Topic: Round table: Firmino the next piece in the puzzle

[DanA]

I thought a longer winded thread in the form of a round table might work so please no one line posts.

Firmino is the 2nd major signing that you'd expect to walk into the starting lineup. Another hard working and versatile player with experience in a number of different positions for club and country. And it's interesting to note that despite reputation Firmino at 6' and 76kg is around 6cm taller and 6kg heavier than Milner, so he's not as diminutive as many think. He's a player who is quick (but not Sterling quick) and is always moving, pushing the tempo of the game. In the Milner thread there was quite a bit of debate over what Rodgers was looking to do. It seems apparent to me that Rodgers is looking to further the pressing game we employed after Christmas and that was so successful in 2013/14. Both Milner and Firmino bring that and for me it's exactly what I want to see. I still think Rodgers has a lot of options in regards to formation but more and more I am liking the idea of a 4-4-2 diamond.

                           Mignolet
                           (Bogdon)

  Clyne           Skrtel            Sakho         Moreno
(Wisdom)       (Toure)         (Lovren)          (??)

                             Lucas
                             (Can)

                Milner               Henderson
               (Allen)               (Coutinho)

                           Coutinho
                           (Lallana)

                Sturridge          Firmino
                  (Origi)              (Ings)

Obviously there is some debate over who starts and the position they start in but something like this feels the most natural fit. Sturridge on the shoulder keeps the opposition defense in two minds on whether to push up onto Firmino or dropping back,  Firmino primarily dropping in between the lines will create some great interplay with Coutinho, and when out of possession Firmino is at the forefront of our pressing game.  I can see some great combination play that attacking trio of Sturridge, Firmino and Coutinho. The worry I suppose is lack of goals but I think if Firmino can get double figures and Sturridge or the new striker can play at as a 20 goal a season striker then we should be well positioned. There's other ways to setup in this formation too, I think Firmino as the no.10 and Coutinho push into a deeper CM role works, that allows room for another high profile striker...either option looks good to me.

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?
2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)
3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?
4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

[Not A Scouser]

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?

I think Rodgers is looking for various characteristics, and one of them is positional flexibility.  He seems to be able to play anywhere in an attacking position (I haven't seen him) although I think he doesn't score enough goals to be the main centre-forward.  So I see him on the flanks in a 433, or 4231, and one of the 2 in the 3421.
What he clearly brings is an intensity in pressing, and I think this is what Rodgers is really looking for this season.  I think that's why we have bought four Southampton players, because they have proven they can be effective in a pressing team in the Premier League.
I can't see him playing elsewhere in the team, although I have mentioned several nominal positions.  He seems ideal for a pressing, attacking role.  The question is whether this emphasis on pressing will work overall

2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)

I think Rodgers has an idea of what he wants, a nominal 433 that presses high up the pitch, and retains the ball unless there is an immediate opportunity to get at the goal (e.g. whenever Suarez had the ball).  His changes to that idea are reactive, he changes things when it isn't working.  So hopefully we play his preferred pressing 433 all season long, because it is working.  I think he will persevere even if it goes badly at first, because this is what he really wants to do.

3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?

As above on formation.  I think the formation and strategy will be effective against many of the smaller teams, and if the players are fit enough then also effective against the better teams in the second half of the season, as they tire.  A pressing system requires intense, fit players that can work as a unit, understanding what their teammates are reading from a situation.  Tired players who aren't working hard destroy the system.  Players chasing the ball without co-ordination is a waste of time.  I think that there will be major rotation of attacking players, more than pundits and fans would initially like, but it will be necessary for this style.

4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

The strengths of this set-up is defending as far away from our goal as possible, and therefore winning the ball as close to the opposition's goal as possible.  Playing the game in the opposition's half is clearly a superior situation than the alternatives.  I really think that if the team gets on a roll we might get the psychological advantage that you saw two seasons ago when we pressed very intensely for the first twenty minutes (but couldn't keep it up).
The weaknesses are burn-out of the players and the reliance on just three players (excluding the goalkeeper) to defend from the halfway line back to our goal.  The counter to a pressing style is long balls to a target man or the Hodgson staple of the long, diagonal ball behind thefull backs (who presumably be pushed forward).  If the press doesn't work then there will be the problems seen against Crystal Palace, Aston Villa, and Man Utd. where great gaping spaces on the flanks appear.

I think that Milner, Henderson, Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho could make up a formidable pressing unit.  Can they keep the ball well enough?  If they do, can they create chances against a packed defence?  Can our defence handle a barrage of long balls?  It will at least be fun to watch....

[Chig]

Love the 442 Diamond myself. However, if we are to use this formation as our main tactic this coming season, we might as well start selling Markovic and Ibe. Both do not have the vision nor the creativity to play as #10 and maybe Ibe can convert into a shadow striker (that make him Origi and Ing fighting for the bench spot). Therefore, I can see us primarily playing a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 with Coutinho in #10, Firmino as inside forward from the left side of the attack and Lallana as a wide play maker from the right. And if we want we can have Ibe and Markovic come in to be winger or inside forward from both side of the front 3.

