Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[TepidT2O]

Geoffrey Howe levels of spite springs to mind.

More I think...

I’ve never seen her so passionate...

She has a clear and obvious hatred for the man...  who knew?

[ShakaHislop]

If she compromised on Brexit (whether that be going for a proper soft Brexit, or agreeing to a 2nd referendum in exchange for the Commons passing her deal), he wouldn't be PM right now.

[TSC]

More I think...

I’ve never seen her so passionate...

She has a clear and obvious hatred for the man...  who knew?

Must be tearing her up knowing that she and her government enabled the lunatics to take control.

[Dr. Beaker]

Must be tearing her up knowing that she and her government enabled the lunatics to take control.

Mind you she should be grateful that someone even shitter than herself came along  to represent the absolute  nadir of British politics. Mind you Cameron has got to be in there somewhere.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Can’t see how Labour can win back voters who have their Brexit messiah in charge. A government that is more right wing than anything we’ve seen in decades, which seems to resonate with large swathes of the country. All whilst having pretty free economic policy - which takes away that angle to a large extent.

If Starmer pursues the path of diet Tory, what alternative is he offering that this country will jump for, that Johnson is already not providing? Let’s not begin talking about Scotland.

Oh, that cannot happen now. But, when 2021 comes round, and the Brexit properly hits the fan, that's a different matter.

[TepidT2O]

Reports that Seamus Milne has finally left the Labour Party employment

[The Real Rasta]

The strategy seems to that alienating BAME/young voters is an acceptable risk to take, on the assumption that they’ll vote Labour no matter what. Because I think people need to realise just how much he’s alienating people right now, although I’m aware Corbyn also put people off for different reasons. Whether he’s going to win back enough Labour voters to offset the people who may just not bother voting at all, I’m not sure.

It seems clear that Starmer is trying to court favour with Times/Telegraph readers. My fear is that he’ll alienate Labour voters and the people he’s trying to court favour with will continue to vote Tory, as they always do.

I’d say so.

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

[Circa1892]

Reports that Seamus Milne has finally left the Labour Party employment

I thought he’d left after the Election. Wonder what value members have got for the Ł55k or so he’s earned in the interim.

[TepidT2O]

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

What was the Britain’s first thing? I hadn’t heard that..

[Mutton Geoff]

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/labour-shadow-cabinet

The parliament elected in 2019 is the most diverse in history and the new shadow cabinet is also more ethnically diverse than its predecessor. There are seven Black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) MPs in the shadow cabinet, or 22% of the total, up from 12% in the outgoing cabinet. This compares with 15% BAME representation in the cabinet.

Over 50% of the Labour shadow cabinet is female, compared with 45% of the last Labour shadow cabinet and just 27% of the current cabinet. Dodds is also the first woman ever to serve as either chancellor or shadow chancellor.

no offence to you but it would be great if there was no need for any stats on gender or ethnicity needing to be part of the debate,  then society will be truly integrated and open for all to achieve on ability alone:

[Snail]

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

Good post mate, and I couldn’t agree more with your second paragraph.

And in general, as I mentioned on here a little while back, there’s been a steady flow of people I know leaving the party over the last few weeks and people who were campaigning for Labour a few months ago (and in elections previous to that) now feel completely pushed out and disenfranchised for a myriad of reasons.

Appreciate that my circle - and Liverpool in general as a place to live - doesn’t represent this country as a whole but there’s a lot of disillusionment about at the moment, and that’s never a good thing.

[oldfordie]

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

I must of missed that. what happened?

[Dr. Beaker]

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

Tory leaders, literally for decades, have managed the impossible task of riding two horses, and now have finally strapped themselves to the one horse and somehow remained in power - I personally think that they have shed all their big hitters and the soul of their party, and that they will soon be fucked up completely by Brexit (their one and only guiding principle and centre of gravity). For decades I have felt that their days were numbered and I still do - I have remained consistently delusional on this since the days of John Major.

But they are survivors, and have never had the baggage of ideology to weigh them down, until now - there I go again.

