Author Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?  (Read 56562 times)

Offline royhendo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #40 on: June 1, 2022, 08:06:49 am »
What is this “not scoring in three finals” thing? Where has it come from?
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #41 on: June 1, 2022, 08:08:59 am »
Last season I truly believed that we were in trouble . Our first front 3 were approaching 30, back 3 had long term injuries and we had a poor season . But we bounced back and came close to unprecedented levels of success .

So are the bits below somewhat the product of a disappointed mind following events in the last 8 days or things requiring a deep level of reflection ?

1. Despite having won everything under klopp , we have only won one final in 90 minutes against a poor spurs in a match where Allison was MoM.
2. Our midfield in both finals we lost against Madrid lacked creativity . Is this an area we need to strengthen given age profiles , inconsistency issues , potential ceilings in terms of ability and injury proneness ?
3. Diaz and Jota have polar opposite strengths and areas they need to work on . With Mane possibly leaving and Salah’s recent form do we again need to look at seriously strengthening here ?
4. Are we likely to spend the amounts we need to ? Elite number 10s and 9s don’t come cheaply . The next 4 seasons whilst klopp is with us and United are so far off challenging present a potentially golden opportunity to at least equal the 20 league titles . With city getting 2 excellent strikers we need to keep our level since January going and hit the ground running .

Your thoughts welcome .
I think our squad transition has been going pretty well so far but we need to be realistic.  I have no insider information on FSG's thinking but I expect they will think our squad is too heavy in terms of both potential starters (Diaz was surely intended as a summer replacement for one of Mane or Salah - Spurs forced our hand on that one) and squad players (Ox, Origi, Minamino etc.).  I'm really glad we did the domestic cup double as I don't see us seriously competing for them again anytime soon simply because we won't have the squad depth for it.

Klopp and some more shrewd business in the transfer market will keep us as contenders for the big trophies in the next few years.  Beyond that, who knows?  It feels like we're running at pretty much 100% of what can be done within the constraints of being a football business.  The non-business based clubs can keep moving the goalposts such that it may be impossible to compete unless those clubs have off seasons.

I don't want to nit-pick your initial post as I broadly agree but I don't agree with the first two points.  Alisson barely had a touch of the ball until after we went 2-0 up and Spurs started taking pot-shots.  In terms of influence on the game it was a long way from that of Courtois at the weekend.  Also, our midfield creativity wasn't a problem at the weekend as we ended up with an xG of over 2 (very good for a cup final and should have been enough to win the game).

Offline Caps4444

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #42 on: June 1, 2022, 08:13:06 am »
The difference between the quad this year and 'just' two cups was arguably the best GK performance in a CL final in 20 years and Villa shipping 3 goals in 10 mins.

True….but at the same time we were also a couple of a penalties away from being without Trophy.

Offline -Willo-

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #43 on: June 1, 2022, 08:34:18 am »
What is this “not scoring in three finals” thing? Where has it come from?

It is a bit mental to be fair, we scored a shit ton last season but when it came to the crunch, we didn't hit the next in 330 minutes of open play football in finals.




Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #44 on: June 1, 2022, 08:41:58 am »
Al, this is unchartered territory. To lump together 6 players is hyperbole.

Lets just consider 3 players. 3 players that joined in ‘15, 16 and 17. Collectively cost around £100m and have scored over 300 goals with all of them in the top 20 scorers of all time.
Firmino is 31 in October, so will be almost 32 when his contract ends.
Mane is 30 now and will be 31 when his contract ends. Same for Salah.

All 3 have signed contracts beyond their original which have rewarded them for performances, increased their pay and protected their value in their peak years. None to my knowledge have agitated for moves or become involved in transfer speculation. Given the quality of player and what used to routinely happen to our successful players, our summers have been stress free in terms of losing players that we didn’t want to lose.

All 3 have been virtually always available for us during their time here. Very few injuries, although the eldest of them Firmino has started to pick up a few more injuries of late. These lads have been virtually ever present, in a gruelling league, in a team with an intense style of play, that has played long seasons and won everything. They are all key members of their international teams which has added to their workload.

There was lots of crying on here about over reliance on the front 3 when it was just a 3, about succession planning etc. But in the last 2 years, we’ve gone and bought 2 players that now have valuable first team experience. That is the very essence of succession planning. We have Carvalho coming in the summer and I have no doubt we will be working on bringing in another forward player too.