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?

I honestly think he would be great as a inside forward playing on the left. With his work rate n defensive ability he will help Moreno out in defense and he likes to cut in field and get involve. He will play almost as a second striker when attack from the left.  But like you said it, he can play anywhere up front and midfield, so won't be surprise to see him play in a few position this coming season.

2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)

Think lots of changes last year were due to the injury of Danny boy and our lack of defense. With Clyne coming in and new strikers plus Danny boy coming back, I do think we might have a more predictable side compare to last season. I will be surprised if we run more than 3 formations this coming season unless we are hampered by injuries again.

3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?

Like I said earlier, I think we will play with 4231 or 433. Firstly, it gives us a lot more balance with 2 wing back and 2 holding midfield (one more advance than the other) kind of like Arsenal last season. Up front we have 4 very different style and interchangeable wide players (Firmino - free role player who like to roam and is creative at the same time will run the channel and look to score goals with strong defensive ability, Lallana - wide playmaker that can set up plays, create chances and press very well for the team, Ibe - Inside forward that have a powerful shot, can beat a player or two and is also hard worker, Markovic - winger lots of pace with good technique and can play more defensively if required.) with Coutinho sitting at #10, like Ronaldinho mentioned in his interview, if a striker cannot score goals playing in front of this, you are never gonna score goal anywhere else.

4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

We are gona be pressing and causing havoc on opposition's half. We will score goals from their mistakes. Like you said in your post, understanding and teamwork is the key in this formation or style of plays. Players need to be selfless and make runs for others.
in term of weakness and threat you pretty much covered it Ll in your post so I am not gonna repeat it.

If our team can work together and get good understanding of each other from game one........ I predict we are going to have a good season ahead of us.

[wordroam]

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?

All over the place. Yes he's an attacking midfielder but Rodgers clearly likes his tactically flexible players.
Where you've put him is 'right' but I'm pretty sure the reality during a game is going to be way more unpredictable.

2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)

Well, there's two ways of looking at this.

He is strengthening the squad so hopefully less need for players out of position and formation churn.

On the other hand its obvious that its going to be VERY tough at the beginning to eke out a few results while players bed in / are discovered not to be ready.
Can Rodgers hold his nerve through an initial run of ropey results ?
Can we hold our nerve through a run of ropey results ?

3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?

I can see how the 442 diamond can spring back into a 433 pressing/defensive. Looking at the team names it does seem an impressive set of hard-working lads.

But It does look a little precarious 'default' formation to start the season - I would expect more of a 433 generally. I can see the better tactical sides exploiting the space on the flanks of a 442 diamond cobbled together with a set of new players learning to play with each-other.
 
4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

Injury and transfers; Sturridge not being available, or even worse, not buying another attacker.

In which case I'd also consider a loose 451 with Firmino as the lone duracell bunny - especially at the beginning of the season.

Just to add that it looks interesting in terms of squad management. Theres quite a bit of competition in midfield now - and poor old Lallana needs a steady run of games.

Also I missed the games where the wheels came off the 3 at the back so am agnostic on it.

'

[kaz1983]

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?

I see him dropping deep as a narrow right or left midfielder (compared to the other side of the pitch) when we loose possession. When we have possession I see him pushing on, cutting inside - linking up with Coutinho.

2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)?

I hope he just settles on whether we are going to play with a back 4 or a back 3. Then work from there.

3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?

I think it will be a back 4 system we end up settling on. So have Firmino starting in one of the wider roles but with the freedom to come inside and link up with Coutinho or push on and make runs beyond the striker, getting on the end of thur balls. From what I've seen and read about him he will be involved in a fair few goals next season, whether that's scoring them or assisting them. It makes sense for him to be given more freedom, to come short for the ball or push on and get on the end of one - or with the ball, providing the assist himself. With a more advanced attacker on the other flank, more of a goal scorer - we will at time look like we are playing 2 forwards..... with 2 attackers in Coutinho and Firmino supplying them, I'm thinking.

4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

With one player dropping deep and one pushing on (from that midfield '4'), we could go from playing 4-1-4-1 to 4-2-2-2 ... so flexibility in attack would be a plus point. Next to Coutinho, we could have Firmino play in behind the forwards or even part of the forward line along with Sturridge. As for weaknesses, right now with Sturridge being a 50/50 injury wise it means playing as Firmino as a forward might not be the best idea.. if it was alongside a proper goal scorer I could see Firmino played as a striker working but along side Ings or Origi, I'm not so sure.... best to wait as see who we sign up front, that said right now play the guy coming from deep - attacking space in behind and linking up with our no. 10     

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

I don't see him doing very well as a winger, so thinking either centrally in second line of attack, or striker, if he can learn that position quickly. Don't want him and Coutinho getting in each other's way while trying to work from the same pockets of space.

