Topic: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK

[classycarra]

Knowing who they are will probably tell us who sent them. Russians have a visa process here so you wonder how not only they got in and more importantly how they got out.

Are you getting at something?

[oldfordie]

Knowing who they are will probably tell us who sent them. Russians have a visa process here so you wonder how not only they got in and more importantly how they got out.

We do know the names they gave, they must have followed the correct procedures to enter the country. I don't see the point you're making.
I think Russia have said they don't know who they are. Russia are denying all knowledge of the attack, knowing the attackers names means nothing unless they have previous history which is why they wouldn't send anyone with previous history.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There seems to be a weird perception here that they used their real names.

 

[So… Howard Philips]

There seems to be a weird perception here that they used their real names.

 

I'm sure they didn't but their faces are probably on social media complete with holiday snaps and Mrs GRU assassin pouting at the camera.

[killer-heels]

We do know the names they gave, they must have followed the correct procedures to enter the country. I don't see the point you're making.
I think Russia have said they don't know who they are. Russia are denying all knowledge of the attack, knowing the attackers names means nothing unless they have previous history which is why they wouldn't send anyone with previous history.

There are quite a few Russian agents working in this country and probably vice-versa. I would imagine that many of those are actually allowed in for diplomatic reasons rather than being here illegally.

For me the interesting thing is if they were known then when did they actually leave the country and if they were not known then how we found out their identies. Of course we will probably never get those answers.

[oldfordie]

There are quite a few Russian agents working in this country and probably vice-versa. I would imagine that many of those are actually allowed in for diplomatic reasons rather than being here illegally.

For me the interesting thing is if they were known then when did they actually leave the country and if they were not known then how we found out their identies. Of course we will probably never get those answers.

We know the names they gave from passports, they were not under suspicion while in this country, they left Salisbury and went back to hotel in London and straight to the Airport,they left the country that night. there is no mystery.

[killer-heels]

We know the names they gave from passports, they were not under suspicion while in this country, they left Salisbury and went back to hotel in London and straight to the Airport,they left the country that night. there is no mystery.

I am not questioning the official reports as to who they are and who they work for but I am just speculating on the timeline of the events.

[Alan_X]

They did fail in that but in their overall aims I suspect they were successful. They are telling their people they are the victims, it is "us against the world" and also sent yet another warning to any citizen who defects or helps the perceived enemy. In that they have been successful.

Oh I know and I agree with all that. The message to Putin's dissenters is that we'll get you anywhere and we don't really give a shit who knows. To his apologists (Seamus Milne, Corbyn etc) the denial is accepted at face value because 'the West' is always in the wrong.

I was just saying that the assassination itself was a failure.

[Peabee]

There's also another theory that someone else Russian wanted Skripal dead other than the Russian Government. The fact that Skripal is still alive is what makes me question the government involvement, the fact that the "spies" got a rail replacement service bus back to the airport well is a bit comical to say the least.

Why? They’d bring more attention to themselves racing off in a helicopter or Aston Martin like in the films. In real life, they’ll be using public transport. There’s no paperwork involved.

[Peabee]

I don’t follow. They’ve been following up on leads and the case is now at a stage where they have enough evidence to make charges.

There’s still a lot of people questioning it because of the claims made by our govt before the investigation (there were such claims of Russian involvement - always likely to be them, yes, but no evidence back then - before the substance had even been tested) and since the disinformation campaign from Russia. You only need to read the rest of this thread since the news of evidence.

The investigation since the attack has obviously been spot on. I just find the way the govt dealt with it early on as the weak link. The agencies involved have done a great job.

I'm not following either. Is it one of these two?

Is the problem that their early investigations were too good now they've been confirmed by further investigation, leading to charges?

or is the problem that the UK government shouldn't have mentioned anything to do with the Russian government until now, despite the very obvious and clear link with the matching substance (novichok) which had already been independently established after the Salisbury attack to have originated from Russia?

If it's the second one, I think UK citizens would have been up in arms demanding the government broke their silence. Especially residents in and around Salisbury

You don’t have to always copy a Mod or Yorkie like a sycophant mate.

