Author Topic: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara  (Read 797649 times)

Offline him_15

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3720 on: June 20, 2021, 03:33:26 am »
What's wrong with Spain really?
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3721 on: June 20, 2021, 05:11:50 am »
What's wrong with Spain really?

Goals. Or a lack thereof.

In the last 2 matches:

81% possession average.
29 shots on goal
10 shots on target
1,625 passes @ 88.5% accuracy
13 corners
1 goal
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Offline stewy17

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3722 on: June 20, 2021, 06:51:23 am »
What's wrong with Spain really?

Watching their last few games I couldn’t help thinking they looked like us during some of our worst times this past season, but with a more solid defence and no Salah to bail them out.

All the stats are in their favour but somehow they look quite ponderous at times & they lack quality in attacking areas.

Offline Ratboy3G

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3723 on: June 20, 2021, 09:16:16 am »
Can't remember a Spain side that looked this average, I'm happy for Spain not to qualify and Thiago to get a nice rest this summer.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3724 on: June 20, 2021, 10:11:28 am »
I'd imagine Spain are in transition and they must have a great crop of under-18's inspired by the Xavi, Iniesta team starting from 13 years ago, just about to come through.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3725 on: June 20, 2021, 11:26:13 am »
Can't remember a Spain side that looked this average, I'm happy for Spain not to qualify and Thiago to get a nice rest this summer.

Spain traditionally flattered to deceive and were the big underachievers. Late 90's/early 2000's they had the likes of Hierro, Enrique, Guardiola, Valeron, Mendieta, Raul, Morientes and then the likes of Casillas, Xavi and Puyol coming through. Yet they'd always go out in the last 16 or the quarters. Even at Euro 96 they dominated England and lost on pens. This current squad just isn't very good, yet they leave Thiago sat on their bench, their best player.

Even 10 years ago they weren't very entertaining though. They just had Xavi and Iniesta dominating the midfield and the likes of Cesc, Torres and Villa who had an end product.


I'd imagine they'll beat Slovakia and go through (or maybe sneak through with 3 draws) but can't see them going much further.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3726 on: June 20, 2021, 12:20:40 pm »
Spain have always bored the life out of me. Luis Enrique is pretty shite too.

Offline StevoHimself

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3727 on: June 20, 2021, 01:06:24 pm »
What's wrong with Spain really?

Someone pointed this out on Twitter and I couldn't help but agree. They're boring. Not their style of play. That team-sheet is just so uninspiring. Morata? Yeah, he's fine. Rodri? Yawn. Pedri? Everyone says he's great and I can't be bothered to disagree. I find myself resenting them, not wanting them to do well.

I think it's basically a result of following such an amazing generation of players. David Villa, Xavi, Iniesta, Torres etc. A sense of "you'll never be as good as they were." They just feel like they're missing a certain X factor. I don't know what it is, but they don't have it.

Online JackWard33

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3728 on: June 20, 2021, 04:12:27 pm »
Goals. Or a lack thereof.

In the last 2 matches:

81% possession average.
29 shots on goal
10 shots on target
1,625 passes @ 88.5% accuracy
13 corners
1 goal

These things have a habit of correcting themselves

Offline Fromola

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3729 on: June 20, 2021, 04:28:38 pm »
Someone pointed this out on Twitter and I couldn't help but agree. They're boring. Not their style of play. That team-sheet is just so uninspiring. Morata? Yeah, he's fine. Rodri? Yawn. Pedri? Everyone says he's great and I can't be bothered to disagree. I find myself resenting them, not wanting them to do well.

I think it's basically a result of following such an amazing generation of players. David Villa, Xavi, Iniesta, Torres etc. A sense of "you'll never be as good as they were." They just feel like they're missing a certain X factor. I don't know what it is, but they don't have it.

It's a lack of quality. Alba 5 or 6 years ago was a world class LB but hasn't been for the last few. Pique and Ramos gone from the squad, Busquets also not playing and not been up to scratch for years. Koke a decent player, but never really done it outside of Simeone's system at Atletico. Pedri a good young prospect but shouldn't be starting over Thiago. Morata is no David Villa or Torres.

