Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Snail]

Disagreed with previous leaders promising lots more police too tbf.

Same 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Kenny's Jacket]

Disagreed with previous leaders promising lots more police too tbf.

Same 🤷🏻‍♀️

Why?

[bornandbRED]

It's definitely interesting how things shift from promising lots more police to it being wrong to dismiss the idea of even more cuts to their budget.

Don’t think anyone’s raging that he doesn’t want to decimate the police force. Pretty clear that’s not the issue here. As you know.

[The North Bank]

I’m feeling pretty despondent about everything to be honest.

Apart from your football team.

I dont have that luxury.

[Snail]

For what’s it’s worth, both my parents are Brexit voters who voted Labour until 2010. They don’t mind Starmer, but they said they’d still vote Tory because they see Starmer as too much of a Remainer. If these are the votes Labour are trying to win back, they’ve a mountain to climb.

Edit: They do think BLM is pointless so I guess he’ll have got brownie points for that

[OOS]

Agreed. Completely bonkers and self-defeating.

A slogan, which you need paragraphs to explain that it's not what you actually mean is ridiculous. I fully support investment and resources in community and social programs, prevention and intervention are the best way to tackle the ills of society however preaching 'defund the police' in the UK is not the right way to go about it.

And people wonder why the general public reject the left and think we are nuts. Agree with what Welshred said above.

[Kenny's Jacket]

For what’s it’s worth, both my parents are Brexit voters who voted Labour until 2010. They don’t mind Starmer, but they said they’d still vote Tory because they see Starmer as too much of a Remainer. If these are the votes Labour are trying to win back, they’ve a mountain to climb.

Edit: They do think BLM is pointless so I guess he’ll have got brownie points for that

Forgive the nosiness but  how did they vote between 2010 - 2016, when Brexit reared its ugly head?  Are they still living in Wales?

[Snail]

Forgive the nosiness but  how did they vote between 2010 - 2016, when Brexit reared its ugly head?  Are they still living in Wales?

They’ve been Tory since 2010. I don’t get on with them all that well anymore.

[Dr. Beaker]

By the sounds of it Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is going to be greatest ever Labour Prime Minister. Don't know how its going to play on his backbenches though. If only he could have got his app working, or his bridge, or his island or............then people could even think of believing him.

[Zeb]

Disagreed with previous leaders promising lots more police too tbf.

I must have missed the heated debates on it within the party generally this past decade. All kind of reminds me of the 2019 manifesto really. Some nice ideas have a slogan attached but little of the long term work done to build support. Whole lot gets rejected because very online Labour isn't representative of even Labour voters.

[Kenny's Jacket]

They’ve been Tory since 2010. I don’t get on with them all that well anymore.

OK, sorry if that came across nosey.  I've been interested in how Brexit fucked labour more than the tories and why Wales voted leave.

[OOS]

By the sounds of it Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is going to be greatest ever Labour Prime Minister. Don't know how its going to play on his backbenches though. If only he could have got his app working, or his bridge, or his island or............then people could even think of believing him.

It's been 10 years of talking, no action. Sums them up. Brilliant at political campaigning, rubbish at governing. It's what you get for having a party that lacks any substance.

[So… Howard Philips]

I’m feeling pretty despondent about everything to be honest.

At least there'll be a bit of light relief with the Title coming home in the next couple of weeks before Johnson's government completely cock up any hope of a Covid recovery leading to the misery of winter.

That's when true despondency will kick in.

[filopastry]

Starmer looks like someone who is trying to stay relatively clear of any kind of "culture war" when it comes to social issues, but ultimately will likely be a lot more left economically than maybe some are expecting.

That is something that the current UK population might just vote for in the right circumstances, although there is a lot of residual antipathy towards Labour to overcome. He obviously won't get an easy ride within the party as it is currently made up though

[bornandbRED]

Can’t see how Labour can win back voters who have their Brexit messiah in charge. A government that is more right wing than anything we’ve seen in decades, which seems to resonate with large swathes of the country. All whilst having pretty free economic policy - which takes away that angle to a large extent.

If Starmer pursues the path of diet Tory, what alternative is he offering that this country will jump for, that Johnson is already not providing? Let’s not begin talking about Scotland.