[classycarra]

You don’t have to always copy a Mod or Yorkie like a sycophant mate.

I had no idea what you were on about until I saw I quoted Alan and not theshankylgates (same avatar). The only thing I had in common with Alan’s post was that i didn’t know what you were getting at (which you’ve now explained)

Not sure what worked you up about that, but there’s no evidence of collusion over Russia!

[TepidT2O]

There's also another theory that someone else Russian wanted Skripal dead other than the Russian Government. The fact that Skripal is still alive is what makes me question the government involvement, the fact that the "spies" got a rail replacement service bus back to the airport well is a bit comical to say the least.

This isn’t a theory.  This is bollocks.


Why is it bollocks?  Because there is no way on earth that you can make a chemical agent like that without government resources.  It’s far far too dangerous to do without some serious serious equipment.

There are only a couple of ways to synthesise the stuff.  They both took years of research and 1000s of man hours.  There is no way on earth that another way to make it was found.
Additionally, the chemicals required these nerve agents just aren’t accessible.

You can’t go and buy them, it’s just not possible.

It can ONLY have come from a state sponsored source, and it will be totally clear which government from the tell tail finger print of trace chemicals remaining in the sample.

Chemistry over.

[jason67]

There are quite a few Russian agents working in this country and probably vice-versa. I would imagine that many of those are actually allowed in for diplomatic reasons rather than being here illegally.

For me the interesting thing is if they were known then when did they actually leave the country and if they were not known then how we found out their identies. Of course we will probably never get those answers.

Maybe you should get in touch with MI6/7 and let them know who they are?

[killer-heels]

Maybe you should get in touch with MI6/7 and let them know who they are?

I tried but they didnt want to know.

Anyway that has been mentioned by people who worked for the security forces.

[oldfordie]

Maybe you should get in touch with MI6/7 and let them know who they are?

We always think of Russian agents as Spies looking for secrets. that maybe true today but go back pre internet Soviet Union and it was a different story.
I wouldn't be surprised if we had dozens of Russian agents doing normal jobs throughout the week and following orders to gather information readily available to anyone at the weekend. how many agents is anyone's guess but they were here and I wouldn't be surprised if some are living a happy retirement in England.

[Alan_X]

There's also another theory that someone else Russian wanted Skripal dead other than the Russian Government. The fact that Skripal is still alive is what makes me question the government involvement, the fact that the "spies" got a rail replacement service bus back to the airport well is a bit comical to say the least.

What the actual fuck? The overwhelming evidence that it was a Russian operation is discounted because of a rail replacement service?

Do tell us all what the fuck that has to do with anything?

Are you saying that if the GRU has been involved they would have cancelled the operation if there was a rail replacement bus service? Do you realise how utterly ridiculous that is? Was catching an actual train rather than a bus mission critical for the GRU?

There’s being open minded and then there’s allowing your brains to slop around and spill all over the floor.

Seriously mate, you have surpassed yourself.

[killer-heels]

I'd keep their names written down on a piece of paper then if I were you, might come in handy later.

I will do. One called herself Amanda Hugandkiss.

[Peabee]

I had no idea what you were on about until I saw I quoted Alan and not theshankylgates (same avatar). The only thing I had in common with Alan’s post was that i didn’t know what you were getting at (which you’ve now explained)

Not sure what worked you up about that, but there’s no evidence of collusion over Russia!

Haha. I should have put a wink. I’m generally shit at going back to my old posts to check replies, but there was a similar one with Yorkie. I was just being a dick, I know you’re not a sycophant.

[Alan_X]

There’s still a lot of people questioning it because of the claims made by our govt before the investigation (there were such claims of Russian involvement - always likely to be them, yes, but no evidence back then - before the substance had even been tested) and since the disinformation campaign from Russia. You only need to read the rest of this thread since the news of evidence.

The investigation since the attack has obviously been spot on. I just find the way the govt dealt with it early on as the weak link. The agencies involved have done a great job.

