Author Topic: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off  (Read 19523 times)

royhendo

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Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« on: October 2, 2012, 07:55:10 am »
Reposted from The Anfield Wrap.

-


IN recent years, supporting Liverpool FC has been a bit like visiting your dominatrix and realising she’s forgotten your safe word.*

“BANANA!”, you whimper. Nobody hears.

The ball rebounds off the woodwork for the umpteenth time. A referee denies a stonewall penalty, and books your striker for having the temerity to fall over in the first place. The media brands the collective a disgrace. The fans are defiant! The fans are disgruntled. The fans are in outcry. The men in their suits who are supposed to make things right shuffle some papers around. The owners get a call from their sponsors and shift uneasily in their bespoke tailored ‘pants’. Drops of saliva well in the mouths of the stalking media.

“BANANA!”, you scream! Nobody hears.

Well, until now maybe. The dirty work is maybe starting to pay off.

Now is a good time to go back and listen to Brendan Rodgers Talks To TAW. A full frontal exposure, in which nothing’s hidden. As you listen, you can begin to really unravel what Rodgers was getting at, as he laid out his vision of how he expects his sides to play.**

During the interview he said, “the more we work together, the more we get the ideas, the more we get the types of players that fit this way of working, then you’ll see it then change very quickly.”

We’re seeing the beginnings of that now. Rodgers introduced several of Rodolfo Borrell’s reserve side into the starting eleven, players who are accustomed to his way of working already, or something approaching it, and hey presto, we’ve seen it change very quickly.

We’ve also seen evidence of improved quality in possession. As he said, “what we’ll become better at is doing it a bit quicker. It probably needs to be a bit quicker in the tempo but that will come once the methods are more installed with the players.”

Coupled with that, Borrell’s players, and also his buys in Allen, Sahin and Assaidi, have all demonstrated what he was hoping for when he said, “you have to have more patience …every time you cross the half way line you’re not going to score on your first attempt – so test the organisation. Teams are well organised now so you have to test their organisation move the game move the ball, move the ball, get them tired, keep them running …and then once you keep moving them side to side in order to penetrate someone loses their concentration.”

What we’ve also seen both the front line side and the midweek side start to demonstrate is an ability to control the shape and tempo of the game – the balance of play, the available space, and the rhythm. He made several points along these lines in the interview. About his time with Swansea, he said, “teams were frightened to death of letting us get a rhythm in the game. So they would push right on to our back four. So I then had Michel Vorm just take them out of the game …now it’s four v four. …then they’re unsure …they don’t want to be exposed …So then they start to drop off so then you can build your game.”

There’s little doubt the transition involves a big change for the keepers. On Reina, he said, “Pepe …can use his feet so for us when we’ve got the ball it should be eleven versus ten. With Michel Vorm last year …it was perfect. He was quick, he was agile and he could play football and it meant when my team had the ball my team had eleven men against the ten and when you’ve got the ball 65-70% of the time it’s a football death for the other team. We’re not at that stage yet but that’s what we will get to.”

We’ve seen both Jones and Reina flapping a little – they’ve had a lot to think about. But the players have started building the trust to make these changes, because the penny’s starting to drop that it’s effective. Whether it’s the longer pass from the ‘sweeper keeper’, a centre back dropping the shoulder and carrying it through the midfield (Coates on Wednesday, Agger putting Suarez through on Saturday), or by the keeper or centre halves threading it through the pivot in midfield. Those pivots also need to be capable of turning into play – it’s fundamental. We saw what happened when Henderson misjudged his ball to Wisdom at West Brom, for example, whereas when it’s worked, we’ve seen just how effective it can be in disrupting the opposing team’s shape.

The best example of all this is the build up to the 5th on Saturday. Admittedly, Norwich were poor, but Liverpool played the shape of the game like a concertina. Having already worked Norwich up and down the full length of the pitch, Allen receives the ball with his back to play, spins his man, slips it to Gerrard, and the minute Garrido overextends to try and intercept the ball to Sterling, Norwich are all over the place.

Rodgers wants his teams to test their opponents’ organisation, to move the ball, get them tired, keep them running, and then penetrate the minute someone loses their concentration. That’s exactly what we’ve begun to see. And it all gets better with time.

