Poll

Tory Christmas Party

Nothing like a good old knees up!
They should apologise and come clean
Johnson should resign
The front bench should resign
The entire party should resign
The entire party should be put in an Elon Musk rocket and fired off to jupiter with 2 packets of hula hoops and a pot noodle
I LOVE cheese!

Author Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!  (Read 1163986 times)

Offline ljycb

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Great couple of tweets there from Musa Okwonga.

Quote
For Keir Starmer to restate his strong support for the police in the same week two of them felt comfy enough to share selfies next to two dead black women - for that to be his instinct, the tone and the timing of his words - I have no fitting words of my own.

No, I didn't expect him to call for the defunding of the police. I did expect this to be a week in which he acknowledged the issue of institutional racism within an organisation, given that he has recently been praised for doing just that in his own party.

Offline Devon Red

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Yeah, I’ll happily accept that! He didn’t say anything of the sort.

Great, so then we can agree that Starmer was not speaking against the hidden meaning behind the "defund the police" slogan but was actually literally saying that taking public funding away from the police is nonsense?

Offline west_london_red

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Turns out that defund the police didn’t actually mean defund the police....



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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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I'll be supportive of how it's been framed. It's meant to be provocative. It's meant to pull the conversation away from "More police" "More prisons" as the solutions to crime. Just daft to confuse that with the coalition building a political party has to do, and even dafter to expect Starmer to row in behind such slogans given the political realities the Labour party face and bridges which need to be built.
Well, I was really meaning its use in the US, where (I perceive) the phrase has more traction (and is is being used against BLM and supporters of meaningful change). Still, I am not convinced about its effectiveness in the UK. But I cannot argue against it being 'provocative'.
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Offline ljycb

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Great, so then we can agree that Starmer was not speaking against the hidden meaning behind the "defund the police" slogan but was actually literally saying that taking public funding away from the police is nonsense?

It’s not a hidden meaning and would suspect Starmer knows that but I’ve already accepted what you’re asking of me in the post you’re quoting so I’m going to politely ask you to leave me alone now if that’s alright?

Offline ShakaHislop

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I was going to put this in the George Floyd thread but that's locked, and it's relevant to the current conversation in this thread.

Minneapolis City Council Unanimously Approves Proposal to Disband Police

(MINNEAPOLIS) — The Minneapolis City Council on Friday unanimously approved a radical proposal to change the city charter that would allow the police department to be dismantled, following mass public criticism of law enforcement over the killing of George Floyd.

The 12-0 vote is just the first step in a process that faces significant bureaucratic obstacles to make the November ballot, where the city’s voters would have the final say. And it came amid a spate of recent shootings in Minnesota’s largest city that have heightened many citizens’ concerns about talk of dismantling the department.

The Minneapolis force has come under heavy pressure since Floyd, a Black man in handcuffs, died May 25 after a police officer pressed his knee on Floyd’s neck for nearly eight minutes. Activists had long accused the department of being unable to change a racist and brutal culture, and earlier this month, a majority of the council proclaimed support for dismantling the department.

Doing so would first require amending the city charter. Draft language of the amendment posted online would replace the department with a Department of Community Safety and Violence Prevention, “which will have responsibility for public safety services prioritizing a holistic, public health-oriented approach.”

The amendment goes on to say the director of the new agency would have “non-law-enforcement experience in community safety services, including but not limited to public health and/or restorative justice approaches.” It also provides for a division of licensed peace officers, who would answer to the department’s director.

Council members who support the change are looking to seize on a groundswell of support for significant policing changes following Floyd’s death. If they don’t get the charter change on the November ballot, their next chance won’t come until November 2021, they say.

“It is time to make structural change,” Council Member Steve Fletcher said. “It is time to start from scratch and reinvent what public safety looks like.”

The proposed amendment is expected to be approved Friday, but that’s just a first step. It goes then to a policy committee and to the city’s Charter Commission for formal review. The commission’s recommendation doesn’t bind the council, but it takes time.

Barry Clegg, chairman of the Charter Commission, said the process feels rushed.

“As I understand it, they are saying, ‘We are going to have this new department. We don’t know what it’s going to look like yet. We won’t implement this for a year, we’ll figure it out,’” Clegg said. “For myself anyway, I would prefer that we figured it out first, and then voted on it.”