There’s too much hype about letting players leave on a free. They have a book value of zero, so there’s no impact on the bottom line- this will be exactly what happens with VVD too by the way. Ok, so we lose out on a fee, but what we get in return is the player for another year of their peak years and we also get a chance to integrate replacements more slowly.

Finally, if we flip this and imagine that all 3 sign new deals. We’d have people worried about letting the squad get old together, about how much we were paying them, about risk of declining performances etc.
Maybe the business side of the club has told the football side that there’s enough £ to replace them as and when.

Just spend some time looking at their playing and scoring records, at what they’ve won, their current ages and tell me tat isn’t the best 100m we ever spent. I still think that one of them will be here boyond this contract by the way.

Offline sinnermichael

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #45 on: June 1, 2022, 08:45:46 am »
Cheating City Bastards weren’t responsible for us failing to beat Chelsea or Spurs, they weren’t responsible for us drawing with Brentford & Brighton. Cheats weren’t responsible for us not scoring in 3 finals. Wether teams should need 90+ points to win the the league is irrelevant. It’s the reality of what it takes to win now. There’s no point in saying “we should have won it with these points levels” we’re still losing. Stop looking to City and look at ourselves. We’ve lost the league on 2 occasions by a point in seasons where we drew too many games. Look at the tables and you’ll see the tale. We need to be cut throat and take games to teams. We were toothless in 3 finals. I don’t care about 9 chances in a game “should be enough to win” the reality is we lost.

We could get 112 points in the league next season, City win every game and people would still moan about the game we drew.

Offline royhendo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #46 on: June 1, 2022, 08:56:06 am »
It is a bit mental to be fair, we scored a shit ton last season but when it came to the crunch, we didn't hit the next in 330 minutes of open play football in finals.

This is the probabilistic analysis on the three finals by a colleague of Dr Phil Barter of AI Under Pressure (a Sports Science professional) https://twitter.com/AIUnderPressure/status/1531905027115307008



Most likely outcome was to score 7 goals given the volume of XG created.
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Offline -Willo-

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #47 on: June 1, 2022, 08:59:30 am »
This is the probabilistic analysis on the three finals by a colleague of Dr Phil Barter of AI Under Pressure (a Sports Science professional) https://twitter.com/AIUnderPressure/status/1531905027115307008

[img width=593 height=600]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUJrGDRWIAAK_XG?format=png&name=900x900[/mg]

Most likely outcome was to score 7 goals given the volume of XG created.

That makes it even more bizarre for me though, we had a total xG of 7 and scored 0 when it mattered the most.

Offline Fruity

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #48 on: June 1, 2022, 09:01:29 am »
Personally I feel pretty confident we can win the PL next season. It took us some time to fully get into our stride this season, mainly because of Virgil and others coming back into the side after injuries etc. I might be just hoping here but I feel we will be a more determined side from the off this season and City might not have that conviction early on but we will see.

So we just need to hit the ground running next season. All the players are getting a decent break for once as well. God knows what impact the Winter world cup will have though. Losing Mane could be an issue but if he does go I hope we can find a decent replacement for his goals and assists - that might be Diaz or it might need to be shared. There is barely anything between us and City but they are looking to improve and so must we. For the most part this season we have had a strong bench to call upon and if we want to compete we are still going to need that. Overall it is avoiding any major injuries and getting into a good rhythm early in the season. I do get the thing about the age of certain players but being able to rotate can keep good players fit and playing at a consistently high level.

The one thing that I do think is teams will be parking the bus against us like never before. So the addition of some creativity in our midfield would be good. Bobby did offer that in attack but has been hit hard with injuries this season.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #49 on: June 1, 2022, 09:11:30 am »
What is this “not scoring in three finals” thing? Where has it come from?

Its the new 'our goalkeeper has scored more than our back up striker'
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Circa1892

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #50 on: June 1, 2022, 09:16:55 am »
If we are the best run football operation, then how come we ended up with Salah, Mane and Bobby all with one year left and none of them signing a new deal, Roy ?

Origi is leaving on a free this season and Ox and Keita have one year left as well.

Over the next 12 months, we could feasibly see 6 attacking players leave on a free.

Because of the volumes of money going through a club like ours - sometimes selling players can be barely worth it.

Lets use Origi as an example. Without him we drop at least 2 points this year (Wolves), quite possibly 4 (Everton). That could quite conceivably have won us the league. The extra money alone from that would more than outweight the £7-10m we'd have got last summer...