January is going to be interesting, because as a result of his boldness, our squad, dare we say it, has begun to look almost deep, save for in that striking position. At this stage, some senior players look doomed to finding playing time elsewhere, be it via loans or sales. It’s hard to see what they’re going to add when the kids introduced, at a guess, collectively earn a fraction of each of their individual salaries. Less need to reinforce elsewhere, coupled with funds raised and wages freed through sales? An established scouting team in place? There aren’t going to be many excuses if we don’t do something impressive up top.

On the negative side, people are worried about cheap concessions, lapses in concentration from senior players (Pepe, Skrtel) and the openness of the football, but I’d hope Brendan Rodgers has bought a little credit now on this front. Again, in the interview, describing his focus after improving Swansea’s attacking play, he said, “it was still about getting the balance because at home we were brilliant, away from home it was a little bit too open …it’s important about being secure and getting the balance behind that so you don’t concede.”

The improvement is unlikely to be linear. We’ll see mistakes, defensive lapses, and downright bad luck – it’s inevitable (with our current refereeing establishment at least). So we need to be patient and reasonable. Players’ roles are different, and the model of football demands both heightened concentration and balls on the ball. It shouldn’t come as a great surprise that we’re making a few mistakes as we adjust. Maybe if it continues into the winter we can worry. But this is our starting point. As Rodgers said, “it will be an education that hopefully will put us in place for the next number of years going forward. But this is the ugly bit of work; this is the dirty work as you call it.”

And boy are we beginning to look a little spicy on the park. The difference, though, is we’re less frantic, and a little more tantric.

Here’s to more of that.

-

* Shamelessly borrowed from the excellent Sahil Malik. Also, I realise I’ve used the word ‘your’. I’m not suggesting you, you know.

** Handily enough, Jim Boardman transcribed the interview in full.


Offline OrangeMochaFraps

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #1 on: October 2, 2012, 08:01:37 am »
Great article!  Thanks for posting

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #2 on: October 2, 2012, 08:09:32 am »
Nice to see a little ray of hope entering our thoughts.
It's been a while but I feel upbeat
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Offline Jellies

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #3 on: October 2, 2012, 08:17:54 am »
Rodgers is doing what he claimed he would do, and with the words he's said, it's one of the most exciting and yet still comfortable directions this club can move. Nice one Roy.

Offline Ben_

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #4 on: October 2, 2012, 08:23:37 am »
Good stuff.

Looking forward to games again, been a while since I've been able to say that.
The match kicks off in 30 minutes ya silly twat


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Offline Ycuzz

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #5 on: October 2, 2012, 08:30:04 am »
Nice one Roy. Also, thanks to Jim Boardman for the transcript!
@Yvanicuzz

Offline bravarado7

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #6 on: October 2, 2012, 08:31:56 am »
Brilliantly put Roy!

It really seems like the dirty work is beginning to pay off. There is a clear pattern of play emerging and I personally feel its been a blessing in disguise we played the top teams so early in the competition. Irrespective of the results, what those performances gave us, and more importantly the players, is a belief that this system can work when we give it our full effort and implement the manager's ideologies. The defeat to Man United and the reaction later from the crowd at Anfield at the end of the game, Ferguson himself admitting they were very poor and Liverpool dominated the game, Steven Gerrard stating that he never before felt so optimistic after a United defeat and then the West Brom cup game put any lingering doubts in players' minds  to rest.

The way Rodgers has handled the youth and gave them confidence has also gone a lone way in instilling belief. One of the major gripes with our team last season and the season before last was their inability to turn up for specific games. One week we saw them absolutely blast teams off the park while the very next week we saw them struggle or rather a precise phase would be not turn up for the game. This season though , the system itself demands players to turn up as it involves high-intensity pressing.Those that don't turn-up will be easily identified by BR and hence run the risk of getting subbed off at any point in the game. That is why system itself is the star in BR's philosophy.

Optimism is running high.
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #7 on: October 2, 2012, 08:36:16 am »
Brilliant article Roy, though you've told us a little too much I fear.  "Banana" is not a good safe word at all!

I think the style of play is why I was so positive after the Man U defeat.  We looked so in control that you could almost forgive the defensive lapses, refereeing mistakes and lack of finishing.  It was the first league game in which we looked in so much control.  That we lost was painful but there were a number of mitigating circumstances.

Against Norwich it really was death by football.  Once the third went in (especially as it was straight after a very dangerous Norwich attack), we entered a passage of play in which we simply passed the ball around beautifully.  There were even occasions when Norwich would have the ball, lose it cheaply, and then be screaming to the gods above because they knew it was going to be a nightmare to get it back.

