Author Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...  (Read 359335 times)

Online Robinred

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I thought the interesting part (it could almost be satire, if deliberate, though I don't suppose it was) was the perfectly understandable and proper outrage and offence at any association with the Nazis - which had been entirely lacking amongst those defending Livingstone for his assertions that Hitler started out as a Zionist, who insisted on critics 'disproving' the existence of the Haavara agreement rather than recognise the clearly deliberate offence at being associated with Adolf Hitler.


Quite. But then, faux outrage has always been an expedient tool for those under the spotlight.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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A question then.

Why doesn’t he instigate a truly independent appeals and discipline panel?

What possible reason could there be for THE anti racist party not to?

Yet they haven’t done it.  Odd.
Independent of whom ? Which cases should he intervene in and which cases should he not interfere with ?
Which cases should be dealt with immediately and which cases should have due process ?
I'm asking this because it seems you're all over the place on this subject.

Offline classycarra

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Independent of whom ? Which cases should he intervene in and which cases should he not interfere with ?
Which cases should be dealt with immediately and which cases should have due process ?
I'm asking this because it seems you're all over the place on this subject.

Don't tend to like generalising about everyone 'in this thread', but feel confident in saying that everyone else knows what independent means and doesn't share your struggle.

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Don't tend to like generalising about everyone 'in this thread', but feel confident in saying that everyone else knows what independent means and doesn't share your struggle.
I'm not part of your bubble or groupthink and personally I doubt your ability to recognise Independent when you see it...Which is probably why I didn't ask you. 

Offline classycarra

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I'm not part of your bubble or groupthink and personally I doubt your ability to recognise Independent when you see it...Which is probably why I didn't ask you. 

You're absolutely right, I surround myself in an echo chamber of people who understand the word independent ;D

You've caught me out, should have declared my biases

Offline bigbonedrawky

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You're absolutely right, I surround myself in an echo chamber of people who understand the word independent ;D

You've caught me out, should have declared my biases
Independent of whom ? I not really interested in  whether you understand the definition of a simple word or not...
But well done anyway give yourself a pat on the back and a nice lolly.     

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Independent of whom ? I not really interested in  whether you understand the definition of a simple word or not...
But well done anyway give yourself a pat on the back and a nice lolly.   


What the fuck is your problem,are you just desperate to get the thread closed  ?
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Independent of whom ? Which cases should he intervene in and which cases should he not interfere with ?
Which cases should be dealt with immediately and which cases should have due process ?
I'm asking this because it seems you're all over the place on this subject.
Independent of direct influence from anyone with power to influence the outcome of the investigation.

In business this is common practice.  Companies employ independent whistle blowing organizations which will anonymously hear complaints and follow and apply the companies disciplinary policy for them.

You ask questions to which there should already be very well defined answers.  That no one can define these only goes to show what an utter mess this process is in.  They seem to have extremely clear protocols for expelling members for other reasons.

So you ask for things which virtually all organisations seem to have found perfectly workable solutions.
I go into work and call a Jewish person a Zionist cum bucket, I get sacked.  Simple.

It’s really really simple for almost everyone else, so I’m not so sure why it’s difficult for THE anti racist party when it comes to dealing with anti semisemitism. Could there be a reason for that?
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Offline Trada

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Skynews saying why is Jeremy acting fast against Hayter and not other cases. It's because he can sack her from the shadow cabinet thats one of the power he has got but not to intervene in the outcome of  cases being acted on by Jennie.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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I thought the interesting part (it could almost be satire, if deliberate, though I don't suppose it was) was the perfectly understandable and proper outrage and offence at any association with the Nazis - which had been entirely lacking amongst those defending Livingstone for his assertions that Hitler started out as a Zionist, who insisted on critics 'disproving' the existence of the Haavara agreement rather than recognise the clearly deliberate offence at being associated with Adolf Hitler.
And, frankly, Hayter's comments were comparatively mild Hitler references; they were about the siege mentality of Corbyn et al. She might have been unwise to use such references in the present situation, and the mock outrage from the Labour leadership quite predictable. Suddenly, they are concerned about the feeling of Jewish people and members. Really!?
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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What the fuck is your problem,are you just desperate to get the thread closed  ?
Nope, just desperate for the attention. He imagines himself a great thinker, with insights which when he even points out to the rest of us, we still fail to see. Stupid me; stupid us.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 10:23:39 am by Jiminy Cricket »
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Offline Trada

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Something strange is going on at Watson CLP, He cancelled one of the meeting because the members were going to have a vote to move the meetings from delegate ones to all member meetings because it a way the right keep power in the CLPs.

