Topic: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK

[TepidT2O]

I'm not following either. Is it one of these two?

Is the problem that their early investigations were too good now they've been confirmed by further investigation, leading to charges?

or is the problem that the UK government shouldn't have mentioned anything to do with the Russian government until now, despite the very obvious and clear link with the matching substance (novichok) which had already been independently established after the Salisbury attack to have originated from Russia?

If it's the second one, I think UK citizens would have been up in arms demanding the government broke their silence. Especially residents in and around Salisbury

You’re under attack by your biggest foe who has used chemical weapons in your country.

You’d have to be fucking unhinged not to mention it, it would be an astonishing abdication if responsibility.The only thing more insanely stupid would be to ask the Russians to check if the nerve agent was there’s or not. That would be incompetence on a galactic scale.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-salisbury-samples-13197694.amp?__twitter_impression=true

FFS

[TepidT2O]

“Dear Russia.

Did you use this nerve agent to kill someone in my country.”

“No you say?”

“Oh splendid, well sorry for troubling you.  We will look else where”


We can all sleep safe in our beds now...

[classycarra]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-salisbury-samples-13197694.amp?__twitter_impression=true

FFS

So Seumus Milne, a man who'd publicly rim Putin if he'd only allow him, has said that the Russian state should be placated by an independent international watchdog solely so that Putin's kleptocrats can do a better job with their lies and propoganda? I am shocked, shocked!

[Qston]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45439388

Well the international community is full square behind our conclusions.

It simply cannot be allowed to stand. It also makes Trump's cosying up to Putin look even more out of step with the international community and utterly misguided.

[Gerry Attrick]

The work by police has been exceptional here. Some very smart people working in this country. Shame the c*nts behind it will never face the music though.

[Qston]

The work by police has been exceptional here. Some very smart people working in this country. Shame the c*nts behind it will never face the music though.

I hate injustice and that will be a huge injustice for all the people involved although you're absolutely right, they won`t face what they're due. The security services and police here have been fantastic, and to give credit where it's due, Theresa May has dealt with this really well.

If that pair of shits take one step outside of russia to anyone we have a reciprocal arrangement on extradition with their feet should hardly touch the ground. sadly Putin has achieved what he set out to do. We are somehow the enemy and the world is against Russia.

[Alan_X]

I hate injustice and that will be a huge injustice for all the people involved although you're absolutely right, they won`t face what they're due. The security services and police here have been fantastic, and to give credit where it's due, Theresa May has dealt with this really well.

If that pair of shits take one step outside of russia to anyone we have a reciprocal arrangement on extradition with their feet should hardly touch the ground. sadly Putin has achieved what he set out to do. We are somehow the enemy and the world is against Russia.

He wanted to kill Skripal and he failed.

[Robinred]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-salisbury-samples-13197694.amp?__twitter_impression=true

FFS

FFS indeed.

Here’s a very simple question, Seumus: If these two Russians were NOT in Salisbury to attempt to murder the Skripals (they were in the U.K for only 48 hours) then wtf were they doing here?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-salisbury-samples-13197694.amp?__twitter_impression=true

FFS

Every time I start to think that I will vote for Labour even though that guy is the leader he goes and acts and even bigger c*nt.

The guy is just a prick.

[Alan_X]

FFS indeed.

Here’s a very simple question, Seumus: If these two Russians were NOT in Salisbury to attempt to murder the Skripals (they were in the U.K for only 48 hours) then wtf were they doing here?

Seamus: "Well, I think the only thing to do is ask the Russians whether they sent two agents to carry out the attack (which may or may not have happened). And to assist them in responding we should hand over our evidence and intelligence..."

[So… Howard Philips]

Every time I start to think that I will vote for Labour even though that guy is the leader he goes and acts and even bigger c*nt.

The guy is just a prick.

He bends over backwards to offer succour to the heroes of his youth, irrespective of any evidence.

[killer-heels]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45439388

Well the international community is full square behind our conclusions.

It simply cannot be allowed to stand. It also makes Trump's cosying up to Putin look even more out of step with the international community and utterly misguided.

Not allowed to stand? What exactly are we going to do to Russia about this? We mention the people, Putin strengthens his grip and uses it to show his people the world is against them etc.