What was different between Norwich and Man U was firstly the tempo.  We looked much more confident in our possession.  This was probably partially down to us player a weaker team and also because the training is building up the tempo with each day.  Of course we lost Shelvey and had some injuries that affected our flow against Man Utd and, of course, our attack was much more potent against Norwich.

I can see that we will continue to have days like the one at home to Man Utd, until we have more confident finishers (which seems strange to say given Suarez' goals this season).  But having seen the Norwich game I'm confident that we'll have more days like that as well.  What matters now is that we press on and don't let this good feeling slip away against Stoke and Reading.

onwards and upwards.

Offline Kansti

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #8 on: October 2, 2012, 08:41:06 am »
Pleasure to read  :) Re-read the transcript again, and couldn't help but read with an imaginary Irish voice. Couldn't help but almost did Brendan's incredulous look when he mentioned about three midfielders suddenly becoming one. :lmao

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #9 on: October 2, 2012, 08:43:39 am »
Great article that!!

Having watched the Norwich game again last night it was nice to be able to relax and watch all the subtle movements of the players, the prodding and probing as the players look for spaces and weaknesses and players dropping deep to play between the lines and sett-up chances. We are now starting to see the benefits of the work that is being put in on the training ground.

Three wins out of our last four matches with five goals scored twice during that period is testament to this hard work. 
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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #10 on: October 2, 2012, 09:58:57 am »
Rodgers is doing what he claimed he would do, and with the words he's said, it's one of the most exciting and yet still comfortable directions this club can move. Nice one Roy.
What's Hodgson got to do with this? Rodgers is everything Roy won't ever be.

( ;D )

Nice!

Offline Jellies

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Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #11 on: October 2, 2012, 10:07:08 am »
What's Hodgson got to do with this? Rodgers is everything Roy won't ever be.

( ;D )

Nice!
We all know Roy created the fundament for Brendan to build on.

Offline reds7

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #12 on: October 2, 2012, 10:19:07 am »
Cheers, tidy article. Love that build up to the fifth. Everyone played their part in it

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #13 on: October 2, 2012, 10:20:39 am »
We are still at the early stages of what Rodgers wants to implement. at first team level, it will take atleast 1-2 years to have it fully implemented. I watched the U21 game yesterday and they are even closer to what it seems Rodgers wants from his team.

I wonder how many more kids will realisticaly get a chance from now until December.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #14 on: October 2, 2012, 10:31:44 am »
Important point about the transition from Borrell's team to the first team. It was a very important thing with the hiring of Rodgers, that he could synch the existing style at the Academy with the new manager's style of play. I'm also pleased that we have allowed a few young players to come through. Because of this, our squad is not as thin as people thought. I've always been for having a slightly smaller squad, because it's easier to spot weaknesses and therefore it's a better basis for improvement. Which, certainly at this point, is crucial for us. Those who are not good enough should be moved on. Soon I believe it will be obvious that the one problem we have with the squad is limited to a handful of experienced players. Players who cost us a lot, but offer very little. We should solve that problem next summer (if not in January). Once done, I believe we can get a significant improvement.

Overall, the part I like the most with Rodgers is that he plays a positive, constructive way of football. We will make mistakes, but we're trying to do things the right way and that's important.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #15 on: October 2, 2012, 11:00:22 am »
The possession is nice, the patience is necessary but penetration is the key - seems a bit churlish after a 5 goal game but the Norwich defence was crap and we still have a -3 goal difference. Flat track bullies....

Before I get battered for being negative I'm trying not to get carried away with poor games such as Arsenal or with good games such as Norwich - its early days - the system, the players, the manager are all bedding in - it'll take a lot longer to work but the key will be penetration.

and penetration is not about creating chances its about finishing them - under Dalglish we created more, we converted less and before the arguments about they were different harder chances, no they were not, thats just a convenient myth - we didn't finish - there were many reasons but only one fact our finishing was crap last season - quality, luck or mentality doesn't really matter - so somehow Rodgers has to find a way to score goals

domination, wearing down the opposition, tiring them out is one way but having created that key chance it has to go in the net - in the past we've had world class finishers - Aldridge, Rush, Fowler, Hunt - but were does the finisher play - Rodgers wants Suarez close to goal - in his system then there is no 'finisher' - we rely on Suarez plus contributions from elsewhere? Suarez is Messi then?  Allen is Xabi?  Is Wisdom the new Sergio Ramos? Are we really Barca lite? Its not that simple is it? Where is the innovation, were is 'Liverpool' ? Should we even care?






