Author Topic: anfield road stand  (Read 243343 times)

Offline CraigDS

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #160 on: January 8, 2016, 12:58:54 pm »
Yes, you would need to remove Skerries and probably Wylva Road as well, both of which I believe are currently being refurbished. Not happening any time soon, in other words.

The ones that back directly onto Anfield on Skerries we used to own, and for some reason decided to sell them for £1 (possibly £1 each) so they could be refurbed. This was a while ago now, Moores & Parry time, and the houses have been done up since around that time.

Not entirely sure if we owned the other side too and did the same.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #161 on: January 8, 2016, 01:01:52 pm »
The ones that back directly onto Anfield on Skerries we used to own, and for some reason decided to sell them for £1 (possibly £1 each) so they could be refurbed. This was a while ago now, Moores & Parry time, and the houses have been done up since around that time.

Not entirely sure if we owned the other side too and did the same.

All part of the long and often baffling story of the stadium saga.
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Offline Kop Kenny

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #162 on: February 1, 2016, 10:10:23 pm »
Would they have space in the External Parking and Concourse area to put another tier on the Centenary stand if need be in the future?

I am happy to stand corrected but is it not a H&S requirement to have the concourse area behind each stand these days for access?

The only way either the Centenary or the Kop could be expanded would be to completely knock them down and build a new design and the cost of that would be huge, for what we would gain in capacity and facilities the big question is "is it worth it"?
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Offline macca007

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #163 on: February 1, 2016, 10:38:10 pm »
I am happy to stand corrected but is it not a H&S requirement to have the concourse area behind each stand these days for access?

The only way either the Centenary or the Kop could be expanded would be to completely knock them down and build a new design and the cost of that would be huge, for what we would gain in capacity and facilities the big question is "is it worth it"?

Im sure Ive read that the centenary can't be expanded without a lot of obstacles.  I'm sure its at its maximum rake at the top so a new tier couldn't be added aswell as daylight regs for the houses behind.   So your right that you'd need to completely rebuild if the rows of houses where bought up but council couldn't help as its not partly derelict. Except if you did rebuild under the current guidelines for new stands it would mean less seats would be placed in the existing amount of space (new seats need to be wider or longer or even both) so you'd have to make it massive to even be the same capacity so you've spent a shitload for pretty much nothing.  Basically a no go.

Offline Jonny-B

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #164 on: February 4, 2016, 07:03:02 pm »
Yes without Skerries road being leveled (and those houses are nice) there will be no additions to the Centenary. And even then just bunging another tier on can't be done because the top tier is max rake already. Leaving anyone in the top tier not being able to see the near touch line.

The lack of foresight at the club to sell them off is another indictment on previous regimes. Perhaps mitigated by the fact they were going full steam ahead with a new stadium at the time.
« Last Edit: February 4, 2016, 07:07:47 pm by Jonny-B »

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #165 on: February 8, 2016, 04:04:12 pm »
Has the ticket price furore given FSG the ideal excuse not to build the Anny Road?
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #166 on: February 8, 2016, 04:10:48 pm »
Has the ticket price furore given FSG the ideal excuse not to build the Anny Road?

Why would it be an excuse?

The same stands now as it did previously as far as they are concerned - if there is enough demand for tickets at a price which makes the pretty huge investment viable then it'll be built.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #167 on: February 8, 2016, 05:12:20 pm »
Why would it be an excuse?

The same stands now as it did previously as far as they are concerned - if there is enough demand for tickets at a price which makes the pretty huge investment viable then it'll be built.

What about what is best for the Club it's fans or the wider community. I thought FSG purport to be sports fans interested in winning eh Craig ?
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #168 on: February 8, 2016, 05:19:40 pm »
What about what is best for the Club it's fans or the wider community. I thought FSG purport to be sports fans interested in winning eh Craig ?

They have never pretended to be anything other than running the club in a financially sensible way.

Now you won't get an argument out of me they've made massive errors along the way which would make this seem as if it's not the case (certain transfers or pricing decisions being two).

