Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 137964 times)

Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2017, 02:49:46 pm »
No offence mate, but it seems this advise had led to the death of people.

Whatever has happened, and whatever is the circumstances, there needs to be serious questions if it transpires that there were no sprinklers in the block.

That's just utterly incompetent on a level not seen before if that's true.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2017, 03:23:42 pm »
Interesting stuff on guardian website.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/14/grenfell-tower-major-fire-london-apartment-block-white-city-latimer-road#5941358ce4b014a733d62214

There is a reason that the fire brigade have advised people all around the world to stay put in reinforced concrete buildings since the 60's and it's simple . It works.  It also prevents hundreds of people becoming unnecessary victims by being overcome by smoke, endangering themselves, causing panics and injuries, preventing those fighting the fire from putting the fire out and needing crews to search every flat in a building.

Recently, there have been problems, we are now seeing timber construction multi storey buildings over 4 floors. Which rely on fire engineering to protect them, If a fire gets out of control in such a building, there is a possibility that it burns the fabric of the building. Wood no matter how it's treated isn't concrete. That has muddied the waters on 'staying put' as how many will know how their flats are constructed

Last nights fire has seen fire spread that is outside anything we've seen. I can't emphasise how unusual it is. I don't know why it has happened but the way it was burnt looked like the Dubai fire where the cladding spread the fire very quickly and jumped floors. the only time fire jumps floor in concrete buildings is  either wind assisted or an incredibly developed fire and that would take along time to happen. There is therefore something happening that is totally different to normal fire behaviour.


Earlier on this mornining there was clearly a visible diagonal line of fire, prettymuch from the top to the bottom of the entire building. To anyone who sees it, it gives every appearance of the fire racing up the outside of the cladding of the building - but we must wait and see. This freakish spread of the fire seems to have had disastrous consequences for the stay-put response.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2017, 03:38:02 pm »
Whatever has happened, and whatever is the circumstances, there needs to be serious questions if it transpires that there were no sprinklers in the block.

That's just utterly incompetent on a level not seen before if that's true.
I fear the death toll will rise considerably and first most this is a human tragedy. But you are right there will be serious questions how this has arisen and what we need to do prevent it happening again. There will be forensic reports into what has happened not just by the Fire Service but by the FBU they'll leave no stone unturned.

Fire Service legislation has historically come about after such tragedies, cynics say after the horse has bolted but generally people aren't interested in such things until they go wrong. Recently we have seen massive changes in fire safety, with deregulation, a move away from fire services 'policing' fire safety and a rise in self fire safety risk assesments. I'm sure all these things will provide the background to the reports as will massive cuts to the fire service that we have constantly warned about but as of now, they haven't put the fire out and they will have to recover bodies and damp down and while some very interesting things are being brought up in the media there is also plenty of blind alleys and speculation
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2017, 03:42:44 pm »
Certainly in every building I worked on the assembley point Is the corner stone of the fire plan.

How many 20+ storey buildings with one fire escape and no trained fire marshals on site have you worked in?

Residential buildings are a completely different situation compared to workplaces.

Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2017, 03:48:00 pm »
Earlier on this mornining there was clearly a visible diagonal line of fire, prettymuch from the top to the bottom of the entire building. To anyone who sees it, it gives every appearance of the fire racing up the outside of the cladding of the building - but we must wait and see. This freakish spread of the fire seems to have had disastrous consequences for the stay-put response.
Without knowing what happened that's what my first thoughts were. I've heard different things about the stay put policy, which we normally do by going above the fire and reassuring people. I've heard reports that in this case firefighters got as high as the 20th floor and were telling people to evacuate rather than stay put because of the situation. Its only stay put if your not involved in the fire and with the unbelievably quick spread nearly every floor is involved in fire and you'd want to evacuate as many as you could rather than telling people to stay put but not being there I don't know what happened.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2017, 03:49:25 pm »
How many 20+ storey buildings with one fire escape and no trained fire marshals on site have you worked in?

Residential buildings are a completely different situation compared to workplaces.