Pre-2008 they always flattered to deceive but they had the quality.
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Online newterp

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3730 on: June 20, 2021, 04:57:31 pm »
These things have a habit of correcting themselves

In a three game tourney not a lot of time to correct

Offline Sangria

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3731 on: June 20, 2021, 05:12:08 pm »
It's a lack of quality. Alba 5 or 6 years ago was a world class LB but hasn't been for the last few. Pique and Ramos gone from the squad, Busquets also not playing and not been up to scratch for years. Koke a decent player, but never really done it outside of Simeone's system at Atletico. Pedri a good young prospect but shouldn't be starting over Thiago. Morata is no David Villa or Torres.

Pre-2008 they always flattered to deceive but they had the quality.

Up until 8th May 2019, Alba was considered one of the best attacking LBs in the world. His performances that season were noted as one of the main reasons why Barcelona were so potent. Others in that group may have been declining, but Alba was as good as ever. Until that date, that is.
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Offline Jon2lfc

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3732 on: June 20, 2021, 05:32:44 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/18/thiago-alcantara-we-see-less-magic-less-fantasy-footballers-do-more-but-faster

Well worth reading if you have a few minutes. Not much Liverpool related content but the way he talks about football in general is so interesting.
I can't read it as it says it requires a subscription.
Is it available elsewhere?

Offline Fromola

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3733 on: June 20, 2021, 06:29:05 pm »
Up until 8th May 2019, Alba was considered one of the best attacking LBs in the world. His performances that season were noted as one of the main reasons why Barcelona were so potent. Others in that group may have been declining, but Alba was as good as ever. Until that date, that is.

Hit and miss though. He had a similar night to Anfield in Rome when Barca blew a similar lead to go out the CL the season before and then had a poor World Cup. Messi was carrying that Barca team for years after Neymar left.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3734 on: June 20, 2021, 06:35:30 pm »
I can't read it as it says it requires a subscription.
Is it available elsewhere?

Doesn't require a subscription, you can just decline their requests for you signing up or giving them money

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3735 on: June 20, 2021, 07:21:31 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/18/thiago-alcantara-we-see-less-magic-less-fantasy-footballers-do-more-but-faster

Well worth reading if you have a few minutes. Not much Liverpool related content but the way he talks about football in general is so interesting.

Love it. He's such a smart guy.
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Offline StevoHimself

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3736 on: June 20, 2021, 11:09:13 pm »
It's a lack of quality. Alba 5 or 6 years ago was a world class LB but hasn't been for the last few. Pique and Ramos gone from the squad, Busquets also not playing and not been up to scratch for years. Koke a decent player, but never really done it outside of Simeone's system at Atletico. Pedri a good young prospect but shouldn't be starting over Thiago. Morata is no David Villa or Torres.

Pre-2008 they always flattered to deceive but they had the quality.

That's probably fair. I used to be quite fond of Alba, and Busquets was the absolute best DM in the world a while ago.

I just associate them with a certain stodginess at the moment. I was looking at their squad and trying to identify their next big star, the type of dynamic talent you build around. A player in that 22-25 age bracket that should be using a tournament like this to measure themselves against other young talents. Their Mbappe, Havertz, Locatelli etc.

Pau Torres, 24. Rodri, 24. Dani Olmo, 23. Ferran Torres, 21. Not bad. They're certainly all fairly well-established. Are they tournament defining players though? I don't know. It might sound silly just to say that I'd fancy Spain a lot more if Mbappe had been born in Las Palmas rather than Paris but there we are.

Offline CalgarianRed

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3737 on: June 21, 2021, 12:23:20 am »
That's probably fair. I used to be quite fond of Alba, and Busquets was the absolute best DM in the world a while ago.

I just associate them with a certain stodginess at the moment. I was looking at their squad and trying to identify their next big star, the type of dynamic talent you build around. A player in that 22-25 age bracket that should be using a tournament like this to measure themselves against other young talents. Their Mbappe, Havertz, Locatelli etc.