However the decision if to invest a further £75m (at a guess) into the stadium will be a simple one in the grand scheme of things in if it can pay for itself.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #169 on: February 8, 2016, 05:22:16 pm »
They have never pretended to be anything other than running the club in a financially sensible way.

Now you won't get an argument out of me they've made massive errors along the way which would make this seem as if it's not the case (certain transfers or pricing decisions being two).

However the decision if to invest a further £75m (at a guess) into the stadium will be a simple one in the grand scheme of things in if it can pay for itself.

Don't you mean if WE can pay for it mate.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #170 on: February 8, 2016, 05:23:57 pm »
Don't you mean if WE can pay for it mate.

I never said otherwise, in fact I made it fairly clear it will rest on if ticket prices/sales cover the costs.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #171 on: February 8, 2016, 06:45:45 pm »
Don't you mean if WE can pay for it mate.

Who else should be paying?
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #172 on: February 8, 2016, 07:12:41 pm »
Who else should be paying?

JWH has already told us.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=265701.0

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place – even though there is no stadium in place – just a lot of expensive plans etc.  We view stadiums as separate from clubs.  They are separate entities.


So according to JWH, Stadiums and Clubs are separate entities. Therefore FSG own Anfield and not the Club so surely FSG should be paying for any Stadium developments. They invest in their Stadium and the value of their investment goes up.

That makes far more sense than existing fans paying more for seats and facilities that they do not directly benefit from. Why should someone in another part of the ground pay more so that FSG can extend their Stadium. Surely we support the Football Club and not the Stadium.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #173 on: February 8, 2016, 07:21:42 pm »
JWH has already told us.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=265701.0

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place – even though there is no stadium in place – just a lot of expensive plans etc.  We view stadiums as separate from clubs.  They are separate entities.

So according to JWH, Stadiums and Clubs are separate entities. Therefore FSG own Anfield and not the Club so surely FSG should be paying for any Stadium developments. They invest in their Stadium and the value of their investment goes up.

Seperate entities as in the stadiums income pays for stadium work. Not revenue from elsewhere, say player sales, pays for stadium work.

Anfield is, and always has been (certainly under this and the last two owners) fully owned by the club and is it's asset directly.

It's has never been its own 'entity' as you're trying to define it.

As for investing in their stadium, surely you could make a similar argument for investing in players, or a training pitch, or a top manager, or, well anything to do with the club. It's all going to (if done right) going to make the value of the investment go up.

Quote
That makes far more sense than existing fans paying more for seats and facilities that they do not directly benefit from. Why should someone in another part of the ground pay more so that FSG can extend their Stadium. Surely we support the Football Club and not the Stadium.

The stadium is part of the club, and the club is part of the stadium. It's ridiculous to try and seperate the two as you're doing.

I can agree about the other fans paying for facilities they may not benefit from, but then I guess so do the club as that's why the tickets in the Main are now higher priced than a similarly positioned ticket in the Centenary.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #174 on: February 8, 2016, 09:21:12 pm »
Seperate entities as in the stadiums income pays for stadium work. Not revenue from elsewhere, say player sales, pays for stadium work.

Anfield is, and always has been (certainly under this and the last two owners) fully owned by the club and is it's asset directly.

It's has never been its own 'entity' as you're trying to define it.

As for investing in their stadium, surely you could make a similar argument for investing in players, or a training pitch, or a top manager, or, well anything to do with the club. It's all going to (if done right) going to make the value of the investment go up.

The stadium is part of the club, and the club is part of the stadium. It's ridiculous to try and seperate the two as you're doing.

I can agree about the other fans paying for facilities they may not benefit from, but then I guess so do the club as that's why the tickets in the Main are now higher priced than a similarly positioned ticket in the Centenary.

