Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm sure I said this a few years ago where politics seemed to have gone off the rails a bit. There were quite a few dodgy things going on and it all seemed a little... off.

Well. Here we are just a few years later and it looks like World Politics has turned into SOAP (For our younger viewers, a piss-take on soap operas of the time with a cracking intro showing the absurdity of it all).

We have Labour who are more left now than ever, but within that left 'bit' we have people who are madly left, really left, fairly left, not sure what left is any more getting into arguments with people in the Labour Party who are far-right while the centrists look around in bewilderment. We've got people on the right siding with leftist and we've got people on the left siding with the far-right parties.

We've got new far-right parties that got swelled with the left and the right and anyone that just wanted to join in, that got pretty much disbanded when everyone got what they wanted. Except no one was really sure exactly what it was they wanted and now most of us aren't even sure what we didn't want.

We've got politicians lying to the media, the media lying to the public, the owners of mass media stirring it up and pushing an agenda and then we've got foreign powers making and breaking deals, starting trade wars, gaining allies, gaining enemies and generally fucking about.

We've got leaders of nations all over the place that seem to want something different probably getting machinated by shadowy domestic and commercial powers with all the money and, it seems, that for these people - there is never enough, but what they are sure about is that people working for them don't particularly deserve any of it.

You've got sick people in wheel chairs getting told to walk by DWP employees who seem to think they are Jesus and you've got terminally ill patients getting told to "Bloody well get off their fat backsides, stop whining and stop sponging and get to fucking work". Shortly before they die.

We've got Libraries, Fire Stations, Police Stations, Emergency Wards getting shut down. We've got social and Public services going down the pan and yet we're told by Billionaire dickheads via their editors that everything is better today than it's ever been and it's believed by people that presumably don't register the real world. We then get people saying how marvellous it will be to get 'back to the days of Downtown Abbey' because look how marvellous it all was then. Rees-Mogg and his ilk think that a little starvation is just the trick to make people 'know their place'.

We've got characters like Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Donald Trump who you can't even make fun of - Spitting Image would have been scratching their heads and then just replaying actual scenes that really happened. Gone are the days when you can make things up.

You've got actors and singers with more political powers than politicians, who get to decide who can and cannot speak on given issues and then you've got the world heating up while the equvalent of Sadams mate stand there waving there arms saying 'Nothing to see here' - just like the lad in Police Story while the firework factory goes to hell behind him.

You've got left fighting right, left fighting left, right fighting right, people ignoring the liberals who used to be mates with the right. You've got billionaires telling the poor how things are how to vote - which they do. You've got Remain fighting Leave. You've got the North fighting the South. You've got Cities fighting other Cities. You've got the Rural Areas fighting with the Urban areas. You've got the rich fighting the poor. You've got the old fighting the young. You've got religions and none religions fighting with each other and you've got anger and resentment everywhere.

Welcome to Tory world 2018.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Who are the far right ones in labour, hoey is the only one that vaguely springs to mind there

[Devon Red]

When Press TV are live-streaming the no-confidence vote of a pro-Irsaeli Labour MP then, yes, it does appear that we live in interesting times.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-meeting-filmed-iran-state-tv-station-banned-uk-branch-investigating-a8528626.html

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Who are the far right ones in labour, hoey is the only one that vaguely springs to mind there

It seems to me that there are a few in hiding.

I could add people fighting against other people arguing who is far-right or far-left or whatever

[oldfordie]

Many reasons for all these things but whats different today than in the past?
Everybody want's to rule the world but they can't win the support to rule the world by being honest, they can only win power by manipulating the gullible, sound bites etc.
Technology has opened up a world of mass communication, wouldn't you think mass communication would be a good thing. it's a opportunity to get the truth to millions of people. am afraid the majority of people aren't that political, the best bullshitters rule the world. the right have always been the best bullshitters.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Technology has opened up a world of mass communication, wouldn't you think mass communication would be a good thing. it's a opportunity to get the truth to millions of people. am afraid the majority of people aren't that political, the best bullshitters rule the world. the right have always been the best bullshitters.

the problem has become it’s also a great way to spread lies and they don’t have the same levels of accountability as the MSM (some random on twitter is now more reliable to many than say the guardian or the times), also helped by the likes of zuckerberg being fine with stuff like holocaust deniers and twitter only this week banning Alex Jones

[Lush is the best medicine...]

It seems to me that there are a few in hiding.

