Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[BobOnATank]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed

Some of the figures that many would be happy to have the troubles return as long as they get a hard brexit are disgusting 

[killer-heels]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed

Some of the figures that many would be happy to have the troubles return as long as they get a hard brexit are disgusting 

I would happily see the break up of the UK if England could stay in the EU.

[ShakaHislop]

Anyone seen any Labour frontbencher mention the possibility of a Peoples Vote this week?

I've seen Thornberry twice talk about negotiating a customs union and a fantasy single market relationship, and Corbyn say the Tories should either step aside or go back to renegotiate if whatever deal May brings back to Parliament is rejected.

[BoRed]

Anyone seen any Labour frontbencher mention the possibility of a Peoples Vote this week?

McDonnell, for one.

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1052554822182944768

[Zeb]

Anyone seen any Labour frontbencher mention the possibility of a Peoples Vote this week?

I've seen Thornberry twice talk about negotiating a customs union and a fantasy single market relationship, and Corbyn say the Tories should either step aside or go back to renegotiate if whatever deal May brings back to Parliament is rejected.

I've only seen Starmer on Question Time talking about it. He also mentioned the need to be in the customs union and *mumble* single market too. Labour's 'structured approach' and all that.

edit: edited for clarity. Beer works.

[BobOnATank]

I would happily see the break up of the UK if England could stay in the EU.

Even if it led to 30 years of troubles in England and thousands dead because of it...?

[oldfordie]

Anyone seen any Labour frontbencher mention the possibility of a Peoples Vote this week?

I've seen Thornberry twice talk about negotiating a customs union and a fantasy single market relationship, and Corbyn say the Tories should either step aside or go back to renegotiate if whatever deal May brings back to Parliament is rejected.

Nope, I wouldn't mind but the Tories are trying to make Labour believe they are fallening into a trap if they did call for a Peoples vote. a call for a people vote would have to be justified, refusing to accept Austerity also had to be justified. well brexit is Austerty+++ if you believe in fighting Austerity then you have to fight Brexit.
This is Brexit.
The situation now is all the evidence points to economic and social disaster.
F... the car industry,
F... our services industry.
F.... Agriculture.
F... The Union.
I never saw any of this on the side of the bus, Brexit 2016 was paradise, Brexit 2019 is anarchy and poverty. nobody voted for it and it shouldn't be forced upon the country by nutters out to screw us at any cost.

[killer-heels]

Even if it led to 30 years of troubles in England and thousands dead because of it...?

Why would England, Scotland and Wales go down that line?

[rob1966]

To be fair here, IDS is so monumentally stupid, its hard to even guess what he does or doesn't actually "know", a trait he shares with several hardcore leavers.

Notice he mentions Aston Martin and JCB as example of British firms who won't be substantially affected by Brexit. Aston sold and amazing 5117 cars last year (Sunderland builds over 500,000 a year) and while JCB is doing well, it employs 15,000 worldwide and only 7600 in the UK. To put it another way, in the UK they employ 1/7th of the total people employed due to Nissan, 7000 at the plant and 40,000 in the supply chain.

The man is an utter moron.

[cowtownred]

I would happily see the break up of the UK if England could stay in the EU.

I would be happy to see the break up of the Uk. And England sinking would be funny too.

[cowtownred]

Even if it led to 30 years of troubles in England and thousands dead because of it...?

Naw, break up the UK, United Ireland...we'll be just fine in the EU.

[andy07]

Breaking up the UK is a racing certainty if brexit goes ahead.  What puzzles me is how leave ever won the vote,  those I know are 80:20 remain and we are talking many hundreds of people so clearly a representative sample.

[BobOnATank]

Why would England, Scotland and Wales go down that line?

Well aye of course people voted to be poorer and unemployed so no reason they won't go to the next step. Miners, poll tax, toxeth - times that it nearly divided society in England - its not impossible. A few people are predicting trouble if "brexit" isn't delivered - whateva the feck that is.

Two other things, you'd think Scotland would be long gone by then (but they'd need to grow a pair) and the fact that while violence in England may be a point to debate, in NI its not. Hard brexit and its back and people just like the ones you love the most are being killed.

Naw, break up the UK, United Ireland...we'll be just fine in the EU.

I'd be grand with that 

[thejbs]

I would happily see the break up of the UK if England could stay in the EU.

Yeah it’s a shame that England are being dragged out of the eu by Scotland and Northern Ireland. The bastards.

[BobOnATank]

Notice he mentions Aston Martin and JCB as example of British firms who won't be substantially affected by Brexit. Aston sold and amazing 5117 cars last year (Sunderland builds over 500,000 a year) and while JCB is doing well, it employs 15,000 worldwide and only 7600 in the UK. To put it another way, in the UK they employ 1/7th of the total people employed due to Nissan, 7000 at the plant and 40,000 in the supply chain.

The man is an utter moron.