[TSC]

So Cummings has decided to tear up Planning Rules and made his lackey (the PM) announce it to the nation? 

[filopastry]

Can’t see how Labour can win back voters who have their Brexit messiah in charge. A government that is more right wing than anything we’ve seen in decades, which seems to resonate with large swathes of the country. All whilst having pretty free economic policy - which takes away that angle to a large extent.

If Starmer pursues the path of diet Tory, what alternative is he offering that this country will jump for, that Johnson is already not providing? Let’s not begin talking about Scotland.

By 2024 I severely doubt Brexit is going to be a leading issue unless Labour choose to make it one.

My guess on Starmer is that he will run a long way from "diet Tory" on the economy/public services etc., he will just try to stay clear of "culture war" issues that the Tories seem keen to talk about, you can address those issues in power anyway, don't let yourself be defined by them when you are out of step with majority public opinion on most of them.

[oldfordie]

By 2024 I severely doubt Brexit is going to be a leading issue unless Labour choose to make it one.

My guess on Starmer is that he will run a long way from "diet Tory" on the economy/public services etc., he will just try to stay clear of "culture war" issues that the Tories seem keen to talk about, you can address those issues in power anyway, don't let yourself be defined by them when you are out of step with majority public opinion on most of them.

I don't think Starmer is steering clear on the BLM issue. he's nipping the"Defund the police" slogan in the bud. imagine the country getting behind such a dangerous absurd policy.
BLM may look back at this moment in time and accept they should have handled the demands to improve the lives and opportunities for black people in this country better.

[Cpt_Reina]

Lots of talk about Starmer and his appeal to the red wall in England, winning back those votes, but what is his appeal and plan for Scotland and Wales exactly?

Why would Scottish voters go for Starmer's Labour and not the SNP if anti brexi, or the tories if pro Brexit?

Will be an increasingly similar story in Wales once they catch up with the Scots independence wise, covid helping that along nicely.

[Snail]

By 2024 I severely doubt Brexit is going to be a leading issue unless Labour choose to make it one.

My guess on Starmer is that he will run a long way from "diet Tory" on the economy/public services etc., he will just try to stay clear of "culture war" issues that the Tories seem keen to talk about, you can address those issues in power anyway, don't let yourself be defined by them when you are out of step with majority public opinion on most of them.

Out of interest, what makes you say that?

[ljycb]

I must have missed the heated debates on it within the party generally this past decade. All kind of reminds me of the 2019 manifesto really. Some nice ideas have a slogan attached but little of the long term work done to build support. Whole lot gets rejected because very online Labour isn't representative of even Labour voters.

I agree. Loved a lot of the ideas put forward in the 2019 manifesto personally but felt they were communicated quite poorly.

[Felch Aid]

Can’t see how Labour can win back voters who have their Brexit messiah in charge. A government that is more right wing than anything we’ve seen in decades, which seems to resonate with large swathes of the country. All whilst having pretty free economic policy - which takes away that angle to a large extent.

If Starmer pursues the path of diet Tory, what alternative is he offering that this country will jump for, that Johnson is already not providing? Let’s not begin talking about Scotland.

Borrowing is cheap and any tax hike can come after 2024 will be the risk the Tories take and is their only route out. Any future manifesto will simply omit any reference to raise taxes. Throwing money at things isn't always the answer and I'm not convinced the cummings soundbites will have the same traction with economic recovery and stability which appealed to the Brexit movement.

[filopastry]

Out of interest, what makes you say that?

I know a few who have had some dealings with him, and all described him as being on the left of centre in the PLP on economic issues, and to be honest that doesn't seem to me to be Labour's core problem with the public, I don't think progressive economic policies are vote losers as long as they are believable.

[oldfordie]

Lots of talk about Starmer and his appeal to the red wall in England, winning back those votes, but what is his appeal and plan for Scotland and Wales exactly?

Why would Scottish voters go for Starmer's Labour and not the SNP if anti brexi, or the tories if pro Brexit?

Will be an increasingly similar story in Wales once they catch up with the Scots independence wise, covid helping that along nicely.

I don't think any Labour leader has a chance of wining back Scotland after the s,,storm we are about to face, assuming they are given the opportunity of course as Scotland may well vote for independence. all down to Brexit.
We will see how Wales feels about Brexit in the coming years.