[gaijin_lfc]

The Guardian reckon we'll play 4-3-3 with Hendo/Milner behind Cou in midfield, with Ings and Firmino either side of Sturridge. Obviously that wouldn't work with Sturridge being out, but I could see him playing out wide. He seems to run into those areas a lot even if he doesn't stick to the wings.

[Mutton Geoff]

The Guardian reckon we'll play 4-3-3 with Hendo/Milner behind Cou in midfield, with Ings and Firmino either side of Sturridge. Obviously that wouldn't work with Sturridge being out, but I could see him playing out wide. He seems to run into those areas a lot even if he doesn't stick to the wings.

 Coutinho ?  and also where is Can playing? i hope it isnt at WB

[Roger Federer]

I have no idea what we'll do, but with Clyne soon here, it looks like we'll play 4 at the back at least. I suppose Rodgers prefers a three man midfield, with one player deeper than the other two. I hope we consider playing Coutinho as one of those two, as we need his creativity in midfield. Lucas/Can, Milner and Henderson in a 3 is hardworking and full of running, but we lack guile, and the ability to play when space is limited.

So if that happens - Coutinho in midfield I mean - I see Firmino as one of 3 attackers ahead of the midfield. If we buy a class striker and Sturridge is fit, he should be our number 10 in the diamond, otherwise it will likely be more of a 4-3-2-1, with Firmino + Lallana, Markovic or Ibe behind Sturridge or the new striker (Benteke?). Both those formations look quite good, and with Coutinho in midfield we're able to have more goalthreats on the pitch at the same time. If we move Coutinho forward, I don't see it working as well in attack, unless the new striker is almost on Sturridge's level. Firmino might score more than Sterling, but the difference over the last two season isn't as great as some suggest. At least not  looking at their stats, so we need to add goals and play as many attacking players as you can get away with. Coutinho rather than Milner/Henderson is one way to do that, and for me the positive far outweights the negative here. Coutinho might not be as full of running, but is very good at pressing and can win the ball thanks to his aggression and great balance.

[gaijin_lfc]

Coutinho ?  and also where is Can playing? i hope it isnt at WB

Can isn't in the starting XI and I tend to agree with that. He's not one of the best eleven players in the squad.

[Red Genius]

..................Mignolet.........................
Clyne......Skrtel......Sakho....Moreno
....................Lucas...........................
.......Hendo/Milner...Coutinho...........
.................Firminho.........................
.........Sturridge....New Striker..........

This is how I'd like to see us set up at home against the bottom ten teams....quick out the blocks get right in and at them. I suspect we're likely to use a 4-3-3 set up however as it seems That is Brendans default, I don't see that setup offering enough goals with the players we have and where they prefer to play.

[Packalacky]

..................Mignolet.........................
Clyne......Skrtel......Sakho....Moreno
....................Lucas...........................
.......Hendo/Milner...Coutinho...........
.................Firminho.........................
.........Sturridge....New Striker..........

This is how I'd like to see us set up at home against the bottom ten teams....quick out the blocks get right in and at them. I suspect we're likely to use a 4-3-3 set up however as it seems That is Brendans default, I don't see that setup offering enough goals with the players we have and where they prefer to play.

Personally to get the best out of Firminho you need to get people around him, so I think playing next to someone like Sturridge would be good. Something like this would be perfect:


..................Mignolet.........................
Clyne......Skrtel......Sakho......Moreno
....................Lucas...........................
...........Can...............Milner...........
.................Coutinho.........................
........Sturridge......Firminho............

Lucas shielding the back 4, Can and Milner helping him but also driving forward from the back, while Coutinho, Firmino and Sturridge press from the front. If we get a new top striker, then something like this would be great to watch:

..................Mignolet.........................
Clyne......Skrtel......Sakho......Moreno
....................Lucas...........................
......Coutinho............Milner...........
.................Firminho.........................
........Sturridge......New Striker............

[Coolie High]

Personally to get the best out of Firminho you need to get people around him, so I think playing next to someone like Sturridge would be good. Something like this would be perfect:


..................Mignolet.........................
Clyne......Skrtel......Sakho......Moreno
....................Lucas...........................
...........Can...............Milner...........
.................Coutinho.........................
........Sturridge......Firminho............

Lucas shielding the back 4, Can and Milner helping him but also driving forward from the back, while Coutinho, Firmino and Sturridge press from the front. If we get a new top striker, then something like this would be great to watch:

..................Mignolet.........................
Clyne......Skrtel......Sakho......Moreno
....................Lucas...........................
......Coutinho............Milner...........
.................Firminho.........................
........Sturridge......New Striker............

Perfect love both formations.

[Gnurglan]

                           Mignolet
                           (Bogdon)

  Clyne           Skrtel            Sakho         Moreno
(Wisdom)       (Toure)         (Lovren)          (??)