Pau Torres, 24. Rodri, 24. Dani Olmo, 23. Ferran Torres, 21. Not bad. They're certainly all fairly well-established. Are they tournament defining players though? I don't know. It might sound silly just to say that I'd fancy Spain a lot more if Mbappe had been born in Las Palmas rather than Paris but there we are.

Pedri could be that player. He is only 18 and is starting for both Spain and Barca. It took Iniesta and Xavi a few years into their 20's to get established so Pedri could well follow that curve.

They also have Ansu Fati who would have been part of the squad and possibly starting if not for injury. He is 18 as well and looks a top talent. I think he would start for Spain ahead of F Torres and Olmo.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3738 on: June 21, 2021, 05:53:04 am »
Pedri could be that player. He is only 18 and is starting for both Spain and Barca. It took Iniesta and Xavi a few years into their 20's to get established so Pedri could well follow that curve.

They also have Ansu Fati who would have been part of the squad and possibly starting if not for injury. He is 18 as well and looks a top talent. I think he would start for Spain ahead of F Torres and Olmo.

Pedri wouldn't be starting for the Barcelona or Spain teams that Xavi and Iniesta were breaking into though, to be fair.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3739 on: June 21, 2021, 09:25:38 am »
If Spain go out whilst keeping their only true world class player on bench I expect Enrique to be dropped pretty quickly though their issue is they just don't have the quality up front.

It's almost as if they forgot to breed strikers once they perfected the false 9 system. That worked because every single player was world class.

It is odd, Moreno had a v good season and Morata scores goals in the right setup.

Then again, Portugal were absolute gash in the group stages last time and ended up winning.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3740 on: June 21, 2021, 12:35:50 pm »
If Spain go out whilst keeping their only true world class player on bench I expect Enrique to be dropped pretty quickly though their issue is they just don't have the quality up front.

It's almost as if they forgot to breed strikers once they perfected the false 9 system. That worked because every single player was world class.

It is odd, Moreno had a v good season and Morata scores goals in the right setup.

Then again, Portugal were absolute gash in the group stages last time and ended up winning.

Morata is an average player. Not sure what setup you're refering to, he's only scored 20 goals in all competitions in a single season twice in his career, never exceeded that amount. Never scored more than 15 league goals anywhere he's been in a season.


Offline Jookie

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3741 on: June 21, 2021, 12:56:20 pm »
Morata is an average player. Not sure what setup you're refering to, he's only scored 20 goals in all competitions in a single season twice in his career, never exceeded that amount. Never scored more than 15 league goals anywhere he's been in a season.

Is Morata an out and out 9? Genuine question because the times I've seen him he looks to have more to his game than just being an out and out goalscorer (though he adopts that position on occasions).

Personally I don't think Morata is average. He's a very good player. What I think you could label 'average' is his goalscoring output versus his talent. He probably should be scoring more goals given his ability.
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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3742 on: June 21, 2021, 12:59:29 pm »
Is Morata an out and out 9? Genuine question because the times I've seen him he looks to have more to his game than just being an out and out goalscorer (though he adopts that position on occasions).

Personally I don't think Morata is average. He's a very good player. What I think you could label 'average' is his goalscoring output versus his talent. He probably should be scoring more goals given his ability.

he is a nine who has an average goal-scoring record given the amount of quality he's been surrounded everywhere he's been. He's never fulfilled the potential and hype that was around him when he broke through. He's been the same player ever since. There's nothing about him that stands out other than his ability to be an average finisher

Offline skipper757

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3743 on: June 21, 2021, 03:40:58 pm »
Morata's Werner-esque, isn't he?  Good off the ball, works hard, can do a lot for a team's movement but poor finishing costs them a lot of goals.  Can see why managers like him, but his output just isn't there, which can be frustrating to watch.

