Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Elmo!]

That joke was udderly terrible.

What's your beef?

[ljycb]

Labour leader Keir Starmer has appealed to Black voters not to leave the party, following backlash over an interview in which he dismissed the Black Lives Matter goal of defunding the police as “nonsense”.

HuffPost UK revealed in June that scores of Black people were leaving or considering leaving the party over concerns that anti-Black racism was not being adequately addressed by the leadership.

It was sparked by a leaked report into anti-Semitism in the party, drafted in March and leaked in April, which also appeared to uncover examples of Afriphobia – prompting Starmer to appoint a four-person panel to investigate.

Still, Black voters have expressed disappointment with silence on the matter from leadership while this is underway.

Speaking to BBC Breakfast on Monday, Starmer said: “Nobody should be saying anything about defunding the police.

“I was director of public prosecutions for five years. I’ve worked with police forces across England and Wales bringing thousands of people to court, so my support for the police is very strong.”

Now, amid growing backlash from people who described his interview as “disappointing” and cited it as grounds to part ways with Labour, Starmer is appealing to Black people to stay.

“I don’t want anybody to leave the Labour Party,” Starmer told HuffPost UK on Thursday.

“The Labour Party is a broad church. It is a place that I hope and am determined that Black people feel that they are welcome, that they want to be; we definitely need as much Black representation in the Labour Party as we can possibility get.”

The Labour leader described the party as “anti-racist” and suggested that disciplinary procedures have already taken place internally.

“Amongst the reasons we took the actions that we did [to order an independent inquiry] was to try to show as quickly as we could to people that they could have confidence in [deputy leader] Angela Rayner and myself to root out racism and to take swift action in order to do so without inhibitions. [...]

“We take it really seriously. Angela Rayner and I are determined to root out any racism in the party – whether that’s staff or members. We are a proudly anti-racist party. They are our core values and principles.

“Without hours of getting the leaked report we had ordered an independent inquiry. We didn’t delay, we didn’t just leave it to the internal process, and we have not inhibited that inquiry in any way whatsoever.

“It’s been in place in a matter of a few weeks and people will judge us, I think, when those reports come in. I’m determined it’ll be independent and I’m determined we’ll act upon it when we see the results of that report.

“Meanwhile the internal processes are going on and that has led to action already – albeit, frustratingly, for a number of weeks I wasn’t able to point to that when people were criticising me because of the confidentiality of the process.”

He added: “I asked the team, headed up by Martin Forde QC, to go wherever he needs to go on this, and they’ll report to us. There’s no ‘no go areas’. He has not been given any instructions not to look at anything – he has got complete freedom to go where he needs to go, such is the determination to root out any racism in our party and deal with it – and be seen to deal with it – effectively.”

PA Wire/PA Images
Dawn Butler and Diane Abbott at Labour's Women's Conference in the Telford International Centre.
Black voters are still reeling from the aftermath of the leaked report and many have told us that they now feel “politically homeless”.

The lengthy document revealed that Labour officials used a string of insults in private WhatsApp groups to describe senior Black MPs and officials including Diane Abbott, Dawn Butler and Clive Lewis.

Among those disappointed by the contents of the report were London Mahmoud Junju, who told HuffPost UK it was “damning” and said he found the silence of the upper echelons of the party worrying. He cancelled his membership after almost a decade.

“The findings exposed anti-Blackness in the party – especially towards Black Labour MPs like Auntie Abbott. She’s one MP who has faced the most abuse in recent British history and we can’t ignore the fact that it’s mainly because she’s a Black woman,” he said.

Starmer’s recent BBC interview won the praise of far-right leader Nigel Frottage. When asked by HuffPost UK about his view on that, the Labour leader replied – twice – “I have nothing in common with Nigel Frottage.”

From Huffington Post.

[killer-heels]

If I bothered to become a Labour party member then I would be in trouble because I would also insult Clive Lewis, Diane Abbott and Dawn Butler.

[ShakaHislop]

From Huffington Post.

What evidence are people putting forward that the criticism of Abbott, Lewis and Butler is motivated by the colour of their skin?

Also:

“The findings exposed anti-Blackness in the party – especially towards Black Labour MPs like Auntie Abbott. She’s one MP who has faced the most abuse in recent British history and we can’t ignore the fact that it’s mainly because she’s a Black woman,” he said.