None of us know what the government knew early on (based on information from the agencies you refer to). Having said that it was pretty fucking obvious to anyone (apart from Corbyn and conspiracy theorists) that a poison attach in a Russian dissident using a Russian nerve agent was 99.9% likely to be a Russian attack. I mean, the thread it was first reported in was the thread about a Russian attack on a dissident in the UK using polonium. Occam’s razor, stating the bleeding obvious and all that. 

You don’t have to always copy a Mod or Yorkie like a sycophant mate.

Come on lad - you’re better than that. People have their own opinions and thoughts. Sometimes they are perceptive enough to agree with me.

I’m flattered that you think my opinions are worth agreeing with but I’m just a moderator on a football website. I doubt many people are shallow enough to form their opinions around a lad who has been daft enough to get roped in to giving up his free time to moderate on here.

*edit - wink added.

[TepidT2O]

People questioning the police initially positing the idea that the novchok was done by Russia.

When the victim was a dissident Russian agent who had been threatened with death by Russia, was poisoned by a uniquely Russian nerve agent when two Russian GRU agents were staying in a local hotel....

What ever lead them to that initial hypothesis? 

[Alan_X]

People questioning the police initially positing the idea that the novchok was done by Russia.

When the victim was a dissident Russian agent who had been threatened with death by Russia, was poisoned by a uniquely Russian nerve agent when two Russian GRU agents were staying in a local hotel....

What ever lead them to that initial hypothesis? 

You’re just one of the sheeple mate. As every conspiracy theorist knows, when the evidence overwhelmingly points to one conclusion it’s clear evidence that the conspiracy runs really deep and the ‘real’ answer is the opposite of what the evidence shows.

[Peabee]

People questioning the police initially positing the idea that the novchok was done by Russia.

When the victim was a dissident Russian agent who had been threatened with death by Russia, was poisoned by a uniquely Russian nerve agent when two Russian GRU agents were staying in a local hotel....

What ever lead them to that initial hypothesis?

 I just think in a sensitive situation it’s best to err on the side of caution.

Also, I’m a mathematician, my standards of proof are far higher than “obvious”. 

Alan - I know, I was just being a dick, I admit. Classycara is a decent rawkite.

[Gerry Attrick]

I just think in a sensitive situation it’s best to err on the side of caution.

Also, I’m a mathematician, my standards of proof are far higher than “obvious”. 

Alan - I know, I was just being a dick, I admit. Classycara is a decent rawkite.

I think that needs to be VARed

[Alan_X]

I just think in a sensitive situation it’s best to err on the side of caution.

Also, I’m a mathematician, my standards of proof are far higher than “obvious”. 

Alan - I know, I was just being a dick, I admit. Classycara is a decent rawkite.

Haha - no problem mate.

[CornerFlag]

I just think in a sensitive situation it’s best to err on the side of caution.

Also, I’m a mathematician, my standards of proof are far higher than “obvious”. 

Alan - I know, I was just being a dick, I admit. Classycara is a decent rawkite.

Big if true...

Anyone who thinks it's not the Russians... seriously, have a word with yourself.  As much of a lunatic I think May is, I doubt she's going to be throwing it out there too readily that Putin's fingerprints are all over this if she didn't have reason to.  It's just baffling that there'd be anyone of their right mind who'd think otherwise.  Occam's Razor for this one.

[Peabee]

Big if true...

Anyone who thinks it's not the Russians... seriously, have a word with yourself.  As much of a lunatic I think May is, I doubt she's going to be throwing it out there too readily that Putin's fingerprints are all over this if she didn't have reason to.  It's just baffling that there'd be anyone of their right mind who'd think otherwise.  Occam's Razor for this one.

I thought it was the Russians from the start (like you say, Occam’s Razor). But until there’s evidence, it shouldn’t be claimed by our PM etc that it’s the Russians, no matter what we private citizens or newspapers say.

[TepidT2O]

I thought it was the Russians from the start (like you say, Occam’s Razor). But until there’s evidence, it shouldn’t be claimed by our PM etc that it’s the Russians, no matter what we private citizens or newspapers say.

It there IS evidence.Loads of it.

