Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1807701 times)

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16920 on: October 22, 2021, 02:23:09 pm »
Try reading the post I responded to before diving in and you'll see they said we were worse in midfield and defence scond half even against ten men.


Ah gotcha….still think your post about chances conceded isn’t a great argument given the game state, unless you think the midfield was good vs 10 men

Offline RedG13

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16921 on: October 22, 2021, 11:38:44 pm »
But it is a tactical switch, and that's all it is and nothing personal for Naby. As for Fabinho not being ready, Keita had also played too many games in quick succession prior to the match, so match fitness isn't really an argument here. What Keita could offer uniquely wasn't possible with them under pressure - their ability to retain possession so dominantly in that first 15-20 minutes was partly due to Keita's comfortable ball retention skills. But once that influence was negated when Liverpool were under pressure, so they lost that influence from Keita, cancelling him out effectively.

Yeah, he's not the finest player defensively and he was caught out but with Hendo and Milner both there, they would be expected to do a lot of the dirty work in a sense being so adept at that. So it made sense that he was the one to come off - he's not the player that's going to get stuck in like the others.

We're lucky to have players who can offer varying styles at different times during the match, and goal aside, Keita was performing very well in our two goal phase at the start. It's simply a matter of changing players to match the changing scenarios and Keita offers us more whatever the hysteria about him coming off. It's a non-event.
He had just played a part in 3 games the week before then a full 90 just over 48 hours before. Not playing in the second half was much more about helping him fit then fully tactical. Which is what Klopp said after the game.
Players have a hard time getting to peak performance with a high risk for injury when on under 72 hours rest. It is ideal for rest and recovery to be 72 hours plus. Klopp was trying to keep him healthy. It also changed the midfield tactically.
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Offline Caston

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16922 on: October 31, 2021, 08:03:05 am »
Didn’t manage to see the game but have read midfield was an issue?

What went wrong?

Offline tubby

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16923 on: October 31, 2021, 08:06:54 am »
We just cannot control a game when we're ahead, we always give up chances.  It's like we can only play one way and when you end up with a midfield who don't have tactical and positional nous, that one way of playing leaves us wide open.

Should've adjusted tactics.
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Offline Raaphael

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16924 on: October 31, 2021, 08:09:54 am »
What about Matip as a defensive midfielder when Fabinho is out?

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16925 on: October 31, 2021, 08:10:17 am »
We just cannot control a game when we're ahead, we always give up chances.  It's like we can only play one way and when you end up with a midfield who don't have tactical and positional nous, that one way of playing leaves us wide open.

Should've adjusted tactics.

We did, we switched things around to counteract what Brighton were doing but it didnt work. Our issues generally were with what we did or in this case did not do with the ball.

We got outplayed and we couldnt find a formula to stop it. The Brighton manager really must get on Klopp’s and the coaching teams nerves.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16926 on: October 31, 2021, 08:10:30 am »
When is Fab going to be back ?

Might have to play four attackers or 3-5-2 at this rate.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 08:16:25 am by Nick110581 »
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Offline FowlerLegend

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16927 on: October 31, 2021, 09:09:03 am »
We did, we switched things around to counteract what Brighton were doing but it didnt work. Our issues generally were with what we did or in this case did not do with the ball.

We got outplayed and we couldnt find a formula to stop it. The Brighton manager really must get on Klopp’s and the coaching teams nerves.
I think a huge issue with our midfield options is that it is hard to see 3 across the season that you can say will be available 90 per cent of the team and that is before you get into whether we have 3 that dovetail well to mask each other weaknesses.When we win the league Klopp had a consistent 3 virtually all season.
From a planning point of view that must be really difficult for the whole team. Take yesterday, Jones plays differently to Milner, who is different to Thiago who is different to Gini. You could see Hendo telling Jones where to go at times during the game and when you add in Van Dijk is coming back from injury, has a new partner and is used to Gini playing in front of him it probably isn't that surprising that we were at 6 and 7s a bit yesterday.
I think just being able to select a consistent 3 for a while would make a difference. They don't necessarily need to be world beaters as the coaching staff and players could adapt to that with games. Look at last season, once we had to settle on Williams and Phillips, who probably aren't world beaters, our results picked up massively due to the quality in other areas.
Longer term, class though some of our players are - Naby, Thiago, The Ox, I just wouldn't look to build a team relying on them because they haven't stayed fit for a long run of games.