[Zeb]

I agree. Loved a lot of the ideas put forward in the 2019 manifesto personally but felt they were communicated quite poorly.

See what meaningful changes Labour (as a party, and institutionally) is willing to put its name to. 'Defund the police' (and 'moment') are going to hit sour notes but there's other ways to get to same place. And there's stuff beyond that which is clearly still not quite right. Did you catch Evans' letter to members on Monday? Ensuring diversity in hiring is going to help so far as permanent staff at the party are concerned. Hopefully see support to allow people from different backgrounds to take up such posts.

[Snail]

Ensuring diversity in hiring is going to help so far as permanent staff at the party are concerned. Hopefully see support to allow people from different backgrounds to take up such posts.

They could start with the Shadow Cabinet!

[Zeb]

They could start with the Shadow Cabinet!

I think it's a quarter of the shadow cabinet would consider themselves to be black or part of a minority ethnic group? Not including junior positions on the front bench.

[Bobsackamano]

They could start with the Shadow Cabinet!

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/labour-shadow-cabinet

The parliament elected in 2019 is the most diverse in history and the new shadow cabinet is also more ethnically diverse than its predecessor. There are seven Black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) MPs in the shadow cabinet, or 22% of the total, up from 12% in the outgoing cabinet. This compares with 15% BAME representation in the cabinet.

Over 50% of the Labour shadow cabinet is female, compared with 45% of the last Labour shadow cabinet and just 27% of the current cabinet. Dodds is also the first woman ever to serve as either chancellor or shadow chancellor.

[Circa1892]

Theresa May absolutely seething in parliament. Her journey from loyal, obliging former-PM backbencher to angry former cabinet minister who hates her successors and isn't about to be quiet about it has been nothing but rapid. Problem being she's not exactly a figure who inspires much loyalty, so doesn't have the clout someone with her political background would usually have to make life difficult for Johnson, Gove etc...

[Zeb]

Lots of talk about Starmer and his appeal to the red wall in England, winning back those votes, but what is his appeal and plan for Scotland and Wales exactly?

Why would Scottish voters go for Starmer's Labour and not the SNP if anti brexi, or the tories if pro Brexit?

Will be an increasingly similar story in Wales once they catch up with the Scots independence wise, covid helping that along nicely.

Wales is a fair bit behind Scotland on independence. There's also a difference in which way the voters lean. Labour leaning voters in Wales have more in common with traditional socially conservative Labour voters. Scotland is much more towards the socially liberal side of things. But Scotland is a bit of a black hole for Labour at the moment. From what's come out so far, it looks like trying to consolidate a 'unionist' vote and build incrementally from there. Realistically, it's hard to see how a second referendum doesn't happen at some point and, right now, how it doesn't take Scotland out of the union. So may be more useful, for the long term, to be thinking how to overturn Rees Mogg's majority unless a really compelling case for the union can be made.

[So… Howard Philips]

See what meaningful changes Labour (as a party, and institutionally) is willing to put its name to. 'Defund the police' (and 'moment') are going to hit sour notes but there's other ways to get to same place. And there's stuff beyond that which is clearly still not quite right. Did you catch Evans' letter to members on Monday? Ensuring diversity in hiring is going to help so far as permanent staff at the party are concerned. Hopefully see support to allow people from different backgrounds to take up such posts.

So, in theory, it should stop people at the top of the Party employing each other's offspring

[Ray K]

Theresa May absolutely seething in parliament. Her journey from loyal, obliging former-PM backbencher to angry former cabinet minister who hates her successors and isn't about to be quiet about it has been nothing but rapid. Problem being she's not exactly a figure who inspires much loyalty, so doesn't have the clout someone with her political background would usually have to make life difficult for Johnson, Gove etc...

I think her utter hatred of Gove & Johnson will make her stay in the Commons rather than go to the Lords.  It's too difficult to fling a knife at their backs from a different chamber.

[So… Howard Philips]

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/labour-shadow-cabinet

The parliament elected in 2019 is the most diverse in history and the new shadow cabinet is also more ethnically diverse than its predecessor. There are seven Black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) MPs in the shadow cabinet, or 22% of the total, up from 12% in the outgoing cabinet. This compares with 15% BAME representation in the cabinet.