And workplaces have regular fire drills - normally when it's pissing down.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2017, 03:49:30 pm »
Without knowing what happened that's what my first thoughts were. I've heard different things about the stay put policy, which we normally do by going above the fire and reassuring people. I've heard reports that in this case firefighters got as high as the 20th floor and were telling people to evacuate rather than stay put because of the situation. Its only stay put if your not involved in the fire and with the unbelievably quick spread nearly every floor is involved in fire and you'd want to evacuate as many as you could rather than telling people to stay put but not being there I don't know what happened.

Am I right in assuming that you work for the fire brigade or something similar?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2017, 03:52:49 pm »
Whatever has happened, and whatever is the circumstances, there needs to be serious questions if it transpires that there were no sprinklers in the block.

That's just utterly incompetent on a level not seen before if that's true.

No it isn't. Please can people stop making wild assertions that aren't based on a professional understanding of construction and the Building Regulations.
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Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2017, 04:15:07 pm »
No it isn't. Please can people stop making wild assertions that aren't based on a professional understanding of construction and the Building Regulations.

Sorry AX,

I work as a underwriter for a insurance company - when we are trying to get cover for our customers, sprinklers, fire alarms are amongst the particular questions we have to ask customers to calculate risk, especially for someone living in a tower block.

If there wasn't basic safety features then that is an enormous risk.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:19:16 pm by Commie Bobbie »
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2017, 04:22:53 pm »
Whatever has happened, and whatever is the circumstances, there needs to be serious questions if it transpires that there were no sprinklers in the block.

That's just utterly incompetent on a level not seen before if that's true.

I'm a Fire Marshall at work, we are in a 15 storey office building, we occupy floors 6, 10, 11 and 14, that was built in the 60's, has over 1,000 people in it and has been risk assessed - we don't have a sprinkler system as one was never fitted and there is no legal requirement to retro fit them, sprinklers are only required in new builds that exceed 30m in height.

What has happened in this building is awful for those involved, as a resident you'd never expect a fire to engulf the building like this.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #131 on: June 14, 2017, 04:35:03 pm »
Sorry AX,

I work as a underwriter for a insurance company - when we are trying to get cover for our customers, sprinklers, fire alarms are amongst the particular questions we have to ask customers to calculate risk, especially for someone living in a tower block.

If there wasn't basic safety features then that is an enormous risk.

That's fair comment from an insurance point of view but from our point of view as designers there are other ways of making a building safe without the installation of sprinklers, especially when upgrading an existing building. Sprinklers aren't a basic requirement. Proper design of the building for the prevention of the spread of fire and well designed means of escape come first.

All I've been trying to say is that none of us know the reason for this fire spreading so quickly and it doesn't help the friends and relatives of those who died to have wild assertions and speculation spread around the internet.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:37:17 pm by Alan_X »
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #132 on: June 14, 2017, 04:50:10 pm »
Surely the way to react to a fire depends on the building? That is why there should be building inductions and emergency plans. Whether to stay or to go depends on which parts of the building are connected, which parts can be isolated, etc.

In our work the stairwells are designed to offer 30min protection, so the advice is to go there, but if that wasn't the case, and for example each flat had extra fire doors, then it would be better to stay put.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #133 on: June 14, 2017, 05:00:53 pm »
Surely the way to react to a fire depends on the building? That is why there should be building inductions and emergency plans. Whether to stay or to go depends on which parts of the building are connected, which parts can be isolated, etc.

In our work the stairwells are designed to offer 30min protection, so the advice is to go there, but if that wasn't the case, and for example each flat had extra fire doors, then it would be better to stay put.

It's a residential building not an office. You can't have an induction for everyone visiting an apartment and you have to account for subletting. And one of the problems with flats (and offices) is that people prop internal fire doors open.
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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #134 on: June 14, 2017, 05:06:38 pm »
I notice that the press and authorities are continually repeating the number of people being treated across six hospitals, but what's probably more telling, is nobody is mentioning the amount of people that are unaccounted for.

I suspect that the number of fatalities is going to be horrific.  :(


Edit.  Now 12 confirmed dead.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2017, 05:06:55 pm »
Surely the way to react to a fire depends on the building? That is why there should be building inductions and emergency plans. Whether to stay or to go depends on which parts of the building are connected, which parts can be isolated, etc.

In our work the stairwells are designed to offer 30min protection, so the advice is to go there, but if that wasn't the case, and for example each flat had extra fire doors, then it would be better to stay put.