A bit weird.

[killer-heels]

What evidence are people putting forward that the criticism of Abbott, Lewis and Butler is motivated by the colour of their skin?

Also:

A bit weird.

Could have been weirder. Could have called her Mummy Abbott. I imagine that's more a Tory thing though.

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit: Serious differences over trade deal, say UK and EU

The UK and EU have said serious differences remain over a post-Brexit trade deal, following the latest negotiations in Brussels.

EU negotiator Michel Barnier said the bloc's position needed to be "better understood and respected" by the UK if an agreement is to be found.

His UK counterpart David Frost said "significant" disagreement remained on "a number of important issues".

The UK has ruled out extending the December deadline to reach a deal.

The latest round of talks, the first to be held in person since the Covid-19 crisis struck, came after both sides agreed to "intensify" negotiations last month.

Negotiations have continued throughout the pandemic via video link. An additional five weeks of in-person talks are planned for July and early August.

BBC Europe reporter Gavin Lee said the latest round of talks had broken up a day early, with a discussion between the two chief negotiators tomorrow cancelled.

Mr Frost said the face-to-face talks had given "extra depth and flexibility" to discussions on a "full range of issues" over trade and a future partnership.

"But they have also underlined the significant differences that still remain between us on a number of important issues," he added.

"We remain committed to working hard to find an early understanding on the principles underlying an agreement."

Equally, Mr Barnier said "serious divergences remain" after the four days of talks, although the EU believed an agreement was still possible.

"The EU engaged constructively, as we had already done during the fourth round of negotiations in June," he added.

"The EU expects, in turn, its positions to be better understood and respected in order to reach an agreement.

"We need an equivalent engagement by the United Kingdom."

Mr Barnier underlined that the EU expects "parallel progress" in all areas of the negotiations.

This is a point of difference with the UK - which wants to negotiate separate agreements in areas such as fisheries, alongside a basic free trade deal.

Mr Barnier also reiterated the EU would not agree to a deal without "robust" guarantees on the so-called "level playing field" for competition between business.

He added this would include the area of state support for companies.

Just like when it was an EU member, the UK remains tied to the bloc's "state aid" rules during the 11-month transition period due to end in December 2020.

The UK has not yet unveiled plans for its post-Brexit state aid regime, but PM Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has previously said he wants to make it easier for the UK government to provide assistance to struggling firms.

The two sides also remain deadlocked over the issue of fishing rights - an area where they had previously pledged to find agreement by last month.

The EU wants to uphold its existing access to British waters for vessels from member states, to avoid economic disruption for their fishermen.

But the UK wants to hold annual talks with the bloc over access to its waters, as it currently does with nations such as Norway.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53266902

[TSC]

Brexit: Serious differences over trade deal, say UK and EU

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53266902

Quelle surprise.

[TepidT2O]

Auntie Abbott

This is a derogatory term.  It reflects back too the US where black people were not given the dignity of being called Mr or Mrs, instead they were referred to as Auntie or uncle.  Hence the racist use of the term Uncle Tom (often used towards Tory ethnic cabinet members), Uncle Ben’s rice etc etc


Whoever said that should be fired

(Derogatory? Racist)

[So… Howard Philips]

If I bothered to become a Labour party member then I would be in trouble because I would also insult Clive Lewis, Diane Abbott and Dawn Butler.

It's not clear from that jumble of words if they were insulted or racially insulted.

I respect your right to insult them but not to racially insult them. If you were a member of the Labour Party.

[ShakaHislop]

Auntie Abbott

This is a derogatory term.  It reflects back too the US where black people were not given the dignity of being called Mr or Mrs, instead they were referred to as Auntie or uncle.  Hence the racist use of the term Uncle Tom (often used towards Tory ethnic cabinet members), Uncle Ben’s rice etc etc


Whoever said that should be fired

(Derogatory? Racist)

I read it as a term of endearment from one of her supporters, and one that appears to have been used (again affectionately) for a number of years now.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%22auntie%20abbott%22&src=typed_query&f=live

[The Real Rasta]

You can't criticise Starmer for not making any further comment on it at this time when by doing so will give the Tories and the media a chance to attack him publicly for supporting what is reported to be extremism within the movement. I'm sure you'll find a way though.

