Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1066176 times)

Offline Penfold78

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #40 on: January 7, 2018, 01:28:43 pm »
Great analysis PoP. While Klopp will be looking very carefully at the keeper and the 6 he'll also need to grapple with the continual challenge of ensuring there is quality in depth across the whole eleven. Without stating the bleeding obvious - we need this if we have CL and title race ambitions. And that for me is an equally big challenge. 

I'd like to know which positions you think have adequate depth already, beyond those you've already labelled....


Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,608
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #41 on: January 7, 2018, 01:43:05 pm »
Hats off, great write up and and excellent upper in the wake of Coutinho departure.

Looking at that Dortmund side is also encouraging. An example of how far a side can go if there is a clear plan, regardless of losing key players.

It cost them in the end though. No club can consistently lose its best players and hope to compete.

Offline redtrev

  • Running dog of CAPITALISM
  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #42 on: January 7, 2018, 02:03:22 pm »
Great post and timing is perfect. Bit of a psychologist is POP ?! 😉

Offline aw1991

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,093
  • Love Firmino, hate bastards
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #43 on: January 7, 2018, 02:15:29 pm »
It cost them in the end though. No club can consistently lose its best players and hope to compete.
They aren't as good now as they were then, but I wouldn't say they aren't competitive. Ultimately, yes, lossing three key players like they did after the 14/15 season would harm any side, but at the end they reached the CL last season and at the moment will reach the CL this season. I think they would be in a far better position if they kept Tuchel and not replaced him with bloody Peter Bosz.

For what it worth, I don't see us going down their route of lossing key player(s) on yearly basis.

Offline Passmaster Molby

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,082
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #44 on: January 7, 2018, 02:27:06 pm »
A double swoop for Fabinho and Lemar from Monaco in the summer might well complete that Klopp style team PoP talks about (barring a much needed new keeper)

With Fabinho at 6, Keita at 8 and Lallana as the 10 it gives us a hell of an engine room to build the attacking flair and speed of Mane, Lemar and Salah around. With Ox, Wijnaldum, Firminho and Henderson on the bench the strength in depth would be impressive.

Offline kasperoff

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,462
  • What happened to Sabu?
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #45 on: January 7, 2018, 02:54:07 pm »
This is a very thought provoking piece and starts many points of discussion.

Firstly, it reiterates my stance on Coutinho. Wonderfully talented player though he is, losing him should not be too disruptive to our team. You could argue a player of his calibre makes any team better, but our stats with and without him tell the story. We win and lose at the same ratio with or without him. He is not central to a Klopp team.

I can't agree on the keeper situation. There isn't a scenario when we wouldn't be better off with a De Gea in the sticks, rather than a Mignolet. It's such a binary position. De Gea pretty much won Man Utd 3 points against Arsenal a month ago on his own. It's not the first time. Man Utd would not be in the top 4 without him

Thanks for defining the roles in the team. I know you say it's bread and butter, but it's still nice top have it spelled out. The #6 needs sorting. None of Hendo, Gini, or Can can do this job as you have described it. A true shield who will patrol that area of the pitch like a yard dog. Take real ownership and pride in making that part of the pitch their territory. It's the Mascher/Kante/Makelele role.

We could probably also use some depth up front. Sturridge's days look numbered. He's too injury prone and even when fit, doesn't seem like an ideal fit. Ings is a bit of a mystery at the moment. He was playing well before he was injured and he seems to love to work and press from the front. Surely an ideal candidate for a Klopp team? I don't see a return for Origi. I was very disappointed with him last season. He had a good run in the team due to injury and played really badly. He came up short when we needed him most. I predicted at the time he'd be loaded out and then probably sold, and so it seems to have come to pass. Solanke is very raw at the moment. Makes a nuisance of himself and seems keen, but lacks that touch of class that strikers need at the sharp end of the premier league.

The full-back situation seems to have sorted itself out. We looked weak in those positions coming into the season, but now suddenly look OK. Moreno improves, Robertson seizes his opportunity with both hands, TAA and Gomez develop nicely. Then we have Clyne coming back in. We've gone from looking poor, to looking decent. I'd still argue we can be better in those positions, but I'd look at that as a longer term project.

So it's keeper, #6 and a #9 for me. Then longer term, I'd be looking out for killer full-backs. What price to you put on players for these positions? It's a strange time with the fees like they are, but surely if we identify a top player to address one of our weaknesses, then we just go all in? If suddenly Kante becomes available for £60m do we pay it, or do we pass? Should we be looking to pay the buy-out for Oblak? These fees seem obscene, but if they are addressing our key weaknesses, then surely we are getting value?