One of the residents interviewed on the BBC earlier said that there were 'Stay Put' stickers everywhere - in the lifts, stairwells, communal doors, etc.

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2017, 05:29:07 pm »
Reports of between 400-600 residents in the building.

Of course not all of them will have been there at the time of the fire, but I have a bad feeling the total number of fatalities by the end is going to be bone-rattling.

Absolutely heart-breaking this. :'(

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2017, 05:29:55 pm »
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/people-sharing-lies-hero-grenfell-10622172

This is annoying. People making up and spreading malicious shite that's so nonsensical and passing it for fact.  The Firefighters going in their multiple times will be working in unimaginable heat with their core body temp rising to the point where they will be risking temporary mental and physical impairment, they'll  have been in immense physical danger some of them making it as high as the 20th floor to get people out, in an inferno and people making up shit on the internet like they took 2 hours to arrive.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2017, 05:30:34 pm »
Earlier on this mornining there was clearly a visible diagonal line of fire, prettymuch from the top to the bottom of the entire building. To anyone who sees it, it gives every appearance of the fire racing up the outside of the cladding of the building - but we must wait and see. This freakish spread of the fire seems to have had disastrous consequences for the stay-put response.

Any outside cladding should've been rockwool,if it wasn't then it is a fuck up on all levels (no pun intended).Also you are supposed to be able to let a fire burn out in any apartment without it spreading & the fire service should've tested that aspect before issuing the safety certificate.

I just hope that the death toll isn't as high as many fear.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2017, 05:38:17 pm »
Any outside cladding should've been rockwool,if it wasn't then it is a fuck up on all levels (no pun intended).Also you are supposed to be able to let a fire burn out in any apartment without it spreading & the fire service should've tested that aspect before issuing the safety certificate.

I just hope that the death toll isn't as high as many fear.

What do you mean? If it was cosmetic rainscreen cladding why would it need Rockwool? And why Rockwool and not some other make of insulation? How would the fire service have tested it? Set fire to an apartment?
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2017, 05:39:53 pm »
Any outside cladding should've been rockwool,if it wasn't then it is a fuck up on all levels (no pun intended).Also you are supposed to be able to let a fire burn out in any apartment without it spreading & the fire service should've tested that aspect before issuing the safety certificate.

I just hope that the death toll isn't as high as many fear.
I know you're not being malicious but you are wrong. The fire brigade wouldn't issue a safety certificate. Fire safety is the building owners responsibility they have to do the risk assessment. The Government changed the legislation.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2017, 05:45:48 pm »
It's a residential building not an office. You can't have an induction for everyone visiting an apartment and you have to account for subletting. And one of the problems with flats (and offices) is that people prop internal fire doors open.

My point was that whether to stay put or not depends on the building structure, and the residents should have had some sort of information on what is appropriate for that specific building. The generic discussion is a bit meaningless.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2017, 05:47:29 pm »
What do you mean? If it was cosmetic rainscreen cladding why would it need Rockwool? And why Rockwool and not some other make of insulation? How would the fire service have tested it? Set fire to an apartment?

If it was just cosmetic then the claddinbg used would or should've been fire tested.I have had three jobs to date where we built a box just so that the fire service could come along and set it on fire.If the cladding was not partly to blame then the block was in itself unsafe and the original advice for residence to stay put was flawed because that is given on the understanding that each dwelling is supposed to be able to burn out without spreading.

I have also put rockwool cladding onto the ouside of a concrete extension at The Royal in Sunderland and that was over 15yrs ago and it was only 5 or 6 stories high.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #143 on: June 14, 2017, 05:48:30 pm »
My point was that whether to stay put or not depends on the building structure, and the residents should have had some sort of information on what is appropriate for that specific building. The generic discussion is a bit meaningless.

They did have specific information on what to do.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #144 on: June 14, 2017, 05:51:19 pm »
If it was just cosmetic then the claddinbg used would or should've been fire tested.I have had three jobs to date where we built a box just so that the fire service could come along and set it on fire.If the cladding was not partly to blame then the block was in itself unsafe and the original advice for residence to stay put was flawed because that is given on the understanding that each dwelling is supposed to be able to burn out without spreading.

