Author Topic: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs  (Read 9537 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« on: July 24, 2004, 06:16:36 pm »
So the new dawn has broken, and the Benitez era is underway: one game, one win. The result was reasonably meaningless, of course (even in these days of pre-season friendlies being advertised like FA Cup finals), but it was a good start to preparations. No new faces bar Cisse, but it's interesting to see who will turn into new players under new stewardship, and with a different playing style.

First to stake a claim was Anthony Le Tallec, with two goals, playing in the hole - his favoured position, and the role he excelled in towards the end of last season for the reserves, but where he's yet to feature for the first team. His best mate, FSP, was even better - but had already been touted by Rafa as a player to feature next season. Finally, Igor Biscan may have earned the chance to prove that his pace and strong running with the ball - something knocked out of him at centre back by Phil Thompson - can be put to use in central midfield, his favoured position. After his first consistent run in English football last season behind him, he may prove he has adjusted to the pace of the Premiership, even if his education was at times rocky.

The weirdest thing about Rafa's tenure so far is that we appear even weaker in the two areas which needed strengthening: centre half, and right midfield. With Benitez preferring Igor in midfield, he has discounted the one quick centre half on the books (not that I'm arguing: Igor was excellent there at times, but made too many errors). And with El Hadji Diouf rightly excluded from the squad for repeated abuses of the privilege of being a professional footballer at Liverpool Football Club, and which nets him £40k a week (it matters not that his misdemeanours were under a different manager), we are one man short in the problem right sided berth (not that Diouf was doing enough to keep his place in the side, but he was an option).

So what else will be different? One thing that needs to change under Rafael Benitez is a swift ditching of the 'Underdog Football' that I believed Liverpool played too much under Gerard Houllier. Bill Shankly urged the Kop to suck the ball in as Liverpool attacked it; Gerard Houllier, you sensed, would rather implore they blew it out as we defended it.

While it made sense - with the team GH had assembled - to go to Old Trafford with ten men behind the ball (it always got results, providing United didn't score first), it has to be our aspiration to go there capable (even if it doesn't happen) of playing United off the park; only then will it mean we are complete enough as a side to compete with United and Arsenal. Yes, "on our day" (the most annoying phrase in football - on their day teams like Southampton beat us) we could beat the top three; but we couldn't do so by matching them at an open, expansive game. After six years in charge, it was GH's job to get us closer to Arsenal and Man U in terms of footballing ability. In that respect, he failed miserably.

If we conceded first against United - or many other teams - there appeared to be no way back; the tactical approach no longer worked, and the team didn't function well enough as a cohesive attacking unit to go on the offensive.

Whenever we did attack in numbers under GH (mainly when we were chasing games), we were often left horribly exposed at the back. Strikers excluded, there was just too much pace lacking from the side: the defence couldn't defend a high line, as not one single first-team defender (ignoring Biscan, who was never outright first choice) had speed in his armoury (contrast Campbell, Toure and Cole for Arsenal). In midfield, Gerrard aside, we also lacked that driving pace - so players couldn't get ahead of the strikers into the box, and then make it back to deal with their defensive duties. When Arsenal attack in numbers, Viera can take a chance to get forward and then, if it breaks down, get back to defend; the same can be said of Freddie Ljungberg, Robert Pires (who may not be great defensively, but still gets back) and Ashley Cole.

Our football in recent seasons most often flourished when we weren't favourites to win a game. When we were expected to win, a combination of pressure and tactical failings hindered our chances. I won't say it's easy to organise a team to defend in numbers and still have the ability to hit on the break; it's not - it requires patience on the training ground and discipline from the players. But it's easier than forming a team that can play that way and also control a game with it's passing and movement - with possession.

