Topic: 2017-18 Champions League / European Cup last 16

[rushyman]

Still chuckling to myself. Boy did they blow that. In fairness they were the better side over the 2 legs but haven`t learnt yet to kill off a game (something we lacked for quite a while until relatively recently).

Think son is a great player by the way. Would love him in our squad.

If you got to bits when a tiny bit of pressure is introduced, in this case the equaliser, there's nothing down for you

They really went full Spurs last night. Reminded me of England actually

[clinical]

Chiellini. What a man of class, what a great personality and top 3 defender of last decade.

Still remember he started his career as a left back. And rafa was interested.

[Nick110581]

Still chuckling to myself. Boy did they blow that. In fairness they were the better side over the 2 legs but haven`t learnt yet to kill off a game (something we lacked for quite a while until relatively recently).

Think son is a great player by the way. Would love him in our squad.

Thing is they should have been 3-1 down at HT in first leg but they weren't. They did well to battle back but no tie is ever over at 2-2.

Small margins at this stage and they were the wrong side of it last night.

They have no experience of winning trophies despite being touted as one of the best teams in England. We have got closer than them to silverware but still not over the line.

Poch now has to keep squad together as he has clearly done well but if the stadium costs are spiralling then Levy may cash in on Kane.

[thejbs]

Chiellini. What a man of class, what a great personality and top 3 defender of last decade.

So good you could just eat him...

[owens_2k]

Still remember he started his career as a left back. And rafa was interested.

Just came across this, while looking into that

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/6427174/reds-eye-french-starlet

[Clint Eastwood]

You have to say that supporters of sides from other nations shit all over the support and atmosphere found in English stadiums. The Porto and Basel fans were magnificent in supporting their teams even though it was a lost cause, and other than the occasional "Oh when the Spurs...." for Tottenham they were poor as well for having 80,000+ odd supporters watching them.

They have 2 chants - that one, and "Harry Kane, he's one of our own" - both shite and irritating.

[Xabi Gerrard]

They have 2 chants - that one, and "Harry Kane, he's one of our own" - both shite and irritating.

I heard a few more than that when we played them in October. I remember the Dele Alli one about being better than Ozil (to the Billy Ray Cyrus tune) but there were a few more I think.

[Redsnappa]

I heard a few more than that when we played them in October. I remember the Dele Alli one about being better than Ozil (to the Billy Ray Cyrus tune) but there were a few more I think.

That dreadful 'We are Tottenham, super Tottenham from the Lane ' thing as well.

[clinical]

They have 2 chants - that one, and "Harry Kane, he's one of our own" - both shite and irritating.

Up there with Chelsea's songs.

They just have no creativity do the southerners.

[Tesco tearaway]

Pretty sure Pochettino took a dig at us there saying other teams had an easier route

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Juventus 

[elsewhere]

Still can’t believe the way they fucked up in that 2nd Juve goal, Sunderland defending right there.

[JackWard33]

Chiellini. What a man of class, what a great personality and top 3 defender of last decade.

That's an over reach - I know everyone loves him and he's got that 100% give everything way of playing but he doesn't have the quality to be viewed at the level you've described. There are several better defenders who don't have to be constantly on the edge and honestly he was in trouble against this spurs team a lot in the two legs

[Gerry Attrick]

That's an over reach - I know everyone loves him and he's got that 100% give everything way of playing but he doesn't have the quality to be viewed at the level you've described. There are several better defenders who don't have to be constantly on the edge and honestly he was in trouble against this spurs team a lot in the two legs

I don't think it's an overreach to say he's top 3 of the last decade. This isn't a great era for CBs at all or even full backs really. Dani Alves is the only bona fide all-time great in my opinion.

[Nick110581]

That Dybala finish is beautiful.

[killer-heels]

The way Chiellini was playing yesterday, we would have battered them. He was awful on the ball and Spurs are not as good as us at exploiting that and dont have our attacking talent.

[Xabi Gerrard]

I don't think it's an overreach to say he's top 3 of the last decade. This isn't a great era for CBs at all or even full backs really. Dani Alves is the only bona fide all-time great in my opinion.

Ahem




Jokes aside, you don't include Lahm in there?

[Nick110581]

The way Chiellini was playing yesterday, we would have battered them. He was awful on the ball and Spurs are not as good as us at exploiting that and dont have our attacking talent.