I'm no corbynite, I've previously said Labour don't even stand where I live (the only main party that do is the Torys and that's just for show) so I've no dog in the infighting and it's why I generally stick to lurking in the politics threads. I can't quote it as the leadership election thread is locked but this is what I said in it, 'For me Starmer is hands down the stand out candidate but I do wonder if he is maybe a little too dry for the general public', so no I'm not somebody that's been waiting for any opportunity to stick the boot in. I absolutely can and will criticise him when as a black person I feel he's made a hash of his comments about BLM and when he doesn't call racist thugs what they are because it appears he's too worried about offending racist's votes he's desperate for and for me personally the argument about having to appeal doesn't wash because the percentage of the voting public that are gonna be turned off from calling people throwing up nazi signs and attacking police what they are is miniscule imo. When he talks about zero tolerance but that doesn't seem to apply across the board and only when it plays well to his base or when it's politically beneficial it gets noticed. Now luckily for him he doesn't need to worry about my vote but I've probably talked to/seen comments on social media around 20-30 black family and friends that are potential voters and do feel this way, very few if any are what I would consider politically active, some are like me (politically engaged and take a keen interest if not active or affiliated with any party) and the rest with just a passing interest and there is genuine hurt and anger. Multiple posters in this thread have also confirmed the same about black friends so it is very much a real issue and not some manufactured corbynite outrage. Now if we want to be dismissive of that or just back our guy to the hilt no matter what then cool you're more than entitled to take that stance but it's galling to say the least to see some of the same posters that claimed there was no nuance, concerns had to be listened to and not dismissed when it came to AS now turn around and argue for nuance and dismiss genuine concerns.

Cheers Zeb. It's hard to know what to say really. I hate to be unnecessarily inflammatory, but then again I would have to say people went to some extraordinary lengths to criticise Corbyn - just wish we could bin all this shit, there are far richer Tory seams to be mined.

Well this is it mate isn't it, people shouldn't be sniping and going to extreme lengths to criticise every little thing about Starmer it's wrong but at the same time I've sat and read people do the same to Corbyn over the past 5 years which was also wrong so it's kinda laughable to pull that card or take issue with it going on now. I'm with you on that one and it's why even though there were other candidates that were closer to my political leanings I felt Starmer was the man for the job as he seemed best equipped to unite everyone so it's disappointing to see him falter at least from my perspective this past month after what I thought was a pretty decent start to his leadership.

[So… Howard Philips]

I read it as a term of endearment from one of her supporters, and one that appears to have been used (again affectionately) for a number of years now.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%22auntie%20abbott%22&src=typed_query&f=live

I read it as a term of endearment too.

[Dr. Beaker]

Shouldn't it be Auntie Diane.

[TepidT2O]

I read it as a term of endearment too.

Blimey...


I read at openly racist... 

[ShakaHislop]

Blimey...


I read at openly racist...

Meet "The People's Auntie" and "The People's Niece"

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1162769896209625090

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1162031475971231744

[So… Howard Philips]

Blimey...


I read at openly racist...

I think it's a term of endearment amongst African communities but has a less favourable connotation in the States.

But my view as an elderly Northern white male.....so I may be completely wrong.

[ljycb]

I think it's a term of endearment amongst African communities but has a less favourable connotation in the States.

But my view as an elderly Northern white male.....so I may be completely wrong.

Yeah, seems to be a term of endearment although what Tepid says I didn’t know about - certainly wouldn’t use it myself as a white man.

[Escorcio]

Auntie Abbott

This is a derogatory term.  It reflects back too the US where black people were not given the dignity of being called Mr or Mrs, instead they were referred to as Auntie or uncle.  Hence the racist use of the term Uncle Tom (often used towards Tory ethnic cabinet members), Uncle Ben’s rice etc etc


Whoever said that should be fired

(Derogatory? Racist)

You cannot be serious

[lobsterboy]

I doubt very much Starmer is a racist but you can bet your last pound that Boris Fucking Trump is.

[Sangria]

It could be worse. Imagine if Abbott were accused of being bought by Putin. Then we'd have headlines about "Russ" Abbott. Or if Abbott became ill. "Abbott ails".

[TepidT2O]

You cannot be serious

As Howard Phillips says, it may be used as a term of endearment, but in the states it’s a derogatory term...

