Author Topic: Stupid Football  (Read 36454 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2012, 02:03:40 pm »
Players of sport are not those ego-less machines. Supremacy is not attained via conformity and formation. To win in sport or football consistently and repeatedly requires not only technical skill, application and coolness under pressure, it also but more importantly requires drive, passion and most of all, brilliance.

Brilliance in war too often leads to vainglorious and reckless performance, post-humous reward or worse, death of your team mates. Even spectacularly overwhelming force in tight battle lines are not overriding factors. Wars won are wars of attrition.

.

Is sport really all that different? Brilliance can be a liability in sport too, if it isn't harnessed correctly. There's plenty of, say, 'Tino Asprilla's around world football who testify to how damaging brilliance can be if it's not subsumed to the greater cause.

The OP obviously goes very deeply but on a very basic level I can't help but agree with the idea that we play 'stupid football'. Bad decisions all over the place. What's interesting is the kind of set up to eliminate this sort of stupidity, or at least to manage it. What encourages me this season is that we seem to be so close. What worries me is that we've had the same problems and the same feelings since game one - it doesn't seem like we've really addressed our issues within the season.

Which makes me wonder if the management are aware of/acting upon this stupidity, or whether that stupidity actually comes, in no small part, from them? It's not a question we can answer until next season, but between this and the Prof thread I do have worries about the extent to which we are actually analysing and studying our football in a more academic way in order to find solutions to problems. I worry that we're maybe going about things in more of an 'old school' way reliant on personal instinct and judgement, which of course there's nothing wrong with but I think these days if you don't combine that with rigorous, more scientific analysis you leave your club at a disadvantage - because every other club we're competing with does take that scientific side very seriously indeed.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 02:13:24 pm »
Driving ego out of the game may be wholly appropriate to a war scenario, where nothing - absolutely nothing, matters more than winning. Not even survival. The paths of glory in war do indeed lead but to the grave.

Players of sport are not those ego-less machines. Supremacy is not attained via conformity and formation. To win in sport or football consistently and repeatedly requires not only technical skill, application and coolness under pressure, it also but more importantly requires drive, passion and most of all, brilliance.

Brilliance in war too often leads to vainglorious and reckless performance, post-humous reward or worse, death of your team mates. Even spectacularly overwhelming force in tight battle lines are not overriding factors. Wars won are wars of attrition.

The ability to go the last inch on the football pitch, the flash of genius (the overhead kick from a galoot of a central defender) comes from somewhere else. Luck? Yes - Napoleon always asked his prospective commanders if they were lucky - but rather, instinct. You either have genius or you do not. It can neither be taught nor mentored. The path to the genius within a player (Bellamy perhaps) can be cleared but genius must be there in the first place and genius is always fueled by ego. Not the denying of it.

This isn't Cycling. Process does not dominate Brilliance.

See Shankly's explanation of Liverpool's football and how he tried to create a structure that would give him the best chance of winning. And how that structure was perpetuated after he'd left, with different players in place of the ones he had when he originally set it up. Process matters. Having the right process in place was why we were so successful for so long.
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Offline The Ghost of Titi Camara

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2012, 02:18:21 pm »
Brilliant OP. Stupid football has rankled me, like many of you, from the moment I started watching the game. As a very young child, I was more exposed to Italian football than English games, so my consciousness of stupid football and its effects heightened the more I saw the inefficient, clunky and tactically inept variant of the game that seems to have always predominated in England. As others have mentioned in the thread, this is something that we might see borne out on the pitch, but is caused by a deeper underlying problem in the minds of players. Stupid people play stupid football. It's very difficult to coach them out of it (there are exceptions). Roy talked about 'craft' as being one of the qualities that sets apart the superior breed of footballer and he's quite right. One problem is that our national character, and specifically the cultural characteristics in our working classes (which produce the overwhelming majority of players), are not given to valuing craft. Rash decision-making, short-termism, outbursts of irrational behaviour all characterise the stupid footballer. But these are also the same characteristics that have led to the degradation of our society more broadly. They're the same characteristics that have led to Britain topping Europe's teen pregnancy rates in recent years.

The point is this. Liverpool Football Club exists for two reasons - firstly, to win things, but more importantly, as an example to the footballing world. We exist to lead. The idea of us pioneering pass-and-move as a successful approach and our keenness to say "We're not English, we're Scouse" comes from the same place. We're supposed to be outliers, that's our purpose. The style we play with on the pitch, the way we're managed and the ways we show our support are supposed to be different, to be exemplary. They're supposed to be tied together by an intelligence that is absent in the rest of the national character. Liverpool Football Club and the city more generally is supposed to be an island. That's why I'm heartened to see so many technically gifted players in the Academy and even more heartened by our desire to look around the world for players who fit that bill. The back end of last season was in many ways about picking up where Rafa left off. I was optimistic that the long-term philosophy that made us feared around Europe - to control the game, with talented players who are tactically aware and are selected for their superior decision-making, mental stability and general intelligence (Pepe, Dagger, Lucas, Xabi, Luis Garcia, Maxi, Aquilani, Torres) - would flourish with a new batch of additions as well as very talented home-grown lads who fit that philosophy. Like many others, I can't see the logic behind disturbing that idea. It's our philosophy. We taught the world to appreciate it and it seemed as if we were about to do so again. The Holy Trinity of an intelligent team, a fearsome crowd and a management team that looks after its own and keeps its problems in-house isn't just nostalgic, emotional guff. It's deeply pragmatic and ultimately, it comes down to craft. Ask any referee who's heard the roar of the Kop for a dubious handball shout in the box in the 92nd minute whether we've got craft. That "kwalitee" and "mentalitee, no?" were some of the words we heard most often in recent years is not accidental. Craft and intelligence have to be the foundations of our success.