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Offline edeyj

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #16 on: October 2, 2012, 11:25:36 am »
The possession is nice, the patience is necessary but penetration is the key - seems a bit churlish after a 5 goal game but the Norwich defence was crap and we still have a -3 goal difference. Flat track bullies....

Before I get battered for being negative I'm trying not to get carried away with poor games such as Arsenal or with good games such as Norwich - its early days - the system, the players, the manager are all bedding in - it'll take a lot longer to work but the key will be penetration.

and penetration is not about creating chances its about finishing them - under Dalglish we created more, we converted less and before the arguments about they were different harder chances, no they were not, thats just a convenient myth - we didn't finish - there were many reasons but only one fact our finishing was crap last season - quality, luck or mentality doesn't really matter - so somehow Rodgers has to find a way to score goals

domination, wearing down the opposition, tiring them out is one way but having created that key chance it has to go in the net - in the past we've had world class finishers - Aldridge, Rush, Fowler, Hunt - but were does the finisher play - Rodgers wants Suarez close to goal - in his system then there is no 'finisher' - we rely on Suarez plus contributions from elsewhere? Suarez is Messi then?  Allen is Xabi?  Is Wisdom the new Sergio Ramos? Are we really Barca lite? Its not that simple is it? Where is the innovation, were is 'Liverpool' ? Should we even care?








Agree with this.

In the previous doom and gloom threads I have been saying time is needed and that still stands after a couple of good results.

The Norwich game showed all the good things about this system of play (apart from shipping 2 goals)....but it was Norwich. Now we need consistency of play and of results. Hopefully that will follow. I still think Borini could be the finisher we need but we will probably have to invest in at least one more forward.

Offline mactifosi

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #17 on: October 2, 2012, 11:36:08 am »
Nice read and very much captures were we are going.

Patience is a virtue and I think we shall be rewarded for it, on and off the pitch.

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #18 on: October 2, 2012, 11:51:34 am »
Agree with this.

In the previous doom and gloom threads I have been saying time is needed and that still stands after a couple of good results.

The Norwich game showed all the good things about this system of play (apart from shipping 2 goals)....but it was Norwich. Now we need consistency of play and of results. Hopefully that will follow. I still think Borini could be the finisher we need but we will probably have to invest in at least one more forward.

To be fair, it's not just Norwich. It's West Brom and Young Boys also.

Offline woof

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #19 on: October 2, 2012, 12:02:22 pm »
Great OP. We can see the light at the end of the tunnel now but like you wrote, Roy, there will be further mistakes or we get punished for lapses of concentration. The upcoming Stoke game will test how 'penetrative' we can be against a parked bus.

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #20 on: October 2, 2012, 12:13:34 pm »
Suarez's movement is key to this, against Norwich he had the defenders pulled totally out of position. Gerrard, Sahin and Sterling were able to exploit this.  Will other teams fall into the same trap?
BTW Borinin and Sinclair were doing the same so there is continuity of style.

Offline gamble

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #21 on: October 2, 2012, 12:19:42 pm »
I am also looking forward to seeing our next game, is exciting not knowing what to expect this season and really enjoy seeing some of the younger players being given a chance. It can only get better as far as I am concerned, this season might be too soon to really achieve anything but feel very optimistic for next year.

The last few performances have been a really good team game, when our players are in possession they usually have 2-3 passing options. This is such a change and one I've been looking out for a long time. You can also certain players forming partnerships on the pitch, I liked seeing Sahin and Suarez together.

Norwich were crap though and made it easy for us, plus things do get lairy whenever the opposition breaks on the counter but it is getting better.

 

Offline sempi

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #22 on: October 2, 2012, 12:35:57 pm »
I am also looking forward to seeing our next game, is exciting not knowing what to expect this season and really enjoy seeing some of the younger players being given a chance. It can only get better as far as I am concerned, this season might be too soon to really achieve anything but feel very optimistic for next year.

The last few performances have been a really good team game, when our players are in possession they usually have 2-3 passing options. This is such a change and one I've been looking out for a long time. You can also certain players forming partnerships on the pitch, I liked seeing Sahin and Suarez together.

Norwich were crap though and made it easy for us, plus things do get lairy whenever the opposition breaks on the counter but it is getting better.