[Alan_X]

I thought it was the Russians from the start (like you say, Occam’s Razor). But until there’s evidence, it shouldn’t be claimed by our PM etc that it’s the Russians, no matter what we private citizens or newspapers say.

That’s fine in the abstract but in real time and with people critically ill in hospital you have to call it. It’s a balance of probability situation not ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. 

[Peabee]

It there IS evidence.Loads of it.

Yes, there is now, which I’ve accepted.

[TepidT2O]

Yes, there is now, which I’ve accepted.

There was then.  You just didn’t know about it.  The PM did.

[classycarra]

Haha. I should have put a wink. I’m generally shit at going back to my old posts to check replies, but there was a similar one with Yorkie. I was just being a dick, I know you’re not a sycophant.

Cheers mate

Alan - I know, I was just being a dick, I admit. Classycara is a decent rawkite.

I think that needs to be VARed

Big if true...

See lads, this is the problem with VAR (have I mentioned I'm against it before?) - it means we waste our time discussing decisions, when it's been obvious to everyone from the start that I'm not one of the decent ones!

[A-Bomb]

I thought it was the Russians from the start (like you say, Occam’s Razor). But until there’s evidence, it shouldn’t be claimed by our PM etc that it’s the Russians, no matter what we private citizens or newspapers say.

There's clearly enough evidence to warrant an arrest and bring these two Russians to a court - until they've been tried in a court of law 'beyond reasonable doubt' will never reasonably be established - however that's never going to happen, so we're only left with the evidence to make a decision and it paints a fairly clear picture of events - we can but speculate over who was the puppet master, but with one very clear motive it's not difficult to arrive at the conclusion most people have.

[So… Howard Philips]

There's clearly enough evidence to warrant an arrest and bring these two Russians to a court - until they've been tried in a court of law 'beyond reasonable doubt' will never reasonably be established - however that's never going to happen, so we're only left with the evidence to make a decision and it paints a fairly clear picture of events - we can but speculate over who was the puppet master, but with one very clear motive it's not difficult to arrive at the conclusion most people have.

There is a legal principle;

In the law of evidence, similar fact evidence (or the similar fact principle) establishes the conditions under which factual evidence of past misconduct of accused can be admitted at trial for the purpose of inferring that the accused committed the misconduct at issue.

Going back to Litvinenko there have been a stream of Russian emigres who have met suspicious deaths in the UK. Whilst not strictly following the principle of similar fact evidence their is a chain of evidence which indicates some malign source.

It would be interesting to see how many Russians, who have fallen out with the regime, have met an early death in other countries.

[CraigDS]

Skripal suspects: 'We were just tourists'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45509697


Well I believe them 

[Broad Spectrum]

Can't knock a couple of devout Catholics visiting a Cathedral.

[classycarra]

Funny they knew the height of the spire, justifying travelling to Salisbury, when being interviewed off the cuff!

[Theoldkopite]

Skripal suspects: 'We were just tourists'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45509697


Well I believe them 

Can't wait to read their Trip Advisor reviews.

[Peabee]

All those world famous Salisbury attractions, the Cathedral, the Sunday market, the Skripals’ door handle, and they didn’t even visit nearby Stonehenge.

[Qston]

Skripal suspects: 'We were just tourists'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45509697


Well I believe them 

well that's that then. They were just two normal blokes travelling thousands of miles to visit a small city 1 1/2 hours from London to see a steeple for an hour and then returning to london. All perfectly plausible. Of course the thing they are most upset by is the accusation that "decent lads" would have perfume in their possession. Far more offensive than being accused of murdering people using weapons grade chemicals

[Craig S]

well that's that then. They were just two normal blokes travelling thousands of miles to visit a small city 1 1/2 hours from London to see a steeple for an hour and then returning to london. All perfectly plausible. Of course the thing they are most upset by is the accusation that "decent lads" would have perfume in their possession. Far more offensive than being accused of murdering people using weapons grade chemicals

Exactly mate, got to believe them haven't you? They said "The customs are checking everything, they would have questions as to why men have women's perfume in their luggage".
No one ever ever buys perfume for their mrs when passing through an airport. Absolutely no one.