In terms of practical solutions, there are some things we can do, but they all need to be part of a deepening of our own philosophy at every level inside the club. Sports psychiatrists may be able to help individuals with particular obstacles, but it's the strength of our brand internally which will show every player, every Academy recruit and every coach that we have a distinct way of doing things that characterises our conduct and decision-making on and off the pitch. We had an imposing global corporate brand long before any management guru came along with a self-help book. We've developed it in recent years, but it's our footballing decisions that have impeded us from making those ideal values come to life. Our induction process has to hammer home the simple ideas about decision-making mentioned in the OP (especially around awareness and space) and our scouting process has to be tighter in taking a player's personal background more seriously in weighting transfer decisions. Certain things are clear:

1. I despise cut-and-run decisions. They are fundamentally small-time. But when you screw up and make a bad trade, sometimes it just has to be done. This is most appropriate when we know a decision to have been wrong all along (see Podge). I'm talking about Charlie Adam. There's just no way anyone could be sober and put him in our first XI, let alone pin hopes of building it around him. I can't see a place for him in an intelligent team or squad. He epitomises the stupid footballer. Let go.

2. We need an urgent reassessment of those of our signings who don't fit the philosophy of mental stability, certitude, awareness and sound decision-making. Each one of them needs an action plan that highlights their core weaknesses and demands measurable improvements (these won't always be visible on graphs, but will be in-game) by the end of the season. They need to know they're being managed in two ways - being helped with any confidence problems or personal barriers to success, but also that there is a timeline for action if their decision-making in particular fails to improve. There's only so much stupidity that can be coached out. For some of them, this might mean losing their first XI places and for others, more serious measures.

3. It was clear that our scouting process in the recent past relied heavily on in-depth background checks and a necessity for certain conditions to be met in that regard. We need to raise this bar again, but also supplement it. Every player has a medical and I assume that before we make a decision on a player, there is some degree of psychological testing done too. We need to develop our own testing procedure specific to the club, with both paper and field exercises in decision-making, tactics and simulated pressure tests. Even if we don't use these as a dealbreaker, they would give us a picture of what needs to be done with individual players psychologically from their first day at the club.
I do remember being sat in Off The Pitch four years ago being told I was doom-mongering about Hicks and Gillett. It's made me cautious: some of you sound positively Candide-esque in your refusal to keep a watching brief.

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2012, 02:24:33 pm »
This isn't Cycling. Process does not dominate Brilliance.

I'm certainly not suggesting that ego's removed from the equation Peter - it's not some kind of bhuddist retreat being suggested for players. ;D

Clarity of mind and good habits only help to build the right kind of focus around the drive, passion and brilliance I'd argue, whether it's cycling or rugby or delivering a speech.

You're not replacing anything - in Peters' case he's simply helping them remove the obstacles that prevent them performing at the level they want.

Woodward’s team fell apart after that World Cup. Not, it would seem for want of psychological preparation. In fact he intensified the approach to the point of open revolt amongst the players (more or less - it was only public afterwards).

He would have done better to look for the next crop of talented players. The kind of players that had got him where he got in the first place. He may have done better to do that and let them have their heads rather than try to weave silk out of sow’s ears. Seems, first time around he 'just' got lucky.

Without getting into the detail of Woodward's departure from the England set up, the point made was a general one about selection and coaching.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2012, 02:25:55 pm »
Great overall post, though I've got to say I hate it when people propose a list of solutions for a problem that's clearly fairly deep (and where you've got so much depth in your post) only to make point number one 'sell player x'. 'sell/buy player x' is never a useful proposal in this kind of debate - it's all about looking beyond individuals and trying to look at structures, or ways to impliment structures (counting mentality as a kind of structure just for the sake of argument here). Again though, top post apart from that.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2012, 02:47:34 pm »
Its been the refreshing thing about the calm composed CB pairing for the best part of this year.

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2012, 02:48:39 pm »
another brilliant effort Roy, by the way.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2012, 02:58:24 pm »
Driving ego out of the game may be wholly appropriate to a war scenario, where nothing - absolutely nothing, matters more than winning. Not even survival. The paths of glory in war do indeed lead but to the grave.

Players of sport are not those ego-less machines. Supremacy is not attained via conformity and formation. To win in sport or football consistently and repeatedly requires not only technical skill, application and coolness under pressure, it also but more importantly requires drive, passion and most of all, brilliance.

Brilliance in war too often leads to vainglorious and reckless performance, post-humous reward or worse, death of your team mates. Even spectacularly overwhelming force in tight battle lines are not overriding factors. Wars won are wars of attrition.

The ability to go the last inch on the football pitch, the flash of genius (the overhead kick from a galoot of a central defender) comes from somewhere else. Luck? Yes - Napoleon always asked his prospective commanders if they were lucky - but rather, instinct. You either have genius or you do not. It can neither be taught nor mentored. The path to the genius within a player (Bellamy perhaps) can be cleared but genius must be there in the first place and genius is always fueled by ego. Not the denying of it.

This isn't Cycling. Process does not dominate Brilliance.

Torres is another with a ‘mental issue’ apparently. Look at the dispassionate gob on him these days. He has clearly had his ego tutored out of him (for all we know, at Liverpool). He did well against weak opposition the other night but where has his undeniable genius gone?

Woodward’s team fell apart after that World Cup. Not, it would seem for want of psychological preparation. In fact he intensified the approach to the point of open revolt amongst the players (more or less - it was only public afterwards).

He would have done better to look for the next crop of talented players. The kind of players that had got him where he got in the first place. He may have done better to do that and let them have their heads rather than try to weave silk out of sow’s ears. Seems, first time around he 'just' got lucky.

.


Thats an excellent post. But Football isnt always played by the brilliant. Brilliance is a scarce comodity in any task, sporting or otherwise. And one would argue that our access to brilliance is restricted for many reasons. The whole point of the article as far as i see it is to eliminate the truely "Stupid", to put into place a framework or process that has as many of the gremlins designed out as is humanly possible. It will never be achieved after all humans are humans, but to create a truely cold and calculating team in which brillaince can be sprinkled has to be a no brainer surely. The more comfortingly vanilla the canvas the more effective the big bold strokes of colour. And any brilliance that we do uncover cant be at the expense of having to accept the truely stupid. Rafa was an old pro when it came to this. If you were Stupid (didnt have the mentaliteeee) he hoiked you out.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 03:22:07 pm by exiledinyorkshire »

Offline The Ghost of Titi Camara

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2012, 03:07:04 pm »

I agree and didn't want to derail the thread into being one about particular decisions, because it is about a philosophy. However, there should always be a strong link between what we believe and how we act, just as the stupid footballer is characterised by his stupid decisions time after time. I'm loth to critique ideas without suggesting a solution where possible and I think the things I mentioned above go a tiny, tiny way to solving the deeper underlying problems.

