Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[MrButler]

Think some of the best shows come in these difficult moments, enjoyed the main show

[GreatEx]

Yeah, good show, only minor complaint is that Rob keeps misusing the term "risk averse", he's done it in multiple pods

[Big Bamber]

Yeah, good show, only minor complaint is that Rob keeps misusing the term "risk averse", he's done it in multiple pods

Yes he means ‘less risk averse’ when he says ‘risk averse’. Neil also uses ‘game theory’ in an odd way.

[BobPaisley3]

Yeah, brilliant show. Ian Ryan, ably assisted by Rob, superb. He completely nails it regarding the age of the squad and the recent transfer policy.

[red_Mark1980]

Atko on football is for everyone "it's not for me at the moment"

 

[KillieRed]

A word for Amelia(?)’s story about calling out the shameless racist behind her at the match. Incredibly disappointing that she didn’t get more vocal support from fellow fans at the time, but at least the stewards reacted to the complaint about him. We’ve all heard these shouts at the match over the years, but I was kinda hoping they were dying away completely. Even more disappointing somehow when it’s “one of your own”.

[Ghost Town]

Yeah, brilliant show. Ian Ryan, ably assisted by Rob, superb. He completely nails it regarding the age of the squad and the recent transfer policy.

But he still makes the error of talking about 'selling' players, 'releasing' players, 'moving players on' as if it's as easy as pressing a button. His error is further compounded because Neil had already clearly and accurately outlined the problem: that Liverpool is a place where players want to be, want to stay; Klopp is a manger players want to play for for. Almost no one wants to leave; Coutinho, Can and Mané are rareities in that regard.

We can't have it both ways. If we think Liverpool FC is this amazing, world renowned club unlike any other and that Klopp is the best manager in the world and the best guy to play for, with his hugs and his improvement of players, and that Anfield is the most amazing stadium around and that the fans (when we're on it) are the best in the world that a full Anfield when it's on song is a mesmerising cauldron unlike any other, etc...then we can't act surprised that players who join us want to stay and can't just be 'moved on' at the drop of a hat.

They have contracts. They want to stay. It's very difficult to move them on if they don't want to.

And this impacts transfers in two ways: firstly because we have a congested squad already so bringing new players into it while existing squad members don't want to move away is problematic in itself both in terms of sqaud congestion and wages. If we were infinitely wealthy we could just keep buying players and leave the 'unwanted' ones out of named squads, but still paying their wages, of course, and not notice it. But we can't do that.

And secondly, because we know that players who join tend to want to stay until their contract ends, it means we have to be careful whom we buy. Every player we buy becomes another one who potentially won't move on until contract end, thus creating more of the same problem. That's one reason, I think, why Klopp says we have to get the right player now; because if we get someone who doesn't work out then we're stuck with them, and their presence will make buying the next right player harder. This didn't apply so much back in the early days of the Klopp revolution, when the squad needed building up, hence we could take more punts (Gini, Matip and Robbo were three mentioned as the sort of player we are less likely to buy now).

All of this is important and needs to be bourne in mind, which is why whenever anyone just says 'we should move X, Y and Z on' as if it's that easy, it's always a sign, to me, that they haven't thought it through. that it's just transfer talk without taking stock of the complexities.

tl;dr: Neil was right on this issue, Ian less so.

[redk84]

Didn't disagree with much of what Ian Ryan said on the main show. Nailed it.

snip

None of what you said is incorrect.
None of it is new to successful football clubs either...I can't speak for everyone but I was always curious as to what the next step was for us after finally achieving all that we did, how and if we could build upon our success.

Obviously some things went wrong in whatever our plans were - unforeseen as well as things that could have been helped.
I dunno, people just seem mad at the fans trying to make sense of it (not just you) and for all the complexity you can see in how transfers are in football surely you can understand that when a team as good as we have been in the last few seasons shows cracks it will effect people in different ways?

If it's not insulting to the players or manager there's snippets of food for thought in quite a few of these opinions. Otherwise there is no point of podcasts or forums imo right?

[Ghost Town]

None of what you said is incorrect.
None of it is new to successful football clubs either...I can't speak for everyone but I was always curious as to what the next step was for us after finally achieving all that we did, how and if we could build upon our success.