Labour are consistently self-destructive, carry all kinds of baggage and we have discovered since the Brexit referendum that our Leader now needs to ride three horses, Corbynites, Blairites, and Faragistes. Starmer needs to negotiate not so much a tightrope, as a minefield. There will be mistakes along the way. For me there haven't been any so far, but for others there will have been. The BLM path is nuanced but not that difficult to understand. We have to, as Milliband said, 'Learn, not so much to bury our differences, but to stop burying our similarities.' That's a good one-liner, but it's easier said than done. And how do you find any common ground with our beloved working class Faragistes?! I think the only way is education, and that will start on January the first.

It seems pretty impossible to me, but we all need to be less emotional and try to rationalise our way through this - which seems to me to be roughly what old refreshingly boring Mr. Starmer is trying to do.

[Sangria]

Tory leaders, literally for decades, have managed the impossible task of riding two horses, and now have finally strapped themselves to the one horse and somehow remained in power - I personally think that they have shed all their big hitters and the soul of their party, and that they will soon be fucked up completely by Brexit (their one and only guiding principle and centre of gravity). For decades I have felt that their days were numbered and I still do - I have remained consistently delusional on this since the days of John Major.

But they are survivors, and have never had the baggage of ideology to weigh them down, until now - there I go again.

Labour are consistently self-destructive, carry all kinds of baggage and we have discovered since the Brexit referendum that our Leader now needs to ride three horses, Corbynites, Blairites, and Faragistes. Starmer needs to negotiate not so much a tightrope, as a minefield. There will be mistakes along the way. For me there haven't been any so far, but for others there will have been. The BLM path is nuanced but not that difficult to understand. We have to, as Milliband said, 'Learn, not so much to bury our differences, but to stop burying our similarities.' That's a good one-liner, but it's easier said than done. And how do you find any common ground with our beloved working class Faragistes?! I think the only way is education, and that will start on January the first.

It seems pretty impossible to me, but we all need to be less emotional and try to rationalise our way through this - which seems to me to be roughly what old refreshingly boring Mr. Starmer is trying to do.

The problem for Labour is that the socio-cultural left has assumed the identity of the left and made itself the primary marker of the left, making the party unsympathetic to those who subscribe to the economic left but who are decidedly not socio-cultural left. In the past Labour had made the economic left its label. As Johnson's repeated announcements show, the economic left is still popular enough to vie for. The socio-cultural left is electorally an irrelevance.

[Dr. Beaker]

The problem for Labour is that the socio-cultural left has assumed the identity of the left and made itself the primary marker of the left, making the party unsympathetic to those who subscribe to the economic left but who are decidedly not socio-cultural left. In the past Labour had made the economic left its label. As Johnson's repeated announcements show, the economic left is still popular enough to vie for. The socio-cultural left is electorally an irrelevance.

The old definitions seem irrelevant nowadays. It's not even like they are blurred around the edges, it's more like all the cards have been thrown up in the air. We live in very fluid and even volatile times, and when you are living right in the middle of one of these moments, I have to say that I can't read the future, not a word of it. I just don't know how the cards are going to fall.

[oldfordie]

Tory leaders, literally for decades, have managed the impossible task of riding two horses, and now have finally strapped themselves to the one horse and somehow remained in power - I personally think that they have shed all their big hitters and the soul of their party, and that they will soon be fucked up completely by Brexit (their one and only guiding principle and centre of gravity). For decades I have felt that their days were numbered and I still do - I have remained consistently delusional on this since the days of John Major.

But they are survivors, and have never had the baggage of ideology to weigh them down, until now - there I go again.

Labour are consistently self-destructive, carry all kinds of baggage and we have discovered since the Brexit referendum that our Leader now needs to ride three horses, Corbynites, Blairites, and Faragistes. Starmer needs to negotiate not so much a tightrope, as a minefield. There will be mistakes along the way. For me there haven't been any so far, but for others there will have been. The BLM path is nuanced but not that difficult to understand. We have to, as Milliband said, 'Learn, not so much to bury our differences, but to stop burying our similarities.' That's a good one-liner, but it's easier said than done. And how do you find any common ground with our beloved working class Faragistes?! I think the only way is education, and that will start on January the first.