 
Yes they were,but you can only beat what in front of you. Of course the worrying thing is that we seemed to tire in the last ten minutes which we have done all season.
Plus this this week:
Nailed on penalty not given, check.
 Suarez misses easy chances, check.
Reina mistake, check.
Skrtl cock up, check.

Hit post, No check.
Ball given away on the edge of their box leading to break away goal, no check.
No luck, BIG NO CHECK!!

 

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #23 on: October 2, 2012, 12:46:03 pm »
The possession is nice, the patience is necessary but penetration is the key - seems a bit churlish after a 5 goal game but the Norwich defence was crap and we still have a -3 goal difference. Flat track bullies....

Before I get battered for being negative I'm trying not to get carried away with poor games such as Arsenal or with good games such as Norwich - its early days - the system, the players, the manager are all bedding in - it'll take a lot longer to work but the key will be penetration.

and penetration is not about creating chances its about finishing them - under Dalglish we created more, we converted less and before the arguments about they were different harder chances, no they were not, thats just a convenient myth - we didn't finish - there were many reasons but only one fact our finishing was crap last season - quality, luck or mentality doesn't really matter - so somehow Rodgers has to find a way to score goals

domination, wearing down the opposition, tiring them out is one way but having created that key chance it has to go in the net - in the past we've had world class finishers - Aldridge, Rush, Fowler, Hunt - but were does the finisher play - Rodgers wants Suarez close to goal - in his system then there is no 'finisher' - we rely on Suarez plus contributions from elsewhere? Suarez is Messi then?  Allen is Xabi?  Is Wisdom the new Sergio Ramos? Are we really Barca lite? Its not that simple is it? Where is the innovation, were is 'Liverpool' ? Should we even care?

We have problems to finish. No doubt. I think we have seen positive signs in the last couple of games. We've had those forward runs when Suarez drops deeper. Both from the flank men and most recently from Gerrard and Sahin. There's a perfect example vs the Mancs when Borini came inside from the left and there's another example from the Norwich game when Gerrard almost scored from a header. From "assists" by Suarez. Those runs are key. If Suarez drops deep, we can't have wingers who hug the line and CMs who like to be quarterbacks. It seems we're changing this for the better. I think we're getting closer to the Maxi, Kuyt, Meireles, Gerrard, Suarez approach that worked so well. And we're getting away from the approach with Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Adam. Where we hardly got any of these runs at all.

For the future, I'd like us to add that Rush/Fowler/Torres player. Then play Suarez as a 2nd striker in a 4-2-3-1/4-4-2. At least from time to time. We'd have no problem to give him a free role and I reckon our game would be less demanding for the CMs and wide midfielders.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

royhendo

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #24 on: October 2, 2012, 12:54:33 pm »
Before I get battered for being negative...

Nobody's gonna batter you except your dominatrix. Oof. ;)

It's OK to be contrarian. That's pretty much my point near the end - progress won't be linear. But it's interesting to hear how bullish Rodgers is already.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/09/29/liverpool-fc-manager-brendan-rodgers-confident-his-side-will-start-getting-results-and-challenge-for-champions-league-places-100252-31928539/

Quote
“There is no doubt it was a difficult batch of fixtures to start with and our first three home games were always going to be difficult,” he said.

“But we have got 99 points to play for. I believe that 70-plus points will allow you to arrive in the top four so that gives us 68 points that we need to pick up over the remaining games. That still gives us 10-odd games to have problems in.

“A Champions League spot would be a monumental achievement but that’s my mentality and I’m selling that to the players – that’s what we have to work towards.

“For me, you aim to win the league and if you can’t do that you finish as high as you possibly can. Listen, we know there’s everything against us in terms of depth of squad because arguably ours is as shallow as any in the league.

“I saw some teams playing this week in the League Cup making seven or eight changes and you wouldn’t even know they’d changed because of the experience they could put in.

“But we find ourselves in this position and I think you will agree that what’s come out of it is we have unearthed a couple of young talents through giving them an opportunity.

“Of course, sooner rather than later, you want to get your points and get up and running. I want us to get the points our performances deserve. That’s our focus and we want that to start at Norwich.”