Back to Thiago, for Spain, could he just play with Pedri and then one of Rodri (more defensive-minded) or Koke (makes runs forward)?  I get that Spain dominate the ball anyway, but barely giving Thiago minutes just seems weird.
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Offline StevoHimself

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3744 on: June 21, 2021, 05:15:39 pm »
Morata's Werner-esque, isn't he?  Good off the ball, works hard, can do a lot for a team's movement but poor finishing costs them a lot of goals.  Can see why managers like him, but his output just isn't there, which can be frustrating to watch.

Back to Thiago, for Spain, could he just play with Pedri and then one of Rodri (more defensive-minded) or Koke (makes runs forward)?  I get that Spain dominate the ball anyway, but barely giving Thiago minutes just seems weird.

I was going to say, I don't know whether Morata is a slightly more complex/ frustrating player or whether he just isn't all that good. Not a great comparison, but in the same way some non-LFC fans might not rate Firmino because he doesn't tend to score a great deal of goals. I'm not suggesting that Morata is that type of player, but just that he might have a bit more about him than he gets credit for. I'm really not sure though.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 05:18:42 pm by StevoHimself »

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3745 on: June 21, 2021, 06:48:17 pm »
I was going to say, I don't know whether Morata is a slightly more complex/ frustrating player or whether he just isn't all that good. Not a great comparison, but in the same way some non-LFC fans might not rate Firmino because he doesn't tend to score a great deal of goals. I'm not suggesting that Morata is that type of player, but just that he might have a bit more about him than he gets credit for. I'm really not sure though.

No, Firmino has never been a proper #9 and never will, afterall he started his career playing as a midfielder/#10, and even if he isn't scoring goals, he's creating them. Morata doesn't do anything of the sort.

He doesn't have that ability.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3746 on: June 21, 2021, 08:37:54 pm »
I was going to say, I don't know whether Morata is a slightly more complex/ frustrating player or whether he just isn't all that good. Not a great comparison, but in the same way some non-LFC fans might not rate Firmino because he doesn't tend to score a great deal of goals. I'm not suggesting that Morata is that type of player, but just that he might have a bit more about him than he gets credit for. I'm really not sure though.

If we’re talking technical ability Morata lags far behind Firmino though.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3747 on: June 21, 2021, 09:57:42 pm »
No, Firmino has never been a proper #9 and never will, afterall he started his career playing as a midfielder/#10, and even if he isn't scoring goals, he's creating them. Morata doesn't do anything of the sort.

He doesn't have that ability.

Yeah, again, I wasn't trying to suggest their playing styles are similiar at all, just maybe that Morata has a bit more about him than being a centre-forward who doesn't score very many goals. I'm certainly not a massive fan of his though and wouldn't argue with anyone who doesn't think he's up to much.

Offline Redcap

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3748 on: June 22, 2021, 12:24:51 am »
Pedri could be that player. He is only 18 and is starting for both Spain and Barca. It took Iniesta and Xavi a few years into their 20's to get established so Pedri could well follow that curve.

They also have Ansu Fati who would have been part of the squad and possibly starting if not for injury. He is 18 as well and looks a top talent. I think he would start for Spain ahead of F Torres and Olmo.

My sense of it is for whatever reason, Spain's 'next generation' that was meant to emerge post their golden generation has never quite made it. In 2014, after they got dumped out of the World Cup at the first stage, they tried to bring through a new generation and there was a massive amount of hype about a lot of them.

Koke, Isco, De Gea, Bellerin, Thiago and Morata were all in their Euro 2016 squad and there was a lot of hope that they'd all to varying degrees be superstars. Statsbomb had an article that identified Morata as showing all the right thing for being one of the best players in the world. Carvajal, Saul, Rodri and Asensio were all in the World Cup 2018 squad and again, the expectations were sky high.

But you look at the squad for this tournament, and actually half of the above players didn't even make the cut.

Isco is now 29 and I don't think ever really even became a first choice player for Madrid despite having all of the hype in the world about him. Similar Asensio. Rodri has flattered to deceive since arriving on the scene at City.

Of all of this generation and a half of players, probably Thiago is the only one that's really lived up fully to expectations.