Ending what was a footballing season of over-achievers (see Porto and Millwall) was the success of the most remarkable of all underdogs: Greece. A group of well-organised decent pros (helped by most having played little football last season) managed to defend brilliantly and snatch victories over Portugal twice, the Czech Republic, and also dump out Spain. They didn't concede goals, and they won three consecutive games by a header from a right-wing cross. They were inspiring in their pluck, but they weren't inspiring in their football (which isn't illegal or unsporting - that's not my point). But they were helpd by being so unfancied, and not expected to make the running in games. They were allowed to sit back and defend in the way the Dutch or French would never be allowed (better teams are demanded to attack). Defending is an art; and no attacking team can flourish if they keep conceding cheap goals. But you can have a good defence without being negative, or without the entire team behind the ball. Again, Arsenal spring to mind. As do the Liverpool sides of the late 70s/early 80s.

It says it all to me that in the only game in which Greece were not radical underdogs - against Russia - they were very poor and promptly lost. It also raises the point that underdogs raise their game against better teams; we've all seen useless lower division teams dump out Premiership sides; it doesn't therefore mean the lower division team is the better side, or even particularly good. Greece will now find it twice as hard to qualify for the World Cup - teams will now go to Greece to defend and hope for what will now seem a good point if they can draw; suddenly the Greek tactics will fail. Underdogs win cups (see the correlation?), but never has an underdog won a league: it's too long a season, with too many games, for an underserving or fortunate victor. You can win a cup by drawing every game and winning on penalties; draw every league game, and you don't even reach the safety net of 40 points to avoid relegation. In a cup you may not even face the best teams (Millwall made the final without playing a top flight club); in the league, you play everyone twice: making all things more equal.

Gerard Houllier was always looking to take the pressure off his players by playing down our chances and talking up the opposition; making us the underdogs. Initially, that made sense - in his early days, we were underdogs: we'd fallen a long way from the heights of the halcion days. But once we got our name back - at home, and in Europe - after his excellent rebuilding, we suddenly seemed tame once more; our up-curve peaked in the quarter finals of the Champions League in early 2002, and the following season - in an easier qualifying group than those faced the previous year - we lost out to Benitez's awesome Valencia (fair enough) but also Basle: who were underdogs compared to the fancied Reds. The underdogs other main weapon - the element of surprise - was lost once teams cottoned on to Liverpool's style of play, and lack of variety.

Once we put ourselves up on that pedestal in that period from 2001 to 2002, we could no longer claim the advantages of the underdog. Teams suddenly began setting out to stop us play, as they did in the old days - GH became a victim of his own success, not just in terms of raising expectations on the Kop, but in changing the way teams played against us. When GH took over, Liverpool's defence of Babb and an overweight Ruddock were seen as 'easy pickings'. Games were open; teams came at us, knowing they could get something. Once professionalism and organisation were re-established under Houllier, we were firmly back among the Big Boys, a name to be reckoned with once more. Only, we couldn't maintain it; we weren't as close to greatness as imagined. The foundations in terms of preparation, diet, attitude, commitment, etc, were lain in thick concrete, but the footballing base - the style of play - was never as sturdy.

The difference in trying to overcome the very problems faced by our vintage teams was that we lacked the extra levels of quality and guile - and direction - to overcome teams packing their defence at Anfield; we didn't have a Plan B: one of expansive football that dragged teams this way and that, running them ragged and tired, until we could make that rapier thrust. There was plenty of talent; but not quite enough. And there didn't appear to be any bold directives coming from the Bunker.

My theory is backed up by evidence of our home record, where the 'onus' is always 'on us': the last two season have been two of the worst at Anfield in the past fifty years (even allowing for the greatness of many of those years, there were still plenty of poor ones). The underdog doesn't have to take the initiative; he merely needs to sit back and hope for the breaks.

