Topic: Lampard named Derby Manager

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Based on him having never coached a team in his life and his qualification level obtained so far are lower than Stevie's.  He's also going into a team who finished in 6th place this last season. He will be expected to at least get them into another play-off campaign.  Working under great managers means nothing if so how come all of Fergies boy's didn't rip it up?

they worked under one great manager, whereas lampard has worked under Mourinho, hiddink, Benitez, ancelotti, capello and very good ones like pellegrini, Ranieri, scolari, erikson so he’s exposed to a lot more different methods

As for expectation they’re cutting the budget so he’s fine as long as he doesn’t get them into a relegation battle

[PhaseOfPlay]

you do know that being a good coach doesn’t mean you’ll do a good job running the show, despite what one person on here thinks?

You surely don't mean me, because I've consistently said that not all coaches are cut out to be managers.

The issue isn't Lampard - the issue is that people with no experience in managing or coaching walk into manager and coach jobs over people who have better track records, based solely on who that individual was as a player. It's ridiculous. It's like getting the cashier at your local Barclays to be the CEO of the whole organization, with no in-between experience or education.

[PhaseOfPlay]

they worked under one great manager, whereas lampard has worked under Mourinho, hiddink, Benitez, ancelotti, capello and very good ones like pellegrini, Ranieri, scolari, erikson so he’s exposed to a lot more different methods

And?

[afc tukrish]

You surely don't mean me, because I've consistently said that not all coaches are cut out to be managers.

The issue isn't Lampard - the issue is that people with no experience in managing or coaching walk into manager and coach jobs over people who have better track records, based solely on who that individual was as a player. It's ridiculous. It's like getting the cashier at your local Barclays to be the CEO of the whole organization, with no in-between experience or education.

Knew you'd pop round eventually...

All you have to do is play for great managers, the stuff all sinks in automatically, all the details, the nuances, the situational triggers, it's just all there when your career is over.

Tim Sherwood is a genius...

[Lush is the best medicine...]

And?

exposure to different methods from different cultures etc that you won’t get working under one genius

You surely don't mean me, because I've consistently said that not all coaches are cut out to be managers.

The issue isn't Lampard - the issue is that people with no experience in managing or coaching walk into manager and coach jobs over people who have better track records, based solely on who that individual was as a player. It's ridiculous. It's like getting the cashier at your local Barclays to be the CEO of the whole organization, with no in-between experience or education.

who are those better qualified people, becuase clement and mcclaren were far more ‘qualified’ but both were failures there, go back a decade and you have Roy Keane taking over Sunderland who were bottom after a couple of games and a total mess and won them the league, and he had as much coaching experience as me when he got that job, and from memory never played in the lower leagues of English football, much like lampard.

Absolutely nothing like that Barclays scenario at all, more like one of the best traders become the director of that department, which isn’t that much of a leap as history has shown.

[Gerry Attrick]

I see both sides of the argument here but in this particular instance it doesn't feel that bad to me. He's bringing Jody Morris with him who has a track record of being able to coach, so he'll probably take a back seat on the training pitch and just focus on managing duties. I've a feeling this will work.

[PhaseOfPlay]

exposure to different methods from different cultures etc that you won’t get working under one genius

So which managerial geniuses did the following managers play under?

Mourinho
Houllier
Rafa
Villas Boas
Alberto Perreira
Sacchi
Perrin
Jardim
Wenger
Sampaoli
Slutsky
Sarri
Eriksson
Rodgers (I know, but I don't care )

All managers with various levels of success as coaches, with little to no playing careers to speak of.

Again, the issue is not Frank Lampard, the issue is the system in England that promotes ex-players to manager jobs based on their playing career, and ignores potential managers and coaches who didn't have as good a playing career, or any at all, but who have qualifications, experience, and innovation.

[zanwalk]

So which managerial geniuses did the following managers play under?

Mourinho
Houllier
Rafa
Villas Boas
Alberto Perreira
Sacchi
Perrin
Jardim
Wenger
Sampaoli
Slutsky
Sarri
Eriksson
Rodgers (I know, but I don't care )

All managers with various levels of success as coaches, with little to no playing careers to speak of.

Again, the issue is not Frank Lampard, the issue is the system in England that promotes ex-players to manager jobs based on their playing career, and ignores potential managers and coaches who didn't have as good a playing career, or any at all, but who have qualifications, experience, and innovation.

I respect what you say PoP, but I would like to point out also that if said 'ex star player' doesn't succeed in his job then he will quickly be replaced.