                             Lucas
                             (Can)

                Milner               Henderson
               (Allen)               (Coutinho)

                           Coutinho
                           (Lallana)

                Sturridge          Firmino
                  (Origi)              (Ings)

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?
2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)
3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?
4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

That formation makes sense to me. I haven't watched Firmino enough to say where exactly he should play, but I believe we'll use him like a supplier, rather than a finisher. So he will be part of a front three, either in that diamond, or in a 4-3-3, but he won't be the front man.

We will shift between formations, but I hope we go back to the 4-3-3/4-4-2 with a diamond and make it work like we did in 13/14. I say we will shift, because I believe Rodgers is that type of manager. He's been flexible with his formations and I don't think that will change. I just hope we find something that works and I believe we should go with four at the back.
Success? I believe we have reason to be optimistic. If we go with the 4-4-2 diamond and plan to be more aggressive, we need a couple of strikers who can run a bit. Behind them we'll play Henderson and probably Milner, two players who can definitely run and make it difficult for the opponents. Leaves the top and the bottom of the diamond. I'm not concerned with either. Can or Lucas will manage defensively and the attacking option will too. For this to work, I reckon Milner is more a important signing than Firmino.

Another formation that could be interesting is the 4-2-3-1, with Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana as the '3'. The threats I see are the same as always. We have too many options and it can force Rodgers to make compromises. Play a little bit of this and a little bit of that, to keep everyone involved. I don't want to get the thread off track though, so I'll leave it there. If we go 4-2-3-1, that lead striker is what will determine our success. Get that right and I believe we could have a great attack this coming season.

[ShayGuevara]

My two cents..

I think all our signings this far (include Clyne in this) are further indication of Rodgers of Rodgers seeing work rate and energy as the primary cog in our system. With the old guard ie players like Johnson, Gerrard, Lucas etc he hasn't been able to play his system effectively and it has resulted in a poor defensive record. Firmino a very important cog in the wheel as he's one of the best players of his type off the ball in Europe.

Of course Rodgers still values technical ability and with Firmino he's added to that. Some of the highest through ball stats in Europe and it's likely he'll play around the no10 or no7 roles. I don't think Rodgers sees 11 technically gifted players as essential but 11 hard working players are (with possible exception to a no9).

In Milner, Henderson, Can and Allen we have four central midfielders who's primary attribute are their work rates. CM will be our engine rather than our creative hub a la Barcelona. DM will be the link between defence and attack and won't be surprised if a technically gifted DM/CM is brought in to fill the role.

This will mean players like Coutinho and Firmino will be the link between midfield and attack and most of our creativity and assists should come through both these players. Both are most effective playing through the centre so it will be interesting to see if they are pushed wide in a 4-3-3 or will be revert to the 4-4-2 diamond variation of it as some have already mentioned.

Individually what Firmino will give us is the chance creation of the inevitably departing Sterling but also that link between midfield and attack that Suarez gave us and I can see him being used as a no7 in a 2 up front quite often.

I think now with Henderson, Milner, Coutinho and Firmino all pressing from high positions teams will struggle to play football against us. A press just like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, now though that we have the energy of Moreno and Clyne at full back that's a massive gap filled in last season or indeed the 13/14 side.

The new striker we add will tell us more about what Rodgers is trying to do but from the signings so far I think the one thing that is clear is we will be ruthless off the ball in winning it back and as technically brilliant this lad is, he'll also be key to that ruthless pressure.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

I think that the signing of Firmino returns us, in some way, to the days of Suarez running around like a madman up front. The energy, the creativity, the unpredictability, everything you need in a front man. The front line last season was static to the point of embarrassment at times; this lad will be a different proposition entirely.

It's clearly not fair to compare him to Suarez, but he can have his own impact on the team, the way we play, the pressure we'll be able to exert on the opposition. Most importantly, I think he can have a positive influence on Daniel Sturridge. That pair up front, backed up by Coutinho, well, it could be carnage for opposition defenders to deal with. I for one cannot wait to see it.

[Packalacky]

My two cents..

I think all our signings this far (include Clyne in this) are further indication of Rodgers of Rodgers seeing work rate and energy as the primary cog in our system. With the old guard ie players like Johnson, Gerrard, Lucas etc he hasn't been able to play his system effectively and it has resulted in a poor defensive record. Firmino a very important cog in the wheel as he's one of the best players of his type off the ball in Europe.

Of course Rodgers still values technical ability and with Firmino he's added to that. Some of the highest through ball stats in Europe and it's likely he'll play around the no10 or no7 roles. I don't think Rodgers sees 11 technically gifted players as essential but 11 hard working players are (with possible exception to a no9).

In Milner, Henderson, Can and Allen we have four central midfielders who's primary attribute are their work rates. CM will be our engine rather than our creative hub a la Barcelona. DM will be the link between defence and attack and won't be surprised if a technically gifted DM/CM is brought in to fill the role.