Clegg said that to get the proposed amendment question on the November ballot, it has to be finalized by Aug. 21. He said if the Charter Commission took its final action at its Aug. 5 meeting, there would likely be enough time for it to get passed by the full council, go through a veto period, and then, if vetoed, have time to spare for a possible mayoral veto override. Once on the ballot, the measure would go to voters.

Mayor Jacob Frey doesn’t support abolishing the department, a stance that got him booed off the street by activists who demonstrated outside his house following Floyd’s death and demanded to know where he stood.

Frey expressed concerns about the proposed amendment as currently drafted, including whether the change would eliminate police altogether or allow for a police presence going forward. He also said that when something currently goes wrong, the chief and the mayor are accountable — but under the new plan, accountability would be dispersed among 14 people. Frey also questioned whether policing practices would vary, based on ward or other factors.

“There is a significant lack of clarity. And if I’m seeing a lack of clarity, so are our constituents,” said Frey, who has said he supports deep structural change in the existing department.

Fletcher said under the new agency when someone calls 911, there will always be a response that’s appropriate, including the option for a response by employees authorized to use force. But he said the vast majority of calls that police officers currently take will be answered by employees with different expertise.

Miski Noor, an organizer with Black Visions, criticized the proposed amendment for creating a division of licensed peace officers at all. She said it “would give current and former police way too much power to shape public safety in Minneapolis.”

Steven Belton, president and chief executive of Urban League Twin Cities, said the way some council members went forward without a concrete plan is “irresponsible.”

“The problem that needs to be stated up front, from my perspective, is racism. … I’m not sure what they are trying to fix here,” he said.

Don Blyly, whose beloved science fiction and mystery bookstores were destroyed by arson in the unrest that followed Floyd’s death, said if local leaders do something “sufficiently stupid” when it comes to policing, he won’t reopen in Minneapolis.

“There are legitimate problems with the Minneapolis police, but the way the politicians are going about it is just ridiculous,” Blyly said. “They are pandering to a certain segment of the electorate.”

https://time.com/5860172/minneapolis-city-council-eliminate-police-george-floyd/

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Great couple of tweets there from Musa Okwonga.

So because Starmerhasn't criticised two police officers accused of a disgusting act he somehow supports institutional racism?

You have to remember he's a lawyer and realises the need to tread carefully to avoid risking the frustration of any prosecution they, rightly, should face.

Offline TepidT2O

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Jesus Christ...

Corbyn nutter Twitter has discovered that Starmer’s wife is Jewish...


Holy crap.....  it’s... awful...

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline FlashGordon

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It’s not a hidden meaning and would suspect Starmer knows that but I’ve already accepted what you’re asking of me in the post you’re quoting so I’m going to politely ask you to leave me alone now if that’s alright?

It is to 90% of the population. When they hear defund the police they don't see all the nice policies and initiatives BLM stated on their twitter. The hear and see defund the police. So he rightfully calls defunding the police nonsense.

Could he have used the question asked to highlight the policies and initiatives BLM stated on their twitter? Yes sure he could have, if he did you could give his answer a plus rating. Without that it's just a neutral answer, not some big negative.

So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Jesus Christ...

Corbyn nutter Twitter has discovered that Starmer’s wife is Jewish...


Holy crap.....  it’s... awful...


Oh my god. Is she Jewish or is she Israeli, what's the chicken soup like, how many press ups can she do and has she ever had him in a choke hold. We need to know and we need to know now!
NAKED BOOBERY

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Offline ljycb

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Jesus Christ...

Corbyn nutter Twitter has discovered that Starmer’s wife is Jewish...


Holy crap.....  it’s... awful...

Disgraceful isn’t it?

It is to 90% of the population. When they hear defund the police they don't see all the nice policies and initiatives BLM stated on their twitter. The hear and see defund the police. So he rightfully calls defunding the police nonsense.

Could he have used the question asked to highlight the policies and initiatives BLM stated on their twitter? Yes sure he could have, if he did you could give his answer a plus rating. Without that it's just a neutral answer, not some big negative.



Sure, but I do feel this works both ways. I don’t think anyone can realistically expect Starmer to come out in support of “defunding the police”, but likewise, a lot of people feel as though he has just dismissed quite an organic element to this movement as “nonsense” and something which “nobody should be talking about”. A lot of you have made good points offering the perspective of Starmer’s position and what it is he needs to do in order to be successful in his role, but there are repercussions from everything he does and it’s more than valid for me to be pointing them out I think.