Offline Smellytrabs

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16928 on: October 31, 2021, 09:22:25 am »
Didn’t manage to see the game but have read midfield was an issue?

What went wrong?


It forgot to come out for the 2nd half.

Offline King_doggerel

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16929 on: October 31, 2021, 09:52:00 am »
What about Matip as a defensive midfielder when Fabinho is out?

that wouldn't be a bad call IMO

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16930 on: October 31, 2021, 10:06:41 am »
that wouldn't be a bad call IMO

you’re right it’s not bad it’s fucking terrible

Our entire system depends on mobility at the 6 (and the rest of the midfield obv) so …. Matip ?!

Offline Dazzer23

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16931 on: October 31, 2021, 10:09:27 am »
Didn’t manage to see the game but have read midfield was an issue?

What went wrong?

Quite simple in my opinion. We’ve got 8 midfielders but I would say Jones and Ox are 7th and 8th choice. We can maybe carry one in there, but when both are in there most other Prem midfields will be stronger.

Offline Luke1980

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16932 on: October 31, 2021, 10:17:56 am »
you’re right it’s not bad it’s fucking terrible

Our entire system depends on mobility at the 6 (and the rest of the midfield obv) so …. Matip ?!

You wouldn't class Fabinho as a particularly mobile midfielder though? He's probably more mobile than Matip, but far less than Henderson?

Offline FowlerLegend

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16933 on: October 31, 2021, 10:27:56 am »
You wouldn't class Fabinho as a particularly mobile midfielder though? He's probably more mobile than Matip, but far less than Henderson?
Personally think that is part of the problem, none of our options to play that role are massively mobile.

Offline Raaphael

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16934 on: October 31, 2021, 10:28:52 am »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?

Offline tubby

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16935 on: October 31, 2021, 10:37:21 am »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?

Someone who runs a lot and has a clean injury record.
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Offline Raaphael

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16936 on: October 31, 2021, 10:39:23 am »
Who`s available? Which clubs can be lured? What can we afford?

Offline FowlerLegend

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16937 on: October 31, 2021, 11:37:02 am »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?
Don't see us being active in January, imagine we will wait until next summer.
Don't think defensively we have got going yet in Midfield this season, with the exception of probably Leeds away where I barely recall them having any decent chances after the 5th minute.

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16938 on: October 31, 2021, 11:57:01 am »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?

I don't think so. Generally, there's slim pickings and not very good value at that time. I think we'll make do with what we have until the end of the season and then look to take stock and refresh that area of the pitch depending on how some players do this season.

Offline Vinay

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16939 on: October 31, 2021, 12:27:51 pm »
Is Fabinho back against A Madrid?

Offline rob1966

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16940 on: October 31, 2021, 12:32:47 pm »
Is Fabinho back against A Madrid?

Doubt it - Klopp was pretty downbeat about him on Friday and he's still not training.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16941 on: October 31, 2021, 12:49:16 pm »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?

We wont sign anyone in January. We reluctantly signed two defenders when we had none left. We actually have midfielders available.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16942 on: October 31, 2021, 12:57:47 pm »
Thiago and Fabinho are hopefully back soon, long before January, and then we have no use for another decent midfielder.  We wont find any top players either.
The CB situation was quite different,  with Gomez and VVD out for the season

Offline mickeydocs

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16943 on: October 31, 2021, 01:34:02 pm »
Could Gomez be an option at 6?
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16944 on: October 31, 2021, 01:35:43 pm »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?

Gini.

Offline SamLad

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16945 on: October 31, 2021, 01:39:45 pm »
Personally think that is part of the problem, none of our options to play that role are massively mobile.

how about move Trent alongside Hendo, with Joe at RB?

in a pinch, sometimes you have to compromise.  I don't think that's a huge compromise.

Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16946 on: October 31, 2021, 01:46:54 pm »
Could Gomez be an option at 6?

Rather put Matip there, sure he used to play there sometimes for Schalke

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16947 on: October 31, 2021, 01:51:51 pm »
how about move Trent alongside Hendo, with Joe at RB?

in a pinch, sometimes you have to compromise.  I don't think that's a huge compromise.

A repeat of last season, weakening several positions rather than just one.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16948 on: October 31, 2021, 02:00:33 pm »
Think we will drop more points with that midfield.

Offline peachybum

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16949 on: October 31, 2021, 02:28:08 pm »
how about move Trent alongside Hendo, with Joe at RB?

in a pinch, sometimes you have to compromise.  I don't think that's a huge compromise.

Given we have 4 top class attackers for 3 positions and a natural #10 in Minamino i think rather than moving one of our best players out of position tweaking the system and going 4231 is a better compromise.
 

I wanna be like Jurgen Klopp

Offline TSC

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16950 on: October 31, 2021, 02:32:11 pm »
Do we need to sign in January? Who fits the bill?

That ship sailed over the Summer. 

Offline Agent99

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16951 on: October 31, 2021, 02:43:06 pm »
As someone who knows fuck all about tactics etc, is the midfield set up differently this season? We are going to have games where we don't play well and yesterday was one of those. My worry is we had games in 18/19 and 19/20 where we didn't play well but we were able to manage those games and grind out results. Even only being 1-0 up we never looked nervy or like we would concede. That doesn't seem to be the case this season.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16952 on: October 31, 2021, 02:45:53 pm »
As someone who knows fuck all about tactics etc, is the midfield set up differently this season? We are going to have games where we don't play well and yesterday was one of those. My worry is we had games in 18/19 and 19/20 where we didn't play well but we were able to manage those games and grind out results. Even only being 1-0 up we never looked nervy or like we would concede. That doesn't seem to be the case this season.

There's a Fabinho sized hole in our midfield this season.

Offline Agent99

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16953 on: October 31, 2021, 02:55:09 pm »
There's a Fabinho sized hole in our midfield this season.
Didn't Fabinho play in the Brentford and Man City games where we were super open though? Also, someone had a stat recently which showed that when Fabinho was injured in the 19/20 season we hardly conceded when Henderson played the DM role.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16954 on: October 31, 2021, 02:59:46 pm »
We already have 9 points from 3 CL group games so this match against Atletico is definitely not a "must win".  We probably only need 1-2 more points to qualify so no point in rushing Thiago for this one.  Curtis, Hendo, and Ox to start and Thiago to come on when Ox tires if needed. 

Offline skipper757

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16955 on: October 31, 2021, 03:19:08 pm »
We play a risky game.  It's great for goal scoring, and it forces other teams to make a decision on how they want to respond.  When we lose the ball on the attack, we press high and condense the pitch (everyone has to move up, including Alisson).  Teams can play a direct long ball, but it's hard to hit a 50/60-yard ball beyond Van Dijk and CB partner and drop it in front of Alisson.  It's the safest (for not conceding chances to us), but the least effective.  The other option for the opposition is to try to play their way out.  If they are lax on the ball, we win it back instantly, either through taking possession directly, or having our CBs/CMs stepping up, playing on the front foot, and cutting out passes.  But if they're composed on the ball (like City or even like a Brighton), they can get the ball up the pitch quickly.  If Fabinho is not in there, our CMs could be wrong side, they could get turned, maybe they lose a 50/50, and next thing you know, it's a ton of space for the other team.  Our backline can still step up and play the offside (any hesitation by the other team's players on the ball could cause that move to break down).  If the opposing team times the pass well enough though, they can get 1 on 1 opportunities.

Or we could drop off and invite more of our players to come back to help snuff out the attack.  But then it leads to us not making challenges until the other team is very close to our box.

