Topic: The history of the Holocaust

[DannyD]

Dan, really,mate, people were desperate to survive, just because some became Kapos doesn't mean there was a big zionist conspiracy, it just means they were scared and desperate. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like, I mean, I read about it, but the feelings of the people in the camps and ghettos are way beyond any that I can imagine (Thanks to people of my grandad's generation putting a stop to it all).

It wasn't about Kapos was it Spence? To reduce that is another method to reduce what happened. It was about the leadership on Europe and abroad and their policy of Jews to Palestine.

I am not having a go at anyone who took a decision to do it their way, just to get through it would have been understandable. The argument is against those who claim leaders of the Judebrats had this moral dilemma that they had to wrestle with. The dilemma they faced was how do I organise these people to defend themselves, if I can’t do that I have to stand down to allow others who will do it to become leaders. The Judenrat leadership didn’t juts stand back from the fight, they actively created the impression that all was fine, in doing so they collaborated with The Nazis.

The Kasztner case was only unique in the fact it became prominent due to the libel case, There were far worse cases of collaboration. If Ben Gurion and the Zionist leadership in Israel had left Kasztner to his justified fate that would have been an end to it, By The State itself defending him they brought it on themselves to clear all the actions of the Judenrats.

The leadership outside of Europe was guilty of blocking attempts to save Jews and distribute them over the world. It was a case of using the Holocaust to populate Palestine with displaced Jews from Europe. I have given examples of how that policy was adopted and carried out. They sought to bully, to shame the British to open the gates to Palestine to all Jews, something it could not do. But they were not unaware of the actions of Zionism around the world, is it conceivable that even the racist members of the British Government at the time could stand by and block hundreds of thousands of refugees if that was their only hope? I argue the Brits knew what the Zionists were up to and with the co-operation of Roosevelt blocked their scheme.

If Palestine was the only solution the Zionists leadership would have had a case. There was illegal transfers to Palestine mostly through the Revisionists who took anybody, not selected and chosen Prominents as the others did, but it is clear there would have been hundreds of thousands more survivors, if the leadership had worked with those who were fighting to organise refugee appeals.  Ben Hercht posted an advert in the New York papers telling the world the Rumanian government was prepared to “sell Jews” for dollars. The leadership of the American Jews rushed to rubbish his claim in spite of the US officials conforming that was the case. They then claimed to take control of the campaign but just sat on it and blamed the US State Department for its failure.

In the book Holocaust Victims Speak Out M Shonfield  provides a Photostat of an official protocol of the Swedish Parliament proving the Zionists obstructed the rescue of Jews to Sweden.

There is so much evidence Zionism has had to build an alternative history to counter the allegations of corruption and collaboration.

[DannyD]

I have answered the charge of being anti Jew and blaming Jews for their own extermination above, and many times on RAWK. This bankrupt argument looks to be the last desperate hook the apologists have to hang their ragged defence on.

For those new to the thread go through the posts, decide who dismisses the Jews as a fighting force and who claims they have a record equal to none in taking up a fight.

 
Where Judenrats existed at least two thirds, by Ardent’s figures, were dominated by Zionists. Don’t get mistaken for the old Jewish Councils that existed before the war. The Nazis set the Judenrats  up and  the Nazis knew who they could deal with.

Why would a Nazi committee attempt to become a resistance movement, why not just have a resistance movement? Why not just lead the Jewish people in revolt, that was the question  State Prosecutor Gideon Hausner never asked the leaders of the Jews in Europe during the Eichmann trial, but pointed his finger at the survivors and demanded an answer from them..

All the leaders in the Judenrats, to a different degree, complied with the Nazis demands some went further than asked. Others as Hilberg says took their duties with zeal and even wore boots similar to their masters.

Yorky really creases me up, he argues Arendts book was written 45 years ago (forgetting the revised 1965 edition, does this a lot Yorky does) and so is defunct, yet Hilberg’s trilogy was written 2 years before but is “the bible” for all Holocaust studies. Arendt used a lot of Hilberg in her revised edition and if Yorky hasn’t read it how can he tell us it is not only “bad history” but not history at all. “It doesn’t fit in with my line so its rubbish”


Yorky is right hundreds of historians have sifted through documents, not all with truth and justice in mind. Once the first bead of sweat dripped from Kasztners forehead in Jerusalem’s District Court the Zionist world has gone into overdrive to re-write The Zionist history. The Holocaust Industry, has gone through every book that put Zionism in poor light and through its agencies has banned defiled and abused the authors, those from its own stable even if it is proven to be a fake, is lauded as a great work. Writers who give an honest point of view that is not cleared by Yad Vashem are classed as traitors, loonies, or the good old anti Semite.


USSR (that was its name then son) and Poland were dominated from The Reich, there was no quisling government and no national civil authority but there were Judenrats, Yorky should get out his old Hilberg in the 3rd volume the notes at the rear have a list on Judenrats that runs half the page amongst them are USSR and Poland. They cite how and what formation the Judenrats took in both these countries.


Ben Hecht was a right Wing Zionist but hy!!! when mad dogs fight there is always lots of blood and fur thrown about. “Hecht doesn’t produce a single document” except reams and reams from the court archives of the libel case in Israel.
The judgement itself was based on reams and reams of documents from 1941-45, including Kasztner’s perjured affidavit clearing SS General Kurt Becher of war crimes. His notes at the rear of the book are extensive and clear.

I am certain that any mistake or attempt to lie would have been met with his own court room appearance.

[Mafioso]

This is from the Palestinians Break Gaza Siege thread:

Thank You for proving my point above in such a concise manner.

There is no correlation between the two topics. Apart from the fact that the Zionists used the first(holocaust) as a lame excuse for the second (brutal regime). Even if it did happen, then the first still does not justify the second. Hinesy your full of it. You have been made to think in a linear and brainwashed way by the media. Not believing in the holocaust has nothing to do with anti-semetism or anything else. It is a legitimate academic study, and as David Irving pointed out; there is no scientific evidence that the evil nazis killed millions of people. They were too busy having a wear. Nobody denies it happened. Just the extent of it.

