Topic: Survivors: Talk about it, share it, we'll try to help

[Ozzie Red]

I was in the crush in the middle section of Leppings Lane, and I live with the guilt of having survived. I had to brace and force myself to go to a friends funeral, it was no time to be selfish. Yesterday, during Cameron's speech, was the first time I have been able to shed a tear. I don't know why, it just happened, not even sure I feel any better, but my feelings right now, and I'll be honest, is, I wan't all of them brought to justice, found guilty and sentenced to do some time, where they can sit and think every minute of every day about how they cynically betrayed of other humans, just so public opinion would look favourably on them, they are utter scum.

I am so happy for the families, the light at the end of that tunnel seems to be a lot closer and brighter and may be some closure may be at hand.

YNWA -Justice for the 96

[StevenLFC]

I was in the crush in the middle section of Leppings Lane, and I live with the guilt of having survived. I had to brace and force myself to go to a friends funeral, it was no time to be selfish. Yesterday, during Cameron's speech, was the first time I have been able to shed a tear. I don't know why, it just happened, not even sure I feel any better, but my feelings right now, and I'll be honest, is, I wan't all of them brought to justice, found guilty and sentenced to do some time, where they can sit and think every minute of every day about how they cynically betrayed of other humans, just so public opinion would look favourably on them, they are utter scum.

I am so happy for the families, the light at the end of that tunnel seems to be a lot closer and brighter and may be some closure may be at hand.

YNWA -Justice for the 96

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

[Rafa_La]

I try not to dramatise my things, my experiences. I was there, thats all. I cant sleep tonight. But today for the fisrt time in a long time I dont feel quite so guilty.
JFT96

Then more days to you to feel better..... better because you were never ever never fcking guilty of a thing. Except being a Liverpool supporter.
No guilt in that.
YNWA

[Ozzie Red]

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks for that StevenLFC, but may be you misunderstand, I knew all along it wasn't the fans fault but others, it's more a feeling as to why I escaped?? the guilt is why "I survived" when so many other innocents lost their lives, but it is deeper than that.

Do you know my biggest regret during the crush was pushing people just to try and get a breath --- my thoughts after and to this day are, was that the cause of someone else die-ing, may be not next to me, but, did the pushing I did, for a gap to expand my chest to get some air, did it cause someone else to die, crazy I know, this may be too personal, but I distinctly remember thinking (my 1st wife was pregnant) and I thought shit I am not ever gonna see them, touch them, smell them, love them, that's when , I believe  I gained enough strength and determination to fight/survive, that I was not gonna peg out like this, so I made some room to breathe for a second or two, this is where the guilt comes from, did making that room, (pushing other people) cause someone to die???.

Having been in a situation like this, I truly believe "survivors guilt" is about something that was thought about in that moment of stress, where somebody becomes selfish and thinks about themselves/or somebody very important to them ---- I hope this makes sense?

And do you know the biggest kicker is, when I do get to a telephone, to call home, to tell her I am okay (I was at Heysel as well and didn't phone and got down the banks something rotten) the missus is in hospital having a frigging miscarriage, then the brain go's into overdrive, it's your fault, the stress watching on TV, If not that then it's your fault for pushing and causing somebody else to die, just to even up the score.

Then when you get home you feel that what you went through is secondary to what your family have gone through, then the guilt kicks in again, because you feel your being selfish by needing to tell/talk to somebody about your experience, but you don't because it is less important to what is going on -- so yeah it was a shit weekend.

Sorry I can't believe I've just done that, and apologies for this selfish diatribe especially on a forum where I do not know anybody, shit here comes the guilt again ---I am laying my woes on some poor innocents again, you can't win, all totally irrational I know, but believe me it makes sense from where I am.

[StevenLFC]

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks for that StevenLFC, but may be you misunderstand, I knew all along it wasn't the fans fault but others, it's more a feeling as to why I escaped?? the guilt is why "I survived" when so many other innocents lost their lives, but it is deeper than that.

Do you know my biggest regret during the crush was pushing people just to try and get a breath --- my thoughts after and to this day are, was that the cause of someone else die-ing, may be not next to me, but, did the pushing I did, for a gap to expand my chest to get some air, did it cause someone else to die, crazy I know, this may be too personal, but I distinctly remember thinking (my 1st wife was pregnant) and I thought shit I am not ever gonna see them, touch them, smell them, love them, that's when , I believe  I gained enough strength and determination to fight/survive, that I was not gonna peg out like this, so I made some room to breathe for a second or two, this is where the guilt comes from, did making that room, (pushing other people) cause someone to die???.

Having been in a situation like this, I truly believe "survivors guilt" is about something that was thought about in that moment of stress, where somebody becomes selfish and thinks about themselves/or somebody very important to them ---- I hope this makes sense?

And do you know the biggest kicker is, when I do get to a telephone, to call home, to tell her I am okay (I was at Heysel as well and didn't phone and got down the banks something rotten) the missus is in hospital having a frigging miscarriage, then the brain go's into overdrive, it's your fault, the stress watching on TV, If not that then it's your fault for pushing and causing somebody else to die, just to even up the score.

Then when you get home you feel that what you went through is secondary to what your family have gone through, then the guilt kicks in again, because you feel your being selfish by needing to tell/talk to somebody about your experience, but you don't because it is less important to what is going on -- so yeah it was a shit weekend.

Sorry I can't believe I've just done that, and apologies for this selfish diatribe especially on a forum where I do not know anybody, shit here comes the guilt again ---I am laying my woes on some poor innocents again, you can't win, all totally irrational I know, but believe me it makes sense from where I am.

I'm in bits reading that mate. Survivors guilt is a recognised psychological condition, have you ever though about counselling, support groups or something similar? You fighting for your life is not something to feel guilty for. You fought to see your family & friends again. You and your actions didn't cause a single person to die that day, the failings of the FA, Sheffield Wednesday and the Police did. Never feel bad about sharing your pain, you have not been at all selfish and what you say makes complete sense pal. There are many people willing to listen and help you. Here on RAWK, and in Liverpool as a whole You'll Never Walk Alone.