There are many who accuse us of having an exceptionalism complex, but I'd say that's what makes us successful. Our worldview is different, our politics are different, our philosophy is different. It's not high-handed status quo exceptionalism (think of the Tories or the U.S. in foreign relations), but rather a kind of revolutionary exceptionalism that has a radical vision of progress and sticks the course when everyone around us becomes coarse. So the idea of suggesting tangible actions is based on a belief in praxis in the Gramscian sense rather than any jester-hat kneejerking. We know our philosophy, let's establish a process to embed it and ensure it is total within the club. We'll know it's taken hold when we see two quality players that some would love us to sign and say to ourselves, "He may be very good, but X is not a Liverpool player, whereas Y is" and be able to define the requisite qualities very clearly. We've been at that point before, we need to get there again.
I do remember being sat in Off The Pitch four years ago being told I was doom-mongering about Hicks and Gillett. It's made me cautious: some of you sound positively Candide-esque in your refusal to keep a watching brief.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2012, 04:02:14 pm »
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline hassinator

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 05:11:01 pm »
no one is buying 'tweening' as a reason for our inconsistency then?

Offline Redwhiteandnotblue

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 05:21:57 pm »
Torres is another with a ‘mental issue’ apparently. Look at the dispassionate gob on him these days. He has clearly had his ego tutored out of him (for all we know, at Liverpool). He did well against weak opposition the other night but where has his undeniable genius gone?

Woodward’s team fell apart after that World Cup. Not, it would seem for want of psychological preparation. In fact he intensified the approach to the point of open revolt amongst the players (more or less - it was only public afterwards).

He would have done better to look for the next crop of talented players. The kind of players that had got him where he got in the first place. He may have done better to do that and let them have their heads rather than try to weave silk out of sow’s ears. Seems, first time around he 'just' got lucky.

.


Yes, Woodward's team fell apart, but much of that was down to a) the egos that had been created by winning the World Cup that he was not able to bring back to earth and b) the famous 57 Old Farts in the RFU HQ who had no ambition once the trophy was won. It's not for nothing that the likes of Evans and Moran would start pre-season training telling the team that they had won "nothing" and "that was last year". It's too easy to rest on your laurels, harder to repeat what you've achieved, as the likes of Blackpool found out and Swansea and Norwich will probably find out next year.

That lack of ambition from England has seen Wales win three Grand Slams since England's last one. :)

One of the pillars of the last two slams from Wales has been Shaun Edwards coaching. Exactly that same knowledge that you can rely on your teammate to die for the cause and that you'll do it because he'll do it has been instilled. Furthermore, Edwards insists that Wales are "the best at the things that require no skill, just determination". These include getting up quickly, stopping quick lineouts being taken, getting back into position after a tackle. The last time Wales lost the second half of a match was Paris, last year, (about 18 matches ago) when Edwards was missing. Before that, it was the summer of 2010 (about 27 matches ago) in the southern hemisphere.

I really don't think we have this mental attitude in our squad, and I don't think we've had anything closely resembling it since 08-09. I think we need a new captain and a new attitude, particularly to all of the little things that make a big difference when added together. It's almost as though the team think the season, FA Cup apart, is over, because we're safely in Europe but can't make the top 4. If Arsenal had had that attitude when they were 10 points behind Spurs, where would they be now? 3rd or 7th? Chelsea and Spurs are there for the taking and we are bottling it, through a negative mental attitude.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 05:23:45 pm »
Thats an excellent post. But Football isnt always played by the brilliant. Brilliance is a scarce comodity in any task, sporting or otherwise. And one would argue that our access to brilliance is restricted for many reasons. The whole point of the article as far as i see it is to eliminate the truely "Stupid", to put into place a framework or process that has as many of the gremlins designed out as is humanly possible. It will never be achieved after all humans are humans, but to create a truely cold and calculating team in which brillaince can be sprinkled has to be a no brainer surely. The more comfortingly vanilla the canvas the more effective the big bold strokes of colour. And any brilliance that we do uncover cant be at the expense of having to accept the truely stupid. Rafa was an old pro when it came to this. If you were Stupid (didnt have the mentaliteeee) he hoiked you out.

With respect, I find the notion of nurturing wannabes a little bit 'mid-table'. The question must always be, has this player or that player got 'it'? Talent. Genius. Football isn’t always played by the brilliant. But great football is.

In any great football team, the eradication, or minimisation, of the stupid is almost a given. While I don’t necessarily agree with you about Rafa, the point is well made. A lack of stupidity is almost a baseline, below which we dare not go.

However, the concentration on losing the ‘stupid’ is not... clever. Going back to Woodward, he would have done better to focus on replacing his brilliant players with more brilliant players. Players for whom intelligent play was a given...

Like them or loathe them now, the relative prominence of ex-LFC players, like Hansen or Lawrenson, in the media is indicative of a general level of 'intelligence' at the club. You could rarely accuse them of stupid play. Which is not to confuse intelligence, or the lack of it, with 'stupid play'. Dare I say it but perhaps Dalglish was not the sharpest knife on the pitch (as it were) but he had an innate genius for football and positional sense, when to pass, when not to shoot. Most importantly he had the ego to take the chance. To back himself (as they used to like to say in Rugby). And he wouldn’t be entirely alone there, in any great Liverpool team.

My point is that with limited time and resource, it would be more productive to drag the genius out where genius exists than invest in a heavyweight infrastructure to eliminate the stupidity which shouldn’t be there! That starts with growing or buying the brilliant and winnowing out or shunning the stupid - long before they got anywhere near a first team shirt.

Our prime focus should the identification of genius and letting it out where it needs to be. Not fixing what shouldn't be broke.

.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:57:51 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2012, 06:02:53 pm »
Yes, Woodward's team fell apart, but much of that was down to a) the egos that had been created by winning the World Cup that he was not able to bring back to earth and b) the famous 57 Old Farts in the RFU HQ who had no ambition once the trophy was won. It's not for nothing that the likes of Evans and Moran would start pre-season training telling the team that they had won "nothing" and "that was last year". It's too easy to rest on your laurels, harder to repeat what you've achieved, as the likes of Blackpool found out and Swansea and Norwich will probably find out next year.

