Topic: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)

[Euskadi]

Disgusting to execute men without trial, however te pillar of democracy and rule of law in the region, Israel has been doing that for decades most recently when the British passport holding Mossad memebers executed Hamas targets in the UAE. Mossad have been responsible for such abhorent acts all across the world.

[Broad Spectrum]

See the bit in bold i guess you forgot that the ones in America have been tried in a court of law spent time on death row  while numerous appeals will have been lodged and the evidence looked at again and again, not killed on some kind of Chinese whisper system  within hours.

You lecture others but you do not debate you cannot debate,  no consensus can be reached with an entrenched mindset of only i am right!

Guantanamo Bay is probably one of the worst violations of human rights laws we've seen in recent years. Prisoners were kept there without being formally charged for years on end. Can't imagine many of them had the opportunity to be tried in a court of law. But that was justified, because the Bush Administration claimed these men were a threat to national security so they could in effect do as they please in order to maintain that.

Hamas should have tried the suspects in a court of law no doubt, but the media portray them as acting in a uniquely barbaric fashion that only Hamas or 'Islamist Terrorists' are capable of, which is quite simply wrong.

[Mutton Geoff]

Guantanamo Bay is probably one of the worst violations of human rights laws we've seen in recent years. Prisoners were kept there without being formally charged for years on end. Can't imagine many of them had the opportunity to be tried in a court of law. But that was justified, because the Bush Administration claimed these men were a threat to national security so they could in effect do as they please in order to maintain that.

Hamas should have tried the suspects in a court of law no doubt, but the media portray them as acting in a uniquely barbaric fashion that only Hamas or 'Islamist Terrorists' are capable of, which is quite simply wrong.

Did they shoot them?

[Yorkykopite]

Did they shoot them?

Indeed. You'd have expected the poster who made the comparison to have asked that obvious question himself and then binned his post.

We all know Guantanamo was a disgrace. It was America at its worst. Americans themselves said so. But Guantanamo did not characterise America. There was, and is, more to America than Guantanamo.

Hamas, by obvious contrast, is absolutely characterised by summary justice. The public executions of men denied due process is simply a flagrant example of the way the authorities do things in Gaza. 

[Elmo!]

Indeed. You'd have expected the poster who made the comparison to have asked that obvious question himself and then binned his post.

We all know Guantanamo was is a disgrace. It was is America at its worst. Americans themselves said so. But Guantanamo did does not characterise America. There was, and is, more to America than Guantanamo.

Hamas, by obvious contrast, is absolutely characterised by summary justice. The public executions of men denied due process is simply a flagrant example of the way the authorities do things in Gaza.

[Euskadi]

Did they shoot them?

Mossad most certainly have and do on numerous occasions.

[Mutton Geoff]

It's not justified at all mate. One of the biggest atrocities our government has committed since the Japanese internment camps.

Oh i don't know the blanket bombing of Cambodia and Laos comes pretty high on my list of US Atrocities.

[Mutton Geoff]

Mossad most certainly have and do on numerous occasions.

what publically 14 at a time.

 i don't support either side but you apologists do my head in, the Israeli Bombing is evil, the Hamas Shelling is evil, the leaders on both sides are evil, they don't want peace that is evident,  they want to wipe each other of the face of the earth, and as usual the innocent victims on both sides suffer, how anyone can excuse any of these actions for some tired and worthless dogma is beyond contempt.

A plague on both their houses!

[Libero]

Israel Provoked This War

It’s up to President Obama to stop it.



There seems to be near-universal agreement in the United States with President Barack Obama’s observation that Israel, like every other country, has the right and obligation to defend its citizens from threats directed at them from beyond its borders.

But this anodyne statement does not begin to address the political and moral issues raised by Israel’s bombings and land invasion of Gaza: who violated the cease-fire agreement that was in place since November 2012 and whether Israel’s civilian population could have been protected by nonviolent means that would not have placed Gaza’s civilian population at risk. As of this writing, the number killed by the Israel Defense Forces has surpassed 600, the overwhelming majority of whom are noncombatants.

Israel’s assault on Gaza, as pointed out by analyst Nathan Thrall in the New York Times, was not triggered by Hamas’ rockets directed at Israel but by Israel’s determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy.