[Garioc]

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks for that StevenLFC, but may be you misunderstand, I knew all along it wasn't the fans fault but others, it's more a feeling as to why I escaped?? the guilt is why "I survived" when so many other innocents lost their lives, but it is deeper than that.

Do you know my biggest regret during the crush was pushing people just to try and get a breath --- my thoughts after and to this day are, was that the cause of someone else die-ing, may be not next to me, but, did the pushing I did, for a gap to expand my chest to get some air, did it cause someone else to die, crazy I know, this may be too personal, but I distinctly remember thinking (my 1st wife was pregnant) and I thought shit I am not ever gonna see them, touch them, smell them, love them, that's when , I believe  I gained enough strength and determination to fight/survive, that I was not gonna peg out like this, so I made some room to breathe for a second or two, this is where the guilt comes from, did making that room, (pushing other people) cause someone to die???.

Having been in a situation like this, I truly believe "survivors guilt" is about something that was thought about in that moment of stress, where somebody becomes selfish and thinks about themselves/or somebody very important to them ---- I hope this makes sense?

And do you know the biggest kicker is, when I do get to a telephone, to call home, to tell her I am okay (I was at Heysel as well and didn't phone and got down the banks something rotten) the missus is in hospital having a frigging miscarriage, then the brain go's into overdrive, it's your fault, the stress watching on TV, If not that then it's your fault for pushing and causing somebody else to die, just to even up the score.

Then when you get home you feel that what you went through is secondary to what your family have gone through, then the guilt kicks in again, because you feel your being selfish by needing to tell/talk to somebody about your experience, but you don't because it is less important to what is going on -- so yeah it was a shit weekend.

Sorry I can't believe I've just done that, and apologies for this selfish diatribe especially on a forum where I do not know anybody, shit here comes the guilt again ---I am laying my woes on some poor innocents again, you can't win, all totally irrational I know, but believe me it makes sense from where I am.

Mate, read the first line of your post. It applies to you also. I am honoured that you have shared your story with me as I am honoured and humbled to read the stories of others on this thread.

[Ozzie Red]

Thanks again StevenLFC, didn't think I should trouble people with my problems in relation to counselling, there's far more people more deserving of their time, I didn't lose any family. I just thought I could unload here in this forum with like minded people, and sort of, anonymously talk, I actually feel a bit embarrassed, even though I am thousands of miles away, sat at a keyboard, sad to say but I would have loved to be around yesterday with people who actually get it and people who where there.

Another funny but sad thing was I had new Addidas Samba trainers on when I went to the game, when I got pulled out, it was that tight they bloody well came off.  I actually tried to go back to see if I could find them!!! another silly and stupid even-ing up of the score I thought, absolutely stupid in the scheme of things, but like I say the mind does some funny stuff.

The reason for my diatribe was to try and explain in the most honest way possible,  the total nonsensical way the mind works, in relation to survivors guilt,  hopefully it sort of makes some logical sense and resonates with people of a similar mindset.

[the invisible man]

Thanks again StevenLFC, didn't think I should trouble people with my problems in relation to counselling, there's far more people more deserving of their time, I didn't lose any family. I just thought I could unload here in this forum with like minded people, and sort of, anonymously talk, I actually feel a bit embarrassed, even though I am thousands of miles away, sat at a keyboard, sad to say but I would have loved to be around yesterday with people who actually get it and people who where there.

Another funny but sad thing was I had new Addidas Samba trainers on when I went to the game, when I got pulled out, it was that tight they bloody well came off.  I actually tried to go back to see if I could find them!!! another silly and stupid even-ing up of the score I thought, absolutely stupid in the scheme of things, but like I say the mind does some funny stuff.

The reason for my diatribe was to try and explain in the most honest way possible,  the total nonsensical way the mind works, in relation to survivors guilt,  hopefully it sort of makes some logical sense and resonates with people of a similar mindset.

great to hear that you are able to share your feelings mate, no matter how serious or trivial you might think.... well done... ynwa

[the invisible man]

 

Yesterday's news is now just history...

tears of joy
tears of sorrow
the journey continues
not today but tomorrow...

today is the day when the truth was finally told
our resolve was solid, our nerve was bold
we knew all along what the truth really was
but now it has been confirmed that they lied
by the Hillsborough Panels Report
in black n white, cannot be denied...

the tears of joy are for Anne and her son
who has fought the good fight and has won
the right to have a new Inquest for Kevin and the rest
it's time to put the Government to the ultimate test..

there has been much written in the past 24 hours
a lot of apologies and excuses from all those in power
but why has it taken them 23 years to admit
that they told lies and covered up all sorts of shit...

the tears of sorrow are for our 96 mates
who have been watching over us from the memorial near Bill Shankly Gates
its time now for action to continue the fight
to see real justice to shine the red light...

and so, as one chapter ends, another begins
the Prime Minister has promised some swift action
the journey continues for you and for me
yesterdays news, is now history...

or tomorrows chip paper...

johnlemmon...@

[Garioc]

I wrote this a while back but thought it might be worth posting again in here...

Flames Burning

A son left his mother
To follow his reds,
He never came home
A mother in shreds.
In the law she trusted
In the system she believed,
But when reports were issued
Her trust was deceived.

Justice and truth
A simple request,
Two flames burning
On the Liverpool crest.

A mother a voter
A woman with rights,
Thousands of voices
Keeps her son’s flame alight.
A unit, a movement
A mass of support,
Will help get this mother
Her one day in court.

Justice and truth
A simple request,
Two flames burning
On the Liverpool crest.

She battles she fights
The lies and the sins,
Appalled by the actions
The corruption within.
The reports and the answers
The facts were misplaced,
His memory tainted
By a system disgraced.

Justice and truth
A simple request,
Two flames burning
On the Liverpool crest.

But there’s light and there’s hope
The people have spoken,
Stand up and listen
The silence is broken.
Thousands of voices
That will never condone,
A call to the 96
You’ll never walk alone.