This will mean players like Coutinho and Firmino will be the link between midfield and attack and most of our creativity and assists should come through both these players. Both are most effective playing through the centre so it will be interesting to see if they are pushed wide in a 4-3-3 or will be revert to the 4-4-2 diamond variation of it as some have already mentioned.

Individually what Firmino will give us is the chance creation of the inevitably departing Sterling but also that link between midfield and attack that Suarez gave us and I can see him being used as a no7 in a 2 up front quite often.

I think now with Henderson, Milner, Coutinho and Firmino all pressing from high positions teams will struggle to play football against us. A press just like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, now though that we have the energy of Moreno and Clyne at full back that's a massive gap filled in last season or indeed the 13/14 side.

The new striker we add will tell us more about what Rodgers is trying to do but from the signings so far I think the one thing that is clear is we will be ruthless off the ball in winning it back and as technically brilliant this lad is, he'll also be key to that ruthless pressure.

Can't see this being the case as Benteke is our number 1 target this summer for the striker position, and he stands against everything you said.

[ShayGuevara]

Can't see this being the case as Benteke is our number 1 target this summer for the striker position, and he stands against everything you said.

There's a Benteke thread in the transfer forum that's why I chose not to mention him.

A Striker, lone striker especially will rarely win the ball back by pressing. His job is to use his intelligence to lead the press by pushing a team into a position where the opponent has to make a predictable pass or risk losing the ball.

It's not as vital as the midfield or full back positions. He doesn't have to be a Jordan Henderson or Luis Suarez. We've seen it already with Sturridge.

[Packalacky]

There's a Benteke thread in the transfer forum that's why I chose not to mention him.

A Striker, lone striker especially will rarely win the ball back by pressing. His job is to use his intelligence to lead the press by pushing a team into a position where the opponent has to make a predictable pass or risk losing the ball.

It's not as vital as the midfield or full back positions. He doesn't have to be a Jordan Henderson or Luis Suarez. We've seen it already with Sturridge.

Just saying that as he's our number 1 target, it goes against the "pressing from the front" mentality. So I really don't think that's the way BR will set us up this coming season.

[Upinsmoke]

I see firmino playing alongside coutinho, basically in the Xmas tree formation, this gives him the flexibility to break ahead of the lone forward and also to pull out wide. With the energy and power of can, Milner and Henderson behind him I think it will give him the confidence to play with freedom, he also likes to press and harry the opposition which he'll be able to do effectively from that position.

[keyo]

this generally makes sense, and fits with what I believe is rodgers' likely thinking around team ethic and strikers. in the past he has tended to pay a main striker, supported by runners and movement....so his number 9 does not have to be all movement and pressing, acting more as a pivot for those players to play through and around.  someone who can get on to through balls too, which does require smart movement, but not constant.  it also fits with sturridge being that man or(more likely, one of the runners/support players)

interesting to see who lines up in midfield...I think initially it will be milner, Henderson and lucas (assuming lucas is going nowhere and is fully fit). ahead of them we will see a selection from firmino, coutinho, ibe, lallana, a striker (both coutinho and firmino will have played for longer than the others at copa, and assuming sturridge is not fit for the start of the season and we get a new striker and remove balotelli, lambert and borini as options).

I see us struggling to score initially, unless we click straight away (new players and formation), but that was always going to be the case

[keyo]

Just saying that as he's our number 1 target, it goes against the "pressing from the front" mentality. So I really don't think that's the way BR will set us up this coming season.

it is generally how he has set his sides up in the past before he came here.  one central striker to occupy space and the defenders to stop the ball being played out with the runners pushed up against the full backs.

[ShayGuevara]

this generally makes sense, and fits with what I believe is rodgers' likely thinking around team ethic and strikers. in the past he has tended to pay a main striker, supported by runners and movement....so his number 9 does not have to be all movement and pressing, acting more as a pivot for those players to play through and around.  someone who can get on to through balls too, which does require smart movement, but not constant.  it also fits with sturridge being that man or(more likely, one of the runners/support players)

interesting to see who lines up in midfield...I think initially it will be milner, Henderson and lucas (assuming lucas is going nowhere and is fully fit). ahead of them we will see a selection from firmino, coutinho, ibe, lallana, a striker (both coutinho and firmino will have played for longer than the others at copa, and assuming sturridge is not fit for the start of the season and we get a new striker and remove balotelli, lambert and borini as options).

I see us struggling to score initially, unless we click straight away (new players and formation), but that was always going to be the case

Personally I think it will be Can ahead of Lucas this season. Not as good at reading the game or defenisvely but has the legs and technical ability to play that DM role.

Still not ruling out a DM/Controler to be signed before the end of the window, likely after any Sterling deal.