The notion that it was Israel, not Hamas, that violated a cease-fire agreement will undoubtedly offend a wide swath of Israel supporters. To point out that it is not the first time Israel has done so will offend them even more deeply. But it was Shmuel Zakai, a retired brigadier general and former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division, and not “leftist” critics, who said about the Israel Gaza war of 2009 that during the six-month period of a truce then in place, Israel made a central error “by failing to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians in the [Gaza] Strip. … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they are in and expect Hamas just to sit around and do nothing.”

This is true of the latest cease-fire as well. According to Thrall, Hamas is now seeking through violence what it should have obtained through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. “Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets.” It is not only Hamas supporters, but many Gazans, perhaps a majority, who believe it is worth paying a heavy price to change a disastrous status quo.

The answer to the second question — whether a less lethal course was not available to protect Israel’s civilian population — is (unintentionally?) implicit in the formulation of President Barack Obama’s defense of Israel’s actions: namely, the right and obligation of all governments to protect their civilian populations from assaults from across their borders.

But where, exactly, are Israel’s borders?

Henry Siegman is president of the U.S./Middle East Project. He served as senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and non-resident research professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies of the University of London, and is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/israel-provoked-this-war-109229.html

[RedSince86]

More than 300 Jewish Holocaust survivors and their descendants have condemned the “genocide” of Palestinians in Gaza in an advert published in the New York Times.

The statement was released by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network and published yesterday. It denounces the “racist dehumanisation of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached fever pitch” and the “massacre” of Palestinians.

As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine.

Statement signed by 327 Jewish holocaust survivors and their descendants.
The statement was drafted as a response to an advert, published in the Guardian and several other newspapers, from Nobel prize-winning author Elie Wiesel which accused Hamas of “child sacrifice.”

According to the latest UN estimates 2,042 Palestinians have been killed since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge. Of those, 1,444 were thought to be civilians.

[HarryLabrador]

24 August 2014 Last updated at 10:39
Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza

Israel's actions in Gaza have generated heated debate in parts of the US

More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza.

The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times.

It was in response to an advertisement by Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel which compared the Palestinian militant movement Hamas to the Nazis.

More than 2,000 people have been killed in Gaza in the ongoing conflict.

Most of them were civilians. On the Israeli side, 68 people - mainly soldiers - have been killed.

The Gaza conflict has drawn strong reaction in the US, with pro- and anti-Israel demonstrations taking place.

The advertisement in the New York Times is signed by 40 Holocaust survivors and 287 descendants and other relatives.
It calls for the blockade of Gaza to be lifted and Israel to be boycotted.

"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine," the statement says.

The IJAN, founded in 2008, is a small left-wing organisation which is highly critical of Israel.

Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza in 2007 after Hamas, which rejects Israel's right to exist, took control of the territory, having won elections the year before and ousted political rivals Fatah.

Egypt, which also regards Hamas as a threat, maintains a blockade of Gaza's southern border.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28916761

[nyctex]

wow.  Same story posted twice.  Must be important 

[Yorkykopite]

It won't impress Hamas. They say the Holocaust never happened.

[Mutton Geoff]

It won't impress Hamas. They say the Holocaust never happened.

They must be readers of David Irving books then.

[BUSHMILLS]

It won't impress Hamas. They say the Holocaust never happened.

[SadRed]

Ken Loach calls for cultural boycott of Israel
The British film-maker wants an ‘absolute boycott of all the cultural happenings supported by the Israeli state’ and has labelled the US a ‘bully’ at the Sarajevo film festival

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/aug/25/ken-loach-calls-for-cultural-boycott-of-israel

[BUSHMILLS]

Ken Loach calls for cultural boycott of Israel
The British film-maker wants an ‘absolute boycott of all the cultural happenings supported by the Israeli state’ and has labelled the US a ‘bully’ at the Sarajevo film festival

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/aug/25/ken-loach-calls-for-cultural-boycott-of-israel

Ken Loach, eh....who'd have thought it?

Next thing you know it'll be John Pilger and Vanessa Redgrave.

[RojoLeón]

Ken Loach, eh....who'd have thought it?

Next thing you know it'll be John Pilger and Vanessa Redgrave.

Leftist swine! Hanging's too good for them.

[Yorkykopite]

Leftist swine! Hanging's too good for them.

Is that from the Hamas election manifesto?

[Mutton Geoff]

I like Ken but he is always looking for a fight.