[DannyD]

There is no correlation between the two topics. Apart from the fact that the Zionists used the first(holocaust) as a lame excuse for the second (brutal regime). Even if it did happen, then the first still does not justify the second. Hinesy your full of it. You have been made to think in a linear and brainwashed way by the media. Not believing in the holocaust has nothing to do with anti-semetism or anything else. It is a legitimate academic study, and as David Irving pointed out; there is no scientific evidence that the evil nazis killed millions of people. They were too busy having a wear. Nobody denies it happened. Just the extent of it.

Irvine goes a lot further though doesn't he.? I agree with you that a proper investigation of the Holocaust has been clouded by the Zionist response to any questions that don't fit into their re write.  Evidence from Auschwitz taken from an affidavit by Rudolph Vrba for the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem, it was never used,, the total for that one camp alone was 2.5 million. This was based on his own records and after he escaped a Phillip Muller who worked in the gas chambers and knew through his “work” how many each day.

The argument of Irvine over numbers is grotesque Hilberg put the number at 5m ( he paid for this by having his book banned from Israel) and if the numbers given to the Swiss Banks, based on the number of survivors, from those claiming compensation it would have been far less. Norman Finkelsteins mother, a survivor herself was said to ask  if all these “ survivors” are claiming compensation for being in the camps “who did Hitler kill”

The real questions surrounding The Holocaust is not about numbers, it is how Hitler came to power, who backed him, who kept the deaths secret, and why has the Israeli ruling clique, since the 60s, organised a re-write of the history of The Holocaust, allowing reactionaries such as Irvine twisted credibility when the truth comes out. What was the facts behind the claims that Roosevelt’s attempts to bring refugees to the USA were thwarted by organised Zionists both in America and Palestine.

[DannyD]

Maybe now it is possible to move on in this thread, and the apologists to give up their desperate attempt at defending the indefensible. Important aspects of The Nazis rise to power  helps us understand more those leaders who did nothing or formed the basis of The Nazi destruction of the mass workers movement in Germany.   

The leaders of the Judenrats were drawn from the same social strata, the middle class, both Jew and Gentile that worked with the Fascists against the workers. Many of the intellectuals from both groups supported the workers fight, but for most the order of the day was to join the counter revolution against the workers revolution.

Hitler’s popularity was based on the middle class fear of the working class and a coming revolution. The collapse of the Weimar Republic and the economic crisis that had made many bankrupt and destitute blinded them to the fact that without the massed workers organisations, the Jews were facing extinction and the German population as a whole would be subject to extreme repression. If you did not fit into any acceptable category designed by The Nazis State you were marked for either death through forced labour or going to the gas chambers.

Before any implementation of the “Jewish Problem” could be enacted the removal of the real opposition had to be complete. When Pastor Martin Niemoller wrote his verse listing those The Nazis came for, he was not just giving a list in historical order. He was making the point that before the others could be dealt with, the Fascists had to deal with the Communists first. Include the Socialists, German Jewish Bundists and Trade Unionists in Niemoller’s first category. They were the only opposition to Hitler, the lives of tens of millions of human beings throughout Europe rested on the working class being victorious, sadly that was not the case, but that has to be looked at closely to understand German politics that lead to The Holocaust.

There is a view today that nobody foresaw Hitler’s rise to power. That Trotsky had warned the German working class against not just Hitler but the treachery of Stalin and the reformist leaders of the SPD is ignored of course. He appealed to the workers to ignore the chauvinist policies of the German socialist Party (SDP) and the ultra left policies of the Stalin dominated German Communist Party (KPD) and unite forces to defeat Hitler. Had the SPD allied themselves with the KPD, as Trotsky had called for Hitler would never have come to power, in the quagmire of German politics in that period, nothing is more certain. “March separately – Fight together” was the slogan the small minority group The Left Opposition put before the members of these massive parties. His works on Germany during the period of 1930 -1940 are a must for anyone serious about the history of Germany. http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/index.htm

The Left Opposition was formed from members of the Communist International that came together around Leon Trotsky who had opposed Stalin during his fight for the leadership of the Soviet Union. The Stalinist leadership tied the German party to a sectarian policy of naming the SDP as Social Fascists, “the left wing of Fascism” and at one point orders the KPD tovote with The Nazis against the SDP in the Reichstag.

Stalin made speech after speech in which he declared there was nothing different between The Nazis and The Socialist Democrats. The Commintern set up by Lenin to unite the international working class was used to further divide the movement to fall in line with his policy of Socialism in One Country. In short he was prepared to throw the German workers to the wolves for an agreement with anyone that protected what was rapidly becoming a deformed workers state in the USSR.

That they were divided by their respective leaders was the root cause of Hitler’s success is not in doubt. Nothing to do with his oratory skills or his organisation ability, or the recent reactionary ideas supporting  Daniel Goldhanger’s claim that all Germans are basic anti Semites, it is in their genes. The idea that Hitler’s claim to power was a certainty is not born out by historical facts.

The politics of Germany were divided almost down the centre. In the election of November 1932, the vote of the Nazis fell dramatically by 2 million. Their total vote was 11.73 million (33.1 percent). The SPD vote fell to 7.24 million (20.4 percent), while that of the KPD rose to 5.98 million (16.9 percent). The combined vote of the two socialist parties was now a half million more than that of the fascists. In percentage terms, the combined SPD-KPD vote was 37.3 percent. But the electoral vote shows nothing compared to the actual power, the social force of the workers movement. Trotsky put it clearly in 1931.
 
"On the scales of election statistics, one thousand Fascist votes weigh as much as a thousand Communist votes. But on the scales of the revolutionary struggle, a thousand workers in one big factory represent a force a hundred times greater than a thousand petty officials, clerks, their wives and their mothers-in-law. The great bulk of the Fascists consists of human dust." - Leon Trotsky, Germany 1931-32 (London: New Park Publications, 1970), p. 19.

Trotsky makes it clear Hitler had no chance against a united working class movement, armed with a decisive leadership intent on defeating his Nationalistic gangsters and lumpen racists.

David North of the Socialist Equity Party in the USA gave a lecture against the reactionary work of  Daniel Goldhanger at Michigan State university in April 1997.

The  lecture was brought out in pamphlet form and is on line here. North deals decisively with Goldhanger’s theory, but in doing so opens up the whole historical background to Hitler’s rise to power.
http://www.wsws.org/history/1997/apr1997/fascism.shtml

[BIGdavalad]

Hitler’s popularity was based on the middle class fear of the working class and a coming revolution.