What I do find baffling is the bottom half of the EPL continuously recycling the same group of managers, surely it would be better to experiment occasionally? See West Brom last season for example, had they trusted Darren Moore a little sooner they would probably have survived.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

So which managerial geniuses did the following managers play under?

Mourinho
Houllier
Rafa
Villas Boas
Alberto Perreira
Sacchi
Perrin
Jardim
Wenger
Sampaoli
Slutsky
Sarri
Eriksson
Rodgers (I know, but I don't care )

All managers with various levels of success as coaches, with little to no playing careers to speak of.

Again, the issue is not Frank Lampard, the issue is the system in England that promotes ex-players to manager jobs based on their playing career, and ignores potential managers and coaches who didn't have as good a playing career, or any at all, but who have qualifications, experience, and innovation.

slutsky??

So how far do you want to go with your ‘ex players getting jobs’, do you do that for them starting out lower down the footballing pyramid or as youth coaches? Or are we better off with the pardews, Megsons and co being constantly recycled as they’re ‘more qualified?’ Or are you ignoring that many ex players can go into being a manager and can do well because they’re actually good and this comes out (and why someone like sol Campbell can’t get a job)

[PhaseOfPlay]

slutsky??

So how far do you want to go with your ‘ex players getting jobs’, do you do that for them starting out lower down the footballing pyramid or as youth coaches?

I know we generally don't get on, but are you actually reading what I've been saying? I've specifically said "Big name ex-players getting jobs with little to no experience based solely on their playing careers".

I'll give you a name that should probably have been in more consideration than Frank Lampard - Pep Ljinders. Who do you think, on paper, is a more deserving candidate for a Championship manager's job? Frank Lampard, or Pep Ljinders?

[afc tukrish]

I know we generally don't get on, but are you actually reading what I've been saying? I've specifically said "Big name ex-players getting jobs with little to no experience based solely on their playing careers".

I'll give you a name that should probably have been in more consideration than Frank Lampard - Pep Ljinders. Who do you think, on paper, is a more deserving candidate for a Championship manager's job? Frank Lampard, or Pep Ljinders?

That was dirty...

He's only going to start typing louder...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I know we generally don't get on, but are you actually reading what I've been saying? I've specifically said "Big name ex-players getting jobs with little to no experience based solely on their playing careers".

I'll give you a name that should probably have been in more consideration than Frank Lampard - Pep Ljinders. Who do you think, on paper, is a more deserving candidate for a Championship manager's job? Frank Lampard, or Pep Ljinders?

Pep just failed in Hollands 2nd tier.

Fact is Derby previously installed a guy who is/was one of the most highly thought of coaches in Europe and he failed,so they are now going another way.

[Gerry Attrick]

Pep just failed in Hollands 2nd tier.

Fact is Derby previously installed a guy who is/was one of the most highly thought of coaches in Europe and he failed,so they are now going another way.

This is it for me, Derby have given 3 well thought of coaches a chance and they've all come up short, so if any team has earned a free hit to try something a bit different it's surely them.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Pep just failed in Hollands 2nd tier.

Fact is Derby previously installed a guy who is/was one of the most highly thought of coaches in Europe and he failed,so they are now going another way.

Still missing the point I'm making. If you're an ex-England international, then it doesn't matter that you have little experience in coaching or management, you'll have MUCH better chances of getting jobs at the top two divisions than if you're an experienced coach at the lower levels who actually achieved things as a coach.

See: Tactics Tim Sherwood.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Still missing the point I'm making. If you're an ex-England international, then it doesn't matter that you have little experience in coaching or management, you'll have MUCH better chances of getting jobs at the top two divisions than if you're an experienced coach at the lower levels who actually achieved things as a coach.

See: Tactics Tim Sherwood.

People always bring nice but dim up,but you're right I am missing your point because not all good coaches have what it takes to go on to become good managers.

As for ex-England internationals (not sure why 'England International' has anything to do with it),they do have an advantage but they have to then impress during the interview & not be an arrogant prick like Sol Campbell.

[PhaseOfPlay]

People always bring nice but dim up,but you're right I am missing your point because not all good coaches have what it takes to go on to become good managers.

As for ex-England internationals (not sure why 'England International' has anything to do with it),they do have an advantage but they have to then impress during the interview & not be an arrogant prick like Sol Campbell.

And again, my point isn't "Frank Lampard". My point is that the English system is based almost entirely on WHO you've played for, not what you have done as a coach OR manager.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I know we generally don't get on, but are you actually reading what I've been saying? I've specifically said "Big name ex-players getting jobs with little to no experience based solely on their playing careers".