Obviously some things went wrong in whatever our plans were - unforeseen as well as things that could have been helped.

I think while we're on the subject, there are two developments that we either didn't foresee or which we didn't fully appreciate the potential effects of.

First is that there's quietly been a paradigm shift in the way players, and especially their agents, view contracts and career paths. Most of us are still used to the traditonal, standard idea of player movement which was:

Player joins club
Player stays if he is getting regular game time and doing well and is wanted by the management
Player agitates to move on if 'better' club comes in for him; if so club gets Transfer Fee.
If Player is not getting enough minutes or feels unwanted, Player elects to move on rather than sit on the bench all the time. Again club gets Transfer Fee.

That was a simple and easily comprehensible system that ensured pretty constant turnover of players, regular income from Transfer Fees and rarely led to squad congestion.

In recent years, however, there's been a change in practice that has led to more and more players seeing out their contracts in full and leaving on a free. This has impacted the amount of transfer fees recouped but has also led to sqauds becoming congested with players who choose not to move on, making it harder for normally-funded (non sugar daddy/state) clubs to cash-in on them and use the money to replace them.

This change has been happening for some time, starting with the biggest name players but is now affecting many 'mid' level players as well.

For LFC this has been compunded by the second unforseen issue, namely, that we have become a victim of our own success. LFC has become so great, so desirable a destination that players, once here, don't want to leave. Similarly Klopp has gained such a reputation for bossness that again players don't want to leave. And thirdly as Neil mentioned, Klopp has created such a 'togetherness' in the squad, such a Band of Brothers spirit, that again, no-one wants to leave and lose that until they have to.

Many of our players know that they are at the best club they will ever play at, under the best coach who will ever manage them, with the best gang of team-mates and closeness and togetherness that they'll ever experience. Of course they don't want to leave. It's downhill whichever way they look. And so they'd rather stay as long as they can and then leave on a free when they have to, always hoping, of course, that a new contract might be in the offing if they play well.

I don't think we really expected this, nor the impact it would have on wages and future transfers. When Kloppo was talking over the summer about the 9 midfielders etc I think part of what he was alluding to was exactly this: we have a full contingent of midfielders already, whom we are paying wages to and will have to carry on paying wages to because none of them are looking to leave until their contracts run out. So bringing another in on top of that is not easy, as if he's not absolutely right he'll end up being yet another wage-earner joining the backlog of players who are not quite what we really need but who aren't going to leave.

I'm not saying I agree with the choice they seemed to have made (to buy no-one) but I do think this aspect of it tends to go unrecognised in the rush to condemn.

[BobPaisley3]

But he still makes the error of talking about 'selling' players, 'releasing' players, 'moving players on' as if it's as easy as pressing a button. His error is further compounded because Neil had already clearly and accurately outlined the problem: that Liverpool is a place where players want to be, want to stay; Klopp is a manger players want to play for for. Almost no one wants to leave; Coutinho, Can and Mané are rareities in that regard.

We can't have it both ways. If we think Liverpool FC is this amazing, world renowned club unlike any other and that Klopp is the best manager in the world and the best guy to play for, with his hugs and his improvement of players, and that Anfield is the most amazing stadium around and that the fans (when we're on it) are the best in the world that a full Anfield when it's on song is a mesmerising cauldron unlike any other, etc...then we can't act surprised that players who join us want to stay and can't just be 'moved on' at the drop of a hat.

They have contracts. They want to stay. It's very difficult to move them on if they don't want to.

And this impacts transfers in two ways: firstly because we have a congested squad already so bringing new players into it while existing squad members don't want to move away is problematic in itself both in terms of sqaud congestion and wages. If we were infinitely wealthy we could just keep buying players and leave the 'unwanted' ones out of named squads, but still paying their wages, of course, and not notice it. But we can't do that.

And secondly, because we know that players who join tend to want to stay until their contract ends, it means we have to be careful whom we buy. Every player we buy becomes another one who potentially won't move on until contract end, thus creating more of the same problem. That's one reason, I think, why Klopp says we have to get the right player now; because if we get someone who doesn't work out then we're stuck with them, and their presence will make buying the next right player harder. This didn't apply so much back in the early days of the Klopp revolution, when the squad needed building up, hence we could take more punts (Gini, Matip and Robbo were three mentioned as the sort of player we are less likely to buy now).