I have also put rockwool cladding onto the ouside of a concrete extension at The Royal in Sunderland and that was over 15yrs ago and it was only 5 or 6 stories high.

Read the Probyn Myers report that someone else linked to. The point is that the standard testing you mention would not necessarily show how the cladding would perform in situ.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #145 on: June 14, 2017, 06:08:18 pm »
I read that the cladding was an Aluminium Composite Material. I've specified ACM cladding in the past and it's tested and approved as a material. The best known manufacturer is Alucobond who do a fire retardant version for high risk installations. It will be interesting to see what system and which manufacturer they actually used. A non-FR substitute could create the effect we saw last night and this morning.

This is just an observation and we need to wait for the outcome of the investigations.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #146 on: June 14, 2017, 06:16:30 pm »
I read that the cladding was an Aluminium Composite Material. I've specified ACM cladding in the past and it's tested and approved as a material. The best known manufacturer is Alucobond who do a fire retardant version for high risk installations. It will be interesting to see what system and which manufacturer they actually used. A non-FR substitute could create the effect we saw last night and this morning.

This is just an observation and we need to wait for the outcome of the investigations.
What is the recommended way of fixing this stuff to the building Al. Is it manufactured in such a way that it can only be affixed in a specific way, or are there various ways of doing it. It appears that some kind of insulation was behind it, or am I misinterpreting what I see on the TV. If there was any kind of void between it and the building, would that have posed a significant risk in this situation?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 06:21:08 pm by Dr. Beaker »
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2017, 06:24:05 pm »
Read the Probyn Myers report that someone else linked to. The point is that the standard testing you mention would not necessarily show how the cladding would perform in situ.

Quote
In the UK, influence from insurers and technical development within the composite panel industry has led to cores of polymer-cored external cladding panels changing from PUR to PIR to phenolic foam, decreasing the fire hazard.

The fire performance of external cladding panels is not always understood, even by architects and specifiers, and the issues are not straightforward.  The architect / specifier may have difficulty interpreting a composite panel manufacturer’s specification.

That is shocking to read,it is their job to know the materials that they are using inside and out imo,that is obviously not the case and is something that needs changing.

He also pointed out that rockwool is non-combustible but (imo) it is being overlooked due to cost.After reading on much of it makes me feel physically sick,regulations influenced by greed and not safety in my opionion.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #148 on: June 14, 2017, 06:28:10 pm »
I read that the cladding was an Aluminium Composite Material. I've specified ACM cladding in the past and it's tested and approved as a material. The best known manufacturer is Alucobond who do a fire retardant version for high risk installations. It will be interesting to see what system and which manufacturer they actually used. A non-FR substitute could create the effect we saw last night and this morning.

This is just an observation and we need to wait for the outcome of the investigations.

I agree & then if need be change to regs and retrofit any buildings than need retrofitting.

To hell with the cost.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #149 on: June 14, 2017, 06:29:49 pm »
Think that this will bring about big changes. Far too early to say what but I can see a move to tighten up on regulations, the past few years have seen a political move for increasing deregulation. There are already big moves within the fire community to retrofit sprinklers because they are very effective and effect of cladding and how its fitted will looks like it will be examined to find out why this has happened
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #150 on: June 14, 2017, 06:46:15 pm »
What is the recommended way of fixing this stuff to the building Al. Is it manufactured in such a way that it can only be affixed in a specific way, or are there various ways of doing it. It appears that some kind of insulation was behind it, or am I misinterpreting what I see on the TV. If there was any kind of void between it and the building, would that have posed a significant risk in this situation?

If it's a rainscreen then there's a gap between the cladding and the existing wall in a refurb. Rain screen is exactly what it says - it just keeps the rain off protecting insulation and vapour barriers behind. There are a whole range of types and details. It's used in new build  - we installed a terracotta rainscreen on a new build in London recently - and also as a way to cosmetically improve the appearance of tired looking old buildings.

The risk in a residential building is that a fire in one apartment can get into the underside of the cladding, travel up behind and then flash over into the floor above. Flashover happens when the heat of the fire raises the temperature on the glass to a level that will ignite the contents of the room behind - if the window breaks under the heat it happens quicker.

All speculation of course but I can see how it's possible if it was assumed the existing building was going to provide the fire retardency between floors and any chimney effect wasn't taken into account.