I'll give you a name that should probably have been in more consideration than Frank Lampard - Pep Ljinders. Who do you think, on paper, is a more deserving candidate for a Championship manager's job? Frank Lampard, or Pep Ljinders?

pep lindjers who failed recently in the second tier of Dutch football?? Not exactly a good example here

Still missing the point I'm making. If you're an ex-England international, then it doesn't matter that you have little experience in coaching or management, you'll have MUCH better chances of getting jobs at the top two divisions than if you're an experienced coach at the lower levels who actually achieved things as a coach.

Have you not thought that them being ex England internationals makes them stand out a lot more than someone who has never played or not to a high level, because they’ve actually done the job and have had leadership roles in their club sides?

Or that they have quite a nice contacts book that can help that club progress far more quickly than easier than a coach who came up through the ranks, I mean lampard can call on chelsea and city from his playing career and man united from his old boss to name three who he can get good players from at a good deal? Or it could well be that he interviews far better and is more knowledgeable about the game than these great ‘coaches’, and if he fucks up guess what he’s the Essex Gary neville, if he does well derby have done brilliantly

[Lush is the best medicine...]

As for ex-England internationals (not sure why 'England International' has anything to do with it),they do have an advantage but they have to then impress during the interview & not be an arrogant prick like Sol Campbell.

ex England players, esp the likes of gerrard and lampard are probably seen as the equivalent of Harvard grads with a first whereas the good coaches are the guys who went to a Russell group uni with a 2.1 (and for the record I’m in that second group in the real world)

[leroy]

plus they have experience of actually playing the game for a long time in senior roles in the squad under top managers who they will have learnt from unlike a lot of coaches lower down the pole who’ve just done coaching

I've worked for a successful media company for over a decade under various management teams but that doesn't mean they should take the risk and make me CEO next time a job becomes available no matter how well I interview or how well known I am.  I'm simply not qualified for the job.  If they were stupid enough to do it and I was a raging success it doesn't mean they made a good choice - it means they got lucky.

[The North Bank]

I've worked for a successful media company for over a decade under various management teams but that doesn't mean they should take the risk and make me CEO next time a job becomes available no matter how well I interview or how well known I am.  I'm simply not qualified for the job.  If they were stupid enough to do it and I was a raging success it doesn't mean they made a good choice - it means they got lucky.

Derby have tried every route, the experienced ex england manager, the assistant to Ancelotti with CL winning experience at Real Madrid, the son of the ex managerial great who did his education in the lower leagues, none of them got the team promoted. Why not try the england golden boy.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Derby have tried every route, the experienced ex england manager, the assistant to Ancelotti with CL winning experience at Real Madrid, the son of the ex managerial great who did his education in the lower leagues, none of them got the team promoted. Why not try the england golden boy.

Or doing what actually almost ALWAYS works...

Recruit better players

[leroy]

Derby have tried every route, the experienced ex england manager, the assistant to Ancelotti with CL winning experience at Real Madrid, the son of the ex managerial great who did his education in the lower leagues, none of them got the team promoted. Why not try the england golden boy.

The same reason that I don't start practicing home dentistry when I'm not happy with the last two I've been to.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Or doing what actually almost ALWAYS works...

Recruit better players

which they have a better chance of doing now the manager has a nice contacts book?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I've worked for a successful media company for over a decade under various management teams but that doesn't mean they should take the risk and make me CEO next time a job becomes available no matter how well I interview or how well known I am.  I'm simply not qualified for the job.  If they were stupid enough to do it and I was a raging success it doesn't mean they made a good choice - it means they got lucky.

not necessarily a lucky thing as some people are capable of making big jumps like that and others aren’t and I’d wager lampard is more likely to be in the former than the latter, I mean it’s not like they gave the job to Michael Owen or sol Campbell is it? Some can put themselves across well in interviews and can command the respect of the players, the latter being key and I’m pretty sure it was obvious mcclaren at the least didn’t have that

[Upinsmoke]

I'm pretty much neutral here. I'm sure there are managers/coaches who have spent longer working there way up through coaching, obviously Lampard afaik has no coaching experience. At the same time he's worked under some of the most successful coaches in recent times, so he might be able to tap into them methods. It does seem that being a pundit is a gateway to management however.