Justice and truth
A simple request,
Two flames burning
On the Liverpool crest.

[scouse neapolitan]

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks for that StevenLFC, but may be you misunderstand, I knew all along it wasn't the fans fault but others, it's more a feeling as to why I escaped?? the guilt is why "I survived" when so many other innocents lost their lives, but it is deeper than that.

Do you know my biggest regret during the crush was pushing people just to try and get a breath --- my thoughts after and to this day are, was that the cause of someone else die-ing, may be not next to me, but, did the pushing I did, for a gap to expand my chest to get some air, did it cause someone else to die, crazy I know, this may be too personal, but I distinctly remember thinking (my 1st wife was pregnant) and I thought shit I am not ever gonna see them, touch them, smell them, love them, that's when , I believe  I gained enough strength and determination to fight/survive, that I was not gonna peg out like this, so I made some room to breathe for a second or two, this is where the guilt comes from, did making that room, (pushing other people) cause someone to die???.

Having been in a situation like this, I truly believe "survivors guilt" is about something that was thought about in that moment of stress, where somebody becomes selfish and thinks about themselves/or somebody very important to them ---- I hope this makes sense?

And do you know the biggest kicker is, when I do get to a telephone, to call home, to tell her I am okay (I was at Heysel as well and didn't phone and got down the banks something rotten) the missus is in hospital having a frigging miscarriage, then the brain go's into overdrive, it's your fault, the stress watching on TV, If not that then it's your fault for pushing and causing somebody else to die, just to even up the score.

Then when you get home you feel that what you went through is secondary to what your family have gone through, then the guilt kicks in again, because you feel your being selfish by needing to tell/talk to somebody about your experience, but you don't because it is less important to what is going on -- so yeah it was a shit weekend.

Sorry I can't believe I've just done that, and apologies for this selfish diatribe especially on a forum where I do not know anybody, shit here comes the guilt again ---I am laying my woes on some poor innocents again, you can't win, all totally irrational I know, but believe me it makes sense from where I am.

Extremely powerful reading and articulately put by a survivor who has opened up to people who will understand him....As Steven LFC said, counselling may be a good idea for you Ozzie Red mate...... and make no mistake, your survival instinct is nothing to be ashamed about.
Your suffering and the suffering of the survivors and their families is the reason that this battle has never wained.....and as invariably happens in life, the truth always comes out in the end...........YNWA

[paulkappa]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

[MichaelA]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

We had a long debate over the last few days about closing the site to new registrations, as we were aware of a planned 'invasion' of individuals with malign intent. We decided we owed it to our own fans, our own people, the opportunity to register and share their stories, share their grief, and maybe begin to share the feeling that justice will be served on those that let us down 23 years ago. I approved your account about an hour ago, and your post just vindicated our decision. Welcome to RAWK. Your post moved me to tears, I really hope you're feeling a little better for sharing your story with fellow fans who have an inkling for what you went through.

[B0151?]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

thanks for sharing that mate, got goosebumps reading it. so much respect to the survivors. no-one should have to see or experience anything like that.

this is why this football club needs justice, the families of those who weren't fortunate to make it obviously, but also for the survivors who have had to deal with so much shit after experiencing something so life-changing. so many victims.

ynwa

[24/7]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

Just brilliant.....read it! Thanks for posting and welcome.

[No666]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

Thank you.

[Slick_Beef]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

So moving, thank you for sharing.

[royhendo]

Thank you for posting that mate.

[Craig67]

Another first time poster - been reading RAWK for years now, but thought I never really had anything to say that hadnt already been said.

Anyway - Ive never talked about April 15th before, but with the release of the HIP report coming up, and knowing about this thread, I thought "this might be the time", so I registered.

Then came the actual report on the yesterday - jesus. Was all over the place yesterday. Broke down - again, last night. But - I talked to my wife about it. Never done it before. She's been great over the years - the only one thats just understood. Especially around the anniversiry each year.

Then, reading some of the recent posts on here..... my story is irrelevent compared to many, so still didn't post. Then I thought - I'm just bottling it now.....just write it out.

Three of us went, on the train - got there nice and early. Dunno exactly what time, but it was early. As soon as we reached the station, we were put on a bus and taken to the ground. Didn't fancy trying to find a pub, so went into the ground - must have been about 1.30 or so.

Went down the tunnel and were stood in pen 4. Just chatted as the usual build up of the crowd happened. As it started to get really busy, one of my mates said he was off nearer the front - didn't like the packed crowd - he usually stood at the side of the kop with his dad.

When the build up of pressure started - I couldn't understand what was going on..... it always subsides so you can get your breath, recover, but it just kept coming and coming. No control over which way I was facing, moving, arms going numb - that feeling of panic. Kept telling myself, dont fucking panic or you'll make it worse. No idea where my other mate was at this point.

Remember Beardsley hitting the bar - my face was facing sort of side on the pitch, but body the other way.....even at the time, I thought "thank fuck that didn't go in".

I'll never get over the police at the front of the pens - shoputing "get back, get back" as they were physically stopping people escaping. "Get back"...Get back fucking where? They must have had a great view to see the place was rammed and there was nowhere to go.

At one point I could feel something beneath my feet....someone, not something. I was screaming "theres someone down there"....with the people around me we managed to make some space (no idea how) and dragged him up. At that point I was sent in a different direction towards the sides. Remember him just being completely drained of colour. I have no idea if he was alive or not.

I saw the mate who went to the front - he got out through the gate thas was opened. Eventually I found myself at the fence to the left - some lads were helping people over, and they helped me over. Stumbled down that gap between the two pens - couldnt believe the space in the pen to the left.

The first face I saw was my other mate - all three of us got out OK. Next, a copper comes up to us and says "get off the pitch lads".....so what did we do - we did as we were told. Went up in the stand and watched the fans help, while the police formed a line across the pitch. and just watched. But then - so did I.

Despite everything that had just happened, I just couldn't accept ther magnitude. I mean, even when the reports start filtering through about fatalities. I knew it was true....but at the same time, it couldnt be true, could it. I mean - I don't know what I mean.