It seems pretty impossible to me, but we all need to be less emotional and try to rationalise our way through this - which seems to me to be roughly what old refreshingly boring Mr. Starmer is trying to do.

I get where your coming from but I don't think it's about Starmer needing to ride 3 horses to appeal to as many voters as possible, he needs to influence public opinion with good arguments to win those voters over.
Problem we've had for the last few years is weak leadership who have allowed the far right to dictate public opinion, the far right have run riot over the left the last 5 yrs.  we need leadership capable of challenging bulls,, with good arguments the public will nod along with,  people believed the right wing propaganda before they supported right wing policies. Labour need a leader with the intellignce to challenge the propaganda with good arguments.
BLM is a issue that's only arisen under Starmer. I think he's handled it very well.
I support BLM aims, especially in the USA but Starmer was 100% right to say the calls to defund the police are nonsense, the 2 issues are different, funding to improve black lives is 1 issue am sure Starmers willing to talk about, defunding the police is a separate issue. it's a ridicules suggestion.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Good post mate, and I couldn’t agree more with your second paragraph.

And in general, as I mentioned on here a little while back, there’s been a steady flow of people I know leaving the party over the last few weeks and people who were campaigning for Labour a few months ago (and in elections previous to that) now feel completely pushed out and disenfranchised for a myriad of reasons.

Appreciate that my circle - and Liverpool in general as a place to live - doesn’t represent this country as a whole but there’s a lot of disillusionment about at the moment, and that’s never a good thing.

I think given the scale and the trauma of the defeat in December and the electoral mountain that now faces Labour I don't think it is surprising that many are giving up on individual engagement in parliamentary politics and are redirecting their energies elsewhere.

[Peabee]

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

His dismissal of BLM movement as a “moment” and the refusal to call out the far right protestors/rioters as racist have put him under sever scrutiny for me. I’m not black, but I’m not ignoring shit like this anymore just because it affects other people. I want to see zero tolerance across the board on all racism and bigotry. I’m hoping he clarifies his position this week.

You’re not alone from speaking to BAME friends and social media mutuals. There’s a feeling he’s pandering to certain racists to win votes.

[Dench57]

His dismissal of BLM movement as a “moment” and the refusal to call out the far right protestors/rioters as racist have put him under sever scrutiny for me. I’m not black, but I’m not ignoring shit like this anymore just because it affects other people. I want to see zero tolerance across the board on all racism and bigotry. I’m hoping he clarifies his position this week.

You’re not alone from speaking to BAME friends and social media mutuals. There’s a feeling he’s pandering to certain racists to win votes.

I think "defunding the police" is a terrible phrase. We've already seen in this thread how Joe Public hears "defunding" and immediately assumes it must mean the complete abolition of anything resembling a police force. Anyone who has followed BLM or anything that's happened over the last few weeks knows that isn't what it means. But I understand why it was a bad word to choose. Howeverrrrrrrrrrr.....

I do feel that Starmer fucked up on this one. He knows full well that "defunding" is not to be taken literally.

I don't expect him to back calls to defund the police - calls which are not particularly loud in the UK. In fact, I would have expected him to say "I don't think it's a good idea to defund the police. As DPP I saw first hand some of the great work the police can do. But what I think these calls speak to is...".

He could have talked about how investment in social services/early intervention/rehabilitation (all gutted by the Tories) can be more effective than policing at reducing crime.
But he didn't.
He could have referred to his own Justice Secretary's report into treatment of BAME people in the British justice system.
But he didn't.

What he did do was minimise BLM to a "moment", and then go on to define organised collective calls to address racial injustice in a country he wants to govern (as leader of an allegedly left-wing, allegedly anti-racist party) as a protest about the death of one man 4000 miles away.

What he did do was signal that he has no intention of taking seriously the concerns that people have taken to the streets to express about the racial inequalities in this country. 

What he did do was try to outflank the fucking Tories on the "Culture Wars".

Apropos of something, or nothing, I'm not sure because I'm white and middle-class - two of my black mates that I'm in Whatsapp groups with, neither of whom are particularly vocal or online in their politics, announced in disgust that they will be leaving the Labour party - I want to challenge them on that, but I'm struggling to find a solid argument for them to stay.