So is the answer that these players aren't good enough? I don't think it's as simple as that. With a couple of exceptions, ost of these players have been really good at various points at club levels - genuinely really high level performers for big clubs. They're not as good as Xavi and Iniesta were, but they're more than good enough to be expected to make it deep into every tournament, which just hasn't happened so far.



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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3749 on: June 22, 2021, 01:54:55 am »
My sense of it is for whatever reason, Spain's 'next generation' that was meant to emerge post their golden generation has never quite made it. In 2014, after they got dumped out of the World Cup at the first stage, they tried to bring through a new generation and there was a massive amount of hype about a lot of them.

Koke, Isco, De Gea, Bellerin, Thiago and Morata were all in their Euro 2016 squad and there was a lot of hope that they'd all to varying degrees be superstars. Statsbomb had an article that identified Morata as showing all the right thing for being one of the best players in the world. Carvajal, Saul, Rodri and Asensio were all in the World Cup 2018 squad and again, the expectations were sky high.

But you look at the squad for this tournament, and actually half of the above players didn't even make the cut.

Isco is now 29 and I don't think ever really even became a first choice player for Madrid despite having all of the hype in the world about him. Similar Asensio. Rodri has flattered to deceive since arriving on the scene at City.

Of all of this generation and a half of players, probably Thiago is the only one that's really lived up fully to expectations.

So is the answer that these players aren't good enough? I don't think it's as simple as that. With a couple of exceptions, ost of these players have been really good at various points at club levels - genuinely really high level performers for big clubs. They're not as good as Xavi and Iniesta were, but they're more than good enough to be expected to make it deep into every tournament, which just hasn't happened so far.

With Isco, it's only really been the last couple of years that he's gone down a few levels. In his first 5 years at Madrid he was pretty key for them, never scored many but he played in most of their games, 4 CL wins and La Liga winners twice. Mad seeing how far he's fallen off, he's only scored 4 league goals in the last three seasons.
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Offline bornandbRED

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3750 on: June 22, 2021, 02:23:38 pm »
The profile of player they produce is based on the style they played during that 08-12 run. Football has changed and super physicality has eclipsed sterile possession based football and I think that is as big a factor as any in their demise/the above players not setting the world alight as predicted. The likes of Morata, Isco, Rodri etc just can’t live with the frenetic pace the best teams play at these days.

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3751 on: June 22, 2021, 03:26:03 pm »
People not rating Rodri is absolutely wild to me

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3752 on: June 25, 2021, 10:55:07 am »

Offline dutchkop

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3753 on: June 25, 2021, 01:05:42 pm »
I can't read it as it says it requires a subscription.
Is it available elsewhere?
clean your browser cookies and click on link or use a mobile/tablet incognito browser --

Offline Jon2lfc

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3754 on: June 26, 2021, 01:54:27 pm »
clean your browser cookies and click on link or use a mobile/tablet incognito browser --
Thank you

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3755 on: June 26, 2021, 10:54:38 pm »
Spain might not score that many goals, but they rarely concede. Knockout tournaments are won by the team that remains undefeated. Spain still have a chance, despite not having a vintage squad.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline royhendo

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3756 on: June 27, 2021, 09:03:12 am »


That’s quite simply magnificent.
"Word of the day is 'philodox' (17th century): one who is in love with their own opinion, and who consequently believes that everyone else should share it."  @susie_dent on twitter - https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1419683653844668422

Offline Jon2lfc

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3757 on: June 27, 2021, 11:16:12 am »

is that a real photo from his earlier years used for Euro 2020?

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3758 on: June 27, 2021, 12:24:44 pm »


From when he was an extra in 'A Fist Full of Dollars'.
And all the world is football shaped, It's just for me to kick in space. And I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste.

Offline Songs to Sing

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Re: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara
« Reply #3759 on: June 27, 2021, 04:57:08 pm »
His dad?
-Rafael Benitez 03/06/2010: "Thank you so much once more and always remember: You'll never walk alone." No, thank you, you wondeful, humble, gracious man. You fought for us for years and won't be forgotten.-
The 5th Benitle