It was nothing to do with the Versailles 'stab in the back' or the promises to make Germany a great power again then?

Had the SPD allied themselves with the KPD, as Trotsky had called for Hitler would never have come to power, in the quagmire of German politics in that period, nothing is more certain.

In the 1933 German federal elections, the SPD and the KPD combined polled 30% the NSDAP got 44%. How would combining the two have won the election?

Good to see the usual accuracy from that wsws site you keep quoting Danny

[DannyD]

Dava there were many things that contributed to the collapse of the Weimar Republic. Through the 30s the German Government under Gustav Stresemann first as Chancellor and then as Foreign minister brought the reparation payments to a manageable level. He did it by borrowing from the USA long term and paying that money back to the Allies. The USA also at the same time demanded from the Allies QWar loans granted to them during WW1. So it became a viscous circle. By the end of 1928 the economy of Germany was looking at its best for a long time.

 The inflow of  foreign capital was so large Germany could make its reparations payments without even having to earn a surplus on its trade account.
Adam Tooze The Wages of Destruction p7

Then came the Wall Street Crash. Germany being the weakest link within the developed nations felt the full force and all the good work accomplished by Stresemann was undone. This created the crisis within the German middle class that brought Hitler his power base. Their savings and the hope of making money on the volatile stock market impoverished  millions of the middle class, both Jew and Gentile  The Wall Street Crash had more of an effect than Versailles  If that hadn’t happened then Germany could well have weathered the storm, negotiated better with the allies and with the USA on board the history would have been far different, but that is speculation, historical reality took control.

Yes but you can’t have read the piece or I didn’t make it clear Dava, either way the website makes it abundantly clear about the election. You haven’t visited it have you so can’t complain of inaccuracies can you?

The 1931 elections should have been the last that Hitler claimed a majority over the combined Socialist vote. The fact that both the SPD and KPD were tied into the parliamentary system as separate entities proved their down fall. The power of the working class (SPD/KPD) far outweighed that of the Fascists on the streets of Germany, Trotsky was spot on and the history of the Russian Revolution which he lead, underlined this claim. It was not about Parliamentary democracy was it? Once Hitler got his foot under the table, that “ideal” was crushed under every jackboot he could muster. The crisis had reached the point were it was about the revolution versus the counter revolution. The leadership of the workers organisations which were stronger by far lacked the leadership with the backbone to fight.

If you had gone to the website and read David Norths lecture notes  you would have taken in ( maybe not) what the modern historian H.A. Turner said on the matter,

"The November election dealt a staggering blow to Hitler and his party. After an unbroken succession of dramatic gains over the previous three years, the Nazi juggernaut faltered. Many voters who had cast their ballots for the Nazis in July in the expectation that they would soon come to power and provide quick, decisive remedies to Germany's plight, defected in frustration at the failure of Hitler's bid for the chancellorship." Henry A. Turner, Hitler’s Thirty Days to Power: January 1933 (New York: Addison-Wesley Publishing Co., 1996), pp. 14-15

North follows this up by saying :

And yet, the working class was politically immobilized by the irresponsible and defeatist policies of its leadership. The Social Democracy clung to the rotting corpse of the Weimar Republic, reassuring itself that the democratic constitution would provide protection for the working class even if Hitler came to power. The KPD refused to alter its disastrous tactics, hiding its growing demoralization behind a mask of demagogic bombast.
The end game was played out in January 1933. Finally convinced that the two workers parties were too paralyzed to offer serious resistance, the German bourgeoisie invited Hitler to take power through constitutional means. Without a single shot being fired, Hitler became chancellor on January 30, 1933.

The working class suffered the greatest defeat in its history, and this defeat cleared the way for the catastrophe that followed.

Even taking in your double pike and summersault Dava you have not made a case against the claim that the working class was the stronger force. It was the abject treachery of  the leadership of both parties that allowed Hitler to come to power

[jambutty]

I reckon it was exaggerated to some extent as the physical and forensic evidence suggests, and found it disgusting to see Irving jailed for a legitimate academic assessment.

Are you a WUM or just killing time waiting for your BNP meeting to begin?


Really cool username btw.

[DannyD]

Are you a WUM or just killing time waiting for your BNP meeting to begin?


Really cool username btw.

Jam the "evidence" the holocaust deniers cite is from Zionists own sources. It is based on the number who were said to have survived that was used in the words of Norman Finkelstein "to shake down the Swiss bankers"

For me I am of the opinion that only their own take any notice of the scientific research, but when they are proved right by claims from Israel, what can you do?

[jambutty]

Jam the "evidence" the holocaust deniers cite is from Zionists own sources. It is based on the number who were said to have survived that was used in the words of Norman Finkelstein "to shake down the Swiss bankers"

For me I am of the opinion that only their own take any notice of the scientific research, but when they are proved right by claims from Israel, what can you do?

Danny, imo, Irving is an anti-semitic prick.

[DannyD]

Me too, but have you read Finkelsteins The Holocaust Industry Jam, the book will give you an idea on how these bastards use the figures given as survivors by Israeli officials to argue about numbers. Creating the argument that the whole thing is a set up.

[DannyD]

Just glanced through Ruth Linn’s book on Rudolph Vrba, she says on page 61 that among those who benefited from the way Vrba was treated were the Holocaust deniers. They use Zionists methods to ignore, discredit him as a proof that Auschwitz wasn’t a death camp. One such was Arthur Butz who used the book by Oskar Neumann a leader of the Slovakian Judenrat, . He says that if the report fron Vrba & Wetzler were true then those who interviewed them after their escape, when they gave the details of the set up at Auschwitz, would surely have know their names, yet Nuemann never names them in  his book.

Even our “old friend” David Irvine gets in on the act. He was sued for libel  in 2000 by Professor Deborah E. Lipstadt, but again used the Auschwitz Protocols of Vrba & Wetzlet and the omission of their names as defence that it was all a hoax. If there was such a report the argument went why doesn’t it have a name to it.
So you see by evading naming the two heroes the Zionists dig hole after hole not just for themselves but for the Jewish people..

[Yorkykopite]

What's the main bone of contention in the thread? What is the larger agenda of certain posters?

Well, I don’t have an agenda, obviously.     I’m just interested in history.