I have no idea how we got back to the train station - but when we did, we thought, jesus, we could do with a drink. So we bought 4 cans each from an offy on some estate near the station. Then the police took them off us at the train station.

3 of us went, 3 of use made it home. In all, I knew about 7 people that went that day - and all made it out unscathed. Physically, anyway.

What happened to me was inconsiquential compared to so many, many others.......but I still hurts like fuck. A knot in my stomach that gets tichter and tighter. Some times the tears flow. Some times they don't. Will it ever change - I don't know. But after yesterday, it might. 

[24/7]

Welcome, Craig, and thanks for posting your story. It seems that this vindication and exoneration is really helping people speak up. I really hope that your disclosure here brings you comfort. You will find many people here experienced the same or similar and you are in good hands here.

[horne]

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks for that StevenLFC, but may be you misunderstand, I knew all along it wasn't the fans fault but others, it's more a feeling as to why I escaped?? the guilt is why "I survived" when so many other innocents lost their lives, but it is deeper than that.

Do you know my biggest regret during the crush was pushing people just to try and get a breath --- my thoughts after and to this day are, was that the cause of someone else die-ing, may be not next to me, but, did the pushing I did, for a gap to expand my chest to get some air, did it cause someone else to die, crazy I know, this may be too personal, but I distinctly remember thinking (my 1st wife was pregnant) and I thought shit I am not ever gonna see them, touch them, smell them, love them, that's when , I believe  I gained enough strength and determination to fight/survive, that I was not gonna peg out like this, so I made some room to breathe for a second or two, this is where the guilt comes from, did making that room, (pushing other people) cause someone to die???.

Having been in a situation like this, I truly believe "survivors guilt" is about something that was thought about in that moment of stress, where somebody becomes selfish and thinks about themselves/or somebody very important to them ---- I hope this makes sense?

And do you know the biggest kicker is, when I do get to a telephone, to call home, to tell her I am okay (I was at Heysel as well and didn't phone and got down the banks something rotten) the missus is in hospital having a frigging miscarriage, then the brain go's into overdrive, it's your fault, the stress watching on TV, If not that then it's your fault for pushing and causing somebody else to die, just to even up the score.

Then when you get home you feel that what you went through is secondary to what your family have gone through, then the guilt kicks in again, because you feel your being selfish by needing to tell/talk to somebody about your experience, but you don't because it is less important to what is going on -- so yeah it was a shit weekend.

Sorry I can't believe I've just done that, and apologies for this selfish diatribe especially on a forum where I do not know anybody, shit here comes the guilt again ---I am laying my woes on some poor innocents again, you can't win, all totally irrational I know, but believe me it makes sense from where I am.

its likely that so many others got that same gulp of air that kept you alive too...from that little movement...

[24/7]

Ozzie Red......

Sheila Coleman mentioned yesterday that she believed that the council in Liverpool was apparently funding counselling for survivors who are suffering from so-called "survivor guilt". It's a reasonably common phenomenon in such circumstances and it sounds to me like you are showing classic signs of it (mitigation, apologies, etc).

Your username suggests you might be nowhere near Libpool, so instead have you sought professional help to deal with the guilt you describe? If not, please do. If you have, then good, I really hope you can let that guilt go soon.

Remember one thing - you should not feel guilty for surviving a Disaster that was caused by the people who were meant to protect you. You didn't cause people's deaths, SYP did. The guilt belongs there. The HIP report categorically, definitively, irrefutably exonerates you.

[Witherkay]

The report published yesterday confirmed what we already knew pal, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Thanks for that StevenLFC, but may be you misunderstand, I knew all along it wasn't the fans fault but others, it's more a feeling as to why I escaped?? the guilt is why "I survived" when so many other innocents lost their lives, but it is deeper than that.

Do you know my biggest regret during the crush was pushing people just to try and get a breath --- my thoughts after and to this day are, was that the cause of someone else die-ing, may be not next to me, but, did the pushing I did, for a gap to expand my chest to get some air, did it cause someone else to die, crazy I know, this may be too personal, but I distinctly remember thinking (my 1st wife was pregnant) and I thought shit I am not ever gonna see them, touch them, smell them, love them, that's when , I believe  I gained enough strength and determination to fight/survive, that I was not gonna peg out like this, so I made some room to breathe for a second or two, this is where the guilt comes from, did making that room, (pushing other people) cause someone to die???.

Having been in a situation like this, I truly believe "survivors guilt" is about something that was thought about in that moment of stress, where somebody becomes selfish and thinks about themselves/or somebody very important to them ---- I hope this makes sense?

And do you know the biggest kicker is, when I do get to a telephone, to call home, to tell her I am okay (I was at Heysel as well and didn't phone and got down the banks something rotten) the missus is in hospital having a frigging miscarriage, then the brain go's into overdrive, it's your fault, the stress watching on TV, If not that then it's your fault for pushing and causing somebody else to die, just to even up the score.

Then when you get home you feel that what you went through is secondary to what your family have gone through, then the guilt kicks in again, because you feel your being selfish by needing to tell/talk to somebody about your experience, but you don't because it is less important to what is going on -- so yeah it was a shit weekend.

Sorry I can't believe I've just done that, and apologies for this selfish diatribe especially on a forum where I do not know anybody, shit here comes the guilt again ---I am laying my woes on some poor innocents again, you can't win, all totally irrational I know, but believe me it makes sense from where I am.

Mate, I think I must have been by you. I completely feel the same. I was a fairly big 17 year old, 6'2'' and obviously better placed than others to look after myself. I remember being lifted off my feet, moving forward then suddenly found something hard to push against. I did, with all the strength I had and worked my way back up the terrace. It turns out what I had pushed on was the collapsed barrier. A few feet either side and I would have missed it. I was that close to the front.

I cannot help thinking that my getting back put someone else, or more than one person, in exactly the same position I had been in - but they were not as lucky. That's the guilt.

Coming back out the tunnel, people crying for help, trying to get Ambulance men to help but they just shake their head. That is the guilt, not being able to help. (More proof the 15 minute cut off was wrong.)