[RojoLeón]

I like Ken but he is always looking for a fight.

Bit like Israel. Good job Ken isn't equiped with the best weaponry US tax dollars can buy

[Yorkykopite]

Bit like Israel. Good job Ken isn't equiped with the best weaponry US tax dollars can buy

Has someone been attacking Ken? I didn't know that. I guess that's why he eventually retaliated.

[RojoLeón]

Retaliated.   

Good trolling, sir

[BUSHMILLS]

Bit like Israel. Good job Ken isn't equiped with the best weaponry US tax dollars can buy

Good job Hamas doesn't have that weaponry, either. Then it would really be able to wipe Israel off the map. As opposed to just threatening it.

[SadRed]

Good job Hamas doesn't have that weaponry, either. Then it would really be able to wipe Israel off the map. As opposed to just threatening it.

Right now there is only one country in this conflict which is in danger of being wiped off the map, if it hasnt been already. And it is not Israel.

[bigbonedrawky]

A world with Israel wiped of the map...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Mandatory_Palestine_1945_subdistricts_and_districts.png

[Libero]

wow.  Same story posted twice.  Must be important 

It is actually. VERY important.

A lot of us have a tremendous respect for the Survivors, and always take consideration of their views. 

You might well do the same, instead of attempting to belittle their messages.

After all, there's strong and reasonable case to suggest that any one who dares to belittle the messages of Holocaust Survivors is a bigot and much worse.

[nyctex]

and I can certainly find plenty of survivors and their offspring that support the retaliation against the terrorists in Gaza.  I'm sure we can find some that think the Israeli government isn't doing enough.  And some that think it should be handled differently.

I don't think we should think a fringe group like the IJAN should speak for the survivors. 

[Libero]

and I can certainly find plenty of survivors and their offspring that support the retaliation against the terrorists in Gaza.  I'm sure we can find some that think the Israeli government isn't doing enough.  And some that think it should be handled differently.

I don't think we should think a fringe group like the IJAN should speak for the survivors. 

Find them then.

I'm off to watch the match.   

[SadRed]

Do you think that if Hamas had the capabilities, that they would not wipe Israel off the map? It's not a trick question btw.

Would they or wouldn't they?

They would. If they had power, they would, in my opinion, be behaving exactly like Israel.

[CornerFlag]

Can someone able to read Hebrew tell me what some of this says?  The caption from the page I got it from says that it's Israelis wishing for some Holocaust survivors to die because they're opposed to Israel's actions towards Palestine.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=695351223884606&set=a.113986385354429.26862.100002292054448&type=1&theater

[BUSHMILLS]

It is actually. VERY important.

A lot of us have a tremendous respect for the Survivors, and always take consideration of their views. 

You might well do the same, instead of attempting to belittle their messages.

After all, there's strong and reasonable case to suggest that any one who dares to belittle the messages of Holocaust Survivors is a bigot and much worse.

I assume you have tremendous respect for those Holocaust survivors who fully support Operation Protective Edge - and that you always take consideration of their views and don't belittle their messages.

[SadRed]

Okay, what if they had nuclear arms. Do you think they would use those?

No. I do not think so.

[Jebediah]

Find them then.

I'm off to watch the match.   

There are 190,000 Holocaust survivors living in Israel today. Once you factor in their 'descendants' then we are talking about a number far far greater. The vast majority, i would assume, join most sectors of Israeli society in broadly supporting Operation Protective Edge.

The advert that you initially quoted was in reply to an advert from Elie Weisel, in which he decries the use of Human Shields by Hamas. Weisel is  a survivor of Auschwitz and a Nobel Peace Laureate.

[mactifosi]

I know coming on this thread is futile, it is merely an expression of frustration.

I can't help but compare with the situation in Iraq at the moment.

Most of Gaza is without running water or electricity and their food supplies are being rationed by the Israelis.
With some government members joking they are putting the Palestinians on a diet.

And then we see Britain and the US warning of the genocide in Iraq because a few 1000 Christians had to leave their homes.
I am not sure of the exact number but isn't it close to 1.5million Palestinians who have been forced from their homes and off their lands, living in refugee camps.

The double standards is sickening.