[leroy]

not necessarily a lucky thing as some people are capable of making big jumps like that and others aren’t and I’d wager lampard is more likely to be in the former than the latter, I mean it’s not like they gave the job to Michael Owen or sol Campbell is it? Some can put themselves across well in interviews and can command the respect of the players, the latter being key and I’m pretty sure it was obvious mcclaren at the least didn’t have that

That's still just luck of the draw that you've got that one in a hundred/thousand/million who actually have the substance to back up the arrogance and/or talk.

 Look I don't know enough about what Lampard has been doing recently to really have an informed opinion, I'm just talking generally about hiring unqualified people for jobs.  Yeah sometimes you find that maverick with different ideas who's laughed out of other places, sometimes you find someone who would have succeeded regardless of where they started.  The vast majority of the time though you'll find people who are out of their depth and fail.  That can be bad for everyone involved.

[zanwalk]

That's still just luck of the draw that you've got that one in a hundred/thousand/million who actually have the substance to back up the arrogance and/or talk.

 Look I don't know enough about what Lampard has been doing recently to really have an informed opinion, I'm just talking generally about hiring unqualified people for jobs.  Yeah sometimes you find that maverick with different ideas who's laughed out of other places, sometimes you find someone who would have succeeded regardless of where they started.  The vast majority of the time though you'll find people who are out of their depth and fail.  That can be bad for everyone involved.

But the point in this discussion surely isn't that Lampard isn't 'qualified', he's done his coaching courses, the only thing he hasn't got is experience, and he'll very soon find out if he's got what it takes to succeed in management, and if he fails he will be out of the door pretty sharpish.

I'm looking forward to seeing both Lampard and Gerrard in management this season, and I hope they both succeed.

[Statto Red]

I don't mind the appointment, at least is not one of the tiresome lazy appointments on the Managerial merry go round, only problem is it's Derby, i still expect them to choke come next February/March.

[cissesbeard]

good luck to him.
an excellent player that made the most of his talents, I hope it goes well for him

[El Lobo]

But the point in this discussion surely isn't that Lampard isn't 'qualified', he's done his coaching courses, the only thing he hasn't got is experience, and he'll very soon find out if he's got what it takes to succeed in management, and if he fails he will be out of the door pretty sharpish.

I'm looking forward to seeing both Lampard and Gerrard in management this season, and I hope they both succeed.

I thought the point was that he hasn’t even coached...?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I thought the point was that he hasn’t even coached...?

think he’s done some at Chelsea’s academy, but Morris is his #2 and he’s very well thought of and done well there

[zanwalk]

think he’s done some at Chelsea’s academy, but Morris is his #2 and he’s very well thought of and done well there

That is what I believe as well.

[The North Bank]

 Not every top player goes on to become a failure as manager. Being a high profile player should not disqualify him from becoming a manger afterwards.
I’d sooner see lampard get a chance than Pards, Lambert, the big SAM or Moysie.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The same reason that I don't start practicing home dentistry when I'm not happy with the last two I've been to.

Analogy Fail

You are talking like Lampard isn't a special case in that he has been in and around the professional game since the moment he popped into this world.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Derby have the right man there to coach them on 5 yard passes left and right, shooting on sight FROM ANYWHERE, penalties, not to mention deflections.

[Red-Soldier]

Who gives a f*ck if he's got any experience or not.  Let's see how he gets on.

[Gerry Attrick]

Who gives a f*ck if he's got any experience or not.  Let's see how he gets on.

Pretty brave decision to take this job on. They've fell short time after time and there's probably going to be spending cut backs this summer. He certainly isn't taking the easy option.

[Djozer]

Pretty brave decision to take this job on. They've fell short time after time and there's probably going to be spending cut backs this summer. He certainly isn't taking the easy option.

aye, fair play to him. Weirdly hope he does well there. I've always quite liked Lampard mostly - he seemed the only one of that Mourinho Chelsea side who wasn't a complete prick. Comes across quite well as a pundit too, and is obviously pretty smart. It'll be an interesting one to follow, anyway.

[Alf]

Not every top player goes on to become a failure as manager. Being a high profile player should not disqualify him from becoming a manger afterwards.
I’d sooner see lampard get a chance than Pards, Lambert, the big SAM or Moysie.

Amen to that, them 4 are no friends of football. It's good to see somebody new get their chance.

[vagabond]

Who gives a f*ck if he's got any experience or not.  Let's see how he gets on.

There are thousands of coaches up and down the country that spend countless hours honing their skills and developing their expertise that care. This philistinism about a complex and sophisticated job is just bizarre, as if genuine expertise and mastery of the skills involved is secondary to the celebrity front man.