Think Dele Alli has been a weakness this season. Seems to have gone off the boil.

The other front 3 are great players.

[Gerry Attrick]

Ahem

Jokes aside, you don't include Lahm in there?

I forgot about Lahm, I'd include him too.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Ramos is an all-time great. Couldn't care less if he's error prone against Getafe and Espanyol, he steps it up on the biggest occasions. Can't argue with 3 CL's, a World Cup and two Euro's.

[Gerry Attrick]

Ramos is an all-time great. Couldn't care less if he's error prone against Getafe and Espanyol, he steps it up on the biggest occasions. Can't argue with 3 CL's, a World Cup and a Euro's.

I think he'll be remembered more for his goals than actual defending though.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I think he'll be remembered more for his goals than actual defending though.

Possibly, but I think that's unfair. His defending was brilliant in the 2016 final.

Could throw in Pique too but I don't rate him as highly and think he's had bigger, longer dips in his career.

[OsirisMVZ]

Ramos and Lahm are funny ones to clarify. Ramos played right back as the width for the Spain team that won 3 trophies on the bounce, and then as a CB he's got three Champions Leagues with many important goals along those routes.

Lahm a great full back and then Guardiola turned him into a pivot for a team that more than dominated the Bundesliga 3 seasons in a row and you think 'wow he's more than a full back he's Gerrard-level of being able to affect all areas of the pitch'.

[killer-heels]

Think Dele Alli has been a weakness this season. Seems to have gone off the boil.

The other front 3 are great players.

They are good individual players but they are no way as good or as effective as our 3. Our 3 are in the top 5 in terms of attacking quality in Europe.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Ramos and Lahm are funny ones to clarify. Ramos played right back as the width for the Spain team that won 3 trophies on the bounce, and then as a CB he's got three Champions Leagues with many important goals along those routes.

Lahm a great full back and then Guardiola turned him into a pivot for a team that more than dominated the Bundesliga 3 seasons in a row and you think 'wow he's more than a full back he's Gerrard-level of being able to affect all areas of the pitch'.

Ramos was a centre-back for Spain in 2012 tbf. I'm not sure Lahm played central midfield for as long as you think either - wasn't it a bit of a one-season wonder thing?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Ramos and Lahm are funny ones to clarify. Ramos played right back as the width for the Spain team that won 3 trophies on the bounce, and then as a CB he's got three Champions Leagues with many important goals along those routes.

Lahm a great full back and then Guardiola turned him into a pivot for a team that more than dominated the Bundesliga 3 seasons in a row and you think 'wow he's more than a full back he's Gerrard-level of being able to affect all areas of the pitch'.

If you look at football formations in 4 "bands" instead of 3, then theoretically any player should be able to play across their "band" (Goalkeeper doesn't apply, as the keeper is a legal requirement for every team):



So a fullback playing in DM, and doing well, is not really a surprise, ever, because that's the "band" with the same tasks - block, tackle, mark, play the outball, push up, and cover central defenders.

More managers should be moving fullbacks into defensive mid, and vice versa, frankly

[Dim Glas]

Ramos was a centre-back for Spain in 2012 tbf. I'm not sure Lahm played central midfield for as long as you think either - wasn't it a bit of a one-season wonder thing?

In 2013-14 he played midfield - not all season, but a decent amount. A few games in other seasons too, but that was the only season I think he had a stretch of games there. He was injured for quite a big section of Guardiola's second season there. And then the last season he played as RB more or less whole season.

[Elzar]

If you look at football formations in 4 "bands" instead of 3, then theoretically any player should be able to play across their "band" (Goalkeeper doesn't apply, as the keeper is a legal requirement for every team):



So a fullback playing in DM, and doing well, is not really a surprise, ever, because that's the "band" with the same tasks - block, tackle, mark, play the outball, push up, and cover central defenders.

More managers should be moving fullbacks into defensive mid, and vice versa, frankly

Wouldn't this only be true with the truly technical Fullbacks though? The majority now are quick, almost old fashioned winger type players.

[Suareznumber7]

Chiellini. What a man of class, what a great personality and top 3 defender of last decade.

Love the way he and Bufon celebrate great defensive plays.  You can tell they view them just as importantly as a goal.  That sliding clearance Chiellini made when Kane was coming in behind was a game saving play and he celebrated appropriately. 