There's just no way to have perfect games.  We create a lot of chances typically and score a lot of goals, but we can't do that without taking some risks in defending.  Even in games when we're in full control, all it takes is one good set of passes, and the opposing team may have a chance to play in one of their attackers.  That game against Arsenal last year was probably the peak of it.  We dominated that game from start to finish.  Most of the time, Arsenal couldn't even dream of playing the ball out.  Aubameyang was completely anonymous.  Yet, up 2-1, there was a 5-10 minute stretch where twice Arsenal broke through the midfield and slid Lacazette in twice.  Once he was just offside (our high line worked).  The other, he was onside, and Alisson denied him with a great save (last line for us).  It worked out in the end, but on another day, that's an undeserved leveler created out of almost nothing.  You look at Brighton yesterday.  How many times did they play through and either slipped in an attacker (like March for his 1 on 1) or created opportunities as we backed off.  We caught them offside a couple of times when they played it early, but sometimes they were patient and got very deep into our box before we tried last-ditch challenges.  There was one sequence where they were showing a replay of a challenge on Salah in the Brighton box, and as soon as they returned to action, Brighton had the ball in our box.  That is some quick attack from a decent side.  Not everyone can play like that against us, but well-coached teams will no doubt try to play into the space beyond our midfielders and in front of the CBs.

We're always going to leave space, and it's just usually teams can't string the passes together or time their passes well enough (or like Burnley, just hoof it long too early).  Some teams will play aimlessly against us just to not concede possession in dangerous areas.  But decent sides will think they can get a few chances off us, and if they take them, we're going to concede.  Fabinho in there helps a lot, so we do need him back.  We just need to hold teams down enough and not concede goals in bunches.  We were the masters of winning games 2-1 during our title run and even our memorable games of last season.  Not perfect, but doing enough to get over the line.  We haven't had a single 2-1 result this year.  It feels like we could score in bunches, but also we could concede 2 in 5 minutes in some games.

Entertaining for sure, but will need to do better to see out results.
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16956 on: October 31, 2021, 03:57:17 pm »
Didn't Fabinho play in the Brentford and Man City games where we were super open though? Also, someone had a stat recently which showed that when Fabinho was injured in the 19/20 season we hardly conceded when Henderson played the DM role.

Yeah - it is about team shape and also freshness.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16957 on: October 31, 2021, 04:16:15 pm »
What about Matip as a defensive midfielder when Fabinho is out?

Not sure if its a terrible idea as a terrible idea is doing nothing and teams like Brighton can play through the gaps as if they were Barcelona. God knows what the best option would be when teams have 60 plus % possession and we refuse to keep the gaps between the lines tight. Yesterday I could have withdrawn one of our attacking players and shored up the backline with Gomez or Matip in a 3 man CD, packed the gaps more etc etc but who knows as we did not look fresh yesterday. Jurgen could have thrown on some fresh legs earlier ...anyway back to the midfield as we need a world class addition by next summer so we can freshen things up a tad.
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16958 on: October 31, 2021, 06:31:32 pm »
Yeah - it is about team shape and also freshness.

I think it's also about decision making and game understanding. In our setup, it's absolutely critical that when we lose the ball, the first few moments after losing it we try to get it back straight away. This will thwart most counter-attacks. In the instance that we can't win it back immediately, we need to be a lot better at ferrying players into manageable spaces and slowing the game down. This will allow us time to recover and regain shape and compactness (particularly in the fullback areas where we are often exploited and overloaded). Too often, one of our forward players gives it away and there's no immediate pressure. The ball is then shifted reasonably quickly to the flanks and the opposition is allowed to progress unchecked. We then don't do a great job of trying to contain the ball carrier, and some players are guilty of being in the wrong place, being flat footed or diving in and being overcommitted, and as a result we get exposed quickly.

That we haven't conceded more goals is purely down to have very good CBs and a top top GK who saves us time and again, and some poor finishing from the opposition.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #16959 on: October 31, 2021, 06:57:57 pm »
It would've been nice to have Niguez in the squad.
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