[oldfordie]

The police and intelligence service have done a brilliant job ,just cant help thinking they wanted to leave a trail.
It's as if we are dealing with amateurs. this is the Russian intelligence service and they made no effort to disguise themselves, using a train and risking CT surveillance pictures tracking their every movement instead of jumping in a car and driving directly to the location. they've got them bang to rights from the day they arrive in the UK to the day they leave.
I think Russia wanted to send 2 messages.
1 They will kill anyone anywhere who they want too and the don't give a s.. about the international repercussions. no bullet in the head on a park bench, has to be Novichok, a poison, military grade. it's a state assassination.
 2 This is what you get UK if you disrespect our right to do whats important for Russia, their will be repercussions.  the Ukraine

[TepidT2O]

It impossible not to leave a trail... that’s the point...

Although they probably didn’t care anyway

[Qston]

Not allowed to stand? What exactly are we going to do to Russia about this? We mention the people, Putin strengthens his grip and uses it to show his people the world is against them etc.

There are various things the international community can do which causes the Russian's to sit up and take notice. Much harsher sanctions on their elite with a focus on the banking sector would be a start. Sadly money is what makes the world go round, and stopping the flow of dirty Russian money affects those in the pocket of Putin and not doubt him and the economy in Russia. I also have little doubt, as has been the case for many a year, that British intelligence services have a fair idea who some, if not most, of their intelligence agents are in this country. Deporting them perhaps even if they have diplomatic visa's as long as that suits are needs with agents there.

The fact that the international community does seem to, in the most part, come full square behind us is helpful. From what I have read that last round of sanctions and expulsions did have an affect so perhaps more of the same. I am sure there are plenty of things we and the international community can do to cause a problem. That said, I am also pretty sure that it won`t change Putin's behaviour and his continuing policy of showing the Russian people they are the victims in everything that happens.

[Qston]

He wanted to kill Skripal and he failed.

They did fail in that but in their overall aims I suspect they were successful. They are telling their people they are the victims, it is "us against the world" and also sent yet another warning to any citizen who defects or helps the perceived enemy. In that they have been successful.

[SlowRap]

There's also another theory that someone else Russian wanted Skripal dead other than the Russian Government. The fact that Skripal is still alive is what makes me question the government involvement, the fact that the "spies" got a rail replacement service bus back to the airport well is a bit comical to say the least.

[Qston]

There's also another theory that someone else Russian wanted Skripal dead other than the Russian Government. The fact that Skripal is still alive is what makes me question the government involvement, the fact that the "spies" got a rail replacement service bus back to the airport well is a bit comical to say the least.

How would they get hold of a sophisticated nerve agent under government control ? Unless of course, more worryingly, they don`t have control. A bit like unaccounted for nuclear weapons when the USSR

[killer-heels]

There are various things the international community can do which causes the Russian's to sit up and take notice. Much harsher sanctions on their elite with a focus on the banking sector would be a start. Sadly money is what makes the world go round, and stopping the flow of dirty Russian money affects those in the pocket of Putin and not doubt him and the economy in Russia. I also have little doubt, as has been the case for many a year, that British intelligence services have a fair idea who some, if not most, of their intelligence agents are in this country. Deporting them perhaps even if they have diplomatic visa's as long as that suits are needs with agents there.

The fact that the international community does seem to, in the most part, come full square behind us is helpful. From what I have read that last round of sanctions and expulsions did have an affect so perhaps more of the same. I am sure there are plenty of things we and the international community can do to cause a problem. That said, I am also pretty sure that it won`t change Putin's behaviour and his continuing policy of showing the Russian people they are the victims in everything that happens.

There are plenty of countries that wont squeeze the Russians as much as we are though. Germany certainly wont.

[SlowRap]

How would they get hold of a sophisticated nerve agent under government control ? Unless of course, more worryingly, they don`t have control. A bit like unaccounted for nuclear weapons when the USSR

Mirzayanov said he had published the formula for the agent — known as novichok — in a 2008 English-language book called State Secrets: An Insider's Chronicle Of The Russian Chemical Weapons Program Secrets.

[Qston]

There are plenty of countries that wont squeeze the Russians as much as we are though. Germany certainly wont.

Completely accept that and also particularly the Germans with their ultra reliance on their energy supplies (another debate and topic entirely but western europe - other than the French - walked into that one). However, the big money centres around the world can make a difference. I see it is a lot of small restrictions amount eventually to a great deal. Targeting specific individuals in unique and creative ways does, in my view, send a message. Take some of the oligarchs linked to Putin here, and putting aside free markets discussions etc, should they be allowed to buy property up ? do we have powers to take property off them ? Can we freeze all of their assets here ? Can our partners do the same thing ?