[Zeb]

I can understand the desire to want to avoid using 'movement' in that interview, given the various groups calling themselves BLM and announcing political aims - including the one which does want to 'defund the police' as a step towards 'abolish[ing] the police'. Can also understand why some would read into that a sense away from wanting to view it as a historic moment.

[12C]

So Cummings has decided to tear up Planning Rules and made his lackey (the PM) announce it to the nation?

Saves him applying for retrospective permissions for his bolt hole.

[killer-heels]

So, is Starmer racist? Or does he not give a shit about black people?

[Zeb]

Interesting the Premier League also making some clarifications.

In its statement, the Premier League said it stood alongside players, club and a wide range of football organisations who had "come together in recent weeks to reject racism and to show support for the message that black lives matter".

The league said "Black Lives Matter" had become an "expression of unity for people from all communities who believe it is unacceptable to treat black people differently to anyone else".

"In an unprecedented move, Premier League players from all 20 clubs united in solidarity with this message and the Premier League supported their request to replace their names on the back of playing shirts with 'Black Lives Matter'," the statement added.

"The Premier League offered this backing as we wholly agree with the players' single objective of eradicating racial prejudice wherever it exists. And we are unequivocal in the belief that there is no room for racism in our competition, football as a whole, or the wider community."

Explaining that "professional football bodies and the players and managers recognise the importance of the message that black lives matter", the league added: "We do not endorse any political organisation or movement, nor support any group that calls for violence or condones illegal activity.

"We are aware of the risk posed by groups that seek to hijack popular causes and campaigns to promote their own political views.

"These actions are entirely unwelcome and are rejected by the Premier League and all other professional football bodies, and they underline the importance of our sport coming together to declare a very clear position against prejudice. We want our message to be a positive one that recognises football has the power to bring people together."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53242328

[So… Howard Philips]

So, is Starmer racist? Or does he not give a shit about black people?

Wow - That escalated quickly.

Still waiting for a link to his comments etc about supporting right wing racists.

[AndyMuller]

Good post mate, and I couldn’t agree more with your second paragraph.

And in general, as I mentioned on here a little while back, there’s been a steady flow of people I know leaving the party over the last few weeks and people who were campaigning for Labour a few months ago (and in elections previous to that) now feel completely pushed out and disenfranchised for a myriad of reasons.

Appreciate that my circle - and Liverpool in general as a place to live - doesn’t represent this country as a whole but there’s a lot of disillusionment about at the moment, and that’s never a good thing.

Labour can afford to lose votes in places like Liverpool though in the grand scheme of things.

[The Gulleysucker]

And in other news, Seumas Milne has thankfully now left, no doubt to vigorous suggestions from many that he should pursue sex and travel ringing in his ears.

[Cpt_Reina]

So, is Starmer racist? Or does he not give a shit about black people?

Less of a shit I think is the proposition.

Starmer's 'zero tolerance' on racism and discrimination appears to be slightly hierarchical at the moment.

[TepidT2O]

Wow - That escalated quickly.

Still waiting for a link to his comments etc about supporting right wing racists.

I have looked for anything and I can’t find it, so it would be good to know what he’s supposed to have said/done.

[Snail]

Labour can afford to lose votes in places like Liverpool though in the grand scheme of things.

Of course, and Manchester, London etc. Up to a point.

[Bobsackamano]

Less of a shit I think is the proposition.

Starmer's 'zero tolerance' on racism and discrimination appears to be slightly hierarchical at the moment.

Is it a proposition though or just half baked smears from a section of the labour party who are flapping about their own racism being exposed by the upcoming EHRC report on the Labour party under the previous leader?

[Cpt_Reina]

Is it a proposition though or just half baked smears from a section of the labour party who are flapping about their own racism being exposed by the upcoming EHRC report on the Labour party under the previous leader?

I don't think Starmer's treatment of Nandy and RBL are quite in line, personally, so I think it has something behind it.

He's made a few further missteps on BLM and was quite reductive on that. As well as reducing the trans-rights issue to 'brick throwing' on both sides

I don't think it's totally without merit, again, only my opinion.