So because Starmerhasn't criticised two police officers accused of a disgusting act he somehow supports institutional racism?

You have to remember he's a lawyer and realises the need to tread carefully to avoid risking the frustration of any prosecution they, rightly, should face.

I take your point about him being a lawyer but I don’t think Okwonga is saying that Starmer supports institutional racism there.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Jesus Christ...

Corbyn nutter Twitter has discovered that Starmer’s wife is Jewish...


Holy crap.....  it’s... awful...
What am I looking for? Link?
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Offline TepidT2O

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“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline The Gulleysucker

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It passed by earlier today, but Pogrund has reported  the Corbyn appointed Labour director of governance and legal Thomas Gardiner has resigned.

Of course speculation linking this to the possible receiving of the EHRC report today is rife.

I remember him well and thinking at the time it was all somewhat too cosy.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 10:54:25 pm by The Gulleysucker »
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline The Gulleysucker

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That unhinged nonsense actually started a good few weeks back.

It's disgusting.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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https://twitter.com/inthelionsden_/status/1277337601289175046?s=21
There’s lots more too
It is shameful that these people call themselves Labour Party members and socialists.
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Offline bornandbRED

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Great, so then we can agree that Starmer was not speaking against the hidden meaning behind the "defund the police" slogan but was actually literally saying that taking public funding away from the police is nonsense?

We can agree that Maxine Peake was simply criticising Israeli police and no other inference could be made into her comments?

Nuance and deeper meaning was oh so important this time last week, according to the same people completely refusing to acknowledge that now.

Offline Snail

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Quote
Gabriel Pogrund
@Gabriel_Pogrund

Exc: Labour's BAME staff groups demand meeting with Keir Starmer over "discomfort and disappointment" caused by his Black Lives Matter interview

BLM not a "moment" but a "movement" that has given voice to black people globally

Fears of "hierarchy of racism" under his leadership

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1277859532774014976?s=20

The content of the letter is on the tweet.

Offline TSC

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PM comparing himself to Roosevelt now.  Wish our ‘whack-a-mole’ PM would make up his mind whether it’s Churchill or Roosevelt? 

Offline So… Howard Philips

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PM comparing himself to Roosevelt now.  Wish our ‘whack-a-mole’ PM would make up his mind whether it’s Churchill or Roosevelt?

At least it's not Stalin.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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We can agree that Maxine Peake was simply criticising Israeli police and no other inference could be made into her comments?

Nuance and deeper meaning was oh so important this time last week, according to the same people completely refusing to acknowledge that now.

If Maxine Peake had been criticising the Israeli police for their shooting of Palestinian protesters their would have been no complaint.

She was criticised for repeating an untru statement attempting to somehow blame Floyd's death on Israeli involvement.

That's the difference.

Offline Alan_X

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Tell me how they don’t and I might believe you. The only evidence I have up to now is that Starmer is happy to call the demands of BLM “a nonsense” and that Frottage agrees with him.

Frottage is a racist who compared BLM to the Taliban and clearly believes the whole Black Lives Matters movement is nonsense. Starmer described one BLM policy - defunding the police - as nonsense.

Frottage is a right-wing bigotted Eurosceptic. Corbyn was a a left-wing Eurosceptic.

Frottage was clearly trolling and knew exactly what he was doing by saying he 'agreed' with Starmer. He does it to disrupt and undermine people he opposes. His comments about Corbyn served exactly the same purpose. It's sad to see people walk headlong into the trap.
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Offline Alan_X

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We can agree that Maxine Peake was simply criticising Israeli police and no other inference could be made into her comments?

Nuance and deeper meaning was oh so important this time last week, according to the same people completely refusing to acknowledge that now.

“The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline vivabobbygraham

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PM comparing himself to Roosevelt now.  Wish our ‘whack-a-mole’ PM would make up his mind whether it’s Churchill or Roosevelt?

Quote
Never trust a man who dries his hair in a wind tunnel then combs it with a toffee apple.
...If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Offline CONFIAMOS

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Is the 'defund the police' statement not a lot more applicable to the US? Doesn't seem to quite translate over here IMO.


Absolutely.

They spend more on police in schools than any other area. They spend more on police in schools than they do on social support/counselling in schools.