But it is important to get this particular piece of history right, right? Those who want to share the blame for the holocaust between the Nazis and the Zionists are every bit as mad and dangerous as the out-and-out Deniers in my book. See how they’re beginning to team up even on this thread.

The agenda of DannyD? Isn’t it obvious? It’s to show that Israel is a Nazi state that deserves to be eliminated. He’s said it many times on many threads and this is just another of them. What better way of supporting this view than to propose the thesis that Zionism and Nazism collaborated on the holocaust? To construct this absurd idea he relies on a few de-contextualised quotations endlessly recycled by a small coterie of like-minded zealots. This turgid carousel, which has swung by several times already on this thread, is what passes for analysis.  Hecht, Greenstein, Eichmann and Brenner, Hecht, Greenstein, Eichmann and Brenner, Hecht, Greenstein, Eichmann and Brenner. And always the same little collection of ‘facts’ poked through the same little holes. Talk about in-breeding. It’s no wonder the result is Village-Idiot history.

It’s been pointed out to me by posters I respect that it’s pointless arguing with the likes of DannyD. I know it is. You can present a vast array of contradictory evidence and he’ll just ignore it. Like it never happened. The most he’ll say is that the work of the mass of holocaust historians, both Jewish and non-Jewish, who disagree with his version of events is the result of  a “billion-dollar” funded and supremely orchestrated Zionist conspiracy. Absolutely zero evidence of course to back up this grotesque claim. But doesn’t this strike you as the mind-set of a Nazi? The idea that the Jews with all their money have got everything sewn up and only a few brave souls have dared to get the truth out.

And what are these 'truths'?

So, for instance, we are told that Raul Hilberg is banned in Israel. Not true. That Rudolph Vrba was a “non-person” in Israel. Not true. That Rudolph Kastner was shot by Israeli government agents to shut him up. Not true. I don’t know whether DannyD deliberately tells these lies or whether he genuinely has come to believe them over the years. It hardly matters. What matters is that they don’t go unchallenged. Anyone with a passing interest in holocaust historiography knows what a lively, angry, contentious and argumentative beast it is. Disagreements are the norm, not the exception. Some of the most passionate historiographical disagreements of the last 30 years have been between holocaust historians. Goldhagen, Hilberg, Davidowicz, Arno Mayer, Gitta Sereny. Each of these writers triggered off some academic civil war by writing what they did about the Final Solution. In between the lines, DannyD has to sort of acknowledge this - as when he claims Hilberg was banned from Israel because the Israelis didn't like what he wrote. It's a lie, naturally, but nevertheless the hidden truth is that some Israeli historians (and German ones for that matter) disagreed with what he had to say. But that's f*cking normal in any historical debate. There is certainly no ‘party line’ emanating from Israel or anywhere else.

Indeed, the only ‘party line’ is DannyD’s own, which is why he was earlier able to churn out a couple of thousand words belonging to somebody called Tony Greenstein and pass them off as his own. Again, whether this was deliberate deception or the necessary result of sinking your ideas so completely into the monolith that passes for Trotskyist history that authorship ceases to matter is hardly worth talking about. But the idea that a plagiarist should accuse his adversaries of an authorised view of history is…well, it’s a bit ironic, innit?   

It’s the same with the history of 1933-45, the years that led up to and included the Final Solution. We are told by DannyD that Hitler was a Zionist. Not true. That zionists actively obstructed the rescue of European Jews who weren’t destined for Palestine. Not true. That Roosevelt was prepared to open the doors of the USA to let in Jews but the zionists stopped him. Neither are true. That Eichmann was a zionist. Not true. That all the Judenrats were controlled by zionists. Not true. That Kastner knew about Auschwitz and the vast bulk of Hungarian Jews didn’t. Not true.

I’ve referenced all these points in earlier posts, where they remain completely undisturbed by DannyD’s subsequent thrashings around.

Then there’s the things he never mentions, because they don’t work for him. The fact that Jews in Palestine signed up in their thousands to fight for the Allies. The fact that a Jewish brigade (of zionists) was raised in Palestine and fought in northern Italy. The fact that the resistance in Poland was zionist as well as socialist. The fact that no Jew was ever saved from the gas chambers by shouting “Hang on! I’m a Zionist”. The fact the Jewish Agency in Palestine, England and America lobbied the Allies to bomb Auschwitz. The fact that there was nowhere for the Jews to escape to. The fact that Jews in Europe were on their own, without arms, without allies, without a navy, without an army, without even a government abroad to bat on their behalf.

Nah, let’s not mention any of this. Let’s just say the Zionists and the Nazis “worked together” on the holocaust. Don’t you feel the puke in your mouth when you say this Dan?

Just think about Kastner for a moment. Why did Eichmann choose him (and Joel Brand) to suggest an exchange of 1,000,000 Jews for 10,000 winterised trucks for the eastern front – the “blood for trucks” deal? It wasn’t because Kastner and Brand were in the Judenrat. They weren’t. It wasn’t because they had a network of connections throughout the Hungarian Jewish communities. They didn’t. As I pointed out earlier, the zionists were a small minority amongst the Hungarian Jews (one of many historical facts that Hannah Arendt got wrong in Eichmann in Jerusalem). It wasn’t because they were buddies who shared a similar goal! Self-evidently stupid. It wasn’t because they had the trucks themselves! They didn’t. No, the reason why Eichmann approached the zionists was that he wanted to make contact with the western Allies, and of all the Jewish groups in Europe it was the zionists who had some connection with the governments of Britain and America. They were approached precisely because, of all the organised Jewish groups in Europe, they were the most opposed to the Nazis and had an active connection with the Allies to prove it.

Hannah Arendt’s book was bad history. Personally, I think she was a marvellous writer and political philosopher, but her historical judgment was awry in Eichmann. It’s been said by DannyD that Raul Hilberg – “my hero” apparently – endorsed all her judgements. But that is wrong. He didn’t. He resented the way she had used his book to draw a picture of what had happened in 1942-44 which he felt was false. He said this in his memoir, The Politics of Memory. The Journey of a Holocaust Historian (1996 pp. 159-51). “In writing about the Jewish councils I had emphasized the extent to which the German apparatus counted in their co-operation….For me, however, the problem was deeper…Their strategy was a continuation of the adjustments and adaptations practiced by Jews for centuries. I could not separate the Jewish leaders from the Jewish populace because I believed that these men represented the essence of a time-honoured Jewish reaction to danger”.