I could add people fighting against other people arguing who is far-right or far-left or whatever

i wouldnt say they’re far right, more the right of the Labour Party. But the left of the Labour Party do seem to love creating strawmen theyre winning scarecrow competitions all over the place now!

[Circa1892]

This will end well!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

i wouldnt say they’re far right, more the right of the Labour Party. But the left of the Labour Party do seem to love creating strawmen theyre winning scarecrow competitions all over the place now!

I think it's so confused now that labels don't really count any more. There are so many subtexts, involvements, connections, agreements and background stories that barely anything is simple or straightforward any more. It seems to me that most (all?) politicians have multiple agendas - many of which are contradictory.

I mean. Look at May - she looks like she's aged 250 years and staggered in from the new version of the Mummy looking for a cup of tea.

[oldfordie]

the problem has become it’s also a great way to spread lies and they don’t have the same levels of accountability as the MSM (some random on twitter is now more reliable to many than say the guardian or the times), also helped by the likes of zuckerberg being fine with stuff like holocaust deniers and twitter only this week banning Alex Jones

No, there is no accountability, free speech etc.
It's a massive problem and we've discussed it in the past. Algorithms,bias conformation, operating under the radar, Facebook etc.
Many people are being radicalized, am not talking religion, they are being radicalized politically.

[Jake]

What I don't understand is why labour doesn't show a united front to get rid of the Tory scum, then deal with their leadership after.

Jezza got voted in by their fucking members, that's democracy lads and lasses.

[Mutton Geoff]

No, there is no accountability, free speech etc.
It's a massive problem and we've discussed it in the past. Algorithms,bias conformation, operating under the radar, Facebook etc.
Many people are being radicalized, am not talking religion, they are being radicalized politically.

The days when government ministers fell on their sword is long gone , now they can even lie to Common's committees, to the whole house of Commons, Lie to get a result in the most important vote for decades, lie unchallenged on TV and Radio, and we are getting to the stage where people  do not seem to care if they lie or not.

Do these politicians reflect the society we live in?  Or are they steering society to just accept their lack of decency?

This by the way is not partisan all parties seem to have lost all sense of any decent moral values.

And as the cabaret act in the U.S. he just defies belief,  who in gods name still believes anything that comes out of his mouth.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

What I don't understand is why labour doesn't show a united front to get rid of the Tory scum, then deal with their leadership after.

because they know they can’t beat the Tories with the current leadership? And of course the current leaderships inability to deal with the anti semitism will trash the parties name and reputation for years to come?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

When Press TV are live-streaming the no-confidence vote of a pro-Irsaeli Labour MP then, yes, it does appear that we live in interesting times.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-meeting-filmed-iran-state-tv-station-banned-uk-branch-investigating-a8528626.html

Sad that I am not surprised.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Many people are being radicalized, am not talking religion, they are being radicalized politically.

and the easy bit for the manipulators is that they can easily do this to people in their rooms or on their lunch breaks and will continue to do so with the total lack of regulation and lack of inclination to put any in for social media companies

[oldfordie]

The days when government ministers fell on their sword is long gone , now they can even lie to Common's committees, to the whole house of Commons, Lie to get a result in the most important vote for decades, lie unchallenged on TV and Radio, and we are getting to the stage where people  do not seem to care if they lie or not.

Do these politicians reflect the society we live in?  Or are they steering society to just accept their lack of decency?

This by the way is not partisan all parties seem to have lost all sense of any decent moral values.

And as the cabaret act in the U.S. he just defies belief,  who in gods name still believes anything that comes out of his mouth.

Couldn't agree more, they have no shame, a few have been caught lying and issued a apology but no resignation, there are some who have the attitude of alls fair in war. if they can convince people with lies and bullshit then they couldn't give a toss about whether they have acted decently, they believe they have just been more cleverer than other politicians. I hit the roof the day after the referendum with Gizela Stuart. Frottage had admitted the Ł350mill promise was a lie, well he called it a mistake but it was a lie.
Stuart also gave a interview on TV in a TV studio debate, she found it hilarious, people actually believed the Ł350 mill lie, her attitude was aren't we clever, no shame. no standards, disgusting.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Couldn't agree more, they have no shame, a few have been caught lying and issued a apology but no resignation, there are some who have the attitude of alls fair in war. if they can convince people with lies and bullshit then they couldn't give a toss about whether they have acted decently, they believe they have just been more cleverer than other politicians. I hit the roof the day after the referendum with Gizela Stuart. Frottage had admitted the Ł350mill promise was a lie, well he called it a mistake but it was a lie.
Stuart also gave a interview on TV in a TV studio debate, she found it hilarious, people actually believed the Ł350 mill lie, her attitude was aren't we clever, no shame. no standards, disgusting.