All of this is important and needs to be bourne in mind, which is why whenever anyone just says 'we should move X, Y and Z on' as if it's that easy, it's always a sign, to me, that they haven't thought it through. that it's just transfer talk without taking stock of the complexities.

tl;dr: Neil was right on this issue, Ian less so.

Ian was spot on. There are players in the squad who should have been sold and while you’re right about players wanting to be part of the club, football is a results business and once a player isn’t considered of the standard required, we should be honest and up front. Maybe our valuations were too high and we decided against selling but it’s clearly come at a cost where we’re left with a squad that is unable to play in the style Klopp wants. Ian also discussed a complete lack of planning in terms of incomings and again, he’s right. In fact Neil himself alluded to the fact that he’s been crying out for a while now for players in the 22-25 age bracket because we don’t have many. That is now coming home to roost. Whichever way it’s spun, we’ve completely dropped the ball on transfers in and out over the last couple of years.

[Ghost Town]

Ian was spot on. There are players in the squad who should have been sold and while you’re right about players wanting to be part of the club, football is a results business and once a player isn’t considered of the standard required, we should be honest and up front. Maybe our valuations were too high and we decided against selling but it’s clearly come at a cost where we’re left with a squad that is unable to play in the style Klopp wants. Ian also discussed a complete lack of planning in terms of incomings and again, he’s right. In fact Neil himself alluded to the fact that he’s been crying out for a while now for players in the 22-25 age bracket because we don’t have many. That is now coming home to roost. Whichever way it’s spun, we’ve completely dropped the ball on transfers in and out over the last couple of years.

Those things are not what I was referring to. The point is that even given that the club and Klopp want to sell a player, how do you sell a player who doesn't want to leave? It's nothing to do with our valuations or our wish to sell or not, it's the players' wish to leave or stay that is the point here.

And therefore Ian, and anyone else who just says 'we should have sold...' are ignoring the very pertinent fact that 'should have' is meaningless unless the player in question chooses to leave. And in our case it seems like hardly any of the main players except the two or three excceptions, have chosen to leave before their contracts were up.

It seems bizarre to me that people still treat selling a player like pressing a button marked 'sell'. In reality (though none of us know the facts for sure) I suspect the club would have loved to have 'moved on' a number of players over the last few years, and I expect Klopp would have agreed, as well. Yet mostly they're still here.

I'd go as far as to say that the notion of clubs 'choosing to sell' players is almost meaningless now. All they can do is politely ask a player if he wouldn't mind moving on. Never before have players had as much power, and clubs as little, regarding transfers, as is currently the case.

[red_Mark1980]

A word for Amelia(?)’s story about calling out the shameless racist behind her at the match. Incredibly disappointing that she didn’t get more vocal support from fellow fans at the time, but at least the stewards reacted to the complaint about him. We’ve all heard these shouts at the match over the years, but I was kinda hoping they were dying away completely. Even more disappointing somehow when it’s “one of your own”.

You're absolutely right. It's awful the thing I took away was Neil being funny (that's not a slight on him, I'd argue he goes and went full on that kind of shithouse behaviour. He just really made me giggle in work on a tough day).

Fair play to her for standing up and to TAW for giving her the platform. I really don't recall ever hearing anything overtly racist in my time.

I've absolutely heard Munich chants and challenged people on that, but would have hoped more people would have stood up for Emilia.


Also get that Napoli fan back on. Bad ted him.


Fifteen Guinness a day in the woods. Ben Jonno on everything forever

[GreatEx]

While I agree that moving contracted players on is difficult, and while Klopp is the best manager and LFC one of the most desirable clubs in the world, I think we shouldn't get too carried away sucking ourselves off about how no one could possibly want to leave. If Jurgen sits a player down and says he has no future here and should look for a new home, it would be a rare player that says "no worries gaffer, it's just nice to be here". Players want to play, they want to stay in the frame for international selection, they want their image on TV, etc. I think there could be a few contributing factors to our inability to move players on. It could be that Jurgen genuinely values them all. But also there's the issue of continental leagues struggling financially while the EPL has left them all behind. That has drastically shrunk the pool of clubs that can afford our players with their elite wages, while the increased spending power of English clubs drives up transfer fees and wage demands we have to pay.