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #25 on: October 2, 2012, 12:55:40 pm »
The possession is nice, the patience is necessary but penetration is the key - seems a bit churlish after a 5 goal game but the Norwich defence was crap and we still have a -3 goal difference. Flat track bullies....

and penetration is not about creating chances its about finishing them - under Dalglish we created more, we converted less and before the arguments about they were different harder chances, no they were not, thats just a convenient myth - we didn't finish - there were many reasons but only one fact our finishing was crap last season - quality, luck or mentality doesn't really matter - so somehow Rodgers has to find a way to score goals


Completely disagree. Thats like saying unless you make her pregnant you haven't penetrated her! Penetration is 100% about creating chances. Breaking down their defence and getting at their goal. Thats penetration. Actually scoring those chances is a different thing.

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Offline bleedsred1978

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #26 on: October 2, 2012, 01:02:49 pm »
"less frantic, and a little more tantric"

Fantastic turn of phrase that.
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #27 on: October 2, 2012, 02:01:12 pm »
We've definitely improved in what is a very short space of time, shown by 3 wins and 13 goals in our last 4 games, and although there's always a chance we'll have ups and down throughout the season I think everyone can see how a little patience will go a long way (something I've been concerned about since the end of the Hodgson era).

One concern I will add though is the lack of goals from wide areas, as nearly all of our goals have come from either Suarez or the attacking midfielders behind him (Shelvey, Sahin, Gerrard). Obviously we're playing with a lot of youth in the wide positions and this will take time (Sterling looked desperate for a goal against Norwich), and Johnson is likely still adjusting to his leftback role, but as it stands it is a worry that teams will learn how to shut us down by stopping our small number of attacking threats.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #28 on: October 2, 2012, 02:27:19 pm »
Completely disagree. Thats like saying unless you make her pregnant you haven't penetrated her! Penetration is 100% about creating chances. Breaking down their defence and getting at their goal. Thats penetration. Actually scoring those chances is a different thing.



Whats the point if you dont score? Creating chances is not enough - penetration has to be penetrating the goal not the defence - if you set your target as creating chnaces then thats what you'll do - you'll create chnaces and not score - the objective has to be to score. Hence the need for a goal scorer - but Rodgers is not going to chnage formation for that,  so one option is for Suarez to move further from goal - Rodgers wants Suarez near goal so that is not going to happen - another option is to chnage formation - Rodgers is sold on 433 so theer wont be a change in formation either - that means on the face of it Suarez needs to be the goal scorer.

From what we have seen Suarez is capable of being a goal scorer, he is an oustanding player but he does not appear to be as clinical as your standard 'finisher' - that means you need goals from elsewhere in the team to compensate.



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No it isn't.

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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #29 on: October 2, 2012, 02:32:09 pm »
I agree with those concerns about our finishing, and I don't think it's negative to say so.  However, I do see a real strength in the movement of our players that I haven't seen since I was a kid.  A lot of us were raised on pass-and-move and hoped for it's return last year, but in many cases it was all pass and no movement.

Something really telling for me was the interplay which on Saturday created havoc.  It wasn't just Suarez' movement.  It was everyone's movement.

There was a point in that game were (I think it was) Suarez played a slightly overhit pass to our most forward man.  Running onto the ball in the clear was Jordan Henderson.  The pass was overhit so he didn't reach it, but it's another example of how the movement and interplay, when it works well can be devastating.  Look at Sahin against West Brom.  I can see that as we settle goals can come from all over the pitch.  Perhaps less from the wide areas, but certainly throughout the spine.

We do need a better finisher.  Suarez got a hat-trick from outside the box yet missed at least 2 much easier chances.

Offline horne

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #30 on: October 2, 2012, 02:56:33 pm »
directing the ball towards the goal...is what you need to do to score...obvious statement but its fact(ricochet included)

so what stops yer?...i believe its the thinking that goes on in that split second when theyre in that shoot position
'
whats the thought?....if i dont score ...crowd go ' argh eh !..hes shite him ..blah blah' or the thought is i dont think i can score,i havnt scored for ages ...yer know...someone else does all that malarkey..im not a prolific scorer...its not my job...move the ball on to someone else?
or other thoughts...whatever they are
for a few seasons now...weve seen too much indecision on the edge of the box,hot potato time and again...only to lead to the frustration of someone eventually crossing it in and nothing comes of it .