from marina Hyde about reality tv but a large part of it applies to politicians

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2018/sep/06/forgive-me-daytime-tv-roxanne-pallett-loose-women-coleen-nolan-age-of-sorry

[oldfordie]

from marina Hyde about reality tv but a large part of it applies to politicians

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2018/sep/06/forgive-me-daytime-tv-roxanne-pallett-loose-women-coleen-nolan-age-of-sorry

Am sure it applies to people who make a living in the media, more controversial they are the more people get angry and react. it certainly applies to UKIP as well.
Creating situations so they can walk out of EU meetings claiming they've been unfairly treated just to get a bit of controversial publicity.
I suppose these shows are the next step up from the Jeremy Kyle show except people can get a bit of publicity and money out of it.

[So… Howard Philips]

Am sure it applies to people who make a living in the media, more controversial they are the more people get angry and react. it certainly applies to UKIP as well.
Creating situations so they can walk out of EU meetings claiming they've been unfairly treated just to get a bit of controversial publicity.
I suppose these shows are the next step up from the Jeremy Kyle show except people can get a bit of publicity and money out of it.

I think politicians media lies and antics are a step down from Jeremy Kyle. Most of Kyle's victims can plaed mitigation due to poor education, most of our politicians have had lengthy and expensive educations but they still seem to be dishonest manipulators.

[oldfordie]

I think politicians media lies and antics are a step down from Jeremy Kyle. Most of Kyle's victims can plaed mitigation due to poor education, most of our politicians have had lengthy and expensive educations but they still seem to be dishonest manipulators.

They are doing it because they are allowed to get away with it, they don't care if they get caught lying or anything else, many people don't believe the lies they've been told but they will support those lies and repeat them if it gives them more of a argument in favour of what they want.
I want all of these vote leave MPs dragged into a public inquiry in years to come,  the lies and properganda campaign they were responsible for dragged this country into the gutter.
We cant allow politics to continue on the path it's taking, we've always had lies and bullshit but not on the scale it is today.
Gove made a statement a few weeks back trying to distance himself from vote leaves campaign, how he wishes he would have had some say on the campaign. he was one of the key people in vote leave. he played a massive part in leaves publicity campaign.
They admitted the NHS Ł350 mill was a lie the day after the referendum not the day before but nobody believed it of course. it played no part in getting people to vote leave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlGN8wVnis

[Jake]

because they know they can’t beat the Tories with the current leadership? And of course the current leaderships inability to deal with the anti semitism will trash the parties name and reputation for years to come?

The majority of the bad press I've seen recently (and I don't go deep into the news, as most the voting public don't I imagine) is coming from within the Labour Party. Present a united front and look like a strong party for fuck sake.

Also, why is he being accused of anti semitism? Because he didn't want to adopt a stance that meant Israel couldn't be criticised for their actions in Palestine? Maybe there's a complex thing I missed so treat this as a genuine question please.

Edit - I ought to add that I think he's a shit for not fighting against brexit, but I'd rather a Jc Labour than any tory party ever.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The majority of the bad press I've seen recently (and I don't go deep into the news, as most the voting public don't I imagine) is coming from within the Labour Party. Present a united front and look like a strong party for fuck sake.

both sides are doing it, you’ve got the non corbynites who see him as a disaster after seeing him in action this last three years who know he’s highly unlikely to win (and if he did he’d be a disaster that would trash Labour’s name for decades) and then you’ve got the corbynites having a go at them, likes of Williamson doing his mandatory reselection roadshow in his colleagues constituencies, McDonnell having a go at ummuna for the ‘call off the dogs’ comment today as ‘grossly offensive’ (when he has made those comments towards brown a decade ago).

Let’s be blunt the best thing would be to split at this point as labour used to be a broad church but it’s obvious now that it’s a totally unsustainable coalition, hopefully most of the PLP grow a spine the next few weeks as loads will be deselected by those who think frank field should have a by election but not Jared o’mara for resigning the whip, Joan Ryan should go for losing a narrow confidence vote but not corbyn who lost a confidence vote emphatically two years earlier, anyone who isn’t in the corbyn camp will be booted out soon, if they had any sense they’d jump and take advantage of the benefits of basically being the opposition party the next 4 years whilst this Labour Party dies

Also, why is he being accused of anti semitism? Because he didn't want to adopt a stance that meant Israel couldn't be criticised for their actions in Palestine?