[lobsterboy]

It could be worse. Imagine if Abbott were accused of being bought by Putin. Then we'd have headlines about "Russ" Abbott. Or if Abbott became ill. "Abbott ails".

Blunderwoman?

[Escorcio]

As Howard Phillips says, it may be used as a term of endearment, but in the states it’s a derogatory term...

We are not in the states and in black (UK) culture, Uncle/ Auntie is a term of endearment.

People need to stop screaming for the racism card at every given opportunity. Dilutes from the real issues.

[TepidT2O]

We are not in the states and in black (UK) culture, Uncle/ Auntie is a term of endearment.

People need to stop screaming for the racism card at every given opportunity. Dilutes from the real issues.

True, but it is a particular racial slur .... it may not be used in that context, ok. But I’ve heard it used that way in the U.K. before

[west_london_red]

I think it's a term of endearment amongst African communities but has a less favourable connotation in the States.

But my view as an elderly Northern white male.....so I may be completely wrong.

Likewise, in Asian culture calling someone auntie is a term of respect, for an elder who isn’t related to you eg mates mum, parents friends, a neighbour or just more generally someone whose a fair bit older then yourself.

[TepidT2O]

Fucking hell, the one time I stand up for Diane Abbot and it’s a term of endearment after all.

Abbot is horrendous at front bench politics.  But she always seems like a fairly nice person.  And she’s truly remarkable for going to Cambridge and becoming an mp when people form her background.... just didn’t

[The Real Rasta]

I think it's a term of endearment amongst African communities but has a less favourable connotation in the States.

But my view as an elderly Northern white male.....so I may be completely wrong.

This is correct, for Africans we mean it as a term of endearment/respect.

[So… Howard Philips]

Fucking hell, the one time I stand up for Diane Abbot and it’s a term of endearment after all.

Abbot is horrendous at front bench politics.  But she always seems like a fairly nice person.  And she’s truly remarkable for going to Cambridge and becoming an mp when people form her background.... just didn’t

I don't know if you have Northern roots but around Liverpool there were many "Aunties" who weren't blood relations and usually older female friends or well known in the community.

"Uncle" however could have more sinister connotations, such as a "fancy man" or "back door man".

[reddebs]

Was also going to comment as an older white female we had loads of aunties and uncles who weren't blood relatives but family friends or friends parents.

My godparents were also referred to as auntie and uncle.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[The Gulleysucker]

Yes, I was having a conversation with wifey last night about that very thing, how instead of 'Uncle' referencing a direct relative, it was also sometimes used by some mothers to their children to describe their latest fancy man.

On the 'Auntie' as a racist connotation though, I was honestly unaware, I'd never given it any thought, but wifey as an (ex) teacher was.

It's claimed that during US Slave times, many of the owners of said unfortunates would never refer to married slaves in their ownership as Mr & Mrs as it would possibly give them the impression that they were on a level with the owners, so instead they would be called Uncle & Auntie.

As others have said, it seems a very American thing though, certainly many Asian sub Continent familes use 'Auntie' and 'Uncle' very much as a term of endearment  for respected members of their communities.

However, in the light of this now, I do agree that the claimed employment of 'Auntie' regarding Abbott as reported in the document does seem somewhat questionable. There just doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation for it in that context except an element of casual racism.

[ljycb]

@patrickkmaguire of The Times:

Labour say no to extending furlough scheme indefinitely.

[Dr. Beaker]

Yes, I was having a conversation with wifey last night about that very thing, how instead of 'Uncle' referencing a direct relative, it was also sometimes used by some mothers to their children to describe their latest fancy man.

On the 'Auntie' as a racist connotation though, I was honestly unaware, I'd never given it any thought, but wifey as an (ex) teacher was.

It's claimed that during US Slave times, many of the owners of said unfortunates would never refer to married slaves in their ownership as Mr & Mrs as it would possibly give them the impression that they were on a level with the owners, so instead they would be called Uncle & Auntie.

As others have said, it seems a very American thing though, certainly many Asian sub Continent familes use 'Auntie' and 'Uncle' very much as a term of endearment  for respected members of their communities.

However, in the light of this now, I do agree that the claimed employment of 'Auntie' regarding Abbott as reported in the document does seem somewhat questionable. There just doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation for it in that context except an element of casual racism.