It also brings up another topic. Having faith in a manager and giving them time to execute their vision fully. Klopp still hasn't finished building yet. Yes, he's implemented his vision on what he has, but he still will not be happy with his personnel. He needs patience and time from the fan base. It also highlights just how damaging it is to chop and change managers. You will simply never get to see the fully finished article.
I think the same, can't stand him, but if you could have a £1million pound cheque or steve bruces head hollowed out and filled with pound coins which would you have?

Offline penga

  • What you get if you cross Pingu with Jenga.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,662
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #46 on: January 7, 2018, 02:58:10 pm »
We definitely need a 6 with Can leaving. Otherwise there is only Henderson and with the rotation system we would be short of 6s. Gini could be moulded there but isn't very tall or physically imposing and doesn't he look like the sort that is going to get stuck in consistently and make high tackle numbers like a Mascherano so I would prefer we get a new 6. It just makes too much sense and our transfers of late have been making a lot of sense, however there haven't been any links yet for a 6. As people say Fabinho seems like a good option who is tall, reasonably fast, composed and good on the ball in both passing and dribbling. He is also one of the more obtainable targets one with him publicly stating he will leave at the end of the season and another Brazilian coming in will help Firmino gain a new buddy.

As for GK I haven't watched Alisson aside from hilights but surely he is realistic compared to Oblak and another Brazilian. Looks like a real good reflex shot stopper and the stats back that up apparently. Seems pretty fast and agile, able to sweep and come outside his box to header Neuer style. No idea about his cross claiming but he is tall, however traditionally Latin style GKs are weaker in this area usually.

Offline JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,724
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #47 on: January 7, 2018, 03:03:41 pm »
Interesting post

The only thing that sticks out is the idea that because he didn’t have an elite keeper at Dortmund he doesn’t need one here
Our problem is we don’t even have a league average keeper
System wise the biggest problem is just how slow Mignolet is - he compromises our ability to play a high line and maybe if he doesn’t want a new keeper (encouraging rumours he does) Karius will be tried again

By the way it’ll cause wailing and gnashing of teeth but I still think he likes Henderson a lot more than RAWK does and it wouldn’t surprise me if him and Keita play as a 2 next year but we’ll see. Not sure he wants to exactly replicate his midfield structure from Dortmund with this squad in this league - he’d probably have done it sooner if he did
« Last Edit: January 7, 2018, 03:05:25 pm by JackWard33 »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #48 on: January 7, 2018, 03:13:58 pm »
Interesting post

The only thing that sticks out is the idea that because he didn’t have an elite keeper at Dortmund he doesn’t need one here
Our problem is we don’t even have a league average keeper
System wise the biggest problem is just how slow Mignolet is - he compromises our ability to play a high line and maybe if he doesn’t want a new keeper (encouraging rumours he does) Karius will be tried again

By the way it’ll cause wailing and gnashing of teeth but I still think he likes Henderson a lot more than RAWK does and it wouldn’t surprise me if him and Keita play as a 2 next year but we’ll see. Not sure he wants to exactly replicate his midfield structure from Dortmund with this squad in this league - he’d probably have done it sooner if he did

Just to be precise - I'm not saying that because Klopp didn't have an elite keeper at Borussia that he doesn't need one at Liverpool. I was just pointing out that as much we (for the most part) as supporters are crying out for a better keeper, Klopp may actually be genuine when he says he's happy with the keeper situation. Weidenfeller was a league-average keeper, numbers-wise, but Klopp stuck with him - which suggests that he sees the keeper as less important to his system than, say, Guardiola would.

Klopp always struck me as very old-school: he believes you should separate the fitness training from the technical/tactical training; he seems to favour old-school roles on the field, with the balance of the team based on pairs of positions; and with this in mind, maybe he only sees the keeper as the shot-stopper and cross-catcher, and nothing more. Going by his persistence with Weidenfeller, Mignolet, and his happiness to switch Mignolet and Karius in and out of the team based on what competition we're playing that week, perhaps the keeper position is Klopp's "blind-spot", the way the defensive mid position was Rodgers'?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,724
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #49 on: January 7, 2018, 03:24:40 pm »
Just to be precise - I'm not saying that because Klopp didn't have an elite keeper at Borussia that he doesn't need one at Liverpool. I was just pointing out that as much we (for the most part) as supporters are crying out for a better keeper, Klopp may actually be genuine when he says he's happy with the keeper situation. Weidenfeller was a league-average keeper, numbers-wise, but Klopp stuck with him - which suggests that he sees the keeper as less important to his system than, say, Guardiola would.

Klopp always struck me as very old-school: he believes you should separate the fitness training from the technical/tactical training; he seems to favour old-school roles on the field, with the balance of the team based on pairs of positions; and with this in mind, maybe he only sees the keeper as the shot-stopper and cross-catcher, and nothing more. Going by his persistence with Weidenfeller, Mignolet, and his happiness to switch Mignolet and Karius in and out of the team based on what competition we're playing that week, perhaps the keeper position is Klopp's "blind-spot", the way the defensive mid position was Rodgers'?