Arsenal, Man U and Newcastle all play a very open, attacking game at home. Newcastle's home record last season was fantastic - they were bold and aggressive in their desire for three points; Liverpool under Houllier, meanwhile, appeared to be more concerned with avoiding defeat at Anfield. Of course, Newcastle away from St James' last year were a shambles - lacking the quality and the nous to keep things tight which becomes more important without the backing of your home fans. My main gripe under Houllier was that we never controlled games in which we took the lead; we dropped back and conceded possession with too many long hopeful punts. If you don't feel able to score more goals, and want to keep things tight at the back, by all means do so: but the best way is to keep possession. No one can score against you if they don't have the ball. Also, don't retreat so deep that you can't clear your own lines with constructive play.

There is no way we'll be favourites to win the league this coming season - and rightly so, at this stage of Rafa's tenure and with the money spent by our rivals to add to already expensively-assembled squads. But that doesn't mean we have to approach it as underdogs, as rank outsiders claiming to just be there for the ride. There is a lot of talent at Anfield, for which we must thank Gerard Houllier, even if he didn't now how best to utilise it. If Rafa can fill the few weak spots GH left in the first eleven, then we can yet be a force to be reckoned with. While I don't want to see our manager willfully bill us as underdogs, at least we won't have the pressure which Chelsea have bought themselves: if you spend £200m in just 13 months, you are failing abjectly if you fail to deliver. They have won nothing of great note for 50 years, and yet some bookies expect them to do better than a team undefeated when winning the title last year. That brings its own problems.

We have to be bold, and positive, and brave; not foolhardy (mention brave attacking football, and people throw Kevin Keegan's 'defenceless' Newcastle at you, whereas I like to think of Liverpool for twenty years, or Arsenal recently, or Man U in the late 90s). Of course, Valencia under Benitez is another fine example. That was a different team to ours: different players, different abilities, different league. But now we have their manager, we can start building towards the heights to which that side ascended.

© Paul Tomkins 2004
« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 07:31:45 pm by Rushian »

Offline Hinesy

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2004, 08:49:03 pm »
all well and good Paul, and another great read mate.
BUT!
We still have to face up to the question of central defence and the player in front of them.
I have written elsewhere of my concern at the effect that Didi playing had on us, as good as he is.
We kinda needed him to protect the slow SH's, so a pacy CBis what most of us want. Houllier tried to address that by playing Igor there, very occasionally working.
I've written elsewhere, half in joke, that is Igor the new Didi ?
For without a new injection of youth/pace/vigour in the CBs, once again we'll be looking to "make do" with possibly Carra partnering one of the SH (the Henchoz variety being the better defender, the Hypia one being better at heading etc).
I don't believe Traore is ready, as potentialy good as he might be, nor do we have anyone else ready for the premiership.
But without the CB sorted, we have to have a protector for them. Which sets off a whole set of dominos in the midfield, restraining Stevie ? Having Didi/Igor there ? Didi = slow holding, Igor =  breath held ohmygodtakeiteasyIgorforgodsake kind of match.


So I enjoyed your post and agree that we aren't underdogs in the premiership, but without the Central Defence sorted, we are underdogs in the top four.
Yep.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2004, 09:05:52 pm »
Cheers, Hisesy.

Of course, as I said: areas of the team still need addressing.

If Rafa can get Igor to play to his full potential in midfield, it could be quite a dynamic partnership with Gerrard. If Didi plays, you know he'll do that great steady job - so who knows how Rafa will call it? Stuff like that will become apparent over the next few weeks. With Didi lacking pace, he can't get back to cover behind the centre backs - both of whom are slow as well - so it does leave us with a weakness there.

As for underdogs, it's more in the approach; like you I think we're rightly fourth favourites, but believe the top four will be very keenly contested this season. If the other three takes points off of each other, who knows? - it could leave the door open.

Offline Hinesy

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2004, 09:11:50 pm »
Well I wonder about the hunger in Arsenal, with or without Veira. I think the mancs will be always there or thereabouts come the end of the season, and Chelsea will start very well - the dynamics of Jose will make them play hard, but there will come a time when chinks in his armour appear and the celebrity players may start chucking their toys out.