IHRA allows criticism of Israel and their actions in Palestine, whoever says otherwise is wrong/intentionally lying. Corbyns problem is that it says saying the creation of Israel is a racist endeavour is anti Semitic, why he feels the need to do this when the Jewish community have no trust in him, especially after that chakrabarti report where she said there was no major issue with anti semitism in the Labour Party and magically got a peerage soon after and of course his comments about the infamous mural, the British zionists comments which would have got him fired had he said those about any other minority group, can go on and on here

Then again that sums up his priorities, put far more into a largely meaningless issue amongst the electorate than Brexit which is far far more important, seem to remember him at a Cuba solidarity event when the first labour Brexit meetings were taking place which sums him up, all about his pet projects that his fellow travellers obsess over that the many do not.

[killer-heels]

Just random but we are seeing some good, old school political smearing taking place in the papers. Johnson is getting all his dirty laundry (eww) put out in public view by number 10.

Expect much more dirty tricks.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/98447/labour-row-dawn-butler-praises-militant-led

These people are fucking morons, anyone who has ever voted for them should be banned from voting

[CornerFlag]

The conference is streaming live here btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmLm9G-EBg

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wHmLm9G-EBg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wHmLm9G-EBg</a>

[CornerFlag]

Can someone explain the importance of this a bit better to me?  Taken from Robert Peston's Twitter:

[Lush is the best medicine...]

CLP priorities ballot results

Housing 297,032
Schools System 233,883
Justice for the Windrush generation 212,612
Palestine 188,019
Brexit 149,172
The NHS 121,487
Welfare System 89,861
Climate Change and Fracking 72,890
Local Government Funding 68,473
Social Care 64,569

Palestine is more important to labour CLPs than the nhs, welfare system, social care, climate change and local government funding. Good to know this.

[TepidT2O]

Mind blowing

[Libertine]

Palestine 188,019
Brexit 149,172
The NHS 121,487

 

The student-unionisation of politics.

[Alan_X]

i wouldnt say they’re far right, more the right of the Labour Party. But the left of the Labour Party do seem to love creating strawmen theyre winning scarecrow competitions all over the place now!

It’s been straightforward for a while now. Not 100% behind Jeremy = Blairite/Red Tory/Neo-Liberal... It’s not a party any more, it’s a personality cult. 

Other clues to being a wrong un: Not prioritising Middle East politics over Brexit. Palestine is an issue that the world needs to address, of course it is. Why is it a key issue for the British Labour Party? There are dienfranchised people across the world. Many of them disenfranchised due to historical Imperialism. I’ve never understood the fascination with Palestine on the left. I have suspicions but they’re probably best left unsaid.

[Alan_X]

CLP priorities ballot results

Housing 297,032
Schools System 233,883
Justice for the Windrush generation 212,612
Palestine 188,019
Brexit 149,172
The NHS 121,487
Welfare System 89,861
Climate Change and Fracking 72,890
Local Government Funding 68,473
Social Care 64,569

Palestine is more important to labour CLPs than the nhs, welfare system, social care, climate change and local government funding. Good to know this.

I rest my case. What a fucking clown show.

[Alan_X]

The Labour Party can go fuck themselves. Nothing to do with me any more. Palestine is more important than climate change, welfare and Brexit.  What the actual fuck! Climate fucking change you stupid fucking morons!

A great party rapidly disappearing up its own arse.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

It’s been straightforward for a while now. Not 100% behind Jeremy = Blairite/Red Tory/Neo-Liberal... It’s not a party any more, it’s a personality cult. 

Posted this in the Brexit thread but more appropriate here, the reaction and some of the comments sums that mob up

https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1043881531373244416?s=21

Other clues to being a wrong un: Not prioritising Middle East politics over Brexit. Palestine is an issue that the world needs to address, of course it is. Why is it a key issue for the British Labour Party? There are dienfranchised people across the world. Many of them disenfranchised due to historical Imperialism. I’ve never understood the fascination with Palestine on the left. I have suspicions but they’re probably best left unsaid.

i think it’s bloody obvious mate, when it comes to international issues the likes of Syria and Myanmar are bigger and more important ones, as is the catastrophe that is the leaderships favourite Latin American country but that last one would embarrass the leader (who deleted any references to his support for them from his website two years ago), but no it’s palestine as those would be embarrassing for them.

Sure all those people who’s lives have been negatively impacted by local council cuts know that these dickheads think Palestine is nearly three times more important than them.