It's unbelievable! Fully support their campaign to put all that money back into education, support work etc etc. it's dying on its arse.

Offline ljycb

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The content of the letter is on the tweet.

It’s fair to say that Starmer has handled this one terribly.

Offline The North Bank

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In my own crazy head, I get thoughts like.

How far right does the labour party need to shift to become electable in our racist country.


Offline Snail

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In my own crazy head, I get thoughts like.

How far right does the labour party need to shift to become electable in our racist country.

The strategy seems to that alienating BAME/young voters is an acceptable risk to take, on the assumption that they’ll vote Labour no matter what. Because I think people need to realise just how much he’s alienating people right now, although I’m aware Corbyn also put people off for different reasons. Whether he’s going to win back enough Labour voters to offset the people who may just not bother voting at all, I’m not sure.

It seems clear that Starmer is trying to court favour with Times/Telegraph readers. My fear is that he’ll alienate Labour voters and the people he’s trying to court favour with will continue to vote Tory, as they always do.

It’s fair to say that Starmer has handled this one terribly.

I’d say so.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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It’s fair to say that Starmer has handled this one terribly.

Is your issue the word moment or movement or both.
I think movement is fine, I cringed at the word moment.
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Offline Zeb

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In my own crazy head, I get thoughts like.

How far right does the labour party need to shift to become electable in our racist country.



Not crazy. But it's not really 'right' vs 'left'.

Spoiler




From https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Mind-the-values-gap.pdf

Or Labour generally are in tune with the electorate on economic injustice (although less so on redistribution), but are far more liberal on social issues than Labour voters and the electorate more generally. Tories are kind of the reverse with them being right wing fruitloops but somewhat closer on social issues currently.

[close]



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Offline Snail

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Is your issue the word moment or movement or both.
I think movement is fine, I cringed at the word moment.

“Moment” was the problem, it was tone deaf.

Offline bornandbRED

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If Maxine Peake had been criticising the Israeli police for their shooting of Palestinian protesters their would have been no complaint.

She was criticised for repeating an untru statement attempting to somehow blame Floyd's death on Israeli involvement.

That's the difference.

The point was that those who took offence to her comments (and RLB in reposting them) saw them in the wider context of anti-Israeli sentiment and conspiracy, rather than at face value.

Conversely, many of the same individuals in this thread are refusing to do that with Starmer’s comments on defunding the police, which quite clearly discredit and dismiss what has been a key part of the BLM movement. Is it really an appropriate time, given recent events - to dismiss this as nonsense? A gaping blind spot. Hypocrisy.

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“Moment” was the problem, it was tone deaf.


Yeah it was grim and surprising coming from him.  I do hope he sorts it out.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Yeah it was grim and surprising coming from him.  I do hope he sorts it out.

I’m feeling pretty despondent about everything to be honest.

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It's definitely interesting how things shift from promising lots more police to it being wrong to dismiss the idea of even more cuts to their budget.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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The point was that those who took offence to her comments (and RLB in reposting them) saw them in the wider context of anti-Israeli sentiment and conspiracy, rather than at face value.

Conversely, many of the same individuals in this thread are refusing to do that with Starmer’s comments on defunding the police, which quite clearly discredit and dismiss what has been a key part of the BLM movement. Is it really an appropriate time, given recent events - to dismiss this as nonsense? A gaping blind spot. Hypocrisy.

Mate you cant have the leader of the opposition do anything but dismiss talk of defunding the police.
He handled the BLM conversation badly, but not in the sense of defunding the police.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Welshred

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It's definitely interesting how things shift from promising lots more police to it being wrong to dismiss the idea of even more cuts to their budget.

He definitely could have reframed it better and gone down the lines of saying defunding the police is nonsense but that's not what BLM mean using that term, then explaining what they do mean.

Offline Bobsackamano

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When Kier Starmer was elected Labour was 20-26% behind in the polls. Now they are between 4-7% behind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Thats a remarkable turnaround and shows what a cracking job he's doing.

His latest comments rejecting the stupid idea of defunding the police in the UK will only aid him in his bid to make Labour electable again.

Offline ljycb

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It's definitely interesting how things shift from promising lots more police to it being wrong to dismiss the idea of even more cuts to their budget.

Disagreed with previous leaders promising lots more police too tbf.