That lack of ambition from England has seen Wales win three Grand Slams since England's last one. :)

One of the pillars of the last two slams from Wales has been Shaun Edwards coaching. Exactly that same knowledge that you can rely on your teammate to die for the cause and that you'll do it because he'll do it has been instilled. Furthermore, Edwards insists that Wales are "the best at the things that require no skill, just determination". These include getting up quickly, stopping quick lineouts being taken, getting back into position after a tackle. The last time Wales lost the second half of a match was Paris, last year, (about 18 matches ago) when Edwards was missing. Before that, it was the summer of 2010 (about 27 matches ago) in the southern hemisphere.

I really don't think we have this mental attitude in our squad, and I don't think we've had anything closely resembling it since 08-09. I think we need a new captain and a new attitude, particularly to all of the little things that make a big difference when added together. It's almost as though the team think the season, FA Cup apart, is over, because we're safely in Europe but can't make the top 4. If Arsenal had had that attitude when they were 10 points behind Spurs, where would they be now? 3rd or 7th? Chelsea and Spurs are there for the taking and we are bottling it, through a negative mental attitude.

Not from Wales are you boy?  :D

You see that was the difference with Woodward. He carried on with motivational messages behind dressing room hooks and up the steps to the players’ entrance. He kept telling them they were the best thing since sliced bread. He carried on trying to fix something that wasn’t broke. You’re right, he should have bollocked them for their arrogance. But arrogance isn’t ego or self-belief or talent.

And, I think you could be bang on about the captain. Gerrard leads by example. By doing. God forbid he should say something on the pitch. It's unfortunate that in football, the captain must lead and do at the same. Not a good recipe for management. A good captain does less and leads more.

As for the season, I disagree. Faced with the frame-by-frame scrutiny of the media and instant success or failure, we have probably 6 players out there crapping themselves every time they go on the pitch. At times, they have dealt with it. At times, they haven't (normally when they have the added pressure of being expected to do well). Maybe that means they shouldn't be on the pitch. But hey, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Maybe that means they're too bright. Maybe 'brilliant' players aren't bright enough to be scared (ok, lack the imagination). I'm sorry. You can't teach that. You have ultimate self-belief or you don't. You're a genius or you're not.

As for last night. We were tonking it. No lack of effort there. Give QPR credit where it's due. They never gave up and maybe they got a bit of luck. Really.

.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:16:56 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2012, 06:18:35 pm »
no one is buying 'tweening' as a reason for our inconsistency then?

Second season syndrome?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2012, 06:25:42 pm »
Like them or loathe them now, the relative prominence of ex-LFC players, like Hansen or Lawrenson, in the media is indicative of a general level of 'intelligence' at the club. You could rarely accuse them of stupid play. Which is not to confuse intelligence, or the lack of it, with 'stupid play'. Dare I say it but perhaps Dalglish was not the sharpest knife on the pitch (as it were) but he had an innate genius for football and positional sense, when to pass, when not to shoot. Most importantly he had the ego to take the chance. To back himself (as they used to like to say in Rugby). And he wouldn’t be entirely alone there, in any great Liverpool team.

It's all very well having a horde of ex-Liverpool players in the media. But, as we've seen to their benefit again and again, Man Utd benefit far more from a horde of ex-Man Utd players in management positions in the league. Carragher could probably do more for Liverpool by taking up a management post elsewhere, along with other retiring Liverpool players.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2012, 06:32:15 pm »
It's all very well having a horde of ex-Liverpool players in the media. But, as we've seen to their benefit again and again, Man Utd benefit far more from a horde of ex-Man Utd players in management positions in the league. Carragher could probably do more for Liverpool by taking up a management post elsewhere, along with other retiring Liverpool players.

Ooh, you don't mean....

.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 pm »
Ooh, you don't mean....

.


No names mentioned, and none thought of, as Carragher's the only one who's spoken of taking up coaching. But every time I see Ferguson's cronies and graduates ganging up against us, I'm annoyed by how our lot all took up media posts rather than management.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2012, 07:19:35 pm »
It´s more about those Ex Manu players in manager positions not showing up with their team against the old master of the dark...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 07:21:07 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Sangria

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2012, 07:38:27 pm »
It´s more about those Ex Manu players in manager positions not showing up with their team against the old master of the dark...

Or buying Man Utd cast offs for stupid money.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2012, 07:52:54 pm »
Or buying Man Utd cast offs for stupid money.

We should still be fair to old whiskey Alex though. There has to be a way to secure top 4 football and a CL spot guaranteed every year considering his tactical abilities and others outspending him. Poor, poor Alex is simply forced to keep his loyal knights around...
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2012, 09:21:47 pm »
With respect, I find the notion of nurturing wannabes a little bit 'mid-table'. The question must always be, has this player or that player got 'it'? Talent. Genius. Football isn’t always played by the brilliant. But great football is.

In any great football team, the eradication, or minimisation, of the stupid is almost a given. While I don’t necessarily agree with you about Rafa, the point is well made. A lack of stupidity is almost a baseline, below which we dare not go.

However, the concentration on losing the ‘stupid’ is not... clever. Going back to Woodward, he would have done better to focus on replacing his brilliant players with more brilliant players. Players for whom intelligent play was a given...

Like them or loathe them now, the relative prominence of ex-LFC players, like Hansen or Lawrenson, in the media is indicative of a general level of 'intelligence' at the club. You could rarely accuse them of stupid play. Which is not to confuse intelligence, or the lack of it, with 'stupid play'. Dare I say it but perhaps Dalglish was not the sharpest knife on the pitch (as it were) but he had an innate genius for football and positional sense, when to pass, when not to shoot. Most importantly he had the ego to take the chance. To back himself (as they used to like to say in Rugby). And he wouldn’t be entirely alone there, in any great Liverpool team.

My point is that with limited time and resource, it would be more productive to drag the genius out where genius exists than invest in a heavyweight infrastructure to eliminate the stupidity which shouldn’t be there! That starts with growing or buying the brilliant and winnowing out or shunning the stupid - long before they got anywhere near a first team shirt.