All the local Labour councillors came out in support of Jennie and against the bullyboy tactics of Watson apart from 2 that happened to work for Watson.

And now the Sandwell council leader, CEO, and deputy leader all resign all close allies of Watson.

And rumors that he may face a reselection challenge, surely if he thinks this will happen he will challenge Jeremy he might as well do he would have nothing to lose.

I hope he does that would be great fun.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline classycarra

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And, frankly, Hayter's comments were comparatively mild Hitler references; they were about the siege mentality of Corbyn et al. She might have been unwise to use such references in the present situation, and the mock outrage from the Labour leadership quite predictable. Suddenly, they are concerned about the feeling of Jewish people and members. Really!?

They clearly weren't about Nazism, as the spokesperson is hypocritically and antagonistically suggesting (Redmark is spot on about the lack of scorn for their pal Livingstone). It's pretty clearly a comment on demagoguery and the weirdos surrounding Corbyn

Offline classycarra

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I hope he does that would be great fun.

Perverse to enjoy the dismantling of the Labour party so much.

Offline classycarra

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Nope, just desperate for the attention. He imagines himself a great thinker, with insights which when he even points out to the rest of us, we still frail to see. Stupid me; stupid us.

Ironically, given he accused me of groupthink for saying I knew what independent meant, he was being factional.

Trying to murky the waters of what Tepid said about independent processes, because he has said the 2010 EDM from Corbyn about Yemeni Jews isn't really sufficient.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Something strange is going on at Watson CLP, He cancelled one of the meeting because the members were going to have a vote to move the meetings from delegate ones to all member meetings because it a way the right keep power in the CLPs.

All the local Labour councillors came out in support of Jennie and against the bullyboy tactics of Watson apart from 2 that happened to work for Watson.

And now the Sandwell council leader, CEO, and deputy leader all resign all close allies of Watson.

And rumors that he may face a reselection challenge, surely if he thinks this will happen he will challenge Jeremy he might as well do he would have nothing to lose.

I hope he does that would be great fun.

If you really enjoy seeing the Labour party in this amount of turmoil when this country is facing one its biggest challenges in years, than to be honest you are not much of a Labour supporter are you. Before the guy you so admire took over, this party actually had a purpose now at the one of the most crucial times the party is rooted and directionless yet you want yet more turmoil to overtake it. You are a true Corbynite. After all, who wants to form a Government when you can go on yet more pointless marches?  ::)
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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If you really enjoy seeing the Labour party in this amount of turmoil when this country is facing one its biggest challenges in years, than to be honest you are not much of a Labour supporter are you. Before the guy you so admire took over, this party actually had a purpose now at the one of the most crucial times the party is rooted and directionless yet you want yet more turmoil to overtake it. You are a true Corbynite. After all, who wants to form a Government when you can go on yet more pointless marches?  ::)

I thought Trada was a green voter?

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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If you really enjoy seeing the Labour party in this amount of turmoil when this country is facing one its biggest challenges in years, than to be honest you are not much of a Labour supporter are you. Before the guy you so admire took over, this party actually had a purpose now at the one of the most crucial times the party is rooted and directionless yet you want yet more turmoil to overtake it. You are a true Corbynite. After all, who wants to form a Government when you can go on yet more pointless marches?  ::)
It is like a 'group personality disorder'. Maybe it will be recognised as a thing in psychology/psychiatry in the future. Hey, maybe I've just coined the phrase and the future syndrome will come to be known as Cricket's. Seems apt.
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Offline filopastry

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I think the LibDems should come up with a new slogan for the next GE "We're the ones who aren't batshit fucking crazy"

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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I thought Trada was a green voter?
I understand that Trada was one of the entryists after the rules changes under Milliband.
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Offline jillcwhomever

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I thought Trada was a green voter?

I find it truly strange how obsessed he is with Tom Watson.  :o

It is like a 'group personality disorder'. Maybe it will be recognised as a thing in psychology/psychiatry in the future. Hey, maybe I've just coined the phrase and the future syndrome will come to be known as Cricket's. Seems apt.

You get the impression its just a game for some of them, truly bizarre the whole lot of them.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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I thought Trada was a green voter?

You say that as if it's a negative thing.

The Greens are a progressive, left-wing party, who put the environment at the forefront of decision making.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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I thought Trada was a green voter?
You say that as if it's a negative thing.