since kenny/ and then BR have arrived, the play has been more threatening...i think hes giving them the freedom to shoot on sight...dont be afraid to have a go scenario....and that was needed
the simple becoming the effective....united have been doing it for years....everything they do is a stepping stone to have a shot at goal....shots both on and off target, i will bet , will be the highest for the teams in the top four ...year after year...it aint science of the rockets...its common sense....and if you worry about whether the keeper is going to save it,worry about the defender getting a leg in...or any other worry at that split second...it all goes wrong...take away the worry...you get the success ...provided you do enough of it...SHOOT!
'
success is the 'absence' of the fear of failure...simple really  ::)

success = the absence of the fear of failure

Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #31 on: October 2, 2012, 03:04:33 pm »
Whats the point if you dont score? Creating chances is not enough - penetration has to be penetrating the goal not the defence - if you set your target as creating chnaces then thats what you'll do - you'll create chnaces and not score - the objective has to be to score. Hence the need for a goal scorer - but Rodgers is not going to chnage formation for that,  so one option is for Suarez to move further from goal - Rodgers wants Suarez near goal so that is not going to happen - another option is to chnage formation - Rodgers is sold on 433 so theer wont be a change in formation either - that means on the face of it Suarez needs to be the goal scorer.

From what we have seen Suarez is capable of being a goal scorer, he is an oustanding player but he does not appear to be as clinical as your standard 'finisher' - that means you need goals from elsewhere in the team to compensate.


No it isn't.


Ronaldo and Messi were two of the highest goal scorers in Europe some seasons ago while playing in wide areas. There is no law that says your CF has to be your main goal getter especially not in a 433 where you have 3 attackers who can interchange

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #32 on: October 2, 2012, 03:35:13 pm »
Ronaldo and Messi were two of the highest goal scorers in Europe some seasons ago while playing in wide areas. There is no law that says your CF has to be your main goal getter especially not in a 433 where you have 3 attackers who can interchange

yep - goals from elsewhere but the idea of playing a clinical player out wide with a less clinical player inside having the majority of chances seems odd.

also how many 'finishers' are there that play wide? Part of the skill is being in the right place at the right time - you simply wont have the opportunity to do this
as often

one idea..........

However, I do see a real strength in the movement of our players that I haven't seen since I was a kid. 

is possibly to have a far greater mobility and interchange of positions - as Rafa used to say for the formation to simply be starting positions with Suarez drifting outside and the outside players in - but that begs the question then of who and it also potentially moves away from the Barca model.....


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Offline mBake_LFC

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #33 on: October 2, 2012, 04:17:55 pm »
Good read. Cheers to 5 spots on Sats/Suns for years to come.

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #34 on: October 2, 2012, 04:31:01 pm »
For the future, I'd like us to add that Rush/Fowler/Torres player. Then play Suarez as a 2nd striker in a 4-2-3-1/4-4-2. At least from time to time. We'd have no problem to give him a free role and I reckon our game would be less demanding for the CMs and wide midfielders.
Less demanding for the CMs and wide midfielders? Sure, Suarez works hard, but wouldn't there be more for the two remaining CMs to do with Suarez as one the 3 in the middle rather than another midfielder? The burden on say, Lucas (or Allen) with Gerrard (or Sahin) and Suarez ahead would be much greater than in a Lucas, Sahin and Gerrard 3 man midfield, no? Three in the centre also allows our wide players to stay higher up the pitch- atleast from time to time - so I'm not sure it would be less demanding for them either. They need to help out defensively now too of course, but it seems to me that the area they'd have to cover would be even bigger if pushed wide and moved back a bit. Not much of a differance there though.

The OP was a very good read by the way.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #35 on: October 2, 2012, 04:44:42 pm »
Whats the point if you dont score? Creating chances is not enough - penetration has to be penetrating the goal not the defence - if you set your target as creating chnaces then thats what you'll do - you'll create chnaces and not score - the objective has to be to score. Hence the need for a goal scorer - but Rodgers is not going to chnage formation for that,  so one option is for Suarez to move further from goal - Rodgers wants Suarez near goal so that is not going to happen - another option is to chnage formation - Rodgers is sold on 433 so theer wont be a change in formation either - that means on the face of it Suarez needs to be the goal scorer.

From what we have seen Suarez is capable of being a goal scorer, he is an oustanding player but he does not appear to be as clinical as your standard 'finisher' - that means you need goals from elsewhere in the team to compensate.


No it isn't.