Getting back to the coach and having to travel out of Sheffield to find a public phone box that worked to phone home. Finally got through at 4.30. My sister answered because my Dad was in pieces, ill with worry after pacing the house for two hours and lying to my mum about what part of the ground I was in. No parent should have to go through that. That's guilt - just for going a footie match.

Then finally getting home - in my case Woodside - getting off the coaches and seeing the waiting parents. Obviously the ones who had not heard, or would never hear, from their kids. The look on their faces as each coach comes in and their child doesn't get off. The look as each person gets off and they don't recognise them and their chances reduce that little bit more. I thought I could see hate - hate that I was a lucky one - hate that me getting out had somehow reduced their childs chances. I know now, being a parent myself, it was not hate, just pure, gut wrenching fear. Fear that the thing they most dreaded just got that little bit closer.

For over twenty years I have felt like that. I think I now know better, but try telling that to the 17 year old kid in the middle of the night who lives throught it all again who does not seem to know it.

I can go days, weeks, months even sometimes, without it. But all it takes is one flash of a photo. One ill thought out comment by someone who doesn't know what they are on about, and it comes back. I think each time it comes back it is a little bit less, but when you start at the top of a mountain of guilt, one or two steps downward still leaves you with a bloody long way to go.

Yes, I now rationally it was not my fault. But rationality does not always come into it.

[El Festino]

Sorry for posting here again. I wasn't there. This thread breaks my heart. Reading posts about you feeling guilty brings me to tears. You should never feel guilty. I will never know what you have been through, what you are going through and what you will go through.  But you have done nothing wrong. I feel sick about what has come out over the last two days. But it what we have known all along. 

The admiration i have for families, friends, relatives and you has no bounds. People who were there and survived can be forgotten. I hope someday you can get peace.

You will never walk alone. I hope justice, which each person will think is different, is delivered.

[lionel_messias]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

I took some time to read this. I cannot really express my feelings this week, I'm not from Liverpool but these good people who lost their
lives are just like me. My respect to their families. JFT96.

It has been a shattering week, with justice released but memories of a terrible day with it; never to be forgotten.

[macca888]

I hope it's ok to put this here, but it's just something I wanted to share and didn't know where else to put it, so please bear with me. If any of the mods want to move it or delete it that's fine too.

My next door neighbour, Jimmy, is a cracking bloke. Up until a few years ago, he was a season ticket holder at Liverpool and Everton. He was born a blue nose but his best mate was a red. Luckily for him, his dad had a business that was doing quite well, so he had season tickets for both clubs, just so he could go to the match every week with his mate. Over the course of 40 odd years or so, he grew to love Liverpool and if anyone had asked him who he supported, he'd say "Reds and blues, and I hope it's a draw at the derby." He's paid his dues to our club; followed us in Europe, he lost a family friend at Hillsborough, donated loads, attended the Memorial services and did whatever he could.

Anyway, over the last few years, he's been developing Alzheimer's. To be honest, I never really understood how Alzheimer's worked. I just thought it was like an eraser, rubbing out time backwards. Sort of you couldn't remember what you had for tea last night, but could remember what you had last week. As it progressed, you couldn't remember what had happened any time in the last year, but you could remember what happened a couple of years back. And on and on it went until you were left with a blank slate almost. Jeez, was I wrong. It doesn't work anything like that. My heart goes out to anyone suffering with this or anyone who has a family member with it. It's like certain parts of his life are missing at random, and in other parts, there's a fog over them. Big chunks are missing in some places like literally a house he lived in for 15 years is missing, and certain parts of others things are just lost to him like he can sense it, but can't make out the fine details. Some days he thinks Emlyn is still the captain and other days he knows it's Gerrard.

So what I've been doing for a while now is having a coffee with him most nights and trying to get him talking about his memories, especially trying to help in any way I can to keep his brain active and stretch him a bit. I've found that if he's talking about something I know enough about, he'll work really hard to get the foggy details clear, and it sometimes works. This is the bit though that has crippled me this week to be honest. For some reason, he started talking about football tragedies. Now I knew that he was a Hillsborough survivor, but the ony tragedy he was talking about was Ibrox. I can't explain to you how sickening the feeling is when you can see the wheels turning in someone's eyes trying to latch on to a memory but not being able to grasp hold.

So I thought the best thing to do was bring up Hillsborough and hope it would help him to connect the dots in his mind. Well, 1988, he could almost give me every last detail of the game and everything else on the day. But 1989 just wouldn't come to him at all. It was really hard not to push him to try and remember, because when it just won't come to him, he gets really frustrated. So I tried leading him to it as gently as possible. Eventually, the penny started dropping and I could see the relief on his face. It's hard to say it without sounding condescending, but what I've noticed is when it happens, I get that look off him, the sort of look a baby gives you when they've clapped their hands or put the spoon in their own mouth; like they're pleased as punch and want you to be proud of them. I hope that doesn't offend anyone but it's the closest honest description I can give.

As we started talking about his memories of Hillsborough though, I've got to tell you that the upset washed over me like a wave. Not for me, but for him. He said "How the hell can anyone justify losing 35 lives?"  I said to him "Jim, it wasn't 35 mate. It was 96. You know the Eternal Flame memorial you've seen it before loads. You know the song you've sang plenty of times "Justice For The 96" But he couldn't remember. As much as I tried, I could see him looking at me disbelievingly. And the reason that he thinks only 35 died is because of this fucking God forsaken disease he's got. His day ends somewhere on the coach ride home, listening to whatever the radio station the driver had on confirming that the death toll was currently at 35. Even though he remembers lots of days after that, somewhere in his head, a switch has been thrown that will only allow him to associate that day with 35 peope dying.