Middlesboro have put a very very good team togetherand I can see them being top 8, but Newcastle will either do very well or implode, I suspect the latter.

So really there's no excuse for us not being 4th, but as you say, as ever we should be heading higher and hopefully so.
Yep.

Offline Armin

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2004, 10:32:22 pm »

I don't believe Traore is ready, as potentialy good as he might be, nor do we have anyone else ready for the premiership.

Agree we need new blood here but still can't reconcile the big central defensive conundrum.  I still think Traore would be ok but not alongside Hyppia.  They both want to play on the left hand side and don't complement each other sufficiently.  Either we play Commanding Hyppia alongside a pacy ball player or we play a commanding ball player alongside pacy Traore.  Or we play Igor.

Of course in a parallel dimension Hyppia and Traore have merged and the only problem affecting Benitez is what name to write on the paycheck...

Well, I don't know what it is, but there's definitely something going on upstairs

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2004, 11:32:53 pm »
What a briliant article (like most of yours) I agree with most of your points (espescially Greece vs Russia).  I have to say that was one of the most entertaining reads for along time (beats the "buy Ayala NOW" threads).

Offline Armin

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2004, 12:25:45 am »
What a briliant article (like most of yours) I agree with most of your points (espescially Greece vs Russia).  I have to say that was one of the most entertaining reads for along time (beats the "buy Ayala NOW" threads).

Look we all know its you Mrs tompkins, drop this Colin nonsense ;)
Well, I don't know what it is, but there's definitely something going on upstairs

Offline Hinesy

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2004, 12:48:16 am »


Look we all know its you Mrs tompkins, drop this Colin nonsense ;)


 ;D





Agree we need new blood here but still can't reconcile the big central defensive conundrum.  I still think Traore would be ok but not alongside Hyppia.  They both want to play on the left hand side and don't complement each other sufficiently.  Either we play Commanding Hyppia alongside a pacy ball player or we play a commanding ball player alongside pacy Traore.  Or we play Igor.

Of course in a parallel dimension Hyppia and Traore have merged and the only problem affecting Benitez is what name to write on the paycheck...





Djimi Henchoz
Sami Biscan and
Stephane Traore


beautiful.
Yep.

Offline MC-Red

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2004, 05:34:29 am »
really good and interesting article 8)

I was curious what your view of the new offside rule is.  Clearly Bolton and the Mancs were early in figuring this out but couldn't we see the majority of managers coming in this season with some kind of plan to take advantage of the rule.

If that is the case might not defending up the pitch be harder to do?  I don't really know just have a feeling there will be a dramatic shift in tactics this season. (In US sports where they constantly tinker with the rules the best coaches often come up with clever ways to exploit the inadvertant opportunities created)

Anyway maybe an intelligent ball playing CB is more important than a very fast one for the coming season.

I have never seen Josemi play but is he supposed to be a ball playing centre back?

I'm sure Rafa being the chess player has at least thought about the impact of the offiside rule now in its second season.  Of course he may have dismissed it as irrelevant. 

Curious what you think about this.





« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 04:18:25 pm by MC-Red »

Offline Farman

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2004, 05:39:37 am »
Another good article.

If I may say, you've done quite a few of these recently and they've always been really good to read and provided me with plenty to mull over. I know it must be time consuming, but these pieces are really appreciated by me and I'm sure many others, even if it isn't pointed out by everyone in every thread.

Cheers!
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Offline imran

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2004, 06:42:21 am »
Excellent read!!! ;D
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2004, 09:53:14 am »


Look we all know its you Mrs tompkins, drop this Colin nonsense ;)

 :D

Hopefully you can compare IP addresses to see I'm not that desperate for praise?! (Having said that, thanks to those who posted positive comments - I don't write short articles, so they can make demands on people).

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2004, 09:57:20 am »
Another good read thanks Paul!

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2004, 01:03:34 pm »
Another good read thanks Paul!