Our prime focus should the identification of genius and letting it out where it needs to be. Not fixing what shouldn't be broke.

.


ok kind of see what your saying. But if you were to stop everything now.................. what is to be done, where exactly are we. Any footballer finding himself with a proffessional contract at Liverpool has to have a latent natural ability. We as a team are suffering at both ends at the moment, we are not pulling from the playing staff the "brilliance" that they have in them, and we are failing to a lesser degree to irradicate the "stupid" that they posssess. I would argue that a fully fit starting 11 for the club at this moment actually contains the bare minimum "stupidity" and possibly just about enough "brilliance" to be a top 4 side.

This is a rambling thought to be fair, but for one reason or another we just simply havent had the right balance through out the course of the season. My main problem with Rafas team towards the end, and the only reason that i was perhaps willing to let him leave was because i never thought the "brilliance" was given a chance to manifest itself. It was becoming and almost joyless robotic oh so close type of existence. Its only now that perhaps a Rafaesque base (for me anyway) is yearned for. It would still have to be Rafa + if you like, and i'm still confident that what i'm seeing at the moment is Kenny taking a step backwards in order to make the great leap forward. However for this to be the case we need the brilliance to imerge, either in the summer from elswhere,  or from the reserves, and one would hope that anything thats been in the system for any period of time would have had the Stupid already knocked out of them. And the reserves for me is the way forward, it would appear to be the only real way of producing playing staff with the "stupid" engineered out and the "brilliance" given the enviroment to express itself.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2012, 09:31:38 pm »
See Shankly's explanation of Liverpool's football and how he tried to create a structure that would give him the best chance of winning. And how that structure was perpetuated after he'd left, with different players in place of the ones he had when he originally set it up. Process matters. Having the right process in place was why we were so successful for so long.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=287784.msg10066347#msg10066347


Is sport really all that different? Brilliance can be a liability in sport too, if it isn't harnessed correctly. There's plenty of, say, 'Tino Asprilla's around world football who testify to how damaging brilliance can be if it's not subsumed to the greater cause.

The OP obviously goes very deeply but on a very basic level I can't help but agree with the idea that we play 'stupid football'. Bad decisions all over the place. What's interesting is the kind of set up to eliminate this sort of stupidity, or at least to manage it. What encourages me this season is that we seem to be so close. What worries me is that we've had the same problems and the same feelings since game one - it doesn't seem like we've really addressed our issues within the season.

Which makes me wonder if the management are aware of/acting upon this stupidity, or whether that stupidity actually comes, in no small part, from them? It's not a question we can answer until next season, but between this and the Prof thread I do have worries about the extent to which we are actually analysing and studying our football in a more academic way in order to find solutions to problems. I worry that we're maybe going about things in more of an 'old school' way reliant on personal instinct and judgement, which of course there's nothing wrong with but I think these days if you don't combine that with rigorous, more scientific analysis you leave your club at a disadvantage - because every other club we're competing with does take that scientific side very seriously indeed.

There’s plenty of players of genius out there who will say, “you wanna put me in a box? Im off”. There are also plenty who suit us and how we want to play. It’s up to us to find them (or grow them).

As I’ve said, I don’t think we have ‘stupid players’, I think we have players who do not have sufficient self-belief not to be ‘fearful players’. It will take a while to get it right. And maybe we have been a bit closer in the last few years but jeez we’ve had some heroes leave.

However I’m sure that the club already knows that in some (few) cases, they have already got it wrong. And that might be from a combination of Kenny's cheese and Comolli's chalk. But if that is the case, they must go.



I agree and didn't want to derail the thread into being one about particular decisions, because it is about a philosophy. However, there should always be a strong link between what we believe and how we act, just as the stupid footballer is characterised by his stupid decisions time after time. I'm loth to critique ideas without suggesting a solution where possible and I think the things I mentioned above go a tiny, tiny way to solving the deeper underlying problems.

There are many who accuse us of having an exceptionalism complex, but I'd say that's what makes us successful. Our worldview is different, our politics are different, our philosophy is different. It's not high-handed status quo exceptionalism (think of the Tories or the U.S. in foreign relations), but rather a kind of revolutionary exceptionalism that has a radical vision of progress and sticks the course when everyone around us becomes coarse. So the idea of suggesting tangible actions is based on a belief in praxis in the Gramscian sense rather than any jester-hat kneejerking. We know our philosophy, let's establish a process to embed it and ensure it is total within the club. We'll know it's taken hold when we see two quality players that some would love us to sign and say to ourselves, "He may be very good, but X is not a Liverpool player, whereas Y is" and be able to define the requisite qualities very clearly. We've been at that point before, we need to get there again.

Man...! There’s a quote I thought I’d never see here. But as I understand it, everything we know about Gramsci is up in the air since the wall came down... (yep, I googled it).

Setting aside the social engineering/potentially eugenic overtones at the start of your previous post, there’s a lot in what you say about Liverpool as a city and exceptionalism.

My Dad used to call it a ‘Corinthian attitude’ ie., when everyone else is doing the easy, base thing, we carry on. We maintain the standards of our youth and even of our elders. We look to a better place where money doesn’t buy (league) titles and Abramovitch should be in gaol back home where he belongs (allegedly).

***

On the whole I would agree with rather than chastise you for your points of action and if I may and in relation to this...

ok kind of see what your saying. But if you were to stop everything now.................. what is to be done, where exactly are we. Any footballer finding himself with a proffessional contract at Liverpool has to have a latent natural ability. We as a team are suffering at both ends at the moment, we are not pulling from the playing staff the "brilliance" that they have in them, and we are failing to a lesser degree to irradicate the "stupid" that they posssess. I would argue that a fully fit starting 11 for the club at this moment actually contains the bare minimum "stupidity" and possibly just about enough "brilliance" to be a top 4 side.