Yeah I agree with this and share your worries based on what he did at Dortmund and here it does seem that he’s not actually that interested in it as a position.
The only thing that’s hard to understand about that is how we constantly play so high and everything is built to control space and squeeze the opposition and then he’s happy with one of the slowest keepers I’ve ever seen. We’d run his system far better with a Lloris / Ederson type who could sweep off his line effectively.
But I do agree there’s a decent amount of evidence that it’s a blind spot

Offline Triad

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #50 on: January 7, 2018, 03:30:23 pm »
Ok so I'm going to take a different approach to a lot of you.

Has there ever been any indication that Klopp wants to repeat his Dortmund side here.The challenges that a side faces in the Bundesliga are not the same as one in the PL.I remember Germans talking that the reason their teams don't do well in Europe is that they are typical high energy,therefore you will see a lot of bottom sides finishing in the top 10 and a lot of flexiblity in movement in the table because they just can't translate that to when they are playing twice a week.Teams in the PL are lot more willing to sit deep and accept a point.

All the systems talk is rubbish because on a given day it's focus should be to maximise the ability of the players and not enforce the system on the players.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #51 on: January 7, 2018, 03:31:11 pm »


By the way it’ll cause wailing and gnashing of teeth but I still think he likes Henderson a lot more than RAWK does and it wouldn’t surprise me if him and Keita play as a 2 next year but we’ll see. Not sure he wants to exactly replicate his midfield structure from Dortmund with this squad in this league - he’d probably have done it sooner if he did

Central midfield has only ever been about three roles, I think - the stopper, the runner, and the playmaker - and the make-up of different midfields has always been about how those three roles are populated or absented. I think you might be right in that if he's happy with Henderson, then he's possibly looking for two #8s in midfield and is content to not pursue a Bender-type stopper in the middle. Although at Mainz, he had Pekovic and Babatz, who were roving defensive mids like Bender, so there's definitely at least a pattern to his thinking.
« Last Edit: January 7, 2018, 03:35:40 pm by PhaseOfPlay »
Better looking than Samie.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #52 on: January 7, 2018, 03:33:45 pm »
Ok so I'm going to take a different approach to a lot of you.

Has there ever been any indication that Klopp wants to repeat his Dortmund side here.The challenges that a side faces in the Bundesliga are not the same as one in the PL.I remember Germans talking that the reason their teams don't do well in Europe is that they are typical high energy,therefore you will see a lot of bottom sides finishing in the top 10 and a lot of flexiblity in movement in the table because they just can't translate that to when they are playing twice a week.Teams in the PL are lot more willing to sit deep and accept a point.

All the systems talk is rubbish because on a given day it's focus should be to maximise the ability of the players and not enforce the system on the players.

Every manager has a way they look at the game. This includes formation, method of attack, method of defence, set pieces and game management. And the system of play generally doesn't change much as a manager gets older. Rafa will always look for midfield control, Guardiola will always look to maximise possession, Simeone will always look to defend and counter, etc. The formations might change, but the system - i.e. the general philosophy that they approach the game with - doesn't.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline the 92A

  • Alberto Incontidor. Peneus. Phantom Thread Locker. Mr Bus. But there'll be another one along soon enough. Almost as bad as Jim...
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,029
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #53 on: January 7, 2018, 03:35:44 pm »
Firstly great article for the site. Educational without being patronising and raises decent discussion replacing Coutiniho with like is very difficult if not impossible and you can understand a level of collective depression but as Klopp is very much about the whole we can all get the concept of a decent goalkeeper and no 6 improving the team more than looking for a direct replacement.


Even without the analysis the two positions jump out as weaknesses for anyone who's watched us recently no the fullbacks have sorted themselves out. I'm not so sure Klopp is content with the keepers. For two reasons, one I can accept that most managers have a template or a footballing DNA but the best can adapt and are shaped by experience. Think Shanks after Red Star Belgrade, when we were given a lesson on playing out from the defence. Out went Larry Lloyd and In came Thompson and the start of us playing with cultured Centrebacks. I get the impression Klopps experience of this league is teaching him that he may need to reconsider the importance of a keeper when so many teams will sit back deny you space and rely on aggressive set plays. Secondly how much was the lack of emphasis on a top keeper necessity rather than principal hes always looked for ways to negate the need to have to spend top dollar and maybe this was more about cutting his cloth to fit the pattern at Dortmund. I hope so as a decent would be a n efficient way to improve us
Still Dreaming of a Harry Quinn

Offline Triad

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #54 on: January 7, 2018, 03:45:09 pm »
Every manager has a way they look at the game. This includes formation, method of attack, method of defence, set pieces and game management. And the system of play generally doesn't change much as a manager gets older. Rafa will always look for midfield control, Guardiola will always look to maximise possession, Simeone will always look to defend and counter, etc. The formations might change, but the system - i.e. the general philosophy that they approach the game with - doesn't.
See this is where I disagree,system !=philosophy.We know Klopp's philosophy,seeking possession high up the pitch and quick attacks when we win the ball.But a system is used to win games and to maximise the players skills and neutralise the opponents.You would be stupid not too. Klopp's seen that Salah's in brilliant scoring form,so we are playing a staggered front 3 with Salah staying up more often as  a 2nd striker and Mane dropping more playing as a 10 with support from Robertson on the overlap.