Cheers, Pheeny! Nice coming from a legend around these parts!  ;)

Offline Ray Davies

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2004, 01:55:05 pm »
Hello Paul,

I often come to Rawk but i do not often post Because I have a lot to learn first and then because it’s hard to say things when it’s not your mother tongue.

I just wanted to say  that I really enjoy your articles, because your point is interesting of course, but also and above all because it really helps me to understand in a better way many things that I don’t see connections on my own, and then because your articles are very well-written, I mean it’s a pleasure to read them.

I posted a thread the other day about LFC and books. I wrote I thought it was a pity there were so few books available about our beloved team at the official shop for instance … I’ve found out I could buy many on Amazon, but what I know for sure is that you should definitely write your own book, that would be the kind of book you buy immediately and you read it at once …
So, thanks for you help to give me a better insight of my beloved Reds.
YNWA

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2004, 03:22:17 pm »
I’ve found out I could buy many on Amazon, but what I know for sure is that you should definitely write your own book, that would be the kind of book you buy immediately and you read it at once …



Wow, cheers! Maybe I'll get writing...  ;)

One book I'd recommend is The Red Revolution: Liverpool Under Houllier (by Conrad Mewton). Although it's not topical anymore, it's still a good read on how things changed under GH until 2002. The fact that the author is someone I knew from my time online (he used this site for a while), and the book is dedicated to me as an inspiration, is neither here nor there!

 :D
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 07:05:18 pm by paul_tomkins »

Offline Byrnee

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2004, 06:44:53 pm »
I read that book, quality read - happier times....

I've said before Paul I know its a difficult field to get into but surely sending these pieces off to the Echo or the Post, or even National papers, maybe you'll get some work, freelance, whatever, becuae its better than 95% of the articles I trawl through in the media!

Althought this would mean having to pay to read your opinion pieces!

Another fine read anyway. (If you didn't get that). I agree its deffo a very interesting start to the season. Gerrard's comments about seeing at least 3 players have probably been somewhat nullified now GH has been replaced. I hope he, and the rest of us, allow Rafa the time to make the tough decisions. I'll never say we WON'T win the league, even this year, but in a season where no-one is EXPECTING to win it, its a good time to give players a chance. I honestly think this year we could safetly experiment wihtout losing too much ground on the top three. Christ last year, as bad as we played we still should have wrapped up 4th five games before the end of the season.

Also, imagine the outcry if, say, Biscan left, joined Juve and was a revelation!

Good that he's giving them all a chance, he'll know if they've got what it takes pretty soon into the season... I'd even imagine Christmas may be our busiest time in the transfer market.

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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2004, 07:04:22 pm »

I've said before Paul I know its a difficult field to get into but surely sending these pieces off to the Echo or the Post, or even National papers, maybe you'll get some work, freelance, whatever, becuae its better than 95% of the articles I trawl through in the media!


Well, my continuing ill-health means I can't really commit to anything like that, but it's nice to think some people believe I've something of worth to say. I've offered my services to the Official site a couple of times, but they're not interested.


Althought this would mean having to pay to read your opinion pieces!

So that's good then! And I get to say what I want to say, and I don't have to cut it down to a couple of paragraphs; I know it takes skill to write short pieces, but I still prefer to get much more in-depth. I don't think I write overly long or waffly sentences, I just have a lot to say (not all correct, but maybe sometimes I hit a few nails on their heads).

I'm currently loving the reports on the training methods - sounds like Rafa is both totally in charge (in commanding fashion) and getting us passing and moving.  :)

Offline Guinness-Head

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2004, 07:29:33 pm »
A fantastic read Paul and please keep them coming.
Your point about a plan B is spot on because all teams need a plan B and we at Liverpool never seemed to have one under GH.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2004, 08:10:06 pm »
Yeah, Plan B and Plan C, ideally!

(D, E, F...)