[Lusty]

Just had a quick look at the BLM UK Twitter account and nearly every Tweet in the last few days is about Israel, so I think Starmer might do well to distance himself from them in the current climate. 

How you walk the line between supporting the overall message of BLM and avoiding association with the people behind the 'official' movement I'm not sure.

[Snail]

Is it a proposition though or just half baked smears from a section of the labour party who are flapping about their own racism being exposed by the upcoming EHRC report on the Labour party under the previous leader?

Given the amount of black people who have said they’re deeply uncomfortable with Labour’s handling of this, I think that’s somewhat, erm... dismissive.

[Bobsackamano]

I don't think Starmer's treatment of Nandy and RBL are quite in line, personally, so I think it has something behind it.

He's made a few further missteps on BLM and was quite reductive on that. As well as reducing the trans-rights issue to 'brick throwing' on both sides

I don't think it's totally without merit, again, only my opinion.

Doreen Lawrence would disagree, she was one of his backers when launching his leadership bid and has spoken about how much he helped the family to finally achieve a measure of justice for her son when he was in charge of the CPS.

I dont know about this Nandy thing you mentioned?

[Snail]

Still waiting for a link to his comments etc about supporting right wing racists.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t read Real Rasta’s post properly, rather than take this as a deliberate twisting of words. They didn’t claim that Starmer “supports right wing racists”, they expressed disappointment in the weakness of his response to right wing racists. Even our PM - an actual racist - managed to call them what they were.

He really is, as someone who is black and also thought he was the standout candidate to be leader I'm extremely disappointed between this and his refusal to call the Britain First lot racist earlier in the month. Now Labour don't stand where I live but if they did he wouldn't get my vote right now and would have a lot of work to do to get it and I know that family and friends over in England share the same view.

The zero tolerance across the board when it comes to racism is 100% spot on too, you don't pick and choose what you're strong on and what is ok to pussyfoot around because voters (we stick our nose up at anti-semites but other racists are ok?), disappointed but not surprised at the difference in attitude and tone in here between anti-semitism issues and BAME issues.

Starmer’s comments are linked below, and start with a nice bit of both-sidesery about the police. Weak as piss, if you ask me.

https://www.indy100.com/article/keir-starmer-london-protest-far-right-racist-racism-9565111

[Bobsackamano]

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt

😂😂😂

[Jiminy Cricket]

Just had a quick look at the BLM UK Twitter account and nearly every Tweet in the last few days is about Israel, so I think Starmer might do well to distance himself from them in the current climate. 

How you walk the line between supporting the overall message of BLM and avoiding association with the people behind the 'official' movement I'm not sure.

By the way, what makes it 'official'? Genuine question.

[Zeb]

It's actually interesting how both Johnson and Starmer condemn actions (rather than label people) but Johnson focuses on a 'subversion' of the protests whereas Starmer says it's rotten from the top.

Comes down to this, from Starmer at least, really.

It is worth pointing out, however, that despite being deep-seated, values are not immutable; on the other hand, it is unlikely that telling people they are wrong, or racist, or immoral in increasingly loud tones will win over hearts, or votes. Recognition of the shared agenda of inequality, economic insecurity and disconnection from political elites is far more likely to generate the sense of solidarity necessary to pursue a progressive agenda than to sneer disapprovingly at the values of others on the economic left. Sincere attempts to engage with and understand the positions of other groups with whom the liberal left share broad economic policy agreement will not only make it more likely that progressive economic politics may prevail, but may also help make a more progressive and positive view of democracy possible. Failure of parties on the left to engage with these voters leaves the space open for those on the (radical) right to fill, and poses a threat to democratic values and ideals well beyond the positional politics of left and right.

http://www.renewal.org.uk/articles/the-fragmentation-of-the-electoral-left-since-2010

[Snail]

😂😂😂

Alright there chief?

[Lusty]

By the way, what makes it 'official'? Genuine question.

And a good question.  I saw the blue tick and the words 'Official page for #BlackLivesMatterUK' in the bio and assumed some kind of official status.  But I think you're asking what gives these people the right to make that claim and why Twitter has deemed them worth of the blue tick and I have no idea to be honest.