[Alisson Wonderland]

That was possibly the funniest post match show in a while.  From drinking Guiness in the woods and Curtis blinking off his eye injury to Dion Dublin on Homes Under the Hammer and Andy Bell’s shorts.  Topped off by Neil turning up at the end looking like he’d either been swimming or been missing for years 

Definitely wetted the appetite for another EPL or Agony show with Ben Johnson.

[redk84]

Those things are not what I was referring to. The point is that even given that the club and Klopp want to sell a player, how do you sell a player who doesn't want to leave? It's nothing to do with our valuations or our wish to sell or not, it's the players' wish to leave or stay that is the point here.

And therefore Ian, and anyone else who just says 'we should have sold...' are ignoring the very pertinent fact that 'should have' is meaningless unless the player in question chooses to leave. And in our case it seems like hardly any of the main players except the two or three excceptions, have chosen to leave before their contracts were up.

It seems bizarre to me that people still treat selling a player like pressing a button marked 'sell'. In reality (though none of us know the facts for sure) I suspect the club would have loved to have 'moved on' a number of players over the last few years, and I expect Klopp would have agreed, as well. Yet mostly they're still here.

I'd go as far as to say that the notion of clubs 'choosing to sell' players is almost meaningless now. All they can do is politely ask a player if he wouldn't mind moving on. Never before have players had as much power, and clubs as little, regarding transfers, as is currently the case.

This is all under the presumption that most players want to stay here.
We just don't know that even if we can't see any reason why players would leave the environment klopp created here

I agree that players are seemingly running down their contracts to opt for big signing on fees in the next club, their agents will obviously like this too.
But I'm sure that billion-pound clubs like ours know how to react to this developing situation and are not just at the mercy of players and their agents - there's too much money at stake even if it isn't as romantic as purely footballing reasons that would drive them.

To bring it back to my original point....successful clubs have had to deal with this issue for an age - everyone likes to be part of a winning team.
We've been on top or competing there for a few years now, we must have had plans to evolve our team, we must have therefore had an idea on how we would move players on and how it all fits financially - I don't think we had plans in place on how to improve which came to a stop because suddenly nobody wanted to leave and we were stumped (extreme, but you get my point?)

[Thiago12291]

Loved the post match show, Ben Jonno always great.

God only knows why they insist on persisting with James Sutton tho, christ

[The Lord Admiral]

Just wanted to note that The Review is the best 45 minutes of punditry in the country in my view. Absolutely brilliant every time, and I for one enjoy the boxing analogies. Worth the Ł10 a month on its own.

Do miss Gareth on the other shows though, hope he's doing well.

[cdav]

Just wanted to note that The Review is the best 45 minutes of punditry in the country in my view. Absolutely brilliant every time, and I for one enjoy the boxing analogies. Worth the Ł10 a month on its own.

Do miss Gareth on the other shows though, hope he's doing well.

Thought the Fabinho chat on the Napoli review was really insightful, plus the discussion on the balance between physicality and creativity in the team

[Fitzy.]

Thought the Fabinho chat on the Napoli review was really insightful, plus the discussion on the balance between physicality and creativity in the team

Yeah. I've always been wary of football chat that obsesses about having lots of big men as it has the potential to be a bit 'proper football man' - the kind of thing Keys and Gray love. However, there's nuance to the discussion in that creativity, skill and guile are still central to the requirements...you just want to be able to handle yourself at the same time. A good balance struck on the Review.

[Pistolero]

Do miss Gareth on the other shows though, hope he's doing well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KIxuZeS158

[Thiago12291]

Absolutely fantastic win, gutted I couldn't put on the post match show wiry my lad on the way home due to Having Kev Walsh on, assuming it was effing this and effing that every two mins again.

He's 14 and obviously some language can be let go but it's always been every other word with Kev.

Maybe it's me in the wrong, I don't know. Just doesn't sit well

[Kenny's Jacket]

Absolutely fantastic win, gutted I couldn't put on the post match show wiry my lad on the way home due to Having Kev Walsh on, assuming it was effing this and effing that every two mins again.