 :)

Offline Reds-Faithful

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2004, 02:01:30 am »
Typical Paul Tomkins writing: deep analysis of the Liverpool squad. What's more to it is that Paul Tomkins' views are highly esoteric: only to be grasped by those who closely follow the ups and downs of the Reds.

Great job mate. Keep them coming.  ;)
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Offline Ian-TN

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2004, 02:06:11 am »
We have to be bold, and positive, and brave;

Watching the first half tonight and that sums it up nicely so far.

Another great piece mate.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2004, 02:33:24 am »
Cheers, guys.

I don't try to be esoteric, just say things as I see them, and get to what I think is the heart of the matter - and leave it up to people to decide if they agree or not. If not, so be it!

Offline Ray Davies

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2004, 04:11:53 pm »



Wow, cheers! Maybe I'll get writing...  ;)

One book I'd recommend is The Red Revolution: Liverpool Under Houllier (by Conrad Mewton). Although it's not topical anymore, it's still a good read on how things changed under GH until 2002. The fact that the author is someone I knew from my time online (he used this site for a while), and the book is dedicated to me as an inspiration, is neither here nor there!

 :D


Thanks for the reference !

By the way, is there a Paul Tomkins' fan club somewhere ? I'd like to join  8)

YNWA

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2004, 04:22:10 pm »

By the way, is there a Paul Tomkins' fan club somewhere ? I'd like to join  8)



Well, there's my mum - she's about the extent of my fanclub!  ;)

Offline Ray Davies

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2004, 04:50:05 pm »
Paul,

I 've seen on RAWK that you have written an article about Paisley, but it was more about a moment than about the man.

Do you intent to write something soon, because I think for many reasons he's under-estimated, he didn't have Shanks ' charisma I reckon, and this is a real pity ?

You reputation starts in France as well, I've re-posted some of your articles (mentionning you of course) on sites where I happen to discuss LFC'issues with the few French Reds.

YNWA

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2004, 04:53:31 pm »
I always enjoy the read, and the more that you can post the better at the moment because it sure is a lot more fun than writing this pile of shite thesis of mine.

 I hope that we do try and develop a team that is comfortable on the ball, and even when we are looking down a team where every player wants the ball all the time, and where there is no one hiding by just punting it long everytime they get it (18 yard box defending excluded - JUST GET THE FUCK RID), and fully expect Rafa to have us playing this way given time. 

The other benefit that I really hope Rafa does have is time.  As long as we realise that we have no right to instant success, and that we give him time to develop our style I think that we might be alright.  I think we all recognised that at times Ged tried to make us play flowing football, but a balance was never quite achieved and we gave away a few early season points, the crowd salivated for blood , and it seems that he bottled it.


Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2004, 05:28:22 pm »
Agreed, Aiden - about the style, and about giving Rafa time (the sensible fans will).

However, I think the "clear the edge of the area" mentality - while sensible - was perhaps overdone at times; players simply weren't looking to see if someone was in space to play out from the back without any great risk. The more we can keep the ball, the better. The key, as I said, is avoiding silly risks. But if everyone is comfortable on the ball, then the clearing of lines with a Row Z ball, or a long punt, should only be a last resort.

Offline Aidan_B

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2004, 07:54:52 pm »
However, I think the "clear the edge of the area" mentality - while sensible - was perhaps overdone at times; players simply weren't looking to see if someone was in space to play out from the back without any great risk. The more we can keep the ball, the better. The key, as I said, is avoiding silly risks. But if everyone is comfortable on the ball, then the clearing of lines with a Row Z ball, or a long punt, should only be a last resort.

I think I know what you are saying, and of agree, if there are easy passes to the flanks.  But I would far rather we just cleared our lines and then tried to win the ball back further up the field (i.e. don't just sit deep and wait for it to come back) than trying to pass the ball out of a crowded penalty area, or through a congested central region of the pitch.  It just doesn't strike me as being worth the risk.  But then I have never played at a level where players have the ball control that the pros do.  Lucky bastards that they are 

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2004, 08:42:13 pm »
I was thinking of someone like Toure for Arsenal last year, who would bring the ball out, or pass it out to the wing; but he and Campbell got rid when they need to.