In that case are you saying that JWH was being ridiculous when he tried to justify leaving 37m of acquisition debt on the club by creating the FSG position that the club and the stadium are separate entities ?
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #175 on: February 8, 2016, 09:26:14 pm »
In that case are you saying that JWH was being ridiculous when he tried to justify leaving 37m of acquisition debt on the club by creating the FSG position that the club and the stadium are separate entities ?

No I'm suggesting he wanted the stadium income to pay for the stadium costs, including the £37m left over from H&G ridiculously expensive drawings, rather than this amount being covered from money from elsewhere (be it them, be it player sales, be it sponsorship income or some other revenue stream).

I'm not saying it's the best option, it would be great to have someone come in and spend £600m doing all sides of Anfield (alla Abromavich) with no expectation of this money back, but that option was never on the cards for us.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #176 on: February 8, 2016, 09:50:53 pm »
No I'm suggesting he wanted the stadium income to pay for the stadium costs, including the £37m left over from H&G ridiculously expensive drawings, rather than this amount being covered from money from elsewhere (be it them, be it player sales, be it sponsorship income or some other revenue stream).

I'm not saying it's the best option, it would be great to have someone come in and spend £600m doing all sides of Anfield (alla Abromavich) with no expectation of this money back, but that option was never on the cards for us.

So you are saying that the 37m was debt leveraged against the value of Club the and that FSG expected the Club to repay acquisition debt.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #177 on: February 8, 2016, 09:55:39 pm »
So you are saying that the 37m was debt leveraged against the value of Club the and that FSG expected the Club to repay acquisition debt.

No, I'm saying there was a seperate section of the finance facility originally set up by H&G which was specifically for the new stadium. The amount previously spent on expanding Anfield (or moving to a new stadium in this case) was left in this facility when we were bought, with presumably the expectation that the stadium expansion pays for itself (including this debt).

It has nothing to do with acquisition debt, just some ridiculously expensive drawings.

I'm not too sure where you're going with this Al, but it's already a long way from talking about the Anny Rd end.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #178 on: February 8, 2016, 10:11:22 pm »
So you are saying that the 37m was debt leveraged against the value of Club the and that FSG expected the Club to repay acquisition debt.


From The Liverpool Football Club and Athletic Grounds 2012 Accounts:

Quote
Net debt has increased from £65.4 million at 31 July 201 1 to £87.2 million at 31 May 2012 This is due to a
£29.8 million increase in net bank debt less a £8m decrease in intercompany debt As described in note 28
post balance sheet events - on 3 August 2012, UKSV Holdings Company Limited injected £46.8 million
in to the company via a non Interest bearing intercompany loan. This was used to fully repay the £37.8
million outstanding amount on the stadium loan facility
with the remaining £9 million being used to repay
part of the revolving credit facility The £120 million total facility is now available for general corporate
purposes

As Craig says this is the wrong thread for this debate.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #179 on: February 10, 2016, 11:11:32 am »
JWH has already told us.


Not what I asked. Classic Al swerve.
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Offline Keith Lard

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #180 on: February 11, 2016, 04:01:50 am »
The ones that back directly onto Anfield on Skerries we used to own, and for some reason decided to sell them for £1 (possibly £1 each) so they could be refurbed. This was a while ago now, Moores & Parry time, and the houses have been done up since around that time.

Not entirely sure if we owned the other side too and did the same.

Wow I never knew that.

But then again, FSG still ploughed ahead with the main stand expansion knowing this information, which says something in itself.

The ground will look very lopsided with this huge main stand towering over the rest of the stadium. Will be interesting over the next 10-20 years how Anfield develops.

I always anecdotally remember hearing an anfield resident talk about our owners wanting to develop Anfield to be the next Old Trafford.

What examples are there in world football where you have a tight ground like Anfield with around 45,000 capacity being extended to 70k+ through individual expansion of stands?
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #181 on: February 11, 2016, 07:30:57 am »
Wow I never knew that.

But then again, FSG still ploughed ahead with the main stand expansion knowing this information, which says something in itself.

The ground will look very lopsided with this huge main stand towering over the rest of the stadium. Will be interesting over the next 10-20 years how Anfield develops.