Offline Circa1892

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #51 on: June 1, 2022, 09:18:37 am »
Cheating City Bastards weren’t responsible for us failing to beat Chelsea or Spurs, they weren’t responsible for us drawing with Brentford & Brighton.

The expectation of perfection over a season is ludicrous. You can't go a 38 game season without having disappointing results. Yes some of them (the Brighton one in particular) were poor - but it just happens. Even to PSG, Bayern etc.

Offline meady1981

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #52 on: June 1, 2022, 09:21:14 am »
The two keepers faced on the finals are two of the best shot stoppers in the world.
And our best shot stopper in the world let in 1 goal.
End of discussion.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #53 on: June 1, 2022, 09:27:44 am »
Because of the volumes of money going through a club like ours - sometimes selling players can be barely worth it.

Lets use Origi as an example. Without him we drop at least 2 points this year (Wolves), quite possibly 4 (Everton). That could quite conceivably have won us the league. The extra money alone from that would more than outweight the £7-10m we'd have got last summer...

It'd be fascinating to know exactly when we should have sold Mane and Salah. Last summer, with Sadio coming off the back of a bit of a poor one (by his standards) and in hindsight....just before maybe his best season for us, and another beast season for Mo? January?

I think what Al sometimes struggles with (and he's not alone in it, there's no shame or embarrassment attached), is that you can't force a player to sign a contract, nor can you force a player to leave, and nor can you force another club to make a bid for a certain player. Gini is a good example, would we have finished 3rd last season without him? Considering how often he played, there's a fair chance we wouldn't and that would have cost the club a lot more than the piddly amount we might have got in the summer of 2020 for him. And he went to PSG for the highest offer. He doesn't get that if he leaves for a fee.

If you weigh up what we could have got for Sadio last summer versus now, what's the difference? £20/30 million? And for that we've had one of, if not his best, seasons for us. Where he's scored some huge goals, contributed massively to winning trophies. The whole 'the club should have sold them if they didn't want to sign a new contract' is absolutely obliterated by what we nearly did this season.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Xink

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #54 on: June 1, 2022, 09:32:01 am »
We lost 4 games in 63.

We played literally every game we could have.

We averaged 2.4 goals A GAME in the league.

Our xg is the three finals this year was +7.

I think changing ideas now is madness.

The difference between the quad this year and 'just' two cups was arguably the best GK performance in a CL final in 20 years and Villa shipping 3 goals in 10 mins.

Not quite sure I'd go as far to say best GK Final performance in 20 years
1 world class save from Mane - with a bit of luck off the post.
An assured save from Salah when the gap was quite tight and he literally had nowhere else to put it.
Everything else was a mixture of half chances, snatched shots and powderpuff finishing in my opinion.
60 shots on targets in 3 cup finals with zero goals  tells its own story...

Offline royhendo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #55 on: June 1, 2022, 09:42:03 am »
To the original poster, apologies because you'll be wondering what's going on in relation to your specific questions. We do this discussion a lot - it's about whether you have faith in the way the club is managed. There's always two sides to a discussion, although it seems the club actually has to win all four trophies for it to be possible that it's well managed.

So

1. Despite having won everything under klopp , we have only won one final in 90 minutes against a poor spurs in a match where Allison was MoM.

"We have won everything under Klopp" is what I've read there.

2. Our midfield in both finals we lost against Madrid lacked creativity . Is this an area we need to strengthen given age profiles , inconsistency issues , potential ceilings in terms of ability and injury proneness ?

See above about the chance creation. So no, but of course yes - we can always rebuild and improve.

3. Diaz and Jota have polar opposite strengths and areas they need to work on . With Mane possibly leaving and Salah’s recent form do we again need to look at seriously strengthening here ?

No they don't. They profile in an almost identical way in fact - one is just a bit of a scruffy footballer in style and a better finisher, one is more swashbuckling in style and could work on his finishing. He's also not had a pre-season with us.

4. Are we likely to spend the amounts we need to ? Elite number 10s and 9s don’t come cheaply . The next 4 seasons whilst klopp is with us and United are so far off challenging present a potentially golden opportunity to at least equal the 20 league titles . With city getting 2 excellent strikers we need to keep our level since January going and hit the ground running .