I guess I was just saying that we need to stop "panic" clearing, but don't start needlessly or dangerously "fannying around" with it!! Our players never stopped to think "can I find a teammate?". The more you give it away, the more it comes straight back.

But in Rafa we trust!

Offline m-g

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #30 on: August 3, 2004, 04:30:50 pm »
Good read and interesting points very well made.

On the subject of centre backs and right midfield -

I've always felt that Traore was undeserving of the stick that he gets. I'd like to see him given a long run at CB, probably alongside Sami, but possibly even Carra. I think that Carra, given a sustained run and a stable partnership could do very well there. The problem with that idea is not the talent but the danger of how long it might take for the two to strike up a partnership and the damage that could be done in that time.

Assuming we could do this, I'd look at Josemi at RB with Finnan on the right of midfield  for a while. If he doesn't cut it, then give Semmy a go there - from what I saw of him running with the ball, attacking players and putting crosses in, he's a better right midfielder than defender!

That leaves you with Stevie and Igor or Danny in the middle with Harry out left.

Looks good to me....... 8)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #31 on: August 3, 2004, 05:11:33 pm »
Not so sure about Djimi - he has had some cracking games at centre back, but is far more of liability than Igor, who gets as much stick.

Finnan could yet be the answer at right midfield - as a stopgap measure, at least. If he plays as well as he did at Fulham, he can do a job there while Rafa ponders a move for someone of real quality.

Offline Aidan_B

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #32 on: August 3, 2004, 07:17:45 pm »
I'd still rather play Murphy at right mid with Stevie in the centre alongside either Didi or Igor, and Kewell on the left.  From what I have seen Finnan isn't cut out to play there consistently.  Maybe covering for injuries, but no more.  As for the right back slot, it would be ridiculous of me to offer an opinion on Josemi when I haven't seen him play a whole game.  To some extent Semi impressed me more than Finnan at right back last season, even after removing lead from his arse. 

I have no problem with Traore as cover.  The fact that he looks like Bambi on ice when he runs should not cloud my judgement.  I can't place him above Hyypia and Carra in the centre though.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #33 on: August 3, 2004, 07:42:26 pm »
I think Danny's form in America makes him favourite for that right spot, and fair enough; I still think he could prove his doubters wrong. If the team plays a higher line, then there will less need for Danny to drop very deep, and he can do his best work in the final third of the pitch.

Finnan remains an option there (he is a good crosser, we've just not seen it yet), but of the current squad, Danny should get the nod; but he's also got to play at his best levels to make the spot his own.

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #34 on: August 3, 2004, 08:18:06 pm »
I think Danny's form in America makes him favourite for that right spot, and fair enough; I still think he could prove his doubters wrong. If the team plays a higher line, then there will less need for Danny to drop very deep, and he can do his best work in the final third of the pitch.

Finnan remains an option there (he is a good crosser, we've just not seen it yet), but of the current squad, Danny should get the nod; but he's also got to play at his best levels to make the spot his own.

Almost inevitably agree with your analysis.  I didn't know Finnan could cross, as you say, I'd never seen it.  Although I am yet to be convinced he could work half a yard to get the cross in, we aren't exactly flushed with right midfielders are we.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: LFC: Not the Favourites, But Never Underdogs
« Reply #35 on: August 3, 2004, 10:11:35 pm »
Well, I can say that Finnan put in 46 successful crosses in his final season at Fulham; Jamie Carragher put in 9. Not many players put in more than 40 successful crosses a season from open play.

A friend of mine is a season ticket holder and Fulham, and kept telling me about how great Finnan was at crossing with either foot. Like you say, we've not really seen it for Liverpool, and it remains to be seen if he can handle the pressure at a big club. But he has the basic talent.