Earlier this week I met Rudolph Kastner’s daughter and also Ladislaus Lob who escaped from Hungary on Kastner’s train. They’re biased observers obviously, but that doesn’t make them liars. Both agreed with this comment by Hilberg. The name ‘Auschwitz’ was known to most adults in the Hungarian Jewish community. Compliance (NOT ‘collaboration’) with what was happening ran deeper than a handful of cunning zionists.

That’s where this thread began, I think. With this uncomfortable truth – for all of us – that Hilberg wrote about in The Destruction of the European Jews. A mature society can discuss this question without ever forgetting the fact that the Final Solution was entirely a product of Nazi philosophy and Nazi power. It can discuss it also without losing sight of the truth contained in Spence’s post:

Dan, really,mate, people were desperate to survive, just because some became Kapos doesn't mean there was a big zionist conspiracy, it just means they were scared and desperate. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like, I mean, I read about it, but the feelings of the people in the camps and ghettos are way beyond any that I can imagine

* * *

Finally we come to this deplorable comment:

I reckon it was exaggerated to some extent as the physical and forensic evidence suggests, and found it disgusting to see Irving jailed for a legitimate academic assessment.

And this predictable response:

I agree with you that a proper investigation of the Holocaust has been clouded by the Zionist response to any questions that don't fit into their re write. 

Well now they’ve found each other. The extreme right and the extreme left. Neither hates the Jews of course. No no. It’s ‘the Zionists’ they hate now. But I’m glad they’re now chumming up because it saves me pointing out again how Brenner’s book – DannyD’s bible – was once published by Noonday press, a neo-Nazi publishing house in America. You can see why they did it. Brenner had apparently shown a classic “Jewish conspiracy” in the Protocols of Zion mould – see how the clever ‘Zionists’ manipulated the Germans to do their bidding then deceived the entire world by claiming that the Nazis had pulled off the Holocaust on their own.

It's often said that anti-Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism. I’ve said it myself, including on RAWK. It’s less often pointed out that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are perfectly compatible in theory, and often are in practice. .

[Armin]

Unlocked by request.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

You can rake over the history books and delve ever deeper into versions of the truth from now to eternity and it will ultimately matter very little with regard to today’s situation in Israel.

No amount of affiliation, fact or fiction, between the Nazis and the Zionists then can serve to strengthen or weaken the argument against the question of Israel and her actions today. The simple fact is that her actions are appalling, shameful and malevolent, they stand alone for all to see. The holocaust needs no historical reinvestigation or alteration merely to show Israel up for the reprehensible state that it is.

I appreciate that Israel is not the topic of this thread but it is never far away as this thread shows.

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. USHMM

Zionism and its collaborators is systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder. A creeping genocide.

[JDAM]

Does anyone know why a forum entitled "News and Current events" allows for a thread about the Holocaust which is neither news or a current event?

A thread hijacked by DannyD, the resident extremist left wing anti-semite in collusion with extremist Muslims who are enjoying political intercourse together over their joint hatred of all things Jewish and Israeli.

Shall we start a thread about the Muslim rape and pillaging/Holocaust against the Christians and Jews after the inception of Islam?  Or will the axis of left wing extremists and their Islamic allies bombard the Admin here with complaints?

It seems that with the handful of Jews around here having been completely outnumbered by the growing Islamic presence and the collusion with the treacherous extremist, 5th columnist left wing shills - that the Admin now pander to this axis of evil who want to disseminate their filthy propaganda.

[PaislyShankley]

Does anyone know why a forum entitled "News and Current events" allows for a thread about the Holocaust which is neither news or a current event?

Does it matter?

[Yorkykopite]

These Mods, they're like Greek gods dreaming up unusual punishments. Now I'm paired with DannyD forever, to the end of time.

I'm going to leave this thread and go to another board entirely, where they don't know me. Such is the shame.   

[PaislyShankley]

These Mods, they're like Greek gods dreaming up unusual punishments. Now I'm paired with DannyD forever, to the end of time.

I'm going to leave this thread and go to another board entirely, where they don't know me. Such is the shame.  

Come over to theroadend, we have very low standards.

[Yorkykopite]

Come over to theroadend, we have very low standards.

I remember watching the Road End kick the shit out of Leeds fans from my spec on the Kop, on Grand National Day 1977 (I think). I remember thinking even then "they have very low standards".

[PaislyShankley]

They've got lower, it's a sewer of a place.

[Hinesy]

Does anyone know why a forum entitled "News and Current events" allows for a thread about the Holocaust which is neither news or a current event?

A thread hijacked by DannyD, the resident extremist left wing anti-semite in collusion with extremist Muslims who are enjoying political intercourse together over their joint hatred of all things Jewish and Israeli.

Shall we start a thread about the Muslim rape and pillaging/Holocaust against the Christians and Jews after the inception of Islam?  Or will the axis of left wing extremists and their Islamic allies bombard the Admin here with complaints?

It seems that with the handful of Jews around here having been completely outnumbered by the growing Islamic presence and the collusion with the treacherous extremist, 5th columnist left wing shills - that the Admin now pander to this axis of evil who want to disseminate their filthy propaganda.

I see no evidence that the admin pander to any political viewpoint, nor stop anyone from posting their views within limits set out by the rules of the forum.

I for one find this thread difficult but fascinating and am enjoying a proper debate, even though I have my own opinions fairly set in stone.

Personally there may not be the most appropriate board on here for such a thread ("Historical Debates Forum" having been lost in the last round of RAWK cuts) but News and Current Affairs is as good as any.

Personally I can promise you I won't be pandering to any

treacherous extremist, 5th columnist left wing shill

should I come across one.

[jambutty]

Yorky, if you leave, we will hunt you down and drag you back kicking and screaming.

[DJBrenton]

Can't we just have a 'Prejudices and Other Deeply Held Beliefs' Board? Maybe even a 'I Don't Care What You Say I Disagree' board for arguments.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

These Mods, they're like Greek gods dreaming up unusual punishments. Now I'm paired with DannyD forever, to the end of time.

I'm going to leave this thread and go to another board entirely, where they don't know me. Such is the shame.   

Looks bad that, mate.