[Xabi Gerrard]

If you look at football formations in 4 "bands" instead of 3, then theoretically any player should be able to play across their "band" (Goalkeeper doesn't apply, as the keeper is a legal requirement for every team):



So a fullback playing in DM, and doing well, is not really a surprise, ever, because that's the "band" with the same tasks - block, tackle, mark, play the outball, push up, and cover central defenders.

More managers should be moving fullbacks into defensive mid, and vice versa, frankly

Doesn't a good full back need a very different skillset to a DM though? So a good DM can get away with perhaps not being so athletic whereas a good fullback needs to have the physicality to work the wing and be involved in numerous 1 on 1 foot races thoughout a game? Also a good cross isn't necessarily an important thing for a DM but good full backs need to have that.

And doesn't a good DM need a different type of spacial awareness (being aware of passing lanes to cover, knowing when to cover which full back, etc) and a different range of passing?

Top full backs (Ashley Cole, Dani Alves, etc) seem to have a very different skillset to top DMs (Serge Busquets, Didi Hamann, etc) - I don't think those players could slot into each others roles. So when a player like Lahm or Alaba does manage to excel in both it's actually quite unique, no?

[OsirisMVZ]

Yes I'm remembering Guardiola trying the inside full-backs last season with Clichy and Sanga which didn't work at all.

POP thanks for your reply. I have an interview in a couple of hours so think its a bad idea to start thinking really hard (for once ) about football rather than Broadcast but I'll get back to you!

[classycarra]

If you look at football formations in 4 "bands" instead of 3, then theoretically any player should be able to play across their "band" (Goalkeeper doesn't apply, as the keeper is a legal requirement for every team):



So a fullback playing in DM, and doing well, is not really a surprise, ever, because that's the "band" with the same tasks - block, tackle, mark, play the outball, push up, and cover central defenders.

More managers should be moving fullbacks into defensive mid, and vice versa, frankly

Flannagan at DM worked pretty nicely for a couple of games. If you're happy with your DM not being a particularly creative player, although he's a pretty accomplished passer, you can see the attraction (if you have an abundance of fullbacks, or prefer better athletes to cover the flank).

[PhaseOfPlay]

Doesn't a good full back need a very different skillset to a DM though? So a good DM can get away with perhaps not being so athletic whereas a good fullback needs to have the physicality to work the wing and be involved in numerous 1 on 1 foot races thoughout a game? Also a good cross isn't necessarily an important thing for a DM but good full backs need to have that.

Athleticism isn't a "skill" per se, it's a "condition". The only difference is the scope of the runs - fullbacks run up and down, DMs go side to side. Also, a cross and a long ball are the same technique, so it's just a different application between the two.

And doesn't a good DM need a different type of spacial awareness (being aware of passing lanes to cover, knowing when to cover which full back, etc) and a different range of passing?

Not really. Every player in the defensive phase as 6 points of reference - the ball, distance to the ball, the other attackers, distance to goal, position of team-mates, and the offside line. The only things that change with different positions is the emphasis on which reference point.

Top full backs (Ashley Cole, Dani Alves, etc) seem to have a very different skillset to top DMs (Serge Busquets, Didi Hamann, etc) - I don't think those players could slot into each others roles. So when a player like Lahm or Alaba does manage to excel in both it's actually quite unique, no?

It's only unique because it's not done very often. My point is that there's no earthly reason for it to be unique.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Wouldn't this only be true with the truly technical Fullbacks though? The majority now are quick, almost old fashioned winger type players.

That's a good point. Yes, this applies more to "true" fullbacks, rather than converted wingers or wingbacks. Although probably more converted wingers, as wingbacks tend to just be fullbacks who like to get forward

[LallanaInPyjamas]

In the 4-3-3 depicted above, I'd have thought a full-back's skills are generally more transferable to the interior band than the holding midfielder's.

Alaba is a great example - he doesn't hold for Austria, he's very much box-to-box.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Athleticism isn't a "skill" per se, it's a "condition". The only difference is the scope of the runs - fullbacks run up and down, DMs go side to side. Also, a cross and a long ball are the same technique, so it's just a different application between the two.


Not really. Every player in the defensive phase as 6 points of reference - the ball, distance to the ball, the other attackers, distance to goal, position of team-mates, and the offside line. The only things that change with different positions is the emphasis on which reference point.

It's only unique because it's not done very often. My point is that there's no earthly reason for it to be unique.