He's 14 and obviously some language can be let go but it's always been every other word with Kev.

Maybe it's me in the wrong, I don't know. Just doesn't sit well

I got 20 seconds in, realised it was going to be dominated by Kev me Walsh and turned off.
Hopefully Neil has some decent contributors on the PMP.
I miss Gareth .

[Thiago12291]

I got 20 seconds in, realised it was going to be dominated by Kev me Walsh and turned off.
Hopefully Neil has some decent contributors on the PMP.
I miss Gareth .

Really don't like moaning about specific contributers as variety is the spice of life etc but to be called moaning twats and being laughed at during the opening of the show for not liking Kevs frankly disgusting language is poor all told

[DangerScouse]

Absolutely fantastic win, gutted I couldn't put on the post match show wiry my lad on the way home due to Having Kev Walsh on, assuming it was effing this and effing that every two mins again.

He's 14 and obviously some language can be let go but it's always been every other word with Kev.

Maybe it's me in the wrong, I don't know. Just doesn't sit well

Does he wear ear muffs during matches? I've no doubt he'd hear much worse in the ground.

[Thiago12291]

Does he wear ear muffs during matches? I've no doubt he'd hear much worse in the ground.

It's really not the same thing is it

[Hij]

Absolutely fantastic win, gutted I couldn't put on the post match show wiry my lad on the way home due to Having Kev Walsh on, assuming it was effing this and effing that every two mins again.

He's 14 and obviously some language can be let go but it's always been every other word with Kev.

Maybe it's me in the wrong, I don't know. Just doesn't sit well

Kev Walsh was on swearing? Brilliant, you've just sold me it, I'll be downloading immediately. I'll listen to it with my five year old daughter.

They're just words. Sounds out of mouths. My parenting can certainly be questioned but 14 years old mate? He's heard worse at school surely?

Edit: To clarify, I take my daughter the match, we listen to Jamie Webster's BOSS night music bits on Spotify, she comes to the pub with me - there is swearing all around us. I try to teach her that this language is clearly only to be used around Dad and at the football, and thus far she sticks by it. Much worse things that I would rather she didn't experience myself. It's a post match show, after a gigantic win, after several alcoholic beverages have been consumed. That's sort of the name of the game.

[Thiago12291]

Kev Walsh was on swearing? Brilliant, you've just sold me it, I'll be downloading immediately. I'll listen to it with my five year old daughter.

They're just words. Sounds out of mouths. My parenting can certainly be questioned but 14 years old mate? He's heard worse at school surely?

Edit: To clarify, I take my daughter the match, we listen to Jamie Webster's BOSS night music bits on Spotify, she comes to the pub with me - there is swearing all around us. I try to teach her that this language is clearly only to be used around Dad and at the football, and thus far she sticks by it. Much worse things that I would rather she didn't experience myself. It's a post match show, after a gigantic win, after several alcoholic beverages have been consumed. That's sort of the name of the game.

Sigh, just one tit swearing 40 times in 25 minutes tho isn't there. Guessing he should be allowed into 18 rated films at the cinema etc because he probably hears and sees worse on his phone.

[Thiago12291]

Sigh, just one tit swearing 40 times in 25 minutes tho isn't there. Guessing he should be allowed into 18 rated films at the cinema etc because he probably hears and sees worse on his phone.

Also to add, don't think my thoughts on it are any more right or wrong than what you allow your daughter to listen too but it's a shame that he can't listen to tonight's show as I don't allow him to listen to one contributers constant language.

[Hij]

Sigh, just one tit swearing 40 times in 25 minutes tho isn't there. Guessing he should be allowed into 18 rated films at the cinema etc because he probably hears and sees worse on his phone.

Pretty big difference between 18 rated films and the football and pubs though for me mate but you're welcome to self censor your son if you want to of course which you have done. Gore, violence, sex, drugs etc I find massively different to words that are spoken naturally. Words are just sounds out of mouths to me- I dunno mate.

"We've won the fucking lot"
"And you made Barca look like shite"
"He's big and he's fucking hard"

Dunno how you're driving back from the game and worried about the swear words afterward? If you were that bothered you wouldn't take him at all.