I genuinely don't think KDB is a Guardiola player,he is too focused on the final ball and a bit wasteful.You have already seen Aguero having problems with Pep,but they both still play because they are quality.





Offline Something Worse

  • Master of prehistoric and fantasy creature-based onomatopoeia
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,891
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #55 on: January 7, 2018, 03:48:38 pm »
Phenomenal read, really should be an article in a newspaper. Thanks
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

Hey Claus, fuck off.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #56 on: January 7, 2018, 03:52:06 pm »
See this is where I disagree,system !=philosophy.We know Klopp's philosophy,seeking possession high up the pitch and quick attacks when we win the ball.But a system is used to win games and to maximise the players skills and neutralise the opponents.You would be stupid not too. Klopp's seen that Salah's in brilliant scoring form,so we are playing a staggered front 3 with Salah staying up more often as  a 2nd striker and Mane dropping more playing as a 10 with support from Robertson on the overlap.

I genuinely don't think KDB is a Guardiola player,he is too focused on the final ball and a bit wasteful.You have already seen Aguero having problems with Pep,but they both still play because they are quality.

Sure - but that still doesn't change the idea that managers have an ideal vision of the game that they are always working towards. If they didn't (and some don't, granted - looking at you, Alan Pardew and Harry Redknapp), then they wouldn't need coaches.

The tactical game is made up of the principles of play. The tactics of the game usually emphasise one principle over others, because generally - as Rafa said once - you can't pursue one principle without negating another. It truly is the short blanket. So managers who believe in tactics will generally have to choose one or the other, whether they have the players or not. If they don't have them, they will usually use the transfer system to bring in the players they need. Why else do they choose the players they choose? Why did Klopp bring in Salah and Mane, and Keita - three attackers with a fair amount of speed in their legs? It's because he sees the penetration principle as the most important part of the attack - more so than width, mobility, depth, or creativity. We don't play on the counter BECAUSE we have Mane and Salah. We bought Mane and Salah because Klopp wanted to be able to play on the counter with speed. There's a plan behind it all. Otherwise we would never know what we're getting with any manager, for any club, when they change clubs.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline jepovic

  • Only interested in the "prestigious" games, so won't be celebrating anything less.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,667
  • Meh sd f
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #57 on: January 7, 2018, 03:56:51 pm »
Great analysis, although I think Klopp has shown that he can be quite flexible with how he uses players and tactics. He also likes versatile players that can take several roles, like AOC.

My worry is that we simply lack technical quality in midfield. We lack the skill to play ourselves out of a high press, or break down a low defense. Henderson, Can and Gini all like to have space and to see things ahead of them, and AOC isn't different IMO. Coutinho is pretty unique in his skill and 360 degree vision, which makes him very hard to get to. Lallana is a Coutinho light and can do a bit of that, but otherwise our midfield just lacks quality. It reminds me of the time we had Lucas and Mascherano as CMs, two great but technically limited players.

We never replaced Gerrard or Suarez like for like, and we won't replace Coutinho like for like. Players at that level are always a bit unique, and they are good enough that managers change their tactics to fit them.

The positive is that our scouting seems to be at the highest level we have seen at least since Rafa left.

Offline LiamG

  • He's loving angels instead. Cos through it all they offer him protection.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,145
  • Y.N.W.A
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #58 on: January 7, 2018, 04:23:04 pm »
Would Ndidi be a good fit for a no.6?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #59 on: January 7, 2018, 04:25:53 pm »
Would Ndidi be a good fit for a no.6?

Ndidi would.


I shall forthwith retrieve my overgarment ;D
Better looking than Samie.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #60 on: January 7, 2018, 04:26:37 pm »
Great analysis, although I think Klopp has shown that he can be quite flexible with how he uses players and tactics. He also likes versatile players that can take several roles, like AOC.

My worry is that we simply lack technical quality in midfield. We lack the skill to play ourselves out of a high press, or break down a low defense. Henderson, Can and Gini all like to have space and to see things ahead of them, and AOC isn't different IMO. Coutinho is pretty unique in his skill and 360 degree vision, which makes him very hard to get to. Lallana is a Coutinho light and can do a bit of that, but otherwise our midfield just lacks quality. It reminds me of the time we had Lucas and Mascherano as CMs, two great but technically limited players.