This is a rambling thought to be fair, but for one reason or another we just simply havent had the right balance through out the course of the season. My main problem with Rafas team towards the end, and the only reason that i was perhaps willing to let him leave was because i never thought the "brilliance" was given a chance to manifest itself. It was becoming and almost joyless robotic oh so close type of existence. Its only now that perhaps a Rafaesque base (for me anyway) is yearned for. It would still have to be Rafa + if you like, and i'm still confident that what i'm seeing at the moment is Kenny taking a step backwards in order to make the great leap forward. However for this to be the case we need the brilliance to imerge, either in the summer from elswhere,  or from the reserves, and one would hope that anything thats been in the system for any period of time would have had the Stupid already knocked out of them. And the reserves for me is the way forward, it would appear to be the only real way of producing playing staff with the "stupid" engineered out and the "brilliance" given the enviroment to express itself.

... I would say that Rome was not built in a day and I’m sure that FSG and the management are aware of that. I’m sure that the plan is to winnow our way away, not towards more cold and calculating play but towards more heart-warming and instinctive play. More play of Genius. I guess that's why FSG see Kenny as a risk and that's why Kenny is there.

In the interim, we have fearful players who are not players of genius. They do not all have the self-belief and self-esteem of a Gerrard or a Suarez and we must work with the cards as dealt. So we are not failing to eradicate stupid play but rather we’re failing to eradicate fearful play.

***

I would also agree with you about Rafa. He never really understood the Liverpool Way in the way to treat genius.

The Liverpool Way is to know what players of what type to grow or buy and where to put them; to know what to say to them and how to get the best from them. Never, ever, to tell them what to do. It was fluid. We played to our strengths. If that was tactics, the responsibility was kept away from the players. The players were left to get on with it. There was no room for them to be stupid about it.

Rafa was the arch meddler. He put players in a box and would never ever let their genius out. And every single player dared not step out of that box. They were fearful. This worked in so far as Rafa’s ideas worked. Beyond that - nothing. Rafa’s responsibility. Rafa’s successes. Rafa’s failures.

For me the one person who stepped out of that box did so in Istanbul - pure Genius.

.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 07:40:10 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline GeneticRed

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2012, 10:02:42 pm »
As for last night. We were tonking it. No lack of effort there. Give QPR credit where it's due. They never gave up and maybe they got a bit of luck. Really.

.

You could classify it as luck i suppose. But any of those goals we conceded last night would've been a shocker to concede at any time. The fact that all three came in the last thirteen minutes of the same game should send alarm bells ringing loud and clear.
They were poor goals to concede at sunday league level. Any pub team manager would be fully entitled to fully bollock his defenders for them. No one was more surprised at their win than QPR. We gave them the game. We completely capitulated and yet again didn't know how to protect a lead. It suggests deep problems in mentality and approach. We are brittle far too often.

Offline Rusty

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2012, 10:03:33 pm »
It's strange, the back end of last season we looked like a really intelligent team, some of the footy we played with Meireles, Maxi and Suarez was exactly what you were describing as "intelligent". Fast forward a year and we've replaced that with the stupidity of Adam (main culprit), Downing and Carroll (in his defence a lot of the stupidity happens before it reaches him). Still can't quite understand the rationale for those signings, when it seemed a year ago we were set for high-tempo, effective pass-and-move footy.

Will be very interesting to see who we pick up and get rid of in the summer.
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Offline The Ghost of Titi Camara

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2012, 10:48:01 pm »
It's strange, the back end of last season we looked like a really intelligent team, some of the footy we played with Meireles, Maxi and Suarez was exactly what you were describing as "intelligent". Fast forward a year and we've replaced that with the stupidity of Adam (main culprit), Downing and Carroll (in his defence a lot of the stupidity happens before it reaches him). Still can't quite understand the rationale for those signings, when it seemed a year ago we were set for high-tempo, effective pass-and-move footy.

Will be very interesting to see who we pick up and get rid of in the summer.

It will be a very interesting summer, more so for all of us who expected to build on the fluid, intelligent philosophy. Last summer was one that outraged me. We'd been through the worst of the worst, been in the depths of the worst days trying to save the club after it was mired in dirt precisely to protect certain values, only to see the sledgehammer taken to them seemingly by one of our own - and while we were on the way up, too. We'll not know for a while yet who made which decisions, but this summer is a huge opportunity to right some of those wrongs.

I reserve the right to be disgusted at stupidity when it's enveloped in a red shirt. Football isn't just a game we play to win, it's an art and we (along with a handful of other top clubs) are its guardians. When those men step out, they're representing us and our values and they have to know we won't settle for it being vulgar or unintelligent. It grates me severely when I hear dichotomies made between playing beautifully and winning, particularly among our own. Our success is built on being an effective and beautiful machine that's well balanced and easy on the eye. I honestly don't think we'll ever know how to win any other way and I see no cause for concern in that. As well as the insistence on intelligence reflecting our principles, it's this stance which allows the moneymen to market us globally. Of course that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, but at the moment, we're not even as valuable a brand  as we should be because it's unclear what we represent in our style of play. I'm tired of hearing Barca references, but we hear them because it's shorthand for something (what's more irksome is that it's shorthand for our style). What's Liverpool shorthand for? What does it represent to the footballing world at the moment? Is our brand attractive to intelligent players right now?

As an aside, a key indicator for me in the stupidity levels at a given club are the qualities it seeks in its first choice goalkeeper. If he's not as valued for his distribution and ability on the ball as he is for his shot-stopping and aerial command, it's the first marker of a team set up to play stupidly. Fortunately, we've been able to rely on Pepe for many years in this regard and although I've noticed him hoofing far, far more this season than ever before, his detractors (see the QPR game thread) might want to think about that quality.
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2012, 10:54:28 pm »
It's funny how when Roy posts something that echoes other peoples concerns they have had for months, he doesn't get the regulars jumping down his throat calling him a cnt. Wonder why that is? Has twelfth man's excellent 'papering over the cracks' post been reopened (which of course brought him a sack of shit in criticism, for raising many of Roy's points before him)?
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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2012, 11:25:00 pm »
Quote
" A fact that surprises me (or does it?) is the very little amount of study dedicated to such an important subject. There are University departments for the mathematical complexities in the movements of Amazonian ants, or the medieval history of Perim island; but I have never heard of any Foundation or Board of Trustees supporting any studies of Stupidology..."

- Giancarlo Livraghi -

See below for further reading on this fascinating subject...