The problem the construction industry always faces is that we don't have the luxury of product or car manufacturers to test complete buildings. We test individual products, mockups and for small repeated buildings we even set light to a complete building.  There may have been negligence but it's also possible that everyone involved in the cladding (manufacturer, specifier, installer, Building Control etc) acted with due care and still created an installation that through a particular set of circumstances created the horror at Grenfell Tower. If anyone was negligent they need to be prosecuted.

It's also possible that the cladding had nothing to do with it and there was some other factor.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #151 on: June 14, 2017, 06:52:17 pm »
Think that this will bring about big changes. Far too early to say what but I can see a move to tighten up on regulations, the past few years have seen a political move for increasing deregulation. There are already big moves within the fire community to retrofit sprinklers because they are very effective and effect of cladding and how its fitted will looks like it will be examined to find out why this has happened

Have you come across retrofitted sprinkler systems in big residential buildings? We don't do a lot of residential work.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2017, 07:01:25 pm »
Have you come across retrofitted sprinkler systems in big residential buildings? We don't do a lot of residential work.
I've seen them retrofitted in residential properties and houses of multi occupation, our ex chief was big on them and we took part in a few tests where we fitted them in 'derelicts' and set them on fire and they are surprisingly effective. http://www.bafsa.org.uk/sprinkler-information/domestic-residential-sprinklers.php
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2017, 07:11:41 pm »
I think thats a disgrace that sky news broadcast some periscope footage from people stuck near the top of the building not knowing if they survived or not who gave them permission to show it.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2017, 07:17:54 pm »
I've seen them retrofitted in residential properties and houses of multi occupation, our ex chief was big on them and we took part in a few tests where we fitted them in 'derelicts' and set them on fire and they are surprisingly effective. http://www.bafsa.org.uk/sprinkler-information/domestic-residential-sprinklers.php

Decent summary that. Interesting that Alan has experience, albeit not in residential, and he didn't know of their effectiveness. On balance though, as landlords of high-rise residential properties, they owed a greater duty of care to tenants. Looks pretty damning considering major renovations were carried out recently.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2017, 07:24:25 pm »
The refurb company have reissued their statement and the new copy omits a statement where it states the renovation meant the building met fire regulation standards.

Head on block time.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #156 on: June 14, 2017, 07:52:32 pm »
Heard of a HuffPost article reporting the Biffers are harassing Muslims from the local mosque who are trying to help residents.  New fucking low for that lot.  :wanker :no
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #157 on: June 14, 2017, 07:54:57 pm »
Can one of the more technically gifted guys embed this video for me please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQLIlIetDM

This is a fire in a residential tower block in France in 2009, the description says the cladding was made from Polystyrene, regardless or not if thats true, it is clearly flammable.

The speed in which this fire spreads upwards is horrendous and clearly very similar to what happened in London.
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #158 on: June 14, 2017, 07:55:25 pm »
The refurb company have reissued their statement and the new copy omits a statement where it states the renovation meant the building met fire regulation standards.

Head on block time.

Yeah I just read that on their site.

This is what they said to the Indi

Quote
Construction firm Rydon, which carried out a £8.6m refurbishment of the exterior of Grenfell Tower last year, installing cladding and new windows, said its work “met all required building control, fire regulation, and health and safety standards.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-fire-cause-improve-kensington-block-flats-appearance-blaze-24-storey-west-a7789951.html


Quote
Rydon Press Statement – Grenfell Tower
14th June 2017

“We were shocked to hear of the devastating fire at Grenfell Tower and our immediate thoughts are with those that have been affected by the incident, their families, relatives and friends.

Rydon completed a partial refurbishment of the building in the summer of 2016 for Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation on behalf of the Council.  The project met all required building regulations and handover took place when the completion notice was issued by the Department of Building Control, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea.  We are working with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their enquiries into the causes of this fire.”

Robert Bond, CEO, Rydon Group.
http://www.rydon.co.uk/
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Re: Huge inferno at West London tower block
« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2017, 07:57:18 pm »
Is it possible that the fire got behind the cladding?  If there was a gap could it have funnelled the flames through a narrow airspace?  What if the cladding was only fireproof on one side?
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