[DanA]

I think it's really hard to pin down what Rodgers preferred setup is because he's changed it so much at Liverpool and before that Swansea was the longest he ever managed a club. That was only two seasons, one of which was the season they came up. We've all heard the press conferences about 4-3-3, and know he has a history with 4-4-2 diamond dating back to Chelsea. But I think he's always taken a pragmatic approach and with that it means preferences tend to take a back seat.

This summer I think Rodgers has taken a pragmatic approach to recruiting players and is looking to improve our defense, it might sound like a stupid theory being that we've signed three attacking player (Milner, Firmino & Ings) but we all know each of them bring a marked improvement in terms of defensive work rate over their predecessors. Clyne I think falls into a similar category too.

I could be reaching here but I think Rodgers has gone a long way to fixing most of our defensive problems. IMO we lacked co-ordination pressing, our midfield wasn't tracking opponents runs and too often are fullbacks were isolated and getting beaten. I actually think we did much better defensively when Lucas was in the team as opposed to Gerrard. I think a stronger DM, Clyne plugging up RB, better support for Moreno along with improved pressing from the front, we should improve our defensive record as much as our attacking one.

[Roger Federer]

I sincerely hope that you are right DanA, but I worry a great deal about what will happen in the gaps between the goalkeeper and centre halves, the centre halves and the attacking fullbacks, and between the fullbacks and the 'controller,' or withdrawn midfielder - be that Can, Lucas or Allen.

I think the main concern is Mignolet. If our intention is to press high up the pitch - and it seems to be with the additions of Milner and Firmino - it means there will be loads of space behind the defence. It wont work without a sweeper keeper, and after a striker, it's our most pressing need. But there are no links to anyone as far as I'm aware. And it is hardly mentioned on here, when only 6-7 months ago, almost everyone thought we needed a new goalkeeper. What has happened since? Granted, Mignolet's form picked up massively after we switched to a back 3, but that reduced the gap in behind, and relieved him of much of the work with the ball that we ask him to do in a back 4. But now we are arguably going back to a four man defence again, and still have Mignolet in goal. It doesn't make sense to me.

And what about the central defence? Sakho is good, but hasn't yet established himself fully, mostly because of injuries, and he hasn't had a great partnership with Skrtel either. Skrtel isn't that great with the ball at feet, and has a tendency to drop too early. I think he does so to an extent because he's unsure of what Mignolet will do (who usually takes too long to make a decision), and all our defenders would be helped massively by a proactive keeper. But some of the problems will likely still exist, and with both fullbacks going on the attack this year, I expect plenty of 1 on 1 defending. Not Skrtel's best quality, and I dread to think what it will look like if Sakho is injured again this season. Lovren and Toure doesn't fill you with much confidence, to say the least.

Finally, there is the case of the midfield and how we'll line up. I think Lucas is an excellent player, but the lack of pace, and the gaps he'll have to cover is yet another worry. With Can, who is quicker, but lacks a bit of acceleration, and doesn't read the game as well as Lucas, the same is true. Sure, they'll be helped if we become a more aggressive side, but we wont win the ball every time we press. If we leave both our fullbacks and the other central midfielders high up the pitch, there will be much space to cover when our pressing fails. I think we should take such risks though, as it is how I want us to play, and Lucas or Can would do just fine if I were confident that we had the right central defence and goalkeeper. But as I'm not, the burden on whoever plays in the withdrawn midfield role is perhaps too big.

All that said, I still believe it will be better than last year, as we have added much needed energy and work rate. But the striker we sign should add to this as well (will Benteke? I'm not sure at all), and why I desperately wanted Tevez, despite knowing how unrealistic that was. A forward like that would obviously be great for our attack, but also help with the defending from the front aspect of our play. Is anyone similar available? I'd worry a lot less if we buy such a striker, and get a new goalkeeper as well.

[No Appreciation of Liverpool Opposition]

I like to think of the team as a squad of 16: 1.5 players for every outfield position and a goalie. The rest of the team are genuine squad players, but those first 16 guys genuinely play as much as each other between injuries and form and tactical considerations.

With that in mind we have:
Goalie: Migs

left/right Backs:
Moreno
Clyne
Enrique

Centre Backs:
Sakho
Skrtel
Lovren

Midfielders(3 spots):
Henderson
Lucas
Milner
Can
Allen

AMs:
Firminho
Coutinho
Lallana

Striker(1 postion)
Sturridge
Ings


That is actually a pretty solid first team. Trouble is when you line it up against a Man U with Depay, Ramos, Rooney, RVP, Shaw, Herrera and Di Maria, it doesn't look like a fair fight.

[DanA]

I sincerely hope that you are right DanA, but I worry a great deal about what will happen in the gaps between the goalkeeper and centre halves, the centre halves and the attacking fullbacks, and between the fullbacks and the 'controller,' or withdrawn midfielder - be that Can, Lucas or Allen.