The Power Of Stupidity - Part 1 -

The Power Of Stupidity - Part 2 -

The Stupidity Of Power

Jim Welles - Stupidity Interview


 :o
YNWA

Offline Garcepticon

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2012, 11:30:17 pm »

Offline Red Crown

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2012, 11:57:38 pm »
Can I commend the author of the orignal post for a well thought out and structured argument with some fascinating examples and supporting evidence?

Offline alvaro

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2012, 05:42:25 am »
That is just a fantastic post, good job.

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2012, 08:50:28 am »
The Dawn of reality...  mind boggling
Just remembered our comments in October after the Derby match
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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2012, 09:21:04 am »
The Dawn of reality...  mind boggling
Just remembered our comments in October after the Derby match

It's funny you know - in my head I kind of exclude myself from the baying horde calling for a manager's head, but I see what you mean mate - it comes across as too critical. I did try and keep it open though - the idea being that building on where we are, it'd only take a few wee tweaks to screw the nut down - to close out games like that on Wednesday, you know?

I should maybe think a wee bit more before writing though. Fair play sir.

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2012, 10:09:47 am »
Carry on fuckin regardless mate.
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Offline No666

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2012, 01:18:42 pm »
Quote
Rafa was the arch meddler. He put players in a box and would never ever let their genius out. And every single player dared not step out of that box. They were fearful. This worked in so far as Rafa’s ideas worked. Beyond that - nothing. Rafa’s responsibility. Rafa’s successes. Rafa’s failures.

Peter, I remember Balague saying that the weak point in Rafa's plan for world domination was the fact that he had to completely overhaul his squad on a regular basis: bring in new players who bought into his view because the ones who had been with him for a while, by and large, grew jaded. The hunger for success was eroded by the tedium of instruction. (And of course when success went, the instruction seemed really pointless.) We saw the reality of that when he deconstructed that beautiful beast which was his last, great team. But if you come at it from the polar opposite - from Kenny's wish for independent intelligence on the pitch - how long does it take to eradicate stupidity? Longer than the patience of the rabid mob? And more pertinently (imo) can you eradicate stupidity? Because it seems to me that there's a baseline footballing IQ, and just as with cerebral IQ, you can improve the results by doing similar tests repeatedly, but you can't make Andy Carroll into Einstein. Or to put it another way: how many Rachmaninovs do you need in the team as compared to the piano's carriers - and is it simply a matter of getting the balance wrong this year?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 01:20:29 pm by No666 »

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2012, 02:29:08 pm »
Kenny surely gets more time, even with an impatient public, to try for the better balance though doesnt he? I mean they wont sack him. May well not renew his contract if results dont improve next season, but i for one would fucking be livid if he was sacked. We have seen a beautiful Dalglish side before. He was the one who added the brilliance, in barnes, Beardsley and Houghton. The piano carriers (and i know that thats disrespectful, because they were all quality) were already in place when he took over.

My real worry is that Kenny can see the genius that he is looking for, but wont be able to get it like he did in the Eighties.This is where Comoli has to earn his money.

Do we yet have a solid base? Jury is out. We have also seen, in my opinion a functional cold robotic Dlaglish side in Blackburn, That was one which he built from scratch, and he took him to be the biggest checkbook in the league in order to achieve it.

One can only hope that we can build on this platform that we have. I think we are better than the points tally that we have at this stage. Some 10-12 points better. If that were the reality then one would be saying progress. The fact that we arent smacks of Stupidity or a lack of brilliance in the squad. Patterns of play are becoming pleasing to watch, we do create chances we do hve a couple of Worldies, and we are by and large a good defensive unit. It needs to be strengthened withgenuine quality and it needs to click. If we get the first one in the summer then surely the clicking will occur. If it does happen it will seem like a major turnaround for some, but for those that have been patiently watching it wont come as a suprise.


Offline rafa4eva

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2012, 02:55:34 pm »
Peter, I remember Balague saying that the weak point in Rafa's plan for world domination was the fact that he had to completely overhaul his squad on a regular basis: bring in new players who bought into his view because the ones who had been with him for a while, by and large, grew jaded. The hunger for success was eroded by the tedium of instruction. (And of course when success went, the instruction seemed really pointless.) We saw the reality of that when he deconstructed that beautiful beast which was his last, great team. But if you come at it from the polar opposite - from Kenny's wish for independent intelligence on the pitch - how long does it take to eradicate stupidity? Longer than the patience of the rabid mob? And more pertinently (imo) can you eradicate stupidity? Because it seems to me that there's a baseline footballing IQ, and just as with cerebral IQ, you can improve the results by doing similar tests repeatedly, but you can't make Andy Carroll into Einstein. Or to put it another way: how many Rachmaninovs do you need in the team as compared to the piano's carriers - and is it simply a matter of getting the balance wrong this year?

From my perspective, it wasn't jaded, it was burn out which needed regular turn over of players....better quality replacements....it was a high performing team, strong work ethic, intelligent play... The amusing thing again is opinion and perception....I didn't think rafa boxed in players, I thought he demanded far more than most managers .... Work rate, tracking, position had to be there as a minimum with an expectation for real skill and talent to add value above that...

The football I remember was never regimental, unless lower skilled players or less able players were asked to play....Thats when we looked one dimensional.....Rotation was key, but not having same levels of players and demanding that level of performance would affect results and inevitably the performances...In hindsight again he was onto a loser when the yanks came in....

You mention deconstructing.... The team was ripped apart due to finance, lower quality players were risked or the risk was on realising potential....within the way rafa played in hindsight was never going to work ... And rafa wasnt going to change the system....

It's all hindsight though, remember sitting thinking towards the end of rafa that there seemed to be some kind of consensus that rafa had picked up our level and at the end was holding us and the team back....that consensus was swiftly kicked in the goolies when bum sniffer was brought in....

Great op royendho and follow on points by others...

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2012, 03:10:43 pm »
An excellent thread and, as usual, a thought-provoking opener by Royhendo.

The stand-out post for me is Peter McGurk's. I’m persuaded by it because I think stupid football is a product of poor technique and (especially) poor comprehension before it’s a product of poor psychology and poor character. Fear of failure is a terrible handicap in a player and for a team, but often that fear has a rational foundation. It’s usually the product of knowing you don’t quite have the skills and technique to compete rather than some mental blockage which prevents you from expressing yourself. It’s an excess of truth in other words rather than a lack of self-belief. 