I think the reason I wanted to share this with you all is because even if tomorrow was the 12th of September, Jim still wouldn't see justice for 61 of our lost brothers and sisters, because he doesn't know they're not here. And it got me thinking of all the families and friends, the survivors, and Liverpool FC family, of all those we've lost who wil never know when we finally get the justice we deserve. The most important thing for me is justice for our 96 families. But we also deserve justice for all our survivors and those who fought for it and won't be here when we finaly get it, peope like our own great Shanklyboy, and people who won't understand when we get it like Jimmy. Jimmy is a Hillsborough survivor and a good man, but one day soon he won't even remember that he survived or what we lost. I just hope that our fight for justice is won while there is at least some spark of recognition in his eyes. I would love to be able to tell him and have it actually mean something to him, even if he thinks it's only for 35 people. It would still be better than nothing.

Justice For The 96.

YNWA

Sean

I just needed to follow up to this, and it honestly felt like one of the best moments of my life. I went in to see Jimmy last night for a coffee. He'd had the news on all day and he first thing he did while we sat and had a coffee was say "Well it took 20 odd years but we finally got there eh mate." And by Christ, as many tears as I've shed the last few days, it brought tears of happiness last night. I sat and listened while with tears in his eyes, Jimmy remembered almost everything. He had tears but he didn't cry so I had to fight my own back while we talked. He's very old school see, and if I'd burst out in front of him, he'd probably call me a big girl's blouse or something like that. And I couldn't afford to do anything that might distract him or make him clam up. He remembered the name of his mate without being prompted. He remembered everything almost about the day and the days after it, and he was seething with anger. "Is that fucker going to get jailed for all the lies he put in THAT paper? Anyway, it's not a paper, it's a fucking comic. Anyone who buys that rag is a fucking idiot!" "What about that little fat four eyed bastard copper who opened the gate?" I'm crying my eyes out writing this, but Jimmy remembered and he saw the truth come out. He remembered our 96. Maybe it's the blanket coverage that has triggered part of his memory or something else, I don't know. It doesn't matter if he can't remember it in a few days or not as far as I'm concerned when the papers and news start reporting less and less. He remembered our 96 and however long that's for for Jimmy, whether it's days, weeks or the rest of his life, seeing him remember will last me a lifetime. The truth that we've all known all along is out there now. One more person who may not have seen it because of his illness has now seen it.

And I would again like to thank everyone who has shared their story with us. I hope each day from now on lessens the guilt you harbour and eases the pain and hurt you still feel. That guilt should never have been yours in the first place. I hope that the more people who now know your were always telling the truth, it helps to allow you to heal in whatever way that is for you.

Justice For The 96

YNWA

Sean.

[Zieki]

I was born after Hillsborough thousands of miles away, but last night I had tears in my eyes as I read this thread for the first time. My girlfriend noticed and asked me what was wrong. I told her to read as much as she good. She was in tears before the end of the first page. This thread makes me proud to be a Red. This thread puts things into perspective. I love and respect all of those who have fought for this day and cannot tell you how much your diligence, commitment, and pursuit of the truth means to me. Thank you!

[RoverAndOut]

I'm not a Liverpool fan, nor was I at Hillsborough, but I just want to convey my deepest sympathies to everyone effected by this tragedy. Until the past few days myself and many others never knew the full extent of what happened at Hillsborough. Reading this thread, other survivor stories and various other documents in the past few days has brought tears to my eyes multiple times.

The footballing community has often derided Liverpool fans, the 'self-pity city', etc tags coming out. I've never been one of them but Liverpool fans are owed an apology not just from those responsible, but from those in the footballing world who believed the lies and in ignorance added to the grief. From what I've seen and heard over the last few days I think finally Liverpool have the support of the majority of the footballing world, and I hope the scum that caused this to happen are punished for their crimes.

JFT96.

[aliverbirduponmychest]

I'm not a Liverpool fan, nor was I at Hillsborough, but I just want to convey my deepest sympathies to everyone effected by this tragedy. Until the past few days myself and many others never knew the full extent of what happened at Hillsborough. Reading this thread, other survivor stories and various other documents in the past few days has brought tears to my eyes multiple times.

The footballing community has often derided Liverpool fans, the 'self-pity city', etc tags coming out. I've never been one of them but Liverpool fans are owed an apology not just from those responsible, but from those in the footballing world who believed the lies and in ignorance added to the grief. From what I've seen and heard over the last few days I think finally Liverpool have the support of the majority of the footballing world, and I hope the scum that caused this to happen are punished for their crimes.

JFT96.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm sure I speak for all the reds on here but your thoughts and kind words are very much appreciated.

Ian

[jason67]

Justice For The 96
Sean.

It's really been a mad few days for all of us I reckon.

I teach 16-17 year olds English at a school in Austria and at the start of the week I told them what was going to happen on Wednesday. I tried to explain what had happened at Hillsborough and what it would mean to me (but more importantly the families) if we had some kind of result from the panel.

So late afternoon on the 12th I was pleased to tell them that all had gone better than expected (even though I was shocked by the report)  and I was pretty much happy.

On Thursday morning all was going ok until I got this text from my brother 'JFT96 RIP YNWA' at which point I broke down in front of the whole class, I had to leave the room and sat in the toilet for half an hour crying my eyes out. When I finally got my head together we spent the rest of the day watching related hillsborough documentary's, I swear there wasn't a dry eye in the room.

I really can't remember the last time that I cried so much in one week, probably never. But your post just pushed me over the edge again, i'm sure it won't be the last.

Anyway, cheers for the follow up Sean.

J

[miakeks]

Thank you to all who wrote down their stories - I was moved so much by the accounts...

JFT96.

[Pendzo]

Justice For The 96

YNWA

Sean.

That's class macca, huge smile on my face after reading that.

Everyone sharing their experiences are so brave, you're all in my thoughts this week.

JFT96.

[Ozzie Red]

Survivors: Talk about it, share it, we'll try to help

all the above is correct, and you all have, after not talking about it for so long, to finally unload has been really cathartic, I hope others have found things a little bit easier to bear and I would like to thank everybody on this forum for the patience, understanding and positive re-inforcement.

Special thanks to Sean

YNWA

[Camarero25]

Crying my eyes out reading this thread. I wasn't born at the time but thanks for sharing your experiences.