I always anecdotally remember hearing an anfield resident talk about our owners wanting to develop Anfield to be the next Old Trafford.

What examples are there in world football where you have a tight ground like Anfield with around 45,000 capacity being extended to 70k+ through individual expansion of stands?

Huge stand towering over the rest of the stadium:

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Offline Jonny-B

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #182 on: February 11, 2016, 11:43:51 am »
If you want to be fair to Coco, at the time Skerries was sold we were going full steam ahead for a new ground. It seems ludicrously short sited in hindsight though.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:27:29 pm by Jonny-B »

Offline MosDefKop

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #183 on: February 27, 2016, 03:51:29 pm »
Does anyone believe that FSG's climbdown on recent proposed ticket price rises makes the extension of the Anfield Road end more unlikely now on the basis that they will not be able to price the seats high enough to justify the extra expenditure.  That is my fear. 
They must now realise that they do not have total control of ticket prices

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #184 on: February 27, 2016, 04:24:33 pm »
Does anyone believe that FSG's climbdown on recent proposed ticket price rises makes the extension of the Anfield Road end more unlikely now on the basis that they will not be able to price the seats high enough to justify the extra expenditure.  That is my fear. 
They must now realise that they do not have total control of ticket prices

They'll take a medium/long term view when deciding whether or not to extend AR. A relatively small reduction in ticket revenue (from the club point of view) may increase the payback period for the initial investment, but it is unlikely to have a material effect on the overall investment decision.
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Offline Espresso Bar

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #185 on: February 27, 2016, 07:04:49 pm »
Does anyone believe that FSG's climbdown on recent proposed ticket price rises makes the extension of the Anfield Road end more unlikely now on the basis that they will not be able to price the seats high enough to justify the extra expenditure.  That is my fear. 
They must now realise that they do not have total control of ticket prices

The Annie Road needs to be redeveloped, if FSG can't afford it then they need to sell on to someone who can.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #186 on: February 27, 2016, 07:10:23 pm »
They'll take a medium/long term view when deciding whether or not to extend AR. A relatively small reduction in ticket revenue (from the club point of view) may increase the payback period for the initial investment, but it is unlikely to have a material effect on the overall investment decision.

They've also got some horrendous restricted views in the new Main Stand due to the truss and roof of the ARE. Surely they'll do it just to maximise the revenue from both the ARE and Main Stand. Also, if we're looking investment wise for FSG then they've given us an interest free loan to build the Main Stand so they don't lose anything in interest and they get all their money back. If they do the same for the ARE then it'll be similar and the club will be worth more due to the increased capacity. I'm confident they'll do it.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #187 on: February 27, 2016, 07:49:07 pm »
they've given us an interest free loan to build the Main Stand so they don't lose anything in interest and they get all their money back

I don't understand that bit. If they give us an interest free loan surely they lose the interest they would have got on the money if they hadn't lent it us?

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #188 on: February 27, 2016, 08:26:32 pm »
I don't understand that bit. If they give us an interest free loan surely they lose the interest they would have got on the money if they hadn't lent it us?

No, cos the extra value that the club will gain will surely be higher than any interest on a loan.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #189 on: February 27, 2016, 08:43:41 pm »
I don't understand that bit. If they give us an interest free loan surely they lose the interest they would have got on the money if they hadn't lent it us?

How generous of the owners to lend their money to the club they own so they can sell it for more money.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #190 on: February 27, 2016, 09:30:45 pm »
No, cos the extra value that the club will gain will surely be higher than any interest on a loan.

Ah, see what you mean.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #191 on: February 27, 2016, 10:44:42 pm »
How generous of the owners to lend their money to the club they own so they can sell it for more money.

These are hedge fund managers. If they wanted to invest for profit they would never choose a football club, it's a fucking ridiculous idea.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #192 on: February 27, 2016, 10:57:51 pm »
These are hedge fund managers. If they wanted to invest for profit they would never choose a football club, it's a fucking ridiculous idea.