I completely accept that this it is incredibly difficult to really send out a strong message, and no one wants any military action of any description, but for the last decade or so Russia has been allowed to flex its muscles in so many aggressive ways and get away with it. Using chemical weapons in Syria, using nerve agents on the streets of Britain, attempting to influence western democracy, invading countries on their own borders, using biker gangs to use extreme violence at arms length and many other examples. They have got bolder and bolder in pushing the boundaries and the world needs to react. Whilst the use of a nerve agent here is a very small incident in terms of its effect (other than on the poor people affected), it is what is signifies that is so worrying. To use a nerve agent, and previously using radioactive material, in this country is astonishing.

[TepidT2O]

Look.  There is no way some random person made the stuff.  It’s insanely dangerous to make.

As for the Russians?  Well, there are different techniques to making these nerve agents. Each leaves a tell tail imprinting in the final product.  It may be different by products, it may be different solvent residues.  But each leaves its finger print.  That the chemical came from Russian sources is a total no brainer.

[.adam]

It simply cannot be allowed to stand.

Unfortunately, nothing will be done. The c*nts shot down a passenger aircraft over Ukraine and seized half of its territory with fuck all in response.


EDIT: If you get a chance, have a read of the MH17 invesitgation report. The amount of evidence they gathered (including footage of the BUK missile launcher being moved) is just overwhelming. The twats in the Russian government still have the gall deny everything.

[The Gulleysucker]

...., the fact that the "spies" got a rail replacement service bus back to the airport well is a bit comical to say the least.

Yes, they could have at least used some jet packs, or perhaps a small submarine parked up at Docklands inside a secret compartment within an oligarchs super yacht to escape the UK...

Undercover work is all about hiding in plain sight, becoming and being just one of the crowd, incognito and not attracting any attention.

They did their job very well and it worked, they got away.

[SlowRap]

They did their job very well and it worked, they got away.

Considering

a. the target is still alive
b. their faces are plastered all over CCTV
c. they threw away the container in the local bin, which was found and an innocent person was killed
d. Massive embarrassment to the state and possible sanctions (if indeed it was the state that sanctioned the killing)

they're more chuckle brothers than spies

[TepidT2O]

Considering

a. the target is still alive
b. their faces are plastered all over CCTV
c. they threw away the container in the local bin, which was found and an innocent person was killed
d. Massive embarrassment to the state and possible sanctions (if indeed it was the state that sanctioned the killing)

they're more chuckle brothers than spies

Embarrassment? Russia isn’t embarrassed. This is the message they wanted.  We will killl you if you turn to the other side.

The target is still alive because they weren’t chemists and didn’t understand what would degrade the chemical.

[The Gulleysucker]

Considering

a. the target is still alive
b. their faces are plastered all over CCTV
c. they threw away the container in the local bin, which was found and an innocent person was killed
d. Massive embarrassment to the state and possible sanctions (if indeed it was the state that sanctioned the killing)

they're more chuckle brothers than spies

a. You are assuming only death was the intention. It was a message to any other opponents of Putin and his gangster chums.
b. And? Do you think they give a jot now they have left the UK? I expect those two have little intention of ever working in any country with an extradition treaty to the UK.
c. And? Do you think they cared about that or gave collateral damage a scond thought?
d. And? Shooting down an Airliner, Litvenko etc and you say embarrasment to the state? Come on...

No, not chuckle brothers, but trained professionals. They were not apprehended while undertaking their mission, nor was their escape out of the UK prevented, and it's only been after an enormous and likely very expensive trawl through all the collected evidence that they have become suspects.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Germanys ultra reliance on Russian energy  ?

Less than 10% of German energy is produced from  Russian gas.

[killer-heels]

Have the UK proved that these two worked for the GRU?

[classycarra]

Have the UK proved that these two worked for the GRU?

Yes, to a point where they have convinced other states involved in the UN security council too.

Of course, they haven't shown us the proof but that makes sense. It's not a maths exam, showing your working out might cause trouble for your intelligence services and assets

[killer-heels]

Yes, to a point where they have convinced other states involved in the UN security council too.

Of course, they haven't shown us the proof but that makes sense. It's not a maths exam, showing your working out might cause trouble for your intelligence services and assets

I would presume that who they are exactly, how they got in, how they were allowed to leave etc. would all be known and proven otherwise why give this info now.

[oldfordie]

Have the UK proved that these two worked for the GRU?