Over 50% of the Labour shadow cabinet is female, compared with 45% of the last Labour shadow cabinet and just 27% of the current cabinet. Dodds is also the first woman ever to serve as either chancellor or shadow chancellor.

Away with you and your pesky facts.

[So… Howard Philips]

I think her utter hatred of Gove & Johnson will make her stay in the Commons rather than go to the Lords.  It's too difficult to fling a knife at their backs from a different chamber.

Geoffrey Howe levels of spite springs to mind.

[bornandbRED]

By 2024 I severely doubt Brexit is going to be a leading issue unless Labour choose to make it one.

My guess on Starmer is that he will run a long way from "diet Tory" on the economy/public services etc., he will just try to stay clear of "culture war" issues that the Tories seem keen to talk about, you can address those issues in power anyway, don't let yourself be defined by them when you are out of step with majority public opinion on most of them.

Brexit will be absolutely in the discourse. Anything less than absolute disaster (which is possible) will be presented as a roaring success by the Tories, and continue to be swallowed by the 51% as a successful liberation of some sort. It's not going to go away.

Economic policy is a weird one, because this government does not seem to want any more austerity. It seems to genuinely want to spend on infrastructure and public services; Sunak's budget alluded to this even before the onset of COVID, and the stimulus package announced today is another step in that direction. So not sure that will be as effective an attack angle over the next few years.

[So… Howard Philips]

Brexit will be absolutely in the discourse. Anything less than absolute disaster (which is possible) will be presented as a roaring success by the Tories, and continue to be swallowed by the 51% as a successful liberation of some sort. It's not going to go away.

Economic policy is a weird one, because this government does not seem to want any more austerity. It seems to genuinely want to spend on infrastructure and public services; Sunak's budget alluded to this even before the onset of COVID, and the stimulus package announced today is another step in that direction. So not sure that will be as effective an attack angle over the next few years.

The thing with spending on infrastructure is that you need the skills to build new hospitals, schools, railways etc. Do we have sufficient trained staff to do the work? I can't see an unemployed tatto artist quickly acquiring engineering skills for instance.

Obviously the easy alternative ( and to ensure that the tax money flows into the Tories backers coffers) will be to import that workforce from Europe. So back to square one.

[ShakaHislop]

I hope a poll is done asking people not whether they like what Johnson is promising with his "New Deal"/"Project Speed"/*insert shit slogan created by a SPAD graduate who's never had a proper job*, but whether they actually believe he'll deliver on it.

[filopastry]

Brexit will be absolutely in the discourse. Anything less than absolute disaster (which is possible) will be presented as a roaring success by the Tories, and continue to be swallowed by the 51% as a successful liberation of some sort. It's not going to go away.

Economic policy is a weird one, because this government does not seem to want any more austerity. It seems to genuinely want to spend on infrastructure and public services; Sunak's budget alluded to this even before the onset of COVID, and the stimulus package announced today is another step in that direction. So not sure that will be as effective an attack angle over the next few years.

In true Johnson style they will hype up what they are doing a hell of a lot more than actually delivering a great deal.

Today is a another example of talking about stuff they have already announced as some ambitious new initiative.

[So… Howard Philips]

I hope a poll is done asking people not whether they like what Johnson is promising with his "New Deal"/"Project Speed"/*insert shit slogan created by a SPAD graduate who's never had a proper job*, but whether they actually believe he'll deliver on it.

Just look at how effective the spending as a result of Windrush has been as evidence of their ability/ desire to pay out on their promises.

Unfortunately I'd suggest an analytical examination of Johnson's financial promises will pale into insignificance next to Boris's promise to let you go the pub and gave a fortnight pissing in the streets if Torremolinos.

[ShakaHislop]

Just look at how effective the spending as a result of Windrush has been as evidence of their ability/ desire to pay out on their promises.

Unfortunately I'd suggest an analytical examination of Johnson's financial promises will pale into insignificance next to Boris's promise to let you go the pub and gave a fortnight pissing in the streets if Torremolinos.

It's pitiful that the same people who think they're being "anti-establishment" by voting for Johnson's Brexit Tories are the ones who will be buying into big, shiny spending promises, a classic move of "establishment" politicians since the dawn of time.