Especially when you see prominent Israeli making these sort of comments.
It is the language we associate with the Holocaust.
I do not see how the Israelis are any different to ISIS to be honest, they have very similar goals.

http://smpalestine.com/2014/08/02/list-of-op-eds-calling-for-the-elimination-of-gaza/

1. “My Outline for a Solution in Gaza”
Author: Moshe Feiglin, Member of Knesset
Publisher: Arutz Sheva
Summary: “Quiet” Gaza permanently by attacking whoever and wherever without any consideration.
Link to article

2. “When Genocide is Permissible”
Author: Yochanan Gordon
Publisher: The Times of Israel, The Five Towns Jewish Times
Summary: If genocide is the only action that will quiet Gaza once and for all, so be it.
Link to The Times of Israel article (taken down)
Link to The Five Towns Jewish Times article (taken down)
Link to reprint

3. “Into the fray: Why Gaza must go”
Author: Martin Sherman
Publisher: The Jerusalem Post
Summary: Depopulate the Gaza Strip, relocate only the ‘good Arabs’, and annex the territory.
Link to article

4. “1 Samuel 15:18″
Author: Irwin E. Blank
Publisher: The Times of Israel
Summary: There is a religious obligation to make “the war more horrific for the people of Gaza”, to destroy Gaza once and for all, so that Israel will never feel threatened ever again. After receiving criticism, the author published a clarification for giving the impression that he advocates genocide.
Link to article

5. “Hamas’s Civilian Death Strategy”
Author: Thane Rosenbaum
Publisher: The Wall Street Journal
Summary: The rules of war do not apply to Israel’s invasion because there are no civilians in Gaza, and all of them are legitimate if not necessary targets.
Link to article

6. “In Gaza, there is no such thing as ‘innocent civilians'”
Author: Giora Eiland
Publisher: Ynet News
Summary: Israel’s generosity in supplying food, fuel, and electricty to the enemy is absurd: Gaza must be dealt with swiftly and totally.
Link to article

7. Untitled
Author: Ayelet Shaked, Member of Knesset
Publisher: (Self-published on Facebook)
Summary: The Palestinian people as a whole are the enemy; they are snakes who deserve to die, every single one of them.
Link to reprint

[HarryLabrador]

Just wonder how many celebrities would want to pour rubble over their heads, but what an amazing idea?

'Rubble Bucket Challenge' launched in Gaza
Following the success of the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge, Gaza launches novel - and potentially painful - rubble challenge
By Andrew Marszal, 4:08PM BST 25 Aug 2014

A "Rubble Bucket Challenge" has been launched in support of people in Gaza suffering from Israeli air strikes.
In an imitation of the "Ice Bucket Challenge", the campaign sees people pour buckets of sand and rocks over their head and nominate others to do the same.

The concept is intended as a "a campaign to raise awareness about the war on Gaza where people are bombed inside their homes", according to its Facebook page.

At the time of writing, the Facebook campaign page had over 2,600 "likes"; Now .

A Gaza-based journalist Ayman Aloul, who took part in the challenge, posted a YouTube video in which he appears to be standing amid the ruins of Gaza buildings destroyed by air strikes.

"We looked for a bucket of water, however the use of water is more important than to empty over our heads," he said. "And even if the water is available it is difficult to freeze it."

Various videos have already been posted in which participants from countries including Germany and the United States pour a bucketload full of rubble over their heads, and nominate others to follow suit.

In the video featuring Mr Aloul, he says: “If five famous people in the world like actors or presidents will do the challenge, that means I succeeded in sending the message about Gaza."

Hashtags for the campaign include #dustbucketchallenge and #remainsbucketchallenge.

More than 17,000 homes have been destroyed or damaged irreparably since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge on July 8.

The conflict, which enters its 50th day on Tuesday, has killed more than 2,100 Palestinians and 68 on the Israeli side.
The original Ice Bucket Challenge, which went viral online and has so far raised £37.5 million, was set up to combat motor neurone disease.

It has garnered support from celebrities and politicians spanning Justin Bieber to George W Bush.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/11054873/Rubble-Bucket-Challenge-launched-in-Gaza.html

[Broad Spectrum]

Israel-Gaza conflict: Hamas says long-term truce agreed with Israel


An "open-ended" ceasefire has reportedly been agreed between Israel and Hamas that could end the seven-week war in Gaza.

The group claimed the terms of the truce were a "victory for the resistance" of the Palestinian people.