[hide5seek]

Dannyd I'm probably being stupid here but why if anything you claim regarding some sort of  conspiracy between some Jews and Nazi's is this not bigger news?

[El Campeador]

Yorky, if you leave, we will hunt you down and drag you back kicking and screaming.

Count me in. I got his legs.

[El Campeador]

Does anyone know why a forum entitled "News and Current events" allows for a thread about the Holocaust which is neither news or a current event?

A thread hijacked by DannyD, the resident extremist left wing anti-semite in collusion with extremist Muslims who are enjoying political intercourse together over their joint hatred of all things Jewish and Israeli.

Shall we start a thread about the Muslim rape and pillaging/Holocaust against the Christians and Jews after the inception of Islam?  Or will the axis of left wing extremists and their Islamic allies bombard the Admin here with complaints?

It seems that with the handful of Jews around here having been completely outnumbered by the growing Islamic presence and the collusion with the treacherous extremist, 5th columnist left wing shills - that the Admin now pander to this axis of evil who want to disseminate their filthy propaganda.

Hahahahaha.

Paranoid git. Don't you have a war to go cheer on? Tell us how lovely Gaza is today, or how Lebanon wasn't leveled?

[Armin]

The board is called 'News and Current Events' but should probably be retitled News, Current Events and Political Debate'. The intention was always that it would serve as a place where debates such as this could be held without competing alongside the trivial stuff in the Boozer section.

We discussed Anti Zionism and Anti Semitism in detail a while ago:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=135470.0

I don't think its appropriate for anyone to equate the two, if someone says they're ant zionist that doesn't mean its fair game to call them anti semitic and I'd like to see an end to that line of argument on here.

[nyctex]

Armin you're right. 

Kurt Waldheim would be in agreement

[Armin]

I could invoke Godwin's Law at this point but being called a Nazi seems to go with the territory.

[nyctex]

I could invoke Godwin's Law at this point but being called a Nazi seems to go with the territory.

why?  Was  Kurt Waldeim a Nazi?  Most of the UN didn't think so. 

You know what I'm glad to see that Armin realizes that the UN is a Fascist front.   Well Done!!!@

[Hinesy]

why?  Was  Kurt Waldeim a Nazi?  Most of the UN didn't think so. 

You know what I'm glad to see that Armin realizes that the UN is a Fascist front.   Well Done!!!@

The leap's of logic here qualify for the triple jump in Beijing... 

[nyctex]

Beijing?  ahhh well no comment on their tendency towards national socialism

[El Campeador]

Beijing?  ahhh well no comment on their tendency towards national socialism

You're on top form today A.

May I humbly suggest you practice calming down ahead of your trip to the socialist bastion Tuesday.

Alternatively, you could show up on the Kop with your current attitude and Texas hat. I'll pay you a beer for every minute you survive.

[DannyD]

In Yorkykopites last long post I am called not directly of course, that would be expecting some honesty.

A Holocaust denier,

But it is important to get this particular piece of history right, right? Those who want to share the blame for the holocaust between the Nazis and the Zionists are every bit as mad and dangerous as the out-and-out Deniers in my book. See how they’re beginning to team up even on this thread.

A Nazi

But doesn’t this strike you as the mind-set of a Nazi? The idea that the Jews with all their money have got everything sewn up and only a few brave souls have dared to get the truth out.

And an anti Semite:

It's often said that anti-Zionism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism. I’ve said it myself, including on RAWK. It’s less often pointed out that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are perfectly compatible in theory, and often are in practice. .

And then there is the misquotes, diversions and down right lies.

we are told that Raul Hilberg is banned in Israel. Not true …..as when he claims Hilberg was banned from Israel because the Israelis didn't like what he wrote. It's a lie, 

Nobody claimed Hilberg was banned his works were, they were definitely never printed until recently, now for me not publishing a work that is acclaimed world wide and its subject deals with the most important event for the population of that country you have to ask why wasn’t it ever published in that country.

Yad Vashen. The Holocaust industry HQ were never honest enough to say it was banned, but after they refused his work, no other publisher in Israel would touch it. Now maybe we can argue over the wording I am not a great scholar you might have caught on to that, so lets just say he was victimised in Israel for writing the wrong things in the wrong way.

See also Straw Donkeys Post that includes two quotes saying his books were never printed in Israel dated
Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2008, 09:05:10 PM »

That Rudolph Vrba was a “non-person” in Israel. Not true

Ruth Linn The Dean of Haifa University wrote a very good detailed book on the subject of Vrba being a none person in Israel, Escaping Aushwitz – A Culture of Forgetting. in it she names names, like Vrba she too had to put up a fight to get it published in Israel. The cover jacket says In 1998 Linn arranged for publication of the first Hebrew edition on Vrba’s memoirs. In Escaping Auschwitz she establishes the chronology of Vrba.s disappearance not only from Auschwitz but also from the Israeli Holocaust narrative, skilfully exposing how the official Israeli historiography of the Holocaust has sought to suppress the story.”

Linn is not a raving Trot or a self hating Jew, she like many academics after her are starting to tear down the wall of silence and deceit that is causing a rotten smell around Israeli intellectual circles. She says that at every stage in publishing the book and granting Vrba his Honorary Doctorate everyone was amazed they had never heard of either of the two men by name.
But she faced daily attacks from some academics who launched a bitter campaign to keep the book off the shelves

That Rudolph Kastner was shot by Israeli government agents to shut him up.

The murderer Ze'ev Eckstein was spotted by an off duty policeman and his car number plate was taken down. He was caught and at the murder trial he confessed under questioning that he was a paid agent for the Israeli secret Service Mossad, that testimony was not countered. 

We are told by DannyD that Hitler was a Zionist. Not true. That zionists actively obstructed the rescue of European Jews who weren’t destined for Palestine. Not true. That Roosevelt was prepared to open the doors of the USA to let in Jews but the zionists stopped him. Neither are true. That Eichmann was a zionist. Not true. That all the Judenrats were controlled by zionists. Not true. That Kastner knew about Auschwitz and the vast bulk of Hungarian Jews didn’t. Not true.

Well who ever said Hitler was a Zionist, someone point that out to me please and while you are at it the Eichmann one as well.