Yes, and we have the luxury now of choosing how we invest the money. The pandemic was a real blow for us, and we also have oil fuelled clubs distorting the transfer market, and Ballon D'or nominees in our ranks (the price of success I guess). So the rebuild is gonna be one we have to just watch and learn from I guess.
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Offline lamonti

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #56 on: June 1, 2022, 09:55:42 am »
Last season I truly believed that we were in trouble . Our first front 3 were approaching 30, back 3 had long term injuries and we had a poor season . But we bounced back and came close to unprecedented levels of success .

So are the bits below somewhat the product of a disappointed mind following events in the last 8 days or things requiring a deep level of reflection ?

1. Despite having won everything under klopp , we have only won one final in 90 minutes against a poor spurs in a match where Allison was MoM.
2. Our midfield in both finals we lost against Madrid lacked creativity . Is this an area we need to strengthen given age profiles , inconsistency issues , potential ceilings in terms of ability and injury proneness ?
3. Diaz and Jota have polar opposite strengths and areas they need to work on . With Mane possibly leaving and Salah’s recent form do we again need to look at seriously strengthening here ?
4. Are we likely to spend the amounts we need to ? Elite number 10s and 9s don’t come cheaply . The next 4 seasons whilst klopp is with us and United are so far off challenging present a potentially golden opportunity to at least equal the 20 league titles . With city getting 2 excellent strikers we need to keep our level since January going and hit the ground running .

Your thoughts welcome .

I don't think much of this is untrue, I just don't think most of it matters that much.

We need to beat teams who are by and large worse week-in, week-out. City are going to beat most of those teams and have the rare hiccup every now and again. To beat them we gotta do that, just a tiny bit better. Their marginal gains are even more difficult to procure than ours are. If they're so much better than us, why are they one goal away from losing the title from 14 points up?

We play City three times this season and drew 2-2, drew 2-2 and won 3-2. We lost narrowly to Real in extremely weird circumstances. "Didn't score in two finals vs Chelsea" is completely irrelevant, we won those finals. That's just you reading too much opposition fan talking points on Twitter.

Yep, it's gonna be really, really, really hard. But that's how it is.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #57 on: June 1, 2022, 10:06:00 am »
I'm not being unfair to the OP, because he(she) raises some valid questions, but the one about not scoring in finals I think is a bit of an overreaction. My own eye test told me that we created enough chances to win all 3 and the figures above prove it. The one time we didn't really look like scoring in my view was H2 in the final last Saturday. Who knows whether the players were affected by what had clearly gone on?

Finals are about coming back with the cup, it doesn't matter how you do it. Finals are also rarely clear cut simple routine wins. We've dogged finals, as have some of our main rivals.

Edit: apologies, it was more about only winning 1 final in 90 mins. My comments still stand, but if you had to pick one eh?
« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 10:17:23 am by Charlie Adams fried egg »

Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #58 on: June 1, 2022, 10:12:21 am »
Finals are hard.

Honestly have a look at a list of CL, FA Cup and EFL Cup Finals. European Cup Finals for example, the most common score by a distance is 1-0. Its even harder when you're facing two of the most expensively assembled squads of all time, with good managers, experienced players, whose main ambition in the game is to stop us from playing. Over two legs thats negated a little bit, but in a one off game its a lot tougher. AND the goalkeepers we've faced in those finals have been the oppositions best player in each game.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #59 on: June 1, 2022, 10:12:48 am »
To me it's a very simple point. All teams need to evolve in some respects in order to push slightly further the next season.

There'll be a point where the technical staff and manager all sit down and have a look at what things they did really well and what they didn't do well, and in particular where they can improve so that we pick up more points next year. This might involve recruitment, but it may also just involve training, rest schedules, rotation and so many other things.

Suffice to say, the LFC we see next season will be every so slightly different to the one we saw this season. Hopefully, it'll be different enough to win 4 titles but we'll just have to stick around and find out.


Offline NewfoundRed

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #60 on: June 1, 2022, 10:39:00 am »
We could get 112 points in the league next season, City win every game and people would still moan about the game we drew.

Sorry, can’t help myself at times. If we got 112 points, the most City could get is 109. They would have lost and drawn against us.

I think your point still stands though.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #61 on: June 1, 2022, 10:41:08 am »
It is true that we have a lot of our top players nearing the ends of their contracts.

However players running down their contracts also seems to be the way of things more widely, especially post-Covid, and with the big foreign clubs who might normally come in with the big fees for these players in financial difficulties. I know it means we lose the selling-on fees, but it also means clearing some of the biggest wages off the books, and the way I see it we have already more then got our moneys worth out of the initial transfer fees we paid.

