of the mud thrown at Labour over the debt, right wing stirring up the shit and everyone suddenly cares. the Torys get into power, the debt rockets and those same people arent arsed.
They are being played like a fiddle.
It's astonishing, they voted to leave for certain reasons, those reasons are now being ignored yet their still insisting Brexit goes ahead. again, their being played like a fiddle.
I wonder what the next issue will be for the right wing to con the working class into believing they feel strong about it.

[Alan_X]

And the Euro is part of where my cynicism about the EU comes from. Certain countries in the EU, primarily Germany have benefited hugely from the Euro at the expense of the countries of Southern Europe, and then the Germans proceed to lecture those same countries about their economic performance and lazyness. Pre-Euro the DM would have appreciated, the Lira and Dracma deprecated and balance restored but that doesn’t happen when your using the same currency. I find it hard to believe that this wasn’t considered or foreseen by anyone in the EU.

As for the refugees, I think your wrong. When it was only Italy and Greece dealing with refugees, the EU pointed towards the Dublin deal which said where refugees first landed in the EU was where they should seek asylum. When Germany started having to deal with refugees then the EU started talking about quotas across the EU nations.

And what do either of those have to do with Britain leaving the EU?

[Sangria]

And what do either of those have to do with Britain leaving the EU?

Leavers have had it up to here with the Euro and the Schengen rules imposed on Britain. The Euro Army and the prospect of Turkey joining the EU was just too much to bear.

[classycarra]

And what do either of those have to do with Britain leaving the EU?

I find it really odd that feelings and emotions play so heavily in people's views on international trade relations and agreements (not aimed at WLR, who voted remain, just a general point). Well, not odd that people would have feelings like this just odd that they can't see that state to state interactions should sort of rise above that.

Still baffled anyone would think that putting this kind of specialist and nuanced decision to the voting public. Thank fuck noone has suggested doing anything similar with state defence or public health actions.

[Alan_X]

I find it really odd that feelings and emotions play so heavily in people's views on international trade relations and agreements (not aimed at WLR, who voted remain, just a general point). Well, not odd that people would have feelings like this just odd that they can't see that state to state interactions should sort of rise above that.

Still baffled anyone would think that putting this kind of specialist and nuanced decision to the voting public. Thank fuck noone has suggested doing anything similar with state defence or public health actions.

And we have (had) a veto anyway and opted out of the Euro. The idea that people wanted out of the EU because the Germans were nasty to the Greeks is bizarre. If you have a problem with bigger countries being nasty to smaller countries then you need to opt out of the UK.

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit: Business lobby groups call for transition deal clarity

Britain's five biggest business lobby groups are calling for an urgent Brexit transition deal, or, they warn, the UK risks losing jobs and investment.

In a joint letter being sent to Brexit Secretary David Davis, the groups, including the Institute of Directors and CBI, will say time is running out.

A government spokesman said the talks were "making real, tangible progress".

Sources told the BBC the letter is still being finalised but is likely to be sent on Monday.

The other lobby groups backing the letter are the British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, and the EEF manufacturing body.

There has been a growing anxiety among businesses at what they see as a lack of progress in the Brexit negotiations.

One of the five groups - which together represent firms employing millions of people - told the BBC it was felt a joint letter would "emphasise our wish for a deal and clarity".

They say it is important that the Brexit transition period matches as closely as possible current trading arrangements with the EU.

Theresa May has suggested a period of about two years, with the UK and EU trading on broadly similar terms to now and payments to Brussels to meet Britain's budget commitments.

But although EU negotiators have agreed to start preliminary work on a future relationship, they still want more concessions on the UK's so-called "divorce payment" before starting talks on trade and transition.

Sky News and the Guardian reported they had seen the draft letter, which says an agreement on a transition "is needed as soon as possible, as companies are preparing to make serious decisions at the start of 2018, which will have consequences for jobs and investment in the UK".

The letter reportedly adds: "It is vital that companies only have to undertake one adjustment as a result of the UK's withdrawal, not two."

Concern about the loss of UK jobs and investment was underlined last week when the boss of investment banking giant Goldman Sachs, Lloyd Blankfein, tweeted that he will be "spending a lot more time" in Frankfurt.

Earlier this month, the deputy governor of the Bank of England, Sam Woods, warned that the UK and the EU must agree a transition deal by Christmas or companies would start triggering contingency plans.

And in a survey released on Monday, the EEF said that Brexit uncertainty was holding back the plans of manufacturing firms to invest in new plants and machinery.

Mr Davis is due to travel to Paris for Brexit talks on Monday after France appeared to emerge as the most hardline EU member state when it comes to the divorce bill.

The prime minister is also due to update the Commons on Monday on the progress made during last week's summit of EU leaders in Brussels.

It is thought that Mrs May will say that negotiations are "deeply technical", but she has not forgotten that the lives of millions of people are at the heart of the process.

A spokesman for the Department for Exiting the European Union said the prime minister proposed a strictly time-limited implementation period in her Florence speech.

He said: "We are making real and tangible progress in a number of vital areas in negotiations. However, many of the issues that remain are linked to the discussions we need to have on our future relationship.

"That is why we are pleased that the EU has now agreed to start internal preparatory discussions on the framework for transitional arrangements as well as our future partnership."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41716284

[ShakaHislop]

Mr Davis is due to travel to Paris for Brexit talks on Monday after France appeared to emerge as the most hardline EU member state when it comes to the divorce bill.

I thought the UK wasn't allowed to negotiate individually with one EU Member State? Talks were between the UK and the EU-27 as a whole.

[stara]

And the Euro is part of where my cynicism about the EU comes from. Certain countries in the EU, primarily Germany have benefited hugely from the Euro at the expense of the countries of Southern Europe, and then the Germans proceed to lecture those same countries about their economic performance and lazyness. Pre-Euro the DM would have appreciated, the Lira and Dracma deprecated and balance restored but that doesn’t happen when your using the same currency. I find it hard to believe that this wasn’t considered or foreseen by anyone in the EU.

Are you demanding currency manipulation, so that Euro would be artificially maintained far above its market level to benefit the US/UK at the expense of Germany and other euro zone members?

[ShakaHislop]

I thought the UK wasn't allowed to negotiate individually with one EU Member State? Talks were between the UK and the EU-27 as a whole.

Ah, right.

Government sources told Sky News the dinner between the Brexit secretary and French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian had been in the diary for "several weeks".

"It's part of an ongoing engagement programme across the EU with key opinion formers," said one government figure. "It's not a negotiation round."

http://news.sky.com/story/david-davis-set-for-paris-talks-after-french-demand-more-brexit-divorce-cash-11092845