I'm sorry for the guilt a lot of you feel, just know it wasn't your fault. YNWA.

[AshTJ]

I'm not located near Liverpool and I wasn't actually born till two years after that day, so I guess inevitably I haven't really been as emotionally attached to the events as a lot of people on here who were there, or know somebody who was effected. As a Liverpool fan though, and as a human being, I've always campaigned for justice without probably knowing what a lot of people actually went through on that day. This thread has opened my eyes to exactly that and I thank people sharing their experiences as it's allowed me to understand the emotional attachment a lot of fans have to that day. I've shed a tear or few reading this thread for the past half hour, understanding what a lot of you went through. I can't even start to comprehend in my mind what the past 23 years have been like but I hope the events of recent days have started the healing process and lifted a massive weight of your shoulders.

We've won the battle, now let's win the war and get these bastards locked behind bars where they belong.

[lfc_maniac_tsr]

Hello folks,

Was just 'passing', wanted to say hello to those I know and those I don't who come into this 'area' of RAWK.

Haven't been here for ages, but needs saying that peoples' efforts in all the small and large battles we have, seemingly at every turn, still, establishing the real truth with those who lie and those who know no better, are heroic and are exceptional.

Whenever I think I might be fighting a battle on my own with the small lies and the sometimes overwhelming spreading of big lies by those, for now, in the priviledged position of being in the media, I only have to have a look here at some of the fantastic efforts made by many people and it all seems less daunting and less overwhelming.

Just thanks to people who try so hard in a seemingly very shallow and ignorant world. You're stars, a people apart.

And sorry for the quotes, but you know, others can say it so much better anyway. Keep the faith.

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”

“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

"Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologize for the truth."

"We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart."

 

How true was it!

[xabialonsotorresandreina]

I wrote this in Oct 2008....it was the first time I had ever spoken about it outside of family....couple of very kind Reds replied and helped me deal with the way I was dealing with my feelings at the time.....feels odd to read it again, I was clearly just trying to get the words down and out as quickly as possible.....Wednesday was an incredible day, a feeling of relief at last...closure for some I am sure, but just the start for others seeking justice now for those responsible.
I will always wonder what happened to my standing ticket that I swapped for a seat....who had it?...were they OK?...nothing I can do as I will never know.....just feel incredibly blessed that I was lucky that day.
The truth is out for the 96, and their incredible families that have never stopped fighting for the cause....I also think that there is more awareness outside of the Liverpool community of the suffering of those that survived that day (I don't mean me) but those that were in pens 3/4....PTSD is very serious and we have all read tales of those that have taken there own life because they could not handle the guilt....they have suffered in silence for 23 years, hopefully Weds 12th sept will be a turning point for them....it was not their fault.
Lastly I hope that the next generation start to understand....I was at Old Trafford the day the King returned for us, watching kids singing their hate about "killing your own fans" made my blood boil, but also saddened me that they thought they knew the truth....It could have been any team that happened to on 15/4/89...it happened to be us.
I am pleased I have been able to learn to love going to the match again, and bring up my wonderful 2 boys in the Liverpool way, they were both christened at Anfield, as that is the only religion I believe they should follow.....I was lucky to have been chosen to be a red....and always will be through the wind and the rain.
God bless Our 96 fellow reds who at last have had their tragic tale revealed to it's full extent....and may they rest in peace.....YNWA

Hillsborough Forum / Re: Hillsborough - In the 20th Year
« on: October 14, 2008, 09:32:18 PM »
I have always been a reader but never a poster on these forums...but morestellata's post struck a chord with me...I was 17 for the first semi and went with my big bro...got tickets when we played at forest a few weeks before from a tout...couldn't believe i was going to another semi final...big bro was 10 years older and wiser..stood on the Leppings lane in the corner...2-0 get in....following year just the same...this time with a friend and her husband....bought a ticket outside for the leppings lane...friends bought 2 seats (why could you only buy seats in pairs those days)...my mates Dad was also with us although he drove up seperately and could not get a single seat....after an hour or so we went back to the tout who i had got mine from and swapped for two seats...it cost me an extra fiver...me Nan had give me a fiver that morning so I was flush....rest is history...sat upstairs..warm up, teams run out...beardsley hits the bar...fans on the pitch screaming at Brucie....I will never forget when the pen was eventually emptied looking down from my seat in the upper leppings at the metal bars that you would stand against and they were raised to the floor...i cant imagine the pressure that must have been to cause that....my hands are shaking just writing this...never went to a game for 7 years after the final...it was not until England Holland in euro 96 that i went to a game again...and the following year back to Anfield....I can't even imagine what suffering people that lost family and friends go through every day...but I understand what people mean when they say they have a feeling of guilt....I will never forget how lucky I was...me nans fiver...cos I know I would have gone straight behind that goal if i had been on my own...no question of doubt in my mind on that....we have to keep the memory going for the 96...feel better just getting that off my chest

[Finn Solomon]

Thanks for sharing that, Macca.

[Glorious Future]

I have to say something on here, but it will be much more brief than I'd like right now, so perhaps I'll come back to this later today. I'd have liked to have posted here earlier in the week, but I've been researching online documents etc. Please see other thread "Searching Disclosed Hillsborough Documents" if you can add anything. I believe there are already discrepancies in documents pertaining to my statement that have upset me. Please have a look online if this is of a concern to you too, and look if you feel you can cast a critical eye over the documents. There are some shocking elements to it. (WARNING: the documents are at times overwhelming and can be distressing, be it due to accurate content or due to clear forms of mis-information. Take care with yourself when you read them, please.)

What I wanted to say was I am PROUD of the people that post accounts and thoughts online, because I know that each one of you who opens up is starting a process of 'getting better' and just telling the truth. It's something we tried to do back then. We have been made to feel like criminals, made to feel we somehow had the blood of 96 of our fellow supporters on our hands. THEY LIED to achieve that and they used the full mechanics on A NATIONAL SCALE to achieve that. They did that all why we suffered and subsequently went into the abyss. They did it with cool calculation and a damn sight less upset, clearly. Why they positively raced into their smooth (smear) operation, didn't they?