I think the main concern is Mignolet. If our intention is to press high up the pitch - and it seems to be with the additions of Milner and Firmino - it means there will be loads of space behind the defence. It wont work without a sweeper keeper, and after a striker, it's our most pressing need. But there are no links to anyone as far as I'm aware. And it is hardly mentioned on here, when only 6-7 months ago, almost everyone thought we needed a new goalkeeper. What has happened since? Granted, Mignolet's form picked up massively after we switched to a back 3, but that reduced the gap in behind, and relieved him of much of the work with the ball that we ask him to do in a back 4. But now we are arguably going back to a four man defence again, and still have Mignolet in goal. It doesn't make sense to me.

And what about the central defence? Sakho is good, but hasn't yet established himself fully, mostly because of injuries, and he hasn't had a great partnership with Skrtel either. Skrtel isn't that great with the ball at feet, and has a tendency to drop too early. I think he does so to an extent because he's unsure of what Mignolet will do (who usually takes too long to make a decision), and all our defenders would be helped massively by a proactive keeper. But some of the problems will likely still exist, and with both fullbacks going on the attack this year, I expect plenty of 1 on 1 defending. Not Skrtel's best quality, and I dread to think what it will look like if Sakho is injured again this season. Lovren and Toure doesn't fill you with much confidence, to say the least.

Finally, there is the case of the midfield and how we'll line up. I think Lucas is an excellent player, but the lack of pace, and the gaps he'll have to cover is yet another worry. With Can, who is quicker, but lacks a bit of acceleration, and doesn't read the game as well as Lucas, the same is true. Sure, they'll be helped if we become a more aggressive side, but we wont win the ball every time we press. If we leave both our fullbacks and the other central midfielders high up the pitch, there will be much space to cover when our pressing fails. I think we should take such risks though, as it is how I want us to play, and Lucas or Can would do just fine if I were confident that we had the right central defence and goalkeeper. But as I'm not, the burden on whoever plays in the withdrawn midfield role is perhaps too big.

All that said, I still believe it will be better than last year, as we have added much needed energy and work rate. But the striker we sign should add to this as well (will Benteke? I'm not sure at all), and why I desperately wanted Tevez, despite knowing how unrealistic that was. A forward like that would obviously be great for our attack, but also help with the defending from the front aspect of our play. Is anyone similar available? I'd worry a lot less if we buy such a striker, and get a new goalkeeper as well.

I don't disagree with any of this but you've got to draw the line somewhere and with four new players in the starting lineup I loathe to look at replacing others. IMO Rodgers is already going to spend too much time getting players to adapt, any more and it could really mean a bad start so I'd be inclined to put Lucas, Skrtel and Mignolet into the "problems that need to bet addressed next season" basket.

[Red-Soldier]

Apparently we are set to announce Sean O'driscoll as our new AM. 

Maybe he's the nest piece of the puzzle 

[Livo.85]

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?
2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)
3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?
4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

1. Support striker role, primarily but also played as an inside forward. Can't go wrong.
2. Hoping he has decided to go with a league team & a cup team. The priority has to be the league.
3/4. 4-2-3-1. Successful providing the Milner, Henderson & the Sakho, Skrtel partnership works. The other pieces should fit. I'm less worried about Benteke than others. Rodgers was successful using 4231 with Swansea when he brought in a goal scoring attacking midfielder in Sigurdsson to link up with Danny Graham who became less isolated. Rodgers didn't use a DM but 2 central midfielders that were technical, tactical, mobile & hard working players. This model helped Swansea keep possession, keep clean sheets & score goals.
Suarez & Gerrard didn't fit into that model & we have finally addressed players in the market to go back to that model, well almost...
Rodgers hasn't gone with a ball playing goal keeper & this is the major weakness in the squad. I just don't understand the Bogdan signing, it deserves to be criticized. A case of the business model not in harmony with the footballing model?

League XI
                        Benteke

      Coutinho      Firmino      Lallana

                Milner       Henderson

Moreno     Sakho          Skrtel       Clyne
                     
                          Mignolet

Strengths: Fullbacks provide width allowing domination of possession centrally.
The front 3 can interchange starting positions based on opponent.
The midfield 5 can all press for extended periods of time. All have a history of goals & assists.
With Clyne & Milner more mobile than Johnson, Lucas & Gerrard, getting hurt in defensive transitions should be less apparent.

Weaknesses: The goalkeeper & back four. Mignolet & Skrtel aren't comfortable with high starting positions. Moreno needs to improve & Clyne needs to adapt.

Cup XI
                             Origi

   Markovic             Ings                Ibe

                   Allen            Can

Augustinsson  Lovren    Toure     Wisdom

                             Bogdan

Strengths: Pace & lots of it. Allows us to blow weaker opposition in the cups away with 2 strikers in the box that are also willing to press & be hard working allowing for a central midfield 2 of Can & Allen that will be able to cope against weaker opposition due to their superior quality.
Shape is closer to 4-4-1-1.

Weaknesses: Lack of experience & inconsistent players. The keeper & defence aren't capable of challenging the 1st team players for their position & it's a glaring weakness in the squad.