I posted accredited sources showing the policy of leading Zionists before during and after the war, namely Ben Gurion I also cited Roosevelts friend Morris Ernst who acted as his emissary on a successful mission to Britain, to sound out how many Jewish refugees they would take.

I gave the outcome as relayed by Ernst in his book So Far So Good” p170. in this post below.
 
Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2008, 03:49:11 PM »


There are so many quotes about Kasztner’s secret its unbelievable to even think of using this as a stick to beat my argument show the desperation the apologists have come to. But just let’s take the witnesses at the Kasztner Libel Trial shall we. Common Jewish workers some even members of Kasztner’s own party, faced by the attorney General of Israel himself no less, and Yorky tells us they lied, perjured themselves in front of the whole world. Yet we are told to believe a real liar who was found guilty twice on perjuring himself by using his influence to free not one as I first claimed but at least two more top Nazi war criminals


I am accused of ignoring the Jews who signed up to join the British Army in Jerusalem I said in this post:- Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2008, 09:56:03 AM »

30,000 Jews went to the recruiting offices in Tel Aviv and against the wishes of most of the Zionist organisations. joined the British Army in Palestine Read my post here

I am accused of plagiarism by using stuff in Tony Greensteins book. I used quotes he had in his work and gave the original source he used. When I used Greenstein which was limited I gave him as the source. That for me is the correct method. I pulled Yorky up over never giving a source or link and the accusation of plagiarism was his defence.

But later when he eventually was forced to use accredited quotes and he used them from Hilberg through all his defence of Kasztner he failed to use the original source and never explained to the reader that Hilberg’s text were direct from the discredited notes and testimony of Kasztner himself. Hilberg’s source was printed at the bottom of each page as numbered notes. That was why I asked him to photocopy one of the full pages so the readers could see for themselves this “error” Of course he has never reproduced the page.

It’s been said by DannyD that Raul Hilberg – “my hero” apparently – endorsed all her judgements.

Can anyone find this for me? I did know Hilberg wasn’t too pleased with Arendt from the obituary written by Norman Finkelstein for Hilberg.  "There Was a Man". In it he says Hilberg confided in him about Arendt’s over use of his work “ with less than generous attribution, he never forgave her for this oversight” but he was more angry that behind his back she also recommended Princetown University Press not to publish his Destruction of the European Jews. Nothing about the quality or the honesty of her work, He counted her snub of him by saying her Origins of Totalitarianism “lacked originality” But authors fall out all the time. What I did say about Hilberg and Arendt was she used a lot of his work in her study of the Eichmann trial. Yorky really creases me up, he argues Arendts book was written 45 years ago (forgetting the revised 1965 edition, does this a lot Yorky does) and so is defunct, yet Hilberg’s trilogy was written 2 years before but is “the bible” for all Holocaust studies. Arendt used a lot of Hilberg in her revised edition and if Yorky hasn’t read it how can he tell us it is not only “bad history” but not history at all. “It doesn’t fit in with my line so its rubbish” Read this post here…

Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2008, 01:57:37 PM »

There is a little point I would like to take up here with Yorky’s present quote from Hilberg on this matter. Readers may notice after a few sentences there are a few dots, this shows Yorky has chopped the quote up into what he wants us to see. I would like the whole paragraph to make a proper judgement please. But taking all this aside Arendt’s book is not bad history it is counted as a classic, in fact it is a Penguin Classic and when it came out in Israel it was met with much acclaim. Yorky mustn’t have been there at that time eh!


Interesting that Yorky met Kasztners daughter, wonder did he ask her why her old fella ran around Germany trying to save known war criminals, a whole flock of them no less. Did he ask her how he felt when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled he was a collaborator when he perjured himself to get the release of SS General Kurt Becker known murderer and holder of all the Jewish wealth “confiscated from those being relocated” Did she tell Yorky that after the war Becker became a millionaire and sold wheat for years to the Israeli government, and appeared on Israeli TV as a guest on a chat show about business. Did she explain why he also made attempts to save, SS General Herman Krumey, SS General Hans Juttner chief of the SS.Fuhrungshaup-tamt (SS Operational Main Office).

In 1947, Kasztner tried in vain to save SS Captain Deteir Wisliceny another of Eichmanns deputies by handing him over to the British for "further investi¬gation” with a sworn avadavat as to his “good character”, to no avail Wisliceny was executed by the Slovaks.

As Robert Kempner, a senior official at the Nuremberg trial, remarked, Kasztner was running around at Nuremberg looking for Nazis he could save.

Yes the Final Solution was a Nazi invention but it could never have worked so efficiently without the “co-operation” of leading Jews the majority being Zionists who made sure it all went off to plan. Time and time again this comes up within literature dealing with The Holocaust, are they all Loonies or Self Haters? I apologise if my words are less civil than the good Professor Hilberg, but I am the product of a secondary modern education so don’t know how to tart things up so even a dogs dinner looks respectable. We call it as it is in Liverpool.

As regards this Trucks for Jews mission, can anyone but those who wish to be blinded not see that high ranking Nazis whome could have gone right up to Hitler but surely went to Himmler used this nobody Brand to do their business with the British so as they could get 10,000 trucks, so much tea so much coffee. Or even do a deal with The Brits to stop the war. The whole gang of them were doomed what were the Brits going to do. Set all these butchers free after the war? What would the Allies expect the reaction from the survivors, their families and any sane person alive in the world at that time. For Christ sake the whole idea is so far off key it wouldn’t even make a poor movie script.

The Nazis had numerous channels that they had used before, The Pope for one, Spain, Switzeralnd and a gaggle of Quislings, why on earth faced with defeat do they send Brand to the Mid East to talk to Lord Moyne.

Has anyone thought it out that if the fantasy was real, what was the outcome? Wouldn’t it prove Ben Hecht’s claim that the Zionist leaders stopped the deal allowing hundreds of thousands to go to their deaths? How the Kasztner apologists hang on to this story, but it is the only factor they have to tell the world Kasztner was a hero working for all Jews not the Prominents.

Brenner’s book – DannyD’s bible – was once published by Noonday press, a neo-Nazi publishing house in America.

This book came out in 1983 and was published by Lawrence Hill & Co (March 1983) So Amazon says anyway.