But why Auntie Abbott and not Auntie Diane - I've never heard of that.

[Alan_X]

@patrickkmaguire of The Times:

That's a strange take. This is Labour's Position as far as I'm aware:

Extend furlough scheme for people in local lockdown, Labour’s Anneliese Dodds demands

Shadow Chancellor Anneliese Dodds is urging Rishi Sunak to keep the coronavirus furlough scheme going beyond October if people are caught up in a local lockdown.

In her first major speech in the role, the Labour frontbencher called on the Chancellor to “recognise the scale of the challenge we face” and hold a “Back to Work Budget” focused on jobs.

And she will said the Government must make sure that “localised second waves don’t wash away businesses and jobs in their wake” by extending the furlough scheme if needed.

The demand comes after Leicester was put back into lockdown following a spike in cases, with the east midlands city exempt from a host of easing measures that will kick in in the rest of England on Saturday.

But Ms Dodds said: “As with the lifting of lockdown, what we have now is an exit without a strategy.  Government must abandon its one-size-fits-all wind-down of the Job Protection and self-employed schemes.

“We need a targeted strategy that acknowledges that workers in struggling sectors cannot and should not be treated the same way as workers in sectors that are already back to full capacity.

“This is not about ‘picking winners’, in the Chancellor’s words. It is about protecting those who have lost - through no fault of their own. It is about giving people across the country a fair chance. The reward for months of sacrifice cannot be a redundancy notice.”

And the Shadow Chancellor added: “This week we saw a wave of companies announcing enormous job losses - because the government is refusing to shift from its one-size-fits-all approach. To avoid the same flood of redundancy notices for workers within smaller companies later on this month, government must act now - and abandon its one-size-fits-all approach.”

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/extend-furlough-scheme-for-people-in-local-lockdown-labours-anneliese-dodds-demands

[filopastry]

That seems very sensible from Labour.

The economic support from the government has generally been good so far but there is no doubt that it is going to end too early for many sectors of the economy, so unfortunately a lot of job losses will just have been delayed for a few months rather than avoided altogether.

If a more focussed version of the scheme had been extended until a vaccine is available, those jobs did not necesarily need to be lost.

[Jiminy Cricket]

That's a strange take. This is Labour's Position as far as I'm aware:

Extend furlough scheme for people in local lockdown, Labour’s Anneliese Dodds demands

Well, keeping the furlough running for local lock-downs helps keep individuals and companies on a more even field. Otherwise, one area, its population and business are disadvantaged compared to the (presumably) greater number of open areas.

[Zeb]

That's a strange take. This is Labour's Position as far as I'm aware:
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/extend-furlough-scheme-for-people-in-local-lockdown-labours-anneliese-dodds-demands

It's also about emphasis as Labour want to shift government wage subsidies (more generally) from jobs which aren't coming back to ones which are or could be created. Special focus on 'green technology' jobs.

[Alan_X]

That seems very sensible from Labour.

The economic support from the government has generally been good so far but there is no doubt that it is going to end too early for many sectors of the economy, so unfortunately a lot of job losses will just have been delayed for a few months rather than avoided altogether.

If a more focussed version of the scheme had been extended until a vaccine is available, those jobs did not necesarily need to be lost.

My business and others like it will be suffering long after the majority of businesses are back up and running. I have friends who work in theatre and they have no work and no prospect of work for months, possibly a year or more. We have people on furlough but there is nothing in the pipeline for the end of this year or next year.

[bornandbRED]

Labour are also backing a wealth tax on those with assets over 750,000.

The first shoots of policy formulation are becoming apparent. Although I can’t see this one being particularly popular.

[bornandbRED]

Nadine White (@Nadine_Writes) Tweeted: NEW: Labour leader Keir Starmer appeals to Black people not to leave the party. It comes after we revealed in June that scores of Black members and voters had abandoned the party membership following anti-Black racism concerns. https://t.co/8SNKbxOVl6

Understandable.

[So… Howard Philips]

Nadine White (@Nadine_Writes) Tweeted: NEW: Labour leader Keir Starmer appeals to Black people not to leave the party. It comes after we revealed in June that scores of Black members and voters had abandoned the party membership following anti-Black racism concerns. https://t.co/8SNKbxOVl6

Understandable.

Lyjcb posted this yesterday.