We never replaced Gerrard or Suarez like for like, and we won't replace Coutinho like for like. Players at that level are always a bit unique, and they are good enough that managers change their tactics to fit them.

The positive is that our scouting seems to be at the highest level we have seen at least since Rafa left.

Probably because our manager seems to have more say in the process than at any time since 2010?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,608
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #61 on: January 7, 2018, 04:49:15 pm »
Probably because our manager seems to have more say in the process than at any time since 2010?

Its improved prior to Klopp.

Offline Clint Eastwood

  • The man with no name
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,277
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #62 on: January 7, 2018, 04:53:41 pm »
Good post PoP.

It's therefore pretty clear that the areas of focus over the summer are GK and midfield. There's debate over whether Klopp really wants a 'tackler' (Bender) in the team. When you set the team out in the way you have it, for me, highlights why our midfield is so naff at times... rather, most of the time. Henderson, Can, Wijnaldum, Milner don't excel at any of those role - tackling, passing, dribbling... even shooting. They're all (bar Can), good runners though. I'm curious to see what will become of them. My assumption right now is that obviously Can leaves, and the others become purely squad players. Albeit, very handy players for when the fixtures pile up.

Offline McrRed

  • Member of International Hill Climbers Group. Only gets happy endings at Christmas.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,156
  • In the town where I was born
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #63 on: January 7, 2018, 04:56:23 pm »
Ndidi would.


I shall forthwith retrieve my overgarment ;D
[emoji4]

Offline Crimson_Tank

  • Rhyming Slang. RAWK Virgil. Knows a proper spit-roast when he sees one.....something to do with the law of the bi.....Is truly a giant amongst the short staff.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,749
  • "Time is an illusion, Lunchtime, doubly so." F.P.
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #64 on: January 7, 2018, 05:12:58 pm »
Excellent read and analysis PoP.

Gives us all food for thought regarding the departure of Phil and how each of our current players fit into the Klopp ideal set up.

I think what I most enjoyed about it was the bit where you explained that Klopp's system can work well with what we call "average" players, as they will have clearly defined roles and know what is required of them in the set up. However, like most of RAWK (and indeed many Liverpool fans) I would rather see players of the highest quality in every position.

Most of all I am hoping that we sign a #6 (and perhaps a keeper).

I watched a YouTube video and decided that Paul Konchesky looked like a player.
A dead animal is a dead animal. And a piece of meat is a piece of meat.

Offline JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,724
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #65 on: January 7, 2018, 05:14:20 pm »
Probably because our manager seems to have more say in the process than at any time since 2010?

We’re also using analytics a lot more accurately. There’s enough evidence that when scouts, statistical analysts and Klopp agree on a player we get a good one

Offline Djozer

  • Ujpest
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,526
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #66 on: January 7, 2018, 05:16:33 pm »
Ndidi would.


I shall forthwith retrieve my overgarment ;D
:lmao

Hope we sign him now, just for future repetition of that pun.

Offline sinnermichael

  • I copy other people's photoshops and twitter posts and texts and pretend they're mine.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,723
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #67 on: January 7, 2018, 05:18:14 pm »
As weird as it sounds, I don't think Coutinho was necessarily a Klopp type player anyway (not a slight on his ability). Gerrard was in the same position under Benitez and Fowler under Houllier and they were two of our most gifted players ever. The stats speak in that favour.

From the players we started out with, I think only Lallana and Firmino are perfect fits for their roles in Klopp's vision. The rest are already replaced by players he signed, and with a sublime success rate. I'm more excited to see his own player come in, than sad about Coutinho.

Offline Triad

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #68 on: January 7, 2018, 05:21:43 pm »
Probably because our manager seems to have more say in the process than at any time since 2010?
Tbf Salah should have been signed 3 years ago.You can't blame Rodgers for that.

Offline Coolie High

  • bury Regular. My opinions are facts, FYI. (whisper it but doesn't understand midfielders)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,606
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #69 on: January 7, 2018, 05:24:49 pm »
As weird as it sounds, I don't think Coutinho was necessarily a Klopp type player anyway (not a slight on his ability). Gerrard was in the same position under Benitez and Fowler under Houllier and they were two of our most gifted players ever. The stats speak in that favour.

From the players we started out with, I think only Lallana and Firmino are perfect fits for their roles in Klopp's vision. The rest are already replaced by players he signed, and with a sublime success rate. I'm more excited to see his own player come in, than sad about Coutinho.

That's what special players are though, pep for example hasn't ever played with a false 9 consistently since he left Messi.

Great post btw Pop.