Injured not forgotten: Sturridge & Flanagan. With a 3rd keeper to make up a squad number of 25 I can't see more new signings after the already mentioned above included. I'm assuming Lucas will be sold.

[ScottScott]

1. Where do you see Firmino primarily playing, is this the right thing to do?

I think this varies depending on how we set up. I think we are primarily buying for the 433 formation that Rodgers has favoured in general and I think Firmino fits into this on either side next to a striker (Sturrdge or Benteke) with Coutinho on the opposite flank. I think the creativity from them both will provide a lot of chances for any striker we have there. He can also play as a No.10 in a 442 diamond if we go that way behind 2 strikers or even as part of the 2 with Coutinho behind them. What we do have is flexibility which is always a good thing

2. Will Rodgers vary things as much as this season (or create a more predictable side)?

Again I think we have bought for the 433. We will change things up as Rodgers has shown in the last 2 seasons that he has that nouse to change things up and create tactics that get the best out of his squad. We may start with the 433 but after a few games he may see something better suited. We will probably change our tactics depending on who we play too. Play with a more physical side against a Stoke or Chelsea with Benteke leading the line but retaining the creativity of Firmino and Phil backed up by the power and pressing of Can, Hendo and Milner

3. What type of formation will we use, how successful do you see it being?

This all depends on how well the players we have brought in settle. If the players brought in to start every week (Milner, Clyne, Benteke and Firmino) slot straight in and we get a good start then we will end up having a good season. If we start slowly like last season with players taking time to come to grips with things then we will similarly struggle

4. What are the strengths, weaknesses and potential threats to your proposed Firmino setup?

As has been mentioned we may have a lack of pace. Not Lambert slow but not Sturridge/Sterling/Ibe quick. We do have pace though as over the 1st 10-20 yards Firmino and Coutinho (and Benteke) are very quick and will get past a man to create the space to create

[alfonso]

I have lost count of the times I have heard 'piece' and 'puzzle' when a new player has arrived during the last 20+ years. In fact I don't even bother talking about them anymore as it's usually a let down. Most of them didn't fit the puzzle not always because of them, but sometimes because of the people trying to put the puzzle together.

[Roger Federer]

I don't disagree with any of this but you've got to draw the line somewhere and with four new players in the starting lineup I loathe to look at replacing others.

Fair point, and I agree with that. But after a striker, I thought goalkeeper would be our next priority. If we do intend to play four at the back, and a high pressing game, that is probably the part of the squad that is least suited to that style. Origi and Ings may have questions about their quailty and/or lack of experience, but they seem to fit with that approch at the very least. Yet we know that Mignolet doesn't, and still we're not looking for a new keeper? I hope I'm wrong about that, it's still early after all. I think it would lift the squad greatly if we found the right one.

I'm not 100% sure Milner is a starter at all times either. Coutinho could move to midfield, to make room for all our attacking midfielders and the new striker. Then Clyne, Firmino, 'Striker' and 'Goalkeeper' still makes is 4 new players, rather than 5.

[Yiannis]

Haven't seen him lots of times but I firmly believe is a fine acquisition. Constant movement, opponent harassing, good technique and dribbling, not a bad finisher that will only get better. The only negative part of his game that stood out to me is that maybe he falls in love too much with his one touch passing which in turns to reckless short passing aka giving the ball away. Nothing that cannot be rectified of course.

[DanA]

Haven't seen him lots of times but I firmly believe is a fine acquisition. Constant movement, opponent harassing, good technique and dribbling, not a bad finisher that will only get better. The only negative part of his game that stood out to me is that maybe he falls in love too much with his one touch passing which in turns to reckless short passing aka giving the ball away. Nothing that cannot be rectified of course.

Totally get what you see in the passing, I wouldn't want to change it though as it pushes the tempo. I think we take the good with the bad, wouldn't want to lose that quick interplay.

[kaz1983]

Sounds like the shit Luis Garcia was given about giving the ball away. It's that moment of magic that makes defenders think twice, gets them caught in two minds. The ball will be given away 4 times out 5 though.

[Zeb]

Nothing to contribute. Didn't see much of the lad at all last season. But have really enjoyed the considered replies and responses to extending the round table a little bit. Thanks Dan, and those who've posted..

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

Thought his pressing was brilliant against United.

He seems to be on a different wave length compared to the majority of the rest of the team. 

You can see the talent in this guy.

[ThePoolMan]

Firmino apparently had the most successful tackles in the team from the United game. However attacking wise there was not enough from him.

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

Firmino apparently had the most successful tackles in the team from the United game. However attacking wise there was not enough from him.

Didn't get the ball to him enough IMO. 

His movement is really good.  As I say I don't think the teammates see a lot of his runs.

His pressing is superb though.

[killer-heels]

Bit worried about him. Hopefully we see more flashes of talent in the upcoming home games.