But that aside I can already see the nucleus of our next league winning team emerging. No way Klopp would have extended to 2026 without some clear ideas in mind of what we will do post-Salah/Mane/Firmino, and god forbid, Van Dijk!

I honestly see us coming back strong and winning the LEague again next season. I can then see some of our big players leaving, and us going through a transitionary season where we might drop some more points then normal in the League, but still be well in contention for the Cups. And then we will start to see what our next title winning squad will look like.

Having not beat Chelsea in 90 minutes in the Domestic Cups and losing the European Cup Final honestly does not worry me too much. Chelsea were well matched against us as a unit. Some teams just will be. We already smashed City out of the water in the Semi to get to the FA Cup final. And we are hardly the first team to lose to Real Madrid in a European Cup final, as devastating as it was. This is just what happens at the buisiness end of a season, with over 60 games of football under our belts. You win some you lose some.



« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 11:14:04 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Greyfox

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #62 on: June 1, 2022, 10:44:43 am »
That makes it even more bizarre for me though, we had a total xG of 7 and scored 0 when it mattered the most.

"Expected Goals" is not "Actual Goals" - Xg needs some element of chao theory introduced into it? The participants in the event are humans, not cyborgs...

Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #63 on: June 1, 2022, 10:47:15 am »
It is true that we have a lot of our top players nearing the ends of their contracts.

However players running down their contracts also seems to be the way of things more widely, especially post-Covid, and with the big foreign clubs who might normally come in with the big fees for these players in financial difficulties.

But that aside I can already see the nucleus of our next league winning team emerging. No way Klopp would not have extended to 2026 without some clear ideas in mind of what we will do post-Salah/Mane/Firmino, and god forbid, Van Dijk!

I honestly see us coming back strong and winning the LEague again next season. I can then see some of our big players leaving, and us going through a transitionary season where we might drop some more points then normal in the League, but still be well in contention for the Cups. And then we will start to see what our next title winning squad will look like.

Its a bit exaggerated for me.

Salah, Mane and Firmino were always going to be the tricky ones, who we extended, if we sold, if we let them expire.

Origi was always going to leave at the end of his contract

Milner is of an age where its always going to be short term contracts and its a question if he extends or not (I think he will)

Naby was always going to be 50/50 considering until this season he's been so injury prone, there would have been carnage on here if we'd given him a new contract last summer

Ox similar, but even more likely to be sold (and I'm not sure anyone would class him as one of our top players)
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #64 on: June 1, 2022, 10:49:32 am »
Finals are hard.

Honestly have a look at a list of CL, FA Cup and EFL Cup Finals. European Cup Finals for example, the most common score by a distance is 1-0. Its even harder when you're facing two of the most expensively assembled squads of all time, with good managers, experienced players, whose main ambition in the game is to stop us from playing. Over two legs thats negated a little bit, but in a one off game its a lot tougher. AND the goalkeepers we've faced in those finals have been the oppositions best player in each game.

Other than our first how many European Cups have we won ‘easily’?

1-0 Bruges and Real, shoot outs Roma and AC. And Spurs was pretty close until the legend that is Divock was introduced.

Luckily some of the Grinches on here weren’t around when we were beaten in the Final by the Crazy Gang.

Offline royhendo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #65 on: June 1, 2022, 11:11:10 am »
Here's the cup finals from the Bob Paisley years (apparently the most successful side we've ever had).

77: Lost the FA Cup to Man Utd - 2-1; beat Borussia Monchengladbach 3-1 to win the European Cup.
78: Lost the League Cup to Forest - 0-0 in 1st game, 1-0 in replay, beat Bruges 1-0 to win the European Cup.
79: nowt
80: nowt
81: Won the League Cup v West Ham - 1-1 in 1st game, 2-1 in replay; beat Real Madrid 1-0 to win the European Cup.
82: Won the League Cup v Spurs - 3-1
83: Won the League Cup v Man Utd - 2-1

« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 11:13:46 am by royhendo »
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #66 on: June 1, 2022, 11:14:27 am »
It'd be fascinating to know exactly when we should have sold Mane and Salah. Last summer, with Sadio coming off the back of a bit of a poor one (by his standards) and in hindsight....just before maybe his best season for us, and another beast season for Mo? January?