Online rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,257
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #70 on: January 7, 2018, 05:50:02 pm »
Cracking read that. I loved watching Dortmund play but never bothered actually studying what they did, good to see it explained.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline jepovic

  • Only interested in the "prestigious" games, so won't be celebrating anything less.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,667
  • Meh sd f
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #71 on: January 7, 2018, 06:36:38 pm »
Probably because our manager seems to have more say in the process than at any time since 2010?
No idea why, but the results are pretty clear.

I see lots of demands for replacing Coutinho with another star, an established top player. I don't think that will happen. It's not FSGs strategy, and it is not Klopps way of working.

Regarding GK, I think Klopp had much higher expectations on Karius, who came here as one of Bundesligas top keepers. I have no idea what went wrong there, but the plan was surely that Karius would be number one now.

Offline rafathegaffa83

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 41,942
  • Dutch Class
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #72 on: January 7, 2018, 07:05:59 pm »
Great post PoP

But that leaves the #6 position. Possibly the next most important position on the field after the keeper and striker, the #6 position has been cause for debate for Liverpool fans since the departure of Mascherano and the in-and-out nature of Lucas' latter time at the club. Henderson does a serviceable job, but he's injury-prone these days, and the quality of his long pass delivery is not exactly in the Alonso category. Klopp, again, seems happy to retain Henderson as his starting #6, but in the summer, is it possible that this could change? With Van Dijk marshalling the troops on the back four, will we see Henderson continue as the midfield stopper, or will we dip into the market for someone more akin to Bender (Sven, not the Futurama robot – although sometimes it seemed like he was made of as much metal as his cartoon namesake)?

As much as a GK seems the obvious priority, that holding midfielder position to me is the key area. I've personally thought since Mascherano left, we've been dying for a player who can act there at a shield. It's the number one area I've wanted to see fixed for about the last 7-8 windows. I think given Henderson's injuries it definitely needs to be an area to address, since particularly with Can going it looks like we will have a severely limited number of players to slot into that area (I can't see Klopp the likes of Gruijic an opportunity there at the moment).

Online afc tukrish

  • How long for them sausages? Maggie May's Mythical Turkish Delight. RAWK's Expert Sausage Monster! Oakley Cannonier is fucking boss. Likes blowing his friends and undoing their nuts? Who nose?!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,762
  • This looks like a nice spot...
    • Flat Back Four
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #73 on: January 7, 2018, 07:09:23 pm »


 Why did Klopp bring in Salah and Mane, and Keita - three attackers with a fair amount of speed in their legs?

And Oxlade Chamberlain... And The Virge...

One of the things that is important with his style is pace, during both transitions.

And he loves the hard vertical runs from the half space diamonds every time the ball goes wide.

In keeping with your theme, to play in Jurgen's template, speed is one of the highly-rated attributes.

He's been moving for players that possess that attribute.

I'd not at all be surprised to see us go for Lemar ahead of Mahrez because of it...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline PoetryInMotion

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,803
  • YNWA
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #74 on: January 7, 2018, 07:17:05 pm »
Wonderful OP..

When Klopp took over, even though we had just challenged for the title an year and a half ago then, it always seemed like he had massive task to do. Our team was bereft of attacking ideas, they were static and we obviously had defensive issues, which Rodgers tried to hide/mask under the Back 3, but he never really sought a long term fix for it.

It always frustrates me when people always refer to our 'defensive issues under Klopp', forgetting that he inherited them from Brendan Rodgers. Most of the individual mistakes the players have currently are from Brendan Rodgers' time. The uncertainty and the lack of communication that led to these errors and the soft center were all there.

Brendan Rodgers was a good attacking coach, but he lost his way and had too much to build again after we lost Suarez to Barcelona, Sturridge to injuries and Gerrard was at the tail end of his career. All these compounded his problems and he had to again fix the attack before he would look at the defense (not just by throwing money - which we did at times on Sakho and Lovren, but by also coaching the team for it - which we were unable to do sucessfully). In one way, yes we did adopt pressing under Rodgers, but our pressing was more uncoordinated under him. Our attack flourished by the movement he encouraged, but sometimes we did not even get players for the way he wanted us to play. This could even be attributed to the difference in ideologies between him and the famed 'Transfer Committee'. We still have the Committee, as do every other club in the world in different ways, but for us it now comprises of less members and it seems more coordination between the members before the request for a player is taken up to the owners. At that point, it seemed as if Brendan Rodgers had a lot to do to fix the team, but he also made a few mistakes along the way to the extent that it did not look like he would be able to fix the issues at any point of time.