Lets assume they don't work for the GRU, they have somehow got hold of Novichok and they are acting alone. they know this is going to cause a s,,storm, they know the Russian authorities will crucify them for this attack, stolen Novichok, fallout for Russia itself.
They would do everything possible to conceal their identity.
They have flown in out direct from Moscow.
They have made no effort to conceal their identity while carrying out the attack.
They could of flown into the country without being disguised, the only time they needed to use a disguise is when carrying out the attack.
Why did they both have to go to reconnoiter Salisbury. 1 man does a quick check of the area, the other man goes alone to contaminate the door handles. both men under disguise, no connection to the 2 men who flew in from Moscow. it's the fact they have made no effort to even cover their tracks that tells us they acted on orders from the Russian State.

[classycarra]

I would presume that who they are exactly, how they got in, how they were allowed to leave etc. would all be known and proven otherwise why give this info now.

I think you'd be right in that presumption. And cross checks from other countries' security services have led them to consistent conclusions

[Qston]

Embarrassment? Russia isn’t embarrassed. This is the message they wanted.  We will killl you if you turn to the other side.

The target is still alive because they weren’t chemists and didn’t understand what would degrade the chemical.

Absolutely. The fact that the Skripal's didn`t die is incidental. It sends out a pretty strong message to any citizens who want to help their "enemies" and at the same time reinforces the narrative that it us against the world (actually - now I think about it, is Putin taking a leaf out of Jose's book or the other way around ? Jose will think it is him influencing international political discourse obviously !)

[killer-heels]

Lets assume they don't work for the GRU, they have somehow got hold of Novichok and they are acting alone. they know this is going to cause a s,,storm, they know the Russian authorities will crucify them for this attack, stolen Novichok, fallout for Russia itself.
They would do everything possible to conceal their identity.
They have flown in out direct from Moscow.
They have made no effort to conceal their identity while carrying out the attack.
They could of flown into the country without being disguised, the only time they needed to use a disguise is when carrying out the attack.
Why did they both have to go to reconnoiter Salisbury. 1 man does a quick check of the area, the other man goes alone to contaminate the door handles. both men under disguise, no connection to the 2 men who flew in from Moscow. it's the fact they have made no effort to even cover their tracks that tells us they acted on orders from the Russian State.

You would imagine that the government know or should know by now who exactly they are and who exactly they work for. Anything less then it would be silly to do what they have done in terms of finger pointing.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

If it wasn't state back then Russia would've been the last place they returned to,plus they would already be dead.

[The Gulleysucker]

You would imagine that the government know or should know by now who exactly they are and who exactly they work for. Anything less then it would be silly to do what they have done in terms of finger pointing.

That's clearly stated but unsaid, and will likely remain that way except for the eyes of certain privileged people.

The very act of of the Government revealing their internal sources or the way they have obtained the information that confirm these characters employees as within let's say Putins circle or the GRU, could then possibly jeopardize not only the source, but also perhaps instead lead to the source or the means employed, being identified and then being turned to provide us with false information in the future.

It's a complicated chess game, played at many levels, and never simple.

[oldfordie]

You would imagine that the government know or should know by now who exactly they are and who exactly they work for. Anything less then it would be silly to do what they have done in terms of finger pointing.

If we are trying to discover who was behind the attack then it doesn't matter who the individuals are, who sent them is what matters. passports were probably issued under a false name. why would Russia send someone into the UK who might arouse suspicion with a bottle of Novichok. the Russians don't give a toss about us finding out who was behind the attack after they are out the country but they would have made sure they were above suspicion while in the country which makes me think we haven't got a clue who they are.
Not that it matters anyway, you dont need to know the names of the soldiers when they attack us, we only need to prove who sent them. the mass of evidence leaves us in no doubt.

[killer-heels]

If we are trying to discover who was behind the attack then it doesn't matter who the individuals are, who sent them is what matters. passports were probably issued under a false name. why would Russia send someone into the UK who might arouse suspicion with a bottle of Novichok. the Russians don't give a toss about us finding out who was behind the attack after they are out the country but they would have made sure they were above suspicion while in the country which makes me think we haven't got a clue who they are.
Not that it matters anyway, you dont need to know the names of the soldiers when they attack us, we only need to prove who sent them. the mass of evidence leaves us in no doubt.

Knowing who they are will probably tell us who sent them. Russians have a visa process here so you wonder how not only they got in and more importantly how they got out.