I think what Al sometimes struggles with (and he's not alone in it, there's no shame or embarrassment attached), is that you can't force a player to sign a contract, nor can you force a player to leave, and nor can you force another club to make a bid for a certain player. Gini is a good example, would we have finished 3rd last season without him? Considering how often he played, there's a fair chance we wouldn't and that would have cost the club a lot more than the piddly amount we might have got in the summer of 2020 for him. And he went to PSG for the highest offer. He doesn't get that if he leaves for a fee.

If you weigh up what we could have got for Sadio last summer versus now, what's the difference? £20/30 million? And for that we've had one of, if not his best, seasons for us. Where he's scored some huge goals, contributed massively to winning trophies. The whole 'the club should have sold them if they didn't want to sign a new contract' is absolutely obliterated by what we nearly did this season.

The issue for me is the poor planning. We signed Salah, Mane and Firmino in different seasons but have ended up with all three of them having their contract expire at the same time. Add in potentially losing Naby and Ox as attacking mids on frees and we have three options. Spend hundreds of millions replacing like for like, hope the likes of Carvalho and Elliott perform at an incredible level or watch the squad depth drop.

As for Mane I think he was pretty average in the first half of the season but the signing of Diaz lit a fire under his arse. It was the improvement in the squad depth that for me nearly gave us an incredible season.

Ideally I think we would have tied up a couple of our forwards and could have concentrated our efforts on improving the midfield area especially with Hendo and Thiago being a similar age and Milner being used far too often.

Having to replace 4,5 or 6 players risks reducing the amount per player we can spend, which may also reduce the quality of the player we can bring in.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #67 on: June 1, 2022, 11:16:31 am »
What much of the commentary appears to ignore is there is another team playing and a multitude of factors that go into the game on the day.

Yes, we didn't score in the 3 finals - the other teams only managed 1 and they too are playing to win so it is likely they up their game.

People then talk about us drawing too many games etc - well of course the other teams are going to try and get a result!

Complain all you want about how you want teams to have a go at City and how one team shouldn't bulldoze it all - but you can't then complain about them making an effort against us/that we don't simply wipe teams out every time.

We want football to be competitive - but seemingly not when it hurts us

Offline Jookie

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #68 on: June 1, 2022, 11:16:39 am »
True….but at the same time we were also a couple of a penalties away from being without Trophy.

In some ways that doesn’t matter in terms of the question around team and squad quality.

Whether we won 4 trophies or 0, the fact we got to the last kick of every competition we entered is indicative of the quality of this squad and the staff around it.

We are also potentially in a period of transition. It might feel like that’s just starting due to the potential departure of some key players. In reality, the transition has on-going for the last few years. Elliott, van der Berg, Gordon, Tsimikas, Minamino, Jota, Konate, Diaz, Carvalho have all been signed in last 3 seasons. Not all will still be part on our long term plans but you can see us trying to refresh whilst staying competitive. There’s an argument that 6 or 7 of those players are still viewed as key in the next phase of this team.

That iterative process of refreshing the squad will continue. The jarring thing for some will be the fact that this process will involve the departure of 1 or 2 players who’ve been absolutely key to our success the last 4-5 seasons.
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #69 on: June 1, 2022, 11:30:47 am »
Finals are hard.

Honestly have a look at a list of CL, FA Cup and EFL Cup Finals. European Cup Finals for example, the most common score by a distance is 1-0. Its even harder when you're facing two of the most expensively assembled squads of all time, with good managers, experienced players, whose main ambition in the game is to stop us from playing. Over two legs thats negated a little bit, but in a one off game its a lot tougher. AND the goalkeepers we've faced in those finals have been the oppositions best player in each game.

Yeah. No team has scored more than 1 goal in the last 5 European finals (EL and CL). They've all been 1-0 or 1-1.

Offline royhendo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #70 on: June 1, 2022, 11:38:59 am »
"Poor planning". We've renewed Jurgen Klopp's contract and just about won everything there was to win - literally as close as anyone's ever gotten to doing that. I'll bow out of this thread and maybe log off the site for a while.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #71 on: June 1, 2022, 11:53:21 am »
The issue for me is the poor planning. We signed Salah, Mane and Firmino in different seasons but have ended up with all three of them having their contract expire at the same time. Add in potentially losing Naby and Ox as attacking mids on frees and we have three options. Spend hundreds of millions replacing like for like, hope the likes of Carvalho and Elliott perform at an incredible level or watch the squad depth drop.

As for Mane I think he was pretty average in the first half of the season but the signing of Diaz lit a fire under his arse. It was the improvement in the squad depth that for me nearly gave us an incredible season.