The Greens are a progressive, left-wing party, who put the environment at the forefront of decision making.
Labour's loss is The Green's gain. :)
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Offline Sangria

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I find it truly strange how obsessed he is with Tom Watson.  :o

He's a Labour official with as much of a mandate in the party as Corbyn. Ergo he must be removed as a threat to Corbyn, so the leader may be undisputed and all authority is derived from him alone, rather than have someone else with an alternative and just as valid power base.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Labour peers consider Corbyn no-confidence vote .... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49031917

Labour peers are poised to hold a vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership over his response to claims of anti-Semitism in the party.

This follows the sacking of Baroness Hayter - a critic of Mr Corbyn over the issue - as Brexit minister.

The BBC understands Labour peers will hold an emergency meeting on Monday to consider a motion calling for a no-confidence vote.

If passed, a ballot of all Labour peers will follow.

The result would not affect Mr Corbyn's position, however, as it is an expression of opinion rather than in any way binding.

But BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said such a vote would be "unprecedented".


I wonder which way Shami will vote?...
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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I wonder which way Shami will vote?...
Surely, there is no real doubt.
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Offline classycarra

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Surely, there is no real doubt.

Sick note is guaranteed

Offline Red-Soldier

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You say that as if it's a negative thing.

The Greens are a progressive, left-wing party, who put the environment at the forefront of decision making.

Labour's loss is The Green's gain. :)

Certainly has been recently  ;)

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Skynews saying why is Jeremy acting fast against Hayter and not other cases. It's because he can sack her from the shadow cabinet thats one of the power he has got but not to intervene in the outcome of  cases being acted on by Jennie.
odd that there are email records of him doing just that.

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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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CON: 25% (+1)
LAB: 21% (+1)
LDEM: 20% (+1)
BREX: 19% (-2)
GRN: 8% (-1)

via YouGov
Chgs. w/ 10 Jul

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I thought Trada was a green voter?

The Green Party is probably the only one that's half-decent in British Politics.
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Offline redmark

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Independent of whom ? Which cases should he intervene in and which cases should he not interfere with ?
Which cases should be dealt with immediately and which cases should have due process ?
I'm asking this because it seems you're all over the place on this subject.
All cases should have due process. I'm not in favour of the idea being mooted of automatic expulsion on referral. Cases need to be 'triaged' quickly to determine if a case is serious enough to warrant immediate suspension while investigated (does the behaviour have an immediate, ongoing impact on the ability of others to engage and contribute?). There needs to be clear target timelines for all cases, not just the high profile ones. There needs to be a process for malicious or over-sensitive referrals, too.

Independent of... any perception of political interference. Any disciplinary body which is exposed to (or perceived to be exposed to) several types of potential compromise to it's independence is no longer fit for purpose - and it's worth recognising that that purpose now is not only to deal fairly with accusations of antisemitism, but to be seen to be doing so. That means if the body's leadership or staff is subject to appointment from any other part of the party; or if it's decision making process is subject to arbitrary review by other parts of the party (and yes, I'd include Tom Watson in that).

For the Labour Party currently, that is a problem. Clearly it has to be independent from the leadership - but also right now that needs to extend to independent of bodies accountable to the membership, given clear concerns that the problem stems from the 'new membership' of the party, or at least it's most vocal elements and representatives.

I also recognise there's a bit of hypocrisy from some critics of the leadership on this subject, demanding the leadership crack down on antisemitism, yet also that the leadership does not interfere in the process. That leaves quite a narrow scope for the leadership to provide 'acceptable' focus and urgency. It must be said though that the clearest way to provide that leadership would be to be much clearer about what is unacceptable; and it can't easily do that, because certain elements of the leadership clearly don't get it. A quick glance at any twitter discussion on the subject reveals that there are plenty on the left who simply don't recognise that asking "who is Tom Watson working for?" alongside a list of campaign funding from FoI and a Jewish philanthropist is wrong. It needs to be spelled out by the leadership that being a 'Friend of Israel' - even, a self-proclaimed Zionist - is actually okay within the party. People don't have to agree with the view, but it has to be made clear that the Labour Party is not, and can not become, an organisation dominated by a single ideological purity on the question of Palestine.

So, it's going to have to be independent of the party itself - or a wholly reconstituted body within the party with structure, accountability and remit designed based on independent recommendation - and some degree of auditing - from outside the party. Perhaps something accountable to 'trustees' from within and without the party which do not and cannot be seen to represent - or be immediately reactively accountable to - any particular strand of party opinion.