Indeed, the car industry, as I remember, employs directly and indirectly 2million people. Given the financial services revenues it does seem like small beans but the negatives are 2 million, 2 FUCKIN MILLION, people losing their jobs! Always knew that people would celebrate the b/wankers losing their jobs but the economy and very importantly pensions are all based on it. 10s of banking city jobs can mean 10,000 in car manufacture in losses to the state. As fordie says is it really at any cost?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Bankers aren't losing their jobs,all that's happening is both the bankers and jobs are relocating to the mainland.

[oldfordie]

Bankers aren't losing their jobs,all that's happening is both the bankers and jobs are relocating to the mainland.

In other words UK companies will relocate to the EU after Brexit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bGE8248N7Y

[drmick]

Breaking up the UK is a racing certainty if brexit goes ahead.  What puzzles me is how leave ever won the vote,  those I know are 80:20 remain and we are talking many hundreds of people so clearly a representative sample.

You must keep good company, with intelligent folk.

I know plenty who voted Leave, but they are certainly not the cleverest folk.

[Zeb]

May's problem. (by R. Daniel Kelemen)



Also Labour's problem, whether in or out of government, until and unless they remove the top promise completely.

[Riquende]

May's problem. (by R. Daniel Kelemen)

Ah, but what the author hasn't taken into consideration there is that she wants a deal, and she's working hard to get a deal that works for our country and the people.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Another people’s march today, and Jezza swerves it to meet the president of Chile in Switzerland to virtue signal about Pinochet.

Shouldn’t shock anyone that, but a nice dereliction of his duties there.

[Elmo!]

Breaking up the UK is a racing certainty if brexit goes ahead.  What puzzles me is how leave ever won the vote,  those I know are 80:20 remain and we are talking many hundreds of people so clearly a representative sample.

That is not a representative sample at all, it is self selecting.

[Sarge]

Even if it led to 30 years of troubles in England and thousands dead because of it...?

What the hell are you on about?

[oldfordie]

My constituents are always saying "I don't want to be a Vassal state" they say it just before they ask for a foodbank voucher usually.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1053035373302095883

[Sarge]

The UK govt confirmed to today it will not continue to apply the Barnett Formula beyond this parliament.

For those of you who don't know what that means, this is the mechanism whereby central funds are allocated for national and regional spends, (the source of the infamous NI subsidy).

The Tories are now extended for full strike.What happens for example is NI farmers apply for EU grants, say, and the EU decides they are worth X under CAP. But they remit that grant to WM and WM then either passes the whole lot on to NI, or as it has naughtily done from time to time, Barnetises it and tops up English farmers, who on paper would not actually be eligible for the same amount of dosh, as they are better off.

Molto fury and gnashing of teeth from NI, but that's the price of the Union.

This is one reason why the Scots were driving hard to get full fiscal control over any payments destined for Scotland.

[Elmo!]

The UK govt confirmed to today it will not continue to apply the Barnett Formula beyond this parliament.

For those of you who don't know what that means, this is the mechanism whereby central funds are allocated for national and regional spends, (the source of the infamous NI subsidy).

The Tories are now extended for full strike.What happens for example is NI farmers apply for EU grants, say, and the EU decides they are worth X under CAP. But they remit that grant to WM and WM then either passes the whole lot on to NI, or as it has naughtily done from time to time, Barnetises it and tops up English farmers, who on paper would not actually be eligible for the same amount of dosh, as they are better off.

Molto fury and gnashing of teeth from NI, but that's the price of the Union.

This is one reason why the Scots were driving hard to get full fiscal control over any payments destined for Scotland.

From what I can see, this is just for the replacement for CAP payments, not scrapping it altogether, that would be huge news...

They have done the same for Scotland as well in terms of stealing EU subsidy oney meant for Scotland - https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16275788.michael-gove-denies-stealing-from-scottish-farmers-amid-eu-subsidy-concerns/

[Sarge]

From what I can see, this is just for the replacement for CAP payments, not scrapping it altogether, that would be huge news...

They have done the same for Scotland as well in terms of stealing EU subsidy oney meant for Scotland - https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16275788.michael-gove-denies-stealing-from-scottish-farmers-amid-eu-subsidy-concerns/

Well it was confirmed no, if so its an admission they won't be able to afford to go on topping up the poorer regions. It means less funding for NI, because unless the Tories come up with a new formula which gives NI as much or more, which is highly unlikely, they are pulling their horns back in.

Essentially, Barnett, which is based on adjustments to population size, tries to ensure that levels of public spending in Wales, NI and Scotland are the same or roughly the same as those in England, because the tax take from all the regions goes to WM, they are not self-financing. It's a share out. If spending in each region was equivalent to the tax take from individual regions then England would always have more in the kitty, as the population is so much larger.

More rough waters ahead for May.

[Sarge]

My bet is and I hope I am right, May has told the DUP she will jack it in and call a GE if they don't STFU.

[fudge]

Breaking up the UK is a racing certainty if brexit goes ahead.  What puzzles me is how leave ever won the vote,  those I know are 80:20 remain and we are talking many hundreds of people so clearly a representative sample.

It shows just how many fucking idiots there are out there

[Elmo!]

Well it was confirmed no, if so its an admission they won't be able to afford to go on topping up the poorer regions. It means less funding for NI, because unless the Tories come up with a new formula which gives NI as much or more, which is highly unlikely, they are pulling their horns back in.