BUT, WE ARE STILL HERE. WE HAVE WON OUT OVER THEIR LIES. WE WILL NEVER FEEL BE ABLE TO CELEBRATE, we will still weep with pain at times, but on Wednesday, the Hillsborough Independent Panel helped free us of the extra pain, that pain we couldn't understand but still felt.

So, Hillsborough survivors, try to hold your heads up, walk tall for once. You never deserved this pain and you deserve to LIVE in peace.

AND NOW FOR JUSTICE.

[downhill]

Hi, I was there that fateful day. I lived in Norwich at the time so in the aftermath never had many people to talk to, just family & a few good mates.

This account is as I wrote it down a few weeks ago, I hope its ok to share it now, I just feel I need to get it out there coz im really struggling since Wednesdays momentous announcement, my emotions are all over the place.




I drove up from Norwich on 15th April 1989, took me about 3hrs, parked between the City Centre & the ground & made my way up past the back of the Main Stand to the top of Leppings Lane.

When I got to the back of the Leppings Lane End, 13.00hrs (ish) it was buzzing, really busy, lots of Reds about, I got a drink from the little shop in the row of terraced houses, sat on the wall taking in the atmosphere, then I decided to go in so I could get a great ‘spec’, right in amongst the travelling Kop behind the goal. I had never been to a semi before & really wanted to feel part of the action. (little did I know!)

It was 13.25 as I made my way to the turnstiles, already the Police had lost it, a copper on horseback with a moustache, was desperately trying to keep order but the narrow access & sheer numbers made it an impossible task. I remember getting in & I looked round at the turnstile, breathed a sigh of relief & thought ‘I’m glad I’m in here!’

When I looked down the central tunnel, I could see the pitch, bright green, bathed in sunshine…..as always my heart lifted…..this was going to be our day, Come on you Reds.

I went onto the terrace, picked the right hand pen (3) & leant against a barrier about halfway down, in-line with the right hand post. As the terrace filled up I ducked under the barrier so as not to get squashed against it in the mayhem that would follow when we scored! Leant back & read my programme & soaked it all in.

By about 2.35 it was getting pretty packed, good natured, but very little space left.

Next I was aware that as the teams ran out to warm up we saw that Hansen was out there (he had been injured)……up went the chants of ‘Jocky is back, Jocky is back, allo, allo, Jocky is back’.
From then on it went crazy, it was like being squeezed in a vice, I started to sweat heavily & began to feel uneasy. The lad next to me (shorter than me, long, lank hair & I remember thinking of him as being a bit weedy) started complaining that he couldn’t breathe.
Somehow he pulled, levered more like, himself up & in an unreal moment (amongst many!) he was in front of me, on all fours on the heads & shoulders of the crowd. He didn’t/couldn’t fall through, we were that tightly packed.
He asked me what he should do & I motioned with my head for him to head across towards the fence & into the next pen, he did…..crawling 6ft up in the air. An image that’s never left me!

Somewhere around this time I completed a 360 degree turn, just buffeted round by pressure from the crowd, I’m not even sure my feet were on the ground much. This meant I could see people being lifted into the upper deck of the stand, I knew something was going badly wrong by now, but it was all about survival.

The next moment was I think when the barrier collapsed. It must have been a few feet in front of me, suddenly there was a space at my feet (briefly) & I recall looking down & seeing a guy lying there, late 40’s maybe, grey suit or jacket, I thought’ get up mate’ but I can guess what his fate was…..I even look at the names & wonder who he was. 

The guy next to me, burly fella, cropped hair, said ‘help me mate, my feet are trapped’, & he used my shoulder for leverage, as his feet were trapped under the toppling bodies after the barrier went, he got himself vertical, he won his fight for survival.


By now the guys in the pen to our right (2) were helping people over the fence & I guess the carnage in the tunnel meant that no-one else was coming into our pen & slowly we were getting more space.
Eventually I made it to the fence, a lad had his hands through, linked, forming a step. Another guy was acting as catcher. So I got onto the top of the fence but my scarf that was round my wrist was trapped behind me. The catcher asked how heavy I was & told me he would catch me so I toppled forward & was out of danger.


From then I made my way out onto the pitch, sat there & a big St Johns Ambulance lady made sure I was ok. I remember the grass being really damp, on such a sunny day too. Why do I remember that when people were dying just yards from me?

At some point I went & sat in the cantilever stand, opposite the Main stand & at about 4.10 I wondered when the game would start! I must have been in shock for such a ridiculous thought to cross my mind after what I’d been through.

Finally I left the ground & headed for my car, just down on Penistone Rd by the traffic lights,
The burly guy saw me & threw his arms round me, ‘Thanks mate, you saved my life’, he said, ‘Nah pal, we just survived together’. I would love to have a drink with him, just to know we made it.

A bit further along Penistone Rd I overtook 3 Forest fans, 2 lads & a girl. As I got in front of them she said something like ‘that’s one of the Liverpool fans that were fighting’, I turned, my face must have been so filled with anger, 1 lad told her to shut her mouth & the other moved towards me and apologized profusely, told me it was her 1st game & she didn’t know what she was saying!

When I got to my car I put the radio on, already they were talking about deaths, brain gone now, deaths at a football match, don’t be daft!

I found a phone box on my way into Sheffield City centre, huge queue but everyone was in, ‘yes im safe, im ok, home soon’ & out. No-one took the mickey & clogged up the system.
I spoke to my Mum, she said my wife had been in town shopping but she would let her know I was fine, my Dad was still at work, he worked on the evening paper in Norwich so knew exactly what was occurring. I later found out that he actually did the sports page, all about what was happening in Sheffield, he put together the page without knowing if I was safe or not

I rang again from the edge of Sheffield, out towards Worksop to talk to Dad, he wanted to know if I needed him to come & get me. I told him ‘Nope ta Dad’. I got home in about 2hrs 20 mins, flat out all the way….I was invincible that night, shock & adrenaline, what a cocktail!



Thanks for letting me share this        JFT96  YNWA