Ideally I think we would have tied up a couple of our forwards and could have concentrated our efforts on improving the midfield area especially with Hendo and Thiago being a similar age and Milner being used far too often.

Having to replace 4,5 or 6 players risks reducing the amount per player we can spend, which may also reduce the quality of the player we can bring in.

Again Al its not a criticism, but it just seems to be one of a number of things about the club (and well, football really), that you struggle to understand (or just ignore so you can get on with your favourite pastime).

Its got naff all to do with poor planning, its just how football contracts work. You cant stagger them so you're never in a position where someone has two years left on their contract and its genuinely laughable that you seem to think we could. The added aspect is that players more and more are running their contracts down to a point where they either leave on a free (and get a mega deal elsewhere) or get what they want. Players age differently, perform differently, and want different things. We've seen it with Mbappe this summer, we've seen it with Messi recently, we're seeing it with numerous players this and next summer. You've got some of the best players in the world in their position with contracts expiring this or next summer, not just our three. It could be that Liverpool, Bayern, Real, Barca (well probably true with them), Inter, Chelsea, Man City, Napoli, Atletico etc all don't know what they're doing with respect to contract extensions. Or it could be that more and more, players realise they'll get more money as a free agent as are more likely to run their contracts down, and there's very little a club can do once they've decided that.

And sorry, but Ox is barely even squad depth anymore. Harveys already in front of him in the pecking order, I'm pretty sure Carvalho can manage. It seems Naby will probably sign a new contract. It seems pretty likely Sadio will be sold this summer, for anything between £40-50 million. Which is right in our sweet spot for attacking signings, so I think we'll be fine there. So we actually then leave ourselves with Mo and Bobby with expiring contracts, and not quite in the panic station you predictably suggest we are. And of course, then predictably suggesting it'll cost us 'hundreds of millions' to replace like for like, knowing full well that we wouldnt replace like for like as thats not how we work. We'll look for the same again with either of them, in that usual spot for us. So more like £100 million to replace both of them, max, and thats on the basis that they both leave on a free next summer.

I asked the question and I'll ask again, at what point do you think we should have sold Salah and Mane when it became clear their extensions were going to be tricky?

The clear point here is that we've just had an incredible season (not nearly), where we've used our squad tremendously well. Its on the club and the management staff to maintain that, the signs with our last few signings are that they know exactly what they're doing and will continue to do so. If they dont, then of course they open themselves up to criticism. But thats in the future. But look Al, a lot of us have enjoyed this season immensely and I dont think anyone wants to stop you from doing what you enjoy immensely so fill your boots mate :)



If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline bornandbRED

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #72 on: June 1, 2022, 11:56:16 am »
Our big game record is something to think about. We didn’t quite look like we had the oomph to go on and win those games from early in the season against City - where they come to Anfield and outplayed us in the first half, and Chelsea - where we struggled to break through against ten men at home. That theme continues through the season, with a couple of notable dropped leads mixed in there.

Without looking too deeply, perhaps our game management and control wasn’t as good as it has been in some of those games. Brentford away is another one that continues to leave a sour taste in the mouth.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #73 on: June 1, 2022, 12:04:54 pm »
Our big game record is something to think about. We didn’t quite look like we had the oomph to go on and win those games from early in the season against City - where they come to Anfield and outplayed us in the first half, and Chelsea - where we struggled to break through against ten men at home. That theme continues through the season, with a couple of notable dropped leads mixed in there.

Without looking too deeply, perhaps our game management and control wasn’t as good as it has been in some of those games. Brentford away is another one that continues to leave a sour taste in the mouth.

Quite some thread this one.

Unfortunately, posters like yourself are just constantly going to do the sportswashers work for them and ignore the monstrous elephant in the room. We finished on 92 points. We dropped 12 points in 'big games' (City, Chelsea, Spurs) whilst dropping no points in other 'big games' (United, Everton, Arsenal) and beating the likes of Atletico, Villareal, Porto, Inter Milan, Chelsea twice in cup finals, City in a semi, Arsenal in a semi. Its genuinely laughable that people are trying to push a theme of 'didn't do it in big games' considering the season we've just had, but again mate you do what you enjoy :D
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Sharado

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #74 on: June 1, 2022, 12:08:04 pm »

Most likely outcome was to score 7 goals given the volume of XG created.