An institutionally racist organisation cannot fix itself alone. An organisation which believes it is wrongly perceived as institutionally racist should be desperate for independent confirmation.
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Offline redmark

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Something strange is going on at Watson CLP, He cancelled one of the meeting because the members were going to have a vote to move the meetings from delegate ones to all member meetings because it a way the right keep power in the CLPs.

All the local Labour councillors came out in support of Jennie and against the bullyboy tactics of Watson apart from 2 that happened to work for Watson.

And now the Sandwell council leader, CEO, and deputy leader all resign all close allies of Watson.

And rumors that he may face a reselection challenge, surely if he thinks this will happen he will challenge Jeremy he might as well do he would have nothing to lose.

I hope he does that would be great fun.
I thought the latest ploy against Tom (;)) was that Galloway was going to run against him and sweep to a resounding victory for the huddled masses against the bourgeois lackeys of the Zionist conspiracy?
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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All cases should have due process. I'm not in favour of the idea being mooted of automatic expulsion on referral. Cases need to be 'triaged' quickly to determine if a case is serious enough to warrant immediate suspension while investigated (does the behaviour have an immediate, ongoing impact on the ability of others to engage and contribute?). There needs to be clear target timelines for all cases, not just the high profile ones. There needs to be a process for malicious or over-sensitive referrals, too.
I think triaged might be exactly right. More minor cases can be dealt with without suspension; more serious (and credible) complaints result in suspension pending outcome of investigation; credible accusations against senior officials result in suspension and a fast tracked investigation.

Perhaps it would require a little more nuance than what I suggested, but it is not that difficult of a concept to stream different kinds of complaint. Certainly, (senior) officials need to be fast tracked. This means that they are not out of operation for longer than necessary; and it also results in making (speedy and publicised) examples of unacceptable behavior.
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The Green Party is probably the only one that's half-decent in British Politics.

The Greens have their fair share of "characters" on the extremes as well

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If you really enjoy seeing the Labour party in this amount of turmoil when this country is facing one its biggest challenges in years, than to be honest you are not much of a Labour supporter are you. Before the guy you so admire took over, this party actually had a purpose now at the one of the most crucial times the party is rooted and directionless yet you want yet more turmoil to overtake it. You are a true Corbynite. After all, who wants to form a Government when you can go on yet more pointless marches?  ::)


The state of the country does not matter to the hard-core Corbynite like Jizzer. The highest office in the the UK isn’t Prime Minister, it’s the leader of the Labour Party. And so Corbyn has already reached the highest office. Moreover it doesn’t matter that the Labour Party is losing members every day and that one day soon it will lose MPs too. In fact a smaller party would mean a purer party to the Jizzers. And purity means 100 per cent loyalty to Corbyn, no questions asked.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Zeb

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CON: 25% (+1)
LAB: 21% (+1)
LDEM: 20% (+1)
BREX: 19% (-2)
GRN: 8% (-1)

via YouGov
Chgs. w/ 10 Jul

Add a ton of salt, but the Flavible projection is in the ballpark range for what I've been seeing more quietly from ex-party strategists on polling the past few months. Of course, things can and do change and this is just a snapshot of how things look right now.

Flavible Projection
Con: 272 (-46)
Lab: 194 (-68)
LDem: 84 (+72)
SNP: 53 (+18)
BRX: 24 (+24)
PC: 4 (-)
Grn: 1 (-)
Changes w/ 2017



 
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Online TepidT2O

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You could get a lib, lab, SNP alliance of it weren’t for one party being pro brexit
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Zeb

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You could get a lib, lab, SNP alliance of it weren’t for one party being pro brexit

Labour's current policy on a referendum has at least half an eye to the possibility. Thing which some are pointing out is that this is all trying to figure out results when not a lot has changed for a lot of people, especially Brexiteers. So start kicking 10% off the value of their house/s (OBR's prediction of result of 'no deal') and I think we'll be struggling to find too many who'll own to ever voting for it.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

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https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1150729977538781187

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BREAKING: Labour staff GMB branch has just passed this motion, effectively saying workers have no confidence in leadership over antisemitism, NDAs and citing a 'mental health crisis' among workers. Huge rift between leadership and staff.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1151848798659981313

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Am told majority was 124 - 4, to be precise. Many horrified that it had to be a secret ballot, such is the level of fear and suspicion among Labour staff at the moment.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1151853483366199296