Penetration is, by definition in football, the beating of defenders. Any time one or more defenders are eliminated from the play, penetration has occurred. This includes the penetration of the goal. There are three ways to penetrate - dribbling (1v1), passing (including crossing), or shooting. Defenders are any players of the opposing team between the ball and the goal, in a direct position to pressure the ball or protect their goal. To expand this, if the ball is just over halfway, on the right side of the field, the far side left winger is not considered a direct threat to possession, unless they drop and pinch in towards their near post and put themselves in a position to pressure the ball at any point. Therefore, what we need to worry about as a club is the finishing of opportunities. These opportunities come from two sources - passes or 1v1 situations. More specifically, there are two types of penetration passes that constitute a final ball - forward passes to feet or space, and crossing. Under Kenny last year, a large number of our chances/final ball came from crosses. There is nothing wrong with that, but we just failed to capitalize. The alternative method was for Suarez to go 1v1. Under BR, we use more mobility and possession passes, so creating a quantity of chances isn't something the team is concerned with - it is creating a small number of quality chances where the likelihood of scoring is greater than 50%. For this, we are utilizing more principles of play - depth, width, mobility, improvisation and surprise. So we will get lots more options for penetration. Finishing is still a concern, but the difference is that under BR, it will be almost harder to miss than to score (Suarez' sitter v Norwich, Sahin goal v Young Boys). With Sahin, Assaidi, Sterling, Suso and Suarez, we will be capable of using more principles of attack than we did last year - more width, more mobility, more improvisation, more surprise. With Joe Allen, Lucas, and Gerrard 2.0, we will also be able to hurt teams with depth (all three are capable-to-brilliant passers of the ball, depending on form). With Borini and Yesil and Suarez, we get mobility and penetrating runs. We also get that with Shelvey and Gerrard.

The more principles of attack and defense a team can operate, the better the chances of winning more games over time.
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Offline enigma

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #36 on: October 2, 2012, 05:06:55 pm »
We've definitely improved in what is a very short space of time, shown by 3 wins and 13 goals in our last 4 games, and although there's always a chance we'll have ups and down throughout the season I think everyone can see how a little patience will go a long way (something I've been concerned about since the end of the Hodgson era).

One concern I will add though is the lack of goals from wide areas, as nearly all of our goals have come from either Suarez or the attacking midfielders behind him (Shelvey, Sahin, Gerrard). Obviously we're playing with a lot of youth in the wide positions and this will take time (Sterling looked desperate for a goal against Norwich), and Johnson is likely still adjusting to his leftback role, but as it stands it is a worry that teams will learn how to shut us down by stopping our small number of attacking threats.

I'm not sure - to be honest there is space opening up from the midfield - doesn't matter if the wide players aren't scoring - it's a team thing and we are beginning to get goals from that midfield - something we were desperately short of last season, but something we did regularly playing our best under Benitez - the likes of Sterling and what not will get goals, but it's great to see a variety of scorers on the sheet - that's what wins games, not relying on just one player.

Offline AshbourneRed

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #37 on: October 2, 2012, 05:43:56 pm »
What a load of bollox! No one would ever use BANANA as their safe word.

Nah, nice article mate and you can definitely see the improvements the longer the players are getting to spend with Brendan. I love how comfortable the lads are starting to look when they're boxed in on the sideline or a tight situation. There's no signs of panic and more often than not they're picking out a clever pass that immediately gets us on the front foot. There's definitely exciting times ahead.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #38 on: October 2, 2012, 06:01:35 pm »
I'm not sure - to be honest there is space opening up from the midfield - doesn't matter if the wide players aren't scoring - it's a team thing and we are beginning to get goals from that midfield - something we were desperately short of last season, but something we did regularly playing our best under Benitez - the likes of Sterling and what not will get goals, but it's great to see a variety of scorers on the sheet - that's what wins games, not relying on just one player.

Well that was my point, goals from midfield is great but if we don't have goals coming from a combination of areas we could struggle. As you say we had midfielders scoring goals under Rafa, but we also had Benayoun and Kuyt chipping in from the wide areas. I'm hoping Assaidi and Borini can provide that additional threat over this season to make buying another goal threat a little less important.

Offline John C

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Re: Domination - the Dirty Work is Paying Off
« Reply #39 on: October 2, 2012, 06:12:04 pm »
I don't think we can be anything other than optimistic, we know our league position is false, aided and abetted by very poor decisions, but climbing that table requires solid performances containing that exact style of play described and orchestrated by Brendan Rodgers, starting against Stoke City. Anything other than a win will be a set-back, not the end of the season but a major set-back.

We need to take strides now and avoid banana skins.