What Klopp took over was a side with a lot of talent, but one that was extremely unbalanced. It had a lot of players who were not going to make it here (eg. Balotelli, Benteke, Ilori and Alberto), or who were past their peaks (Skrtel, Toure, Enrique, Lucas). The basics of attacking play was ingrained by Rodgers, but by then we had lost all the important players with whom they were incorporated and we no longer had players who could implement them. The pressing was uncoordinated. The defense was shambles with mistakes and lack of communication in them. The midfield has always been soft. Make no mistake, this was the side that Klopp inherited. One full of holes in every area of the pitch.

It has always been an interesting journey in observing how Klopp has approached to tackle these issues. What I liked most was that he didn't come in and straight away begin to start molding it to try and recreate his Dortmund side in terms of preference of systems and preference in profiles of players. He approached us as a completely different project. He gave our issues their own importance. He forgot about Dortmund (at least for the short term) and started using the tools in his hand. Klopp and his staff tried to train the players he had. He applied systems based on the players he had and adapted as per the availability of his players. He moved to 4-3-3 from his Dortmund 4-2-3-1, because our squad was built for that (again from Rodgers' time). A different coach may have stuck to his successful system and enforced the system on his players. Klopp prefers to wait to have his preferred resources before he can go his preferred ways. He also knew that he couldn't change too many things at once, it would be detrimental to his players.

Considering the above, he was sensible in not trying to tackle all these issues at once. We didn't and still don't have the money to throw at these issues straight away and see if they work, and then throw more money until it works. Some managers have worked their way to their successes by doing that. Others have had their resources to instantly get the players who can play their way. A few others have failed in trying to handle too many issues at once, ultimately deviating from their principles. Klopp was understanding enough to take on one issue at a time.

The first issue that he came on and looked was the uncoordinated pressing. Klopp's pressing is different. He coaches the team to press as a unit, analogous to the way Sarri coaches his team as a unit for the defensive line and it's as coordinated as one would like. Also, even if we did press before, counter-pressing was a different concept to our players. Simeone also gets his team to press, however his pressing is far away from Klopp's counter-pressing. This was the first issue he tackled and within his first season (it was just more than half a season in truth), we started pressing and counter-pressing more effectively. We had specific triggers which initiated the pressing at different moments of play and this was brought into the side by his training. He utilized players in Lallana and Firmino who were innately tuned towards pressing and let other players seek their leadership and triggers in pressing. We started to look a very good side when we demolished Chelsea and Man City and made all the way through to the Europa League final by beating some difficult opponents like Man United, Dortmund and Villareal before losing in the final. They were signs of what were to come. If only he could utilize players of the previous management for his style, how good would we be when he gets his preferred players for his way of play?

The second issue he sorted was movement up front. In Brendan Rodgers' last season, the loss of availability and form of players who were crucial in his best season resulted in our attack being static with lack of creativity. Klopp's counter-pressing helped as an additional playmaker, but he also utilized players who had good movement and gave them a suitable role. He started playing Firmino as the False 9 which created havoc in a lot of top sides. Of course, we had difficulty in beating some 'two banks of four' organizations, but the difference was notable. In subsequent transfer windows, he bought players who created/thrived in movement. This kept making us more and more dangerous and we're still improving. Now, our attack is one of the most potent in Premier League and I hope quite quickly enough, in Europe as well.

The third issue he was attempting to fix was linking midfield and attack. He solved this by using an available option and getting a new player. He pushed Lallana into midfield and bought Wijnaldum who are both adept at receiving the ball in tight spots and linking the midfield with the attack. With Henderson, Wijnaldum and Lallana, we were one of the most fluid midfields in the league last season and dominated a number of big sides. It was however broken up by injuries and Klop is now building a squad which is not reliant on specific players, but a set of players who can recreate his vision on the pitch.

While Klopp was looking and concentrating on these issues, the fourth issue escalated. This is our defense and GK situation. Our defense continued to make errors and this was highlighted by every man and his dog. But what was ignored is that, some defensive issues were already fixed before he even started fixing the defense. Our successful pressing has already reduced the need for large number of defensive actions in a game. We concede the second least number of shots per game. We had a similar record last season as well. The defense is suspect? Give less work to the defense. Not a revolutionary idea, but not a straight forward one in implementing as well. We did have a lot of clean-sheets in many games over last season and this, but specific games have haunted us where we have made successive mistakes. Now, we're on our way to ironing out those mistakes. We have a leader in defense and we have solid Full Backs as well in Clyne and Robertson and others who can clearly cover for them. This season he has also got our Full Backs deeper as cover and this has solved part of the problem as well. There is no doubt that we're getting better in this area as well.