Fuck me that's depressing.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #75 on: June 1, 2022, 12:14:19 pm »
"Poor planning". We've renewed Jurgen Klopp's contract and just about won everything there was to win - literally as close as anyone's ever gotten to doing that. I'll bow out of this thread and maybe log off the site for a while.

Also did it with very few injuries, overcame AFCON dip in form and used the bench amazingly well - giving a lot of players sufficient playing time. Our season has been a case study in good planning and execution.

Offline na fir dearg

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #76 on: June 1, 2022, 12:23:45 pm »
The issue for me is the poor planning. We signed Salah, Mane and Firmino in different seasons but have ended up with all three of them having their contract expire at the same time. Add in potentially losing Naby and Ox as attacking mids on frees and we have three options. Spend hundreds of millions replacing like for like, hope the likes of Carvalho and Elliott perform at an incredible level or watch the squad depth drop.

As for Mane I think he was pretty average in the first half of the season but the signing of Diaz lit a fire under his arse. It was the improvement in the squad depth that for me nearly gave us an incredible season.

Ideally I think we would have tied up a couple of our forwards and could have concentrated our efforts on improving the midfield area especially with Hendo and Thiago being a similar age and Milner being used far too often.

Having to replace 4,5 or 6 players risks reducing the amount per player we can spend, which may also reduce the quality of the player we can bring in.

Poor planning made us lose the CL final 1-0 and finish a point behind a club with no budget? ok

Offline Xink

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #77 on: June 1, 2022, 12:30:18 pm »
Quite some thread this one.

Unfortunately, posters like yourself are just constantly going to do the sportswashers work for them and ignore the monstrous elephant in the room. We finished on 92 points. We dropped 12 points in 'big games' (City, Chelsea, Spurs) whilst dropping no points in other 'big games' (United, Everton, Arsenal) and beating the likes of Atletico, Villareal, Porto, Inter Milan, Chelsea twice in cup finals, City in a semi, Arsenal in a semi. Its genuinely laughable that people are trying to push a theme of 'didn't do it in big games' considering the season we've just had, but again mate you do what you enjoy :D
Depends which way you look at it
I don’t think beating Everton and Man Utd giving their respective piss poor seasons is a good Barometer to measure us by.
Put it another way :-
- we’ve blown a 2 goal head start lead at the Bridge with a Chelsea and failed to do anything against 10 men in the other game at Anfield
- lead twice against City at Anfield and failed to win
- quite often creating 20 plus chances per game with 10 shots on target or more and then scoring 1 or none as is the case in the cup finals and even against Newcastle In April when we were hanging on at the end
I appreciate scorning 90 plus points is amazing but by god it hurts coming so close on both fronts

Offline Sharado

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #78 on: June 1, 2022, 12:33:57 pm »
Depends which way you look at it
I don’t think beating Everton and Man Utd giving their respective piss poor seasons is a good Barometer to measure us by.
Put it another way :-
- we’ve blown a 2 goal head start lead at the Bridge with a Chelsea and failed to do anything against 10 men in the other game at Anfield
- lead twice against City at Anfield and failed to win
- quite often creating 20 plus chances per game with 10 shots on target or more and then scoring 1 or none as is the case in the cup finals and even against Newcastle In April when we were hanging on at the end

Come on.

Against Chelsea we had our reserve goalie out, a midfield 3 picked because of how covid affected the squad and we didn't even have klopp on the bench.
We lead twice against city without thiago or trent, two of our most creative players, and they needed a deflection off matip to equalize.
I guess I'll take your point that we're not always brutal in our finishing, because if what Roy's said is right that we had an xg of 7 across the 3 finals that does feel a bit off to me, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Sign a decent striker to replace mane, add [ideally] a couple of powerful and pacey midfielders and we'll fucking twat the league next year.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #79 on: June 1, 2022, 12:35:27 pm »
Depends which way you look at it
I don’t think beating Everton and Man Utd giving their respective piss poor seasons is a good Barometer to measure us by.
Put it another way :-
- we’ve blown a 2 goal head start lead at the Bridge with a Chelsea and failed to do anything against 10 men in the other game at Anfield
- lead twice against City at Anfield and failed to win
- quite often creating 20 plus chances per game with 10 shots on target or more and then scoring 1 or none as is the case in the cup finals and even against Newcastle In April when we were hanging on at the end
I appreciate scorning 90 plus points is amazing but by god it hurts coming so close on both fronts

Well yeah you can spin it negatively if you want of course Xink. But whats required to even compete should be the talking about (you'll know that shortly being in Gateshead ;))
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.