What do you think they invested for then?

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #193 on: February 27, 2016, 11:16:28 pm »
What do you think they invested for then?

Prestige, mostly. There are some good posts about it in this thread:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=326218.0

But it's obvious that a group of hedge fund managers looking for a return on £400m+ could easily find far more profitable investments than sinking it into a football club. Even if the club ended up worth double what they paid after a decade, that's just not a solid investment for people like this.

If a hedge fund wants to make money out of football, they find a patsy like Tom Hicks and lend him the money to buy a club at a huge rate of interest. That way they get back far more than they put in, and don't need to worry about running the club itself.

Buying a club, running it without taking a dividend, investment in infrastructure, that's not worth the effort when they could make more in property or the stock market. What it does give them, though, is a level of prestige that is hard to buy, but only for as long as they own the club.

Now let's move on from this fantasy before another thread gets derailed and locked.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #194 on: February 28, 2016, 10:40:33 am »
Prestige, mostly. There are some good posts about it in this thread:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=326218.0

But it's obvious that a group of hedge fund managers looking for a return on £400m+ could easily find far more profitable investments than sinking it into a football club. Even if the club ended up worth double what they paid after a decade, that's just not a solid investment for people like this.

If a hedge fund wants to make money out of football, they find a patsy like Tom Hicks and lend him the money to buy a club at a huge rate of interest. That way they get back far more than they put in, and don't need to worry about running the club itself.

Buying a club, running it without taking a dividend, investment in infrastructure, that's not worth the effort when they could make more in property or the stock market. What it does give them, though, is a level of prestige that is hard to buy, but only for as long as they own the club.

Now let's move on from this fantasy before another thread gets derailed and locked.

They bought us for around 300m and 8 months ago the club was valued at 644m. Once the new stand is built God knows what it will be worth. The only fantasy is yours thinking they bought us for reasons of prestige.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #195 on: February 28, 2016, 10:44:53 am »
They bought us for around 300m and 8 months ago the club was valued at 644m. Once the new stand is built God knows what it will be worth. The only fantasy is yours thinking they bought us for reasons of prestige.

Doesn't matter for shit what a random site says its worth (I include Forbes in that who famously valued us at £1bn whilst Hicks and Gillet owned us, even with the piles of debt), someone needs to want to pay that and there really aren't a lot of people willing to spend £200m on a football club, let alone £650m.

As Nessy said, of course they'll make money from the deal eventually, however given their line of work (particularly Henry) he could probably make a lot more given the size of the initial investment for less hassle and less risk.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #196 on: February 28, 2016, 11:14:30 am »
They bought us for around 300m and 8 months ago the club was valued at 644m. Once the new stand is built God knows what it will be worth. The only fantasy is yours thinking they bought us for reasons of prestige.

Ok, as you like. Let's drop it.
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Offline pw1008

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #197 on: April 5, 2016, 08:37:47 am »
Fella I sit next to at the match has been doing some with through the place he works  with the architects of the Main Stand and he reckons the extension will go ahead (didnt give an estimated start time)  Said the architects are also working on Chelsea and Barcelona grounds. He's a genuine enough fella so sure he's telling the truth but hes being fed a line or not I don't know.

I didnt think it would go ahead purely because its not going to be cost effective - hopefully it does.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #198 on: April 5, 2016, 08:48:14 am »
Fella I sit next to at the match has been doing some with through the place he works  with the architects of the Main Stand and he reckons the extension will go ahead (didnt give an estimated start time)  Said the architects are also working on Chelsea and Barcelona grounds. He's a genuine enough fella so sure he's telling the truth but hes being fed a line or not I don't know.

I didnt think it would go ahead purely because its not going to be cost effective - hopefully it does.

Chelsea's is designed by Herzog & de Meuron, Barca by Nikken Sekkei, and our Main Stand was designed by KSS.

3 different architects.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #199 on: April 5, 2016, 09:02:32 am »
Well the are clearly filling his head full of it then!