I rest my case. What a fucking clown show.

if the Tories, Lib Dem’s, greens etc are smart they’ll be using that for a long long time

[Zeb]

Anyone know if it's true Momentum was handing out the sheets recommending voting for a priority debate on Palestine? I missed that as I was sitting listening to Lansman telling the JLM that he was working hard against antisemitism.

[BoRed]

Anyone know if it's true Momentum was handing out the sheets recommending voting for a priority debate on Palestine? I missed that as I was sitting listening to Lansman telling the JLM that he was working hard against antisemitism.

"Momentum is advising delegates to prioritise four topics, Windrush, schools, housing and Palestine. Sources said it was unnecessary to advise delegates to vote for Brexit, seeing as it was guaranteed debate anyway because the unions would vote for it."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/sep/23/labour-conference-liverpool-jeremy-corbyn-say-he-will-accept-any-labour-conference-decision-on-second-brexit-referendum-politics-live?page=with:block-5ba755c3e4b0a9b970677e10#block-5ba755c3e4b0a9b970677e10

So not quite prioritising Palestine over Brexit as some are trying to present it above, but more "Brexit is certain to be debated, so it's safe to vote for other issues, that could otherwise miss out (not to Brexit)". The actual ranking is irrelevant, the issues are either being debated or not.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Why is Palestine more important than local govt cuts and the nhs?

[BoRed]

Why is Palestine more important than local govt cuts and the nhs?

Your usage of "more important" suggests you're missing the point of these votes. These are issues for debate at a Labour conference. Pretty much everyone within Labour is on the same page when it comes to the NHS or local government funding. Of course these issues are more important than Palestine, but they're not necessarily more appropriate for debate, since there's not much to debate there.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Your usage of "more important" suggests you're missing the point of these votes. These are issues for debate at a Labour conference. Pretty much everyone within Labour is on the same page when it comes to the NHS or local government funding. Of course these issues are more important than Palestine, but they're not necessarily more appropriate for debate, since there's not much to debate there.

anyone wondering why labour are fucked here is why

[Zeb]

Ta for confirmation BoRed. Knew about Unions, so understandable CLPs focused on other things.

Your usage of "more important" suggests you're missing the point of these votes. These are issues for debate at a Labour conference. Pretty much everyone within Labour is on the same page when it comes to the NHS or local government funding. Of course these issues are more important than Palestine, but they're not necessarily more appropriate for debate, since there's not much to debate there.

How do you feel about tearing down Universal Credit and starting again? Should we go back to the old style system or start afresh?
Or what mitigations are most suitable for Climate Change in this country? How should decisions be taken? And how do we best respond to support developing countries?
Seem more open to debate and discussion than even Brexit, where 9 out of 10 of us are all on the same page. Not sure what debate is expected in the Palestine debate if flags are being handed out? Know several people considering whether it's worth the crap to even show their faces as supporting a two state solution rather than the Hamas charter. Just a curious decision. But good luck with it.

[BoRed]

How do you feel about tearing down Universal Credit and starting again? Should we go back to the old style system or start afresh?
Or what mitigations are most suitable for Climate Change in this country? How should decisions be taken? And how do we best respond to support developing countries?
Seem more open to debate and discussion than even Brexit, where 9 out of 10 of us are all on the same page. Not sure what debate is expected in the Palestine debate if flags are being handed out? Know several people considering whether it's worth the crap to even show their faces as supporting a two state solution rather than the Hamas charter. Just a curious decision. But good luck with it.

Welfare changes and climate change will be debated, hopefully something constructive comes out of that.

No idea why they prioritised Palestine, I think the issue would be best avoided, particularly given the latest anti-semitism scandals. Maybe they felt it was important to show that Labour can still debate the issue in a proper way. Seems risky, though.

Brexit was important. 9 out of 10 of us may be on the same page, but the leadership are way off, as McDonnell demonstrated this morning. It should be made clear how the members feel, not only to the leadership, but also to further embolden the pro-EU MPs. Should Labour come to power, Corbyn must be made aware that he won't have the support of enough Labour MPs to push any kind of Brexit through parliament, and relying on Tories for support would pretty much end his political career. That's why the People's Vote went with the motion last night, priority must be getting Labour into power, because there would then be more than enough Labour MPs in parliament to prevent Brexit one way or another.

Unfortunately, despite everyone blaming Labour for Brexit, Labour can neither prevent Brexit nor secure a second referendum until they're actually in power.