In context, it is naive to talk about 'Klopp's defensive issues', when they were inherited and when he has clearly shown that he can coach a successful defense with his League Titles. Of course, he has a penchant for setting up attacking sides, but that Dortmund defense did not have half the issues he has been forced to tackle by the time he won Titles with them. I'm sure that will be the case in future with us as well. I'm more confident about us with him at helm than at any any point of time in the last couple of decades and he's creating a machine that does not depend on any particular player. It has been wonderful watching some of our moves in toying with the opposition, the dummies, back-heels, the movement, the creativity and not to mention, winning the ball high up - which is Klopp's favorite of the lot. It's going to be a proper ride and it's time we all got on it. Cheers to many many successful years full of trophies for Liverpool under Jurgen Klopp!



« Last Edit: January 7, 2018, 07:21:45 pm by PoetryInMotion »

Offline sminp

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,796
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #75 on: January 7, 2018, 07:20:28 pm »

Regarding GK, I think Klopp had much higher expectations on Karius, who came here as one of Bundesligas top keepers. I have no idea what went wrong there, but the plan was surely that Karius would be number one now.

I think the problem is pretty clear, Klopp knows the crowd will jump on Karius for the slightest mistake which obviously doesn’t help a young keeper and we then continue in a downward spiral of negativity. I’m pretty sure Karius would be a regular if Klopp thought the crowd would give him a chance, the boss clearly likes him anyway or we wouldn’t have this weird situation of the league keeper and the champions league keeper being different.
My Betfair referal code for anyone who wants it: R6K4MTAQM (You get a £25 free bet)

"Liverpool are magic, Everton are tragic."
"It was like playing in a foreign country." Ian Rush on his time with Juventus in Italy
"Don't worry Alan. At least you'll be able to play close to a great team!" Bill Shankly to A

Offline Kopenhagen

  • Ban hammer of Damocles poised to drop if Everton finish fourth.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,165
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #76 on: January 7, 2018, 07:51:46 pm »
Keita at 6, Chamberlain at 8, wingery thing on wing?

(Nice read PoP. Thank you)

Keita is an 8. He has all the skills of Gundogan, Modric, etc. And it makes even more sense with recent reports that, after selling Coutinho, Klopp wants Keita early, as that's the natural replacement in this template.

Good post, PoP.
"There is no final victory, just as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought over and over again."

Offline GeorgiaRed

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #77 on: January 7, 2018, 07:55:22 pm »
I wonder then if the 4-3-3 we played last season was specifically designed to include Coutinho, the kind of player that wouldn't fit in Klopp's standard team.

POP enjoyed the read. Vaga I think this is a very interesting observation. When JK and staff came to LFC I don't remember them buying too many players. It almost seemed they worked with what Brendan had left them. I think most would agree that who has been brought in to the first team has been an upgrade for the system. Phil going may allow us to see JK bring the final piece of the puzzle in.

Will another #9 type player be brought in? It seems to me that Can and Henderson are similar players so when Can is off maybe LFC will get an upgrade there.

Sent via phone. Hopefully it is readable.  :wave

Offline Chalky Boots

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,493
  • Neurotic Fan Fiction
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #78 on: January 7, 2018, 08:02:58 pm »
Good post, definitely agree about the need for a 6 ( I think everyone does though to be fair). To be nitpicky I think Grosskreutz only started the match against Bayern because Gotze was injured in the Madrid or Malaga game (can't remember which now to be honest) usually then Kuba would occupy a more defensive role and Reus could combine on the inside. Whether or not we see him revert to that system I'm not sure. I think it was as much about the players he had around at the time and how many (the back 4, Bender/Kehl, Lewandowski, Kuba, Gotze) were acclimatised to such a system; so rather than tearing everything up he could drop Reus in, or Gundogan and things would be fundamentally the same just with minor alterations in the quality of outcome; as in Reus being better than Kagawa and Gundogan likewise with Sahin.

Online Dim Glas

  • Die Nullfünfer.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,188
  • Michael Sheen is the actual Prince of 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿
Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #79 on: January 7, 2018, 08:27:05 pm »
No idea why, but the results are pretty clear.

I see lots of demands for replacing Coutinho with another star, an established top player.  I don't think that will happen. It's not FSGs strategy, and it is not Klopps way of working.

Regarding GK, I think Klopp had much higher expectations on Karius, who came here as one of Bundesligas top keepers. I have no idea what went wrong there, but the plan was surely that Karius would be number one now.

But most of his signings at LFC so far here are established players (not top stars necessarily but definitely established).  So it could happen. Klopp has actually changed how he builds teams from his Dortmund days, for two reasons - a) far higher expectations here than there was there, and b) far more money. For four of his 7 seasons at Dortmund, they barely had two pennies to rub together, so their team building stratagies where far different to what it is here.

Karius wasn't necessarily one of the Buli's top keepers, but he was a young and talented goalie prime to take the next step. I don't think anything has gone badly wrong beyond him losing his confidence first half of last season, he just hasn't been played consistently enough since then. I'd love nothing more than him just to given that starting role till the end of the season now.

Anyway sorry, carry on! Didn't read the actual posts yet!