Essentially, Barnett, which is based on adjustments to population size, tries to ensure that levels of public spending in Wales, NI and Scotland are the same or roughly the same as those in England, because the tax take from all the regions goes to WM, they are not self-financing. It's a share out. If spending in each region was equivalent to the tax take from individual regions then England would always have more in the kitty, as the population is so much larger.

More rough waters ahead for May.

As a Scot who obsesses about the independence issue, I'm well aware of what Barnett is  .

This is just specifically about agricultural payments. Barnett as a whole is about far more than that and determines the size of the block grant given to the devolved parliaments/assemblies. I can't see anythign in the news about any of that changing.

[Sarge]

As a Scot who obsesses about the independence issue, I'm well aware of what Barnett is  .

This is just specifically about agricultural payments. Barnett as a whole is about far more than that and determines the size of the block grant given to the devolved parliaments/assemblies. I can't see anythign in the news about any of that changing.

I'll have a look and see if I can find it.

[Sarge]

The most baffling thing about the referendum and I'm shocked that so many unionist farmers couldn't see beyond their innate xenophobia, and realise that apart from the fact that 87% of farm income here (Rep. of Ireland) derives from EU grants, a third of the north's milk production is exported to creameries in the Republic for further processing, and that Brexit poses a real threat to that market. In the longer term it should be possible for that milk to be processed locally but farmers working on fine margins may not survive in business until that happens.

[TepidT2O]

Massive anotbeexit March...

The leader of the opposition?

Abroad, talking about general Pinochet..

Get them all out.

[rob1966]

https://twitter.com/brexitdealvote

More
Replying to @SadiqKhan @peoplesvote_uk
Poll: some people claim that a vote on the deal is undemocratic. Do we still have to proceed with Brexit even if a majority of Britons want neither the deal negotiated nor no deal, even if this would effectively mean that Brexit is no longer the will of the people? Please RT.

[stoa]

The most baffling thing about the referendum and I'm shocked that so many unionist farmers couldn't see beyond their innate xenophobia, and realise that apart from the fact that 87% of farm income here (Rep. of Ireland) derives from EU grants, a third of the north's milk production is exported to creameries in the Republic for further processing, and that Brexit poses a real threat to that market. In the longer term it should be possible for that milk to be processed locally but farmers working on fine margins may not survive in business until that happens.

It's not just farmers though. It's everyone. I don't understand how people can see Brexit as anything but an economic disaster. A lot of people seem to think it will be nothing more but a small hiccup and things will go back to normal. They won't. Tariffs and higher prices for your exports will cost jobs (or put smaller companies out of business). The same goes for the additional paper work that has to be done. Brexit will also cost jobs because bigger companies might feel it's better to move at least some of their production to the EU. Brexit will not completely blow up the British economy at the moment it happens, but it will do so over time. And it will be very hard to get it back on track in a reasonable amount of time. Yet, Brexiteers seem to think everything will be fine after a couple of months...

[The Gulleysucker]

Massive anotbeexit March...

The leader of the opposition?

Abroad, talking about general Pinochet..

Get them all out.

There's priorities, and there's priorities...

Meanwhile, the boy Owen has his too.

Hidden amongst his no doubt earnest and vital for the nations future well being trans debate burblings that he seems largely preoccupied with today is this...

Hello! You seem nice but I don't actually support calls for a second referendum, have fun though!


There again, it comes as little surprise to me, after all..

[killer-heels]

There's priorities, and there's priorities...

Meanwhile, the boy Owen has his too.

Hidden amongst his no doubt earnest and vital for the nations future well being trans debate burblings that he seems largely preoccupied with today is this...

Hello! You seem nice but I don't actually support calls for a second referendum, have fun though!


There again, it comes as little surprise to me, after all..

It probably irks him that a situation he doesnt give a shit about can gather such a march.

[The Gulleysucker]

It probably irks him that a situation he doesnt give a shit about can gather such a march.

Quite likely, he does have a bit of an ego...

No doubt he'll now beaver away at some article for this weeks Grauniad where he'll do his usual Brexit/Lexit sentiment deflection and say that this march is misplaced or something and that any anti Brexit ire should only be directed at the Tories.

[vagabond]

Incredibly disappointed with Corbyn today, he had to be at this rally. I pretty much support his whole socialist platform but his apathy towards Europe is unforgivable really. Good luck trying to get everyone free healthcare and tuition and basic income when the economy is shrinking 10% a year.

[The Gulleysucker]

Incredibly disappointed with Corbyn today, he had to be at this rally. I pretty much support his whole socialist platform but his apathy towards Europe is unforgivable really. Good luck trying to get everyone free healthcare and tuition and basic income when the economy is shrinking 10% a year.

I doubt he cares. Those of us who have observed his political career know that nothing he has ever said about Europe over the last 30 years has given the slightest indication that he has the any enthusiasm for it, only antipathy.

Are any Labour MP's (or any other party) at the rally? That may tell us all we need to know about how serious they are, if at all..