And  Brennerwould be in good company at Noonday Books, go to their Alternative Bookshop, type in Holocaust and look you don’t get Denial Denial you get these two books Settela & The Jewish Holocaust: An Annotated Guide to Books in English. They look very Jewish to me
http://www.alternativebookshop.com/SearchResults.php?allText=Holocaust

and if you go to their history section you get a good selection any member of the Left would be proud of …
http://www.alternativebookshop.com/BookList.php?categoryid=5
 
Now to the politics section next and is a Lefts delight. Marxism, Revolution, Trotskyism and hello what’s this here a whole section on Anti - Fascism and Racism. These bastards at Noonday sure know how to hide a good Nazi book don’t they?
Yorky’s attrmpts to tie me Brenner as active Jew haters is about as sound as his book knowledge. For someone who owns up to having 25,000 books at home he sure makes a monkey of himself over them, but this is no laughing matter, the accusations against me are serious.

 I am labelled without any proof of being Anti Semite, A Nazi. and a Holocaust Denier. Of course in Yorky speak they are never directly said, but the reader is left to no doubt what he is getting at.

Well now they’ve found each other. The extreme right and the extreme left.

In this instance a post of mine is dissected and carefully selected text placed next to another that asks questions of how The Holocaust is abused.

Quote from: Mafioso on February 25, 2008, 07:23:41 AM
I reckon it was exaggerated to some extent as the physical and forensic evidence suggests, and found it disgusting to see Irving jailed for a legitimate academic assessment.

Of course the rest of my text as a reply to Mafioso is never used, it concluded with:

Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #163 on: February 26, 2008, 07:23:25 PM »
The real questions surrounding The Holocaust is not about numbers, it is how Hitler came to power, who backed him, who kept the deaths secret, and why has the Israeli ruling clique, since the 60s, organised a re-write of the history of The Holocaust, allowing reactionaries such as Irvine twisted credibility when the truth comes out.

I take serious these accusations and so I should. Yorky in his anti Trotskyist rage in the other thread names organisations that were broad based and diverse in their form. He gives a short list but doesn’t list The Anti Nazi League of which I was a member. I have fought in the true sense of the word racists and true fascist for over 40 years of my life.

At this time in that life I look back as most do in retirement and ask questions of myself. I am 100% certain that I have lived a political life I can be proud of, and have the respect of anyone and everyone who worked alongside of me. To have these unfounded accusation that are clearly meant to cause the reader to question my motives are sick, but they are on the usual level of Zionists, who by the way are closer to Nazism, not by what a person calls them but by their actions.

[DannyD]

You can rake over the history books and delve ever deeper into versions of the truth from now to eternity and it will ultimately matter very little with regard to today’s situation in Israel.

No amount of affiliation, fact or fiction, between the Nazis and the Zionists then can serve to strengthen or weaken the argument against the question of Israel and her actions today. The simple fact is that her actions are appalling, shameful and malevolent, they stand alone for all to see. The holocaust needs no historical reinvestigation or alteration merely to show Israel up for the reprehensible state that it is.

I appreciate that Israel is not the topic of this thread but it is never far away as this thread shows.

Zionism and its collaborators is systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder. A creeping genocide.

Fletch I agree with you to a point, but the history of Israel is based on the myth that Zionism was the making of the New Jew and it was Never Again going to happen.. That it was a heroic force during the war and The Holocaust. It is as I say in one of my posts a nation that is built on the quick sand of lies and conspiracy.

There is  a growing movement within Israel itself asking questions about "how can we treat the Palestinians so badly when we experienced much of the same treatment ourselves."

 Before he died the much quoted Raul Hilberg publicly expressed these words.

The New Jew has to have a new history and The Holocaust Industry and Yad Vashem are its outlet. Take the lies away from Israelis history and the reason for its being is erased and maybe more understanding of the present and why Palestinians will never give up their fight for their homeland will replace them..

[DannyD]

Does anyone know why a forum entitled "News and Current events" allows for a thread about the Holocaust which is neither news or a current event?

A thread hijacked by DannyD, the resident extremist left wing anti-semite in collusion with extremist Muslims who are enjoying political intercourse together over their joint hatred of all things Jewish and Israeli.

Shall we start a thread about the Muslim rape and pillaging/Holocaust against the Christians and Jews after the inception of Islam?  Or will the axis of left wing extremists and their Islamic allies bombard the Admin here with complaints?

It seems that with the handful of Jews around here having been completely outnumbered by the growing Islamic presence and the collusion with the treacherous extremist, 5th columnist left wing shills - that the Admin now pander to this axis of evil who want to disseminate their filthy propaganda.

All those pointing a finger at me just take a look at the posts. I attempted to move it on dealing with how Hitler came to power. It would be a pity that it folds before the very important debate over how The Holocaust was conceived, its economic base and how we learn the lessons from it. But really what did you all expect me to do after that vicious personal attack on my credibility.

While I have been away I notice the Mods and especially Armin has taken some pressure to once again lock the thread up. Childish claims to pack a knotted hanky on a stick and walk off into the sunset with a tear in the eye show how poor the opposition has become in this thread. Dava posted a good point on the “Harry goes hunting” thread about being dragged in front of a TV and forced at gunpoint to watch it.

Looking at this thread is your choice, if you don’t like it don’t click on it But what is wanted here is repression of a point of view. This follows on from the repression of the issues within Israel itself. Some of the language used against Islam, would be classed as anti Semitic if directed at Jews, just get a grip.

 I am grateful to the Mods for allowing fair play here. I have been banned on several occasions and on reflection I probably deserved a “rest” on most of them. Get on with it I am not shooting bullets across a barricade. I have given an honest account of the issues, posting links and accredited quotes, no lies no embellishing the facts. All I post can be verified through the books and websites I used.

[hide5seek]

Danny I still would like to know how come this so called zionist conspiracy isn't in the main stream?

[DannyD]

Danny I still would like to know how come this so called zionist conspiracy isn't in the main stream?

Well you haven't paid attention reading the posts have you. The mainstream you talk about have published works by many authors concerning this case. Even this year a book claiming to exonerate Kasztner has been published. you should go and buy the books I have listed in this thread and see for yourself what took place in Europe during the 30s and 40s.

But are you saying that if the "mainstream" don't publish, it isn't history? If that is so then Raul Hilbergs Destruction of the European Jews is about a myth, well it is to those who live in Israel, cos his book wasn't published there. Now isn't that a turn up!