Cheers, haven't really thought about it like that. It still doesn't seem 'right' to me though! When I think of players who are really good DMs (Busquets, Hamann, Matic, etc) I just can't see them translating that to full back. Likewise, Cashley, Alves, Evra, etc wouldn't, from my limited knowledge, be anywhere near as effective as DM. Think that's why I'm struggling to accept it!

Some players I definitely can see it though - Mascherano and Glen Johnson, for example, could probably have made the transition, but it's not like they're the majority.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Cheers, haven't really thought about it like that. It still doesn't seem 'right' to me though! When I think of players who are really good DMs (Busquets, Hamann, Matic, etc) I just can't see them translating that to full back. Likewise, Cashley, Alves, Evra, etc wouldn't, from my limited knowledge, be anywhere near as effective as DM. Think that's why I'm struggling to accept it!

Some players I definitely can see it though - Mascherano and Glen Johnson, for example, could probably have made the transition, but it's not like they're the majority.

Matic would be an excellent fullback! As I think would Hamann have been.

People are too allied to "positions", but positions don't really exist, only skills and athleticism, suited to the area of the field. That's why teams who do a lot of small sided games in training always have flexible players and formations, because once you go to 4v4 or 5v5 or something like that, positions stop existing, and there's only "where should you be in this moment?".

It's like "Total Football" didn't teach anyone anything

[Xabi Gerrard]

Matic would be an excellent fullback! As I think would Hamann have been.

People are too allied to "positions", but positions don't really exist, only skills and athleticism, suited to the area of the field. That's why teams who do a lot of small sided games in training always have flexible players and formations, because once you go to 4v4 or 5v5 or something like that, positions stop existing, and there's only "where should you be in this moment?".

It's like "Total Football" didn't teach anyone anything

Fair enough! I've never envisaged Matic or Hamann as being the right type of athlete to play full back but fully admit that's my own ignorance

[PhaseOfPlay]

In the 4-3-3 depicted above, I'd have thought a full-back's skills are generally more transferable to the interior band than the holding midfielder's.

Alaba is a great example - he doesn't hold for Austria, he's very much box-to-box.

It's certainly not a hard and fast rule - my point was that the SKILLS for each band are the same, so theoretically, a player SHOULD be able to switch positions within their band. The second (implied) point was that fullbacks don't actually play on the same line as the centre halves when it comes down to it - they're not advanced like wingers, but they're also not pure defenders like centre halves - they are on the same line as DM's, but with more scope to get forward, so they get placed in that line, which means their skillsets should be broadly similar to the DM, in the way that wingers have broadly the same skillsets as strikers, and CM's have much the same skillsets too.

There's plenty of room for regional differences in this idea, though

[Crosby Nick]

in isolation that was probably one of our greatest results of all time. The team we had had no business getting through against an obscenely good juve team. Only a 2-1 lead to protect in probably the most intimidating away we could possibly play. What a night.

It’s incredible really. That bench is so inexperienced. The only senior pros were Smicer who at that point had barely featured all season and Cisse who I think saw his first action that night since his leg break in October.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Matic would be an excellent fullback! As I think would Hamann have been.

People are too allied to "positions", but positions don't really exist, only skills and athleticism, suited to the area of the field. That's why teams who do a lot of small sided games in training always have flexible players and formations, because once you go to 4v4 or 5v5 or something like that, positions stop existing, and there's only "where should you be in this moment?".

It's like "Total Football" didn't teach anyone anything

I agree with your wider point that we're too fixated on positions (and have long felt managers should experiment more - it's something I really liked about Rodgers!), but on this specific discussion it feels like you're under-estimating athleticism and over-estimating skills a little.

Matic certainly has some of the skills to be an 'excellent' full-back, but he lacks the fundamental athleticism to be a sustained success there at an elite level IMO. Could you imagine Mané or Oxlade up against him on Saturday with space to run into? Sure, his excellent reading of the game would help, but eventually he's going to get burned.

Going forward, too, I think he simply lacks the pace and agility to be effective on the overlap.

I think your diagram on the previous page would have been accurate ten years ago, and it probably still is at lower levels with more defensive-minded full-backs, but it's moved on at the very top now. Generally, full-backs' average positions and general skills are more in line with a box-to-box midfielder's than a holding midfielder's.

Of course, it's all player and system dependent though    (As your reply to me which I've only just seen basically summarises!)