[Hij]

Also to add, don't think my thoughts on it are any more right or wrong than what you allow your daughter to listen too but it's a shame that he can't listen to tonight's show as I don't allow him to listen to one contributers constant language.

Fair enough- I can't argue with that mate, it's entirely up to you fella - but as a guy who listens to the Wrap when I can't get tickets to away games I want to hear it 100% from the pub/car if they've been (or the pub if they've not) and that's why I pay my subscription.

[Thiago12291]

Fair enough- I can't argue with that mate, it's entirely up to you fella - but as a guy who listens to the Wrap when I can't get tickets to away games I want to hear it 100% from the pub/car if they've been (or the pub if they've not) and that's why I pay my subscription.

Yeah agree to disagree mate. Mainly looking forward to the review now 

[Hij]

Yeah agree to disagree mate. Mainly looking forward to the review now 

You'd hope he won't be on that

[Thiago12291]

You'd hope he won't be on that

'fucking conte played a fucking low block' etc   

[Redbonnie]

I think while we're on the subject, there are two developments that we either didn't foresee or which we didn't fully appreciate the potential effects of.

First is that there's quietly been a paradigm shift in the way players, and especially their agents, view contracts and career paths. Most of us are still used to the traditonal, standard idea of player movement which was:

Player joins club
Player stays if he is getting regular game time and doing well and is wanted by the management
Player agitates to move on if 'better' club comes in for him; if so club gets Transfer Fee.
If Player is not getting enough minutes or feels unwanted, Player elects to move on rather than sit on the bench all the time. Again club gets Transfer Fee.

That was a simple and easily comprehensible system that ensured pretty constant turnover of players, regular income from Transfer Fees and rarely led to squad congestion.

In recent years, however, there's been a change in practice that has led to more and more players seeing out their contracts in full and leaving on a free. This has impacted the amount of transfer fees recouped but has also led to sqauds becoming congested with players who choose not to move on, making it harder for normally-funded (non sugar daddy/state) clubs to cash-in on them and use the money to replace them.

This change has been happening for some time, starting with the biggest name players but is now affecting many 'mid' level players as well.

For LFC this has been compunded by the second unforseen issue, namely, that we have become a victim of our own success. LFC has become so great, so desirable a destination that players, once here, don't want to leave. Similarly Klopp has gained such a reputation for bossness that again players don't want to leave. And thirdly as Neil mentioned, Klopp has created such a 'togetherness' in the squad, such a Band of Brothers spirit, that again, no-one wants to leave and lose that until they have to.

Many of our players know that they are at the best club they will ever play at, under the best coach who will ever manage them, with the best gang of team-mates and closeness and togetherness that they'll ever experience. Of course they don't want to leave. It's downhill whichever way they look. And so they'd rather stay as long as they can and then leave on a free when they have to, always hoping, of course, that a new contract might be in the offing if they play well.

I don't think we really expected this, nor the impact it would have on wages and future transfers. When Kloppo was talking over the summer about the 9 midfielders etc I think part of what he was alluding to was exactly this: we have a full contingent of midfielders already, whom we are paying wages to and will have to carry on paying wages to because none of them are looking to leave until their contracts run out. So bringing another in on top of that is not easy, as if he's not absolutely right he'll end up being yet another wage-earner joining the backlog of players who are not quite what we really need but who aren't going to leave.

I'm not saying I agree with the choice they seemed to have made (to buy no-one) but I do think this aspect of it tends to go unrecognised in the rush to condemn.

Great post

[Crosby Nick]

That Derby fan previewing the game was great.

And great video with Virgil and Joel and Chris Best. Love stuff like that.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheAnfieldWrap/status/1590287047788761088

[Dougle]

That Derby fan previewing the game was great.

And great video with Virgil and Joel and Chris Best. Love stuff like that.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheAnfieldWrap/status/1590287047788761088

Ooopmh.... That video got me.

[John C]

Superb.

[bradders1011]

Anyone else getting some reverb on the shows this week or just me?

[red annie]

Anyone else getting some reverb on the shows this week or just me?

Can't get anything at all. No pink or post match review

[kavah]

^ yes. The apps not working.
Edit
Ok now