It’s a pity that some of what Peter said in his first post has been misunderstood. He said ‘process does not dominate brilliance’ in football, not that process isn’t important. He also said that brilliance is a vital factor, not that it is the only factor.

Clearly it isn’t the only factor – and I’ve never heard anyone argue that it is. But the idea that brilliance can be a “liability in sport”, as someone said above, is surely wrong. It can be improperly harnessed and improperly understood but the team that wants to eliminate the brilliant player because he seems to be too erratic or egotistical is the equivalent of the mediocre company boss that feels threatened by singularity and hires people just like himself. If brilliance is a problem for the team blame the coach not the player. Asprilla was mentioned as a case in point to illustrate the 'liability' thesis. Well Newcastle have not again touched the heights that he helped take them to. They almost won the league with him in their attack. They fairly destroyed Barcelona at St James’s (and didn’t Asprilla score a hat-trick?). Hopefully one day someone won’t be saying about Suarez – ‘Brilliant player but he didn’t do Liverpool any favours’.

Roy, I’m always wary of applying military models to sport. They occupy such radically different orbits. Army’s don’t tolerate mavericks. I can't imagine, for example, a martial equivalent of Messi or Ibrahimovic - or Suarez for that matter. One suspects too that in real life the army is not as good as it claims to be at rooting out the inadequate soldier or the man who can't 'cut it' under pressure. ‘Friendly fire’, after all, has become a house-hold word in recent times. One thinks back, also, to that famous United States survey after the Korean War which revealed the astonishing statistic that over 50% of the infantry failed to shoot their guns during a fire-fight. That sounds like a failure of nerve of Liverpool FC proportions!

It might be the case that military drills work a good deal better in rugby union of course. That game is far less fluid and changeable than football. It's not quite on the Grid-Iron end of the spectrum where coaches call the shots throughout the game but in terms of improvisation it seems to have more in common with its American cousin than it has with the round-ball game. In any case didn't English rugby union leap ahead by employing rugby league coaches like Joe Lydon - pretty much as Welsh rugby union is doing now by using the know-how of Wigan RLFC's Shaun Edwards? I know it's less sexy for Woodward to admit he took his cues from Puddleforth and Grimsdyke than the Marine Corps, but that's essentially what happened isn't it?

And Woodward's a self-promoting arse. Give me Harry Redknapp any day. (You had to feel for Harry being put under the eye of that egg-chasing public schoolboy at Southampton. What happened to Redknapp by the way?)

The stuff on Bellamy was very interesting, but I think our stupidity is technical still, not attitudinal. It’s a deficit of knowledge (ie football knowledge) rather than a mental block or a psychological disorder. I'm always a bit suspicious of those who think old Liverpool had ice in their veins too. I remember reading one of the 1980s players - Hansen I think - describing how some of the senior pros always had their pre-match puke before running out and facing the Kop. This wasn't bulimia I don't think. It wasn't even the old booze culture. It was tension of an extraordinary kind. Those blokes were nervous. 

If we're 'stupid' now I'd suspect it's because we don't have enough players who are truly able to describe what they're trying to do. We often talk about footballers learning the 'how', but I sometimes wonder whether in Britain there are enough home-grown players who also know about the 'why'. You see this with young players at all levels I think. Copying the technical skills of great footballers - as so many of the youtube generation now do - often shows you the ‘how’ but leaves the ‘why’ unanswered. It’s the reason you get technically able kids who know virtually nothing about WHEN to apply a particular skill. It can lead to a fetishising of technique while leaving a deplorable appreciation of what destructive team play involves.

Hank’s post was good on Michels and that coach's premium on a player's ‘ability to think for himself'. That ability comes, of course, from understanding the 'why' as well as the 'how'. When I look at Liverpool now I'm sometimes struck by how technically good most of our players are, but how poor their movement is - both when we have the ball and don't have it. Surely that's a problem with the 'why'. That's to say many of our players still don't seem to know why they are meant to be moving - and therefore don't know when to move or where to move to for maximum effect.

When a team enjoys continuous possession for more 20 seconds it should begin to see the opposition weaken and options open all over the pitch. I never feel this is going to happen when we enjoy that kind of ball. This must have something to do with the 'why' rather than the 'how'. Do we really have enough players who understand what the purpose of retaining possession is? To put it crudely it's to make each successive pass more damaging to the opponent. The pressure is meant to build and a bad pass - even to feet - is one that allows an opponent to regain its shape. I look at Spearing sometimes - and I'm not picking on him especially - and wonder if he's really aware of what a man in his position is trying to accomplish. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

royhendo

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royhendo

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Re: Stupid Football
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2012, 03:43:25 pm »
I should emphasise that for me at least, a clear head and an ability to rejig your setup during a game is something that compliments brilliance. You only need to look at Simon Kuper's article on Barca's approach for a wee suggestion on that front. The little routines described are exactly the kind of things that England coaching setup ended up with.

Here it's: http://www.miostadium.com/opinions/simon-kuper/barcelonas-secret-soccer-success

For me, some of the things that article describes are about managing out stupid football. Don't go for the direct ball when you win the ball back unless you're in the final third. If you don't win the ball back within 5 seconds, retreat and form a barrier as a unit. It's not a million miles from 'ruck, do your crossbar, touchline, corners check' - both cases are about knowing where your team mates are, you know?

On the army front - I'd guess that there's just as much brilliance in that environment as there is in any walk of life mate, no?

But the broad point is more to do with scouting and selection - don't pick the dunderheads, and don't buy the dunderheads. That may well be down to technique, but it isn't always down to those limitations. You wish they all thought like Bellamy at the minute.

I'm in no way suggesting Woodward is some genius or anything like that - it's just a very thought provoking book about an incredible side for me. It acknowledges the contribution of Rugby League coaching throughout, and about the benefits of recruiting players who were up for switching codes (albeit it didn't always work out for them). They also had an incredible group of players who'd done amazing things in the game in their own right.

Anyway, beyond that I think we're mostly on the same page. A clear head's a good thing in my book, and some players are benefiting from people like Peters helping them achieve one.