"The negotiations with an agreement which embodies the resistance of our people and a victory for the resistance," Hamas's exiled deputy leader, Mousa Abu Marzouk, wrote on his Facebook page.

A senior Hamas official said that a peace deal had been reached with Israel to end the latest conflict in the coastal enclave that has killed more than 2,000 people.

The official said the deal calls for an "open-ended" ceasefire and an Israeli agreement to ease its blockade of Gaza to allow aid supplies and construction materials into the war-battered territory.

Talks on long-running issues, including Hamas' demand to reopen Gaza's airport and sea port, would begin in a month.

There was no immediate comment from the Israeli Government.

If the terms of a peace deal proposed by Egypt are agreed, it would effectively mean Hamas settled for similar conditions that ended a week of clashes Israel in 2012.

Israel then promised to ease restrictions on imports and movement gradually and Hamas vowed to stop rocket attacks from Gaza.

Although peace was largely maintained, the blockade that had been imposed on Gaza by Egypt and Israel after Hamas overthrew the Palestinian Government in 2007 remained.

The restrictions stop almost all of Gaza's 1.8 million residents travelling or trading outside the territory and have decimated its economy.

During the latest conflict, Hamas said it would only put an end to hostilities if the blockade is completely lifted but Israel has escalated its strikes in Gaza in recent days, toppling five high-rise buildings housing offices, apartments and shops.

At least 2,133 Palestinians have been killed more than 11,000 wounded in the latest conflict, according to Palestinian health officials and the UN estimates more than 17,000 homes have been destroyed, leaving 100,000 people homeless.

On the Israeli side, 68 people have been killed, including four civilians.

[viteslesrouges]

Just wonder how many celebrities would want to pour rubble over their heads, but what an amazing idea?

'Rubble Bucket Challenge' launched in Gaza
Following the success of the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge, Gaza launches novel - and potentially painful - rubble challenge
By Andrew Marszal, 4:08PM BST 25 Aug 2014

A "Rubble Bucket Challenge" has been launched in support of people in Gaza suffering from Israeli air strikes.
In an imitation of the "Ice Bucket Challenge", the campaign sees people pour buckets of sand and rocks over their head and nominate others to do the same.

The concept is intended as a "a campaign to raise awareness about the war on Gaza where people are bombed inside their homes", according to its Facebook page.

At the time of writing, the Facebook campaign page had over 2,600 "likes"; Now .

A Gaza-based journalist Ayman Aloul, who took part in the challenge, posted a YouTube video in which he appears to be standing amid the ruins of Gaza buildings destroyed by air strikes.

"We looked for a bucket of water, however the use of water is more important than to empty over our heads," he said. "And even if the water is available it is difficult to freeze it."

Various videos have already been posted in which participants from countries including Germany and the United States pour a bucketload full of rubble over their heads, and nominate others to follow suit.

In the video featuring Mr Aloul, he says: “If five famous people in the world like actors or presidents will do the challenge, that means I succeeded in sending the message about Gaza."

Hashtags for the campaign include #dustbucketchallenge and #remainsbucketchallenge.

More than 17,000 homes have been destroyed or damaged irreparably since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge on July 8.

The conflict, which enters its 50th day on Tuesday, has killed more than 2,100 Palestinians and 68 on the Israeli side.
The original Ice Bucket Challenge, which went viral online and has so far raised £37.5 million, was set up to combat motor neurone disease.

It has garnered support from celebrities and politicians spanning Justin Bieber to George W Bush.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/11054873/Rubble-Bucket-Challenge-launched-in-Gaza.html

They've been doing this for ages in some villages in Pakistan, so I'm led to believe.

[SadRed]

They've been doing this for ages in some villages in Pakistan, so I'm led to believe.

What has Pakistan got to do with this? Okay, I understand they are muslim too. Racism at its worst. Disgusting. I am not able to reply to you on the other thread but to accuse someone of supporting someone of woolwich murders is disgusting. What are you going to accuse me of now holding terrorist views because I oppose wars in Gaza and Israel? Get a life and read someones post, go spout your islamophobia somewhere else.

[SadRed]

On a positive note, finally they agree to a truce.

I hope with the unity government, they will not fire any more rockets. If Israel stays true to its promise of opening borders and building a seaport, it will give people of Gaza some hope and somehting to live for. Hopefully Israelis can live in peace too, and hope the extermist elements on both sides can be reigned in!!