Topic: How far are we willing to change our way of living to save the planet?

[Seebab]

That is just forcing the Western way of life on these people, has anyone asked them are they quite happy just doing what they do now? If we then industrialise them, all we are doing is adding to the problems we already have. Last thing we need is factories being built all over Africa, more roads, more cars, more phones laptops etc etc.

I didn't mention anywhere that we ourselves should force our aspects of life onto them but there is no ignoring what the Chinese are doing there right now. I have worked on numerous development projects in West Africa for instance and the Chinese are funding the building of roads, airports and ports to access Africa's wealth of resources. One would hope some of this investment is aiding Malians and Ivoirians and Togolese by giving them higher paying jobs, even if the Chinese don't really care about aid. There are a number of regions booming in technology and entrepreneurship right now, notably the large urban areas in Rwanda, Kenya, Ethiopia and Nigeria.

Unfortunately, as you remark, development is both aiding (increased incomes and increased standard of living reducing the need for having additional children) but harming societies (increased pollution and environmental degradation because of increased consumption).   

[Nobby Reserve]

I didn't mention anywhere that we ourselves should force our aspects of life onto them but there is no ignoring what the Chinese are doing there right now. I have worked on numerous development projects in West Africa for instance and the Chinese are funding the building of roads, airports and ports to access Africa's wealth of resources. One would hope some of this investment is aiding Malians and Ivoirians and Togolese by giving them higher paying jobs, even if the Chinese don't really care about aid. There are a number of regions booming in technology and entrepreneurship right now, notably the large urban areas in Rwanda, Kenya, Ethiopia and Nigeria.

Unfortunately, as you remark, development is both aiding (increased incomes and increased standard of living reducing the need for having additional children) but harming societies (increased pollution and environmental degradation because of increased consumption).

But the Chinese are merely doing a polite form of pillaging. It would aid the longer term prosperity of these countries to develop their own industry to exploit their own natursl resources.

There does tend to be a culture of short-termism in Africa, where regional big cheeses are easy seduced by shiny things.

[kesey]

Long time since I cycled around Liverpool so I've no idea how bad it is, I used to ride from Kirkby to the Iceland in Old Swan as a kid to do 2 hours work, 22 miles round trip, or I'd ride the 14 mile round trip to Beatties in the precinct to get a tin of model paint and I never felt in danger. There is no way I will ride in Manc, they are honestly some of the worst drivers I have come across and the roads are just not suitable. The cycle paths are used as additional parking, as Carp says, they skim cyclists, the impatience is unbelievable. No fucker pays attention, almost every c*nt is on the phone, red traffic lights are just there for decoration - I see about 6 offenses a day - if I could be arsed, I would be sending dashcam footage to the Police every journey. I had to stop riding the motorbike to work as the wife was panicking like fuck every day until I got home - her issue not mine - but it isn't nice to walk in to a wife in tears because you are late home. I did have quite a few very near misses due to twats pulling out in front of me and had stopped enjoying riding. There are loads who do cycle and those I speak to say it is a scary journey to and from work.

The one thing Trafford Council have done is install bollards right along Talbot Road, which leads to where I work, to seperate the cycle lane from the traffic, they had to do this as even though it is a marked cycle lane, as cyclists where still be injured and killed by car drivers.

They dont see you it is that simple.

What does my head in is if the roads are too dangerous which is usually around 8am to 9am and 3.30pm to 5.30pm I get on the pavement as it's too scary on the road. Then someone has a go at you for being on the pavement. Also. At traffic lights when cars are too close to the kirb I sometimes get on the pavement only to sometimes get the same shit. I cycle slow when on pavements and I mean slow. Its nice to see new cycle lanes entering town these days especially entering from the Baltic Quarters bit.  I also read that Ranleigh Street will be a car freezone after certain hours at somepoint soon. I cant renember where I read it though.

[Indomitable_Carp]

^^^I do the same, and take extra care around prams, kids and old people and the like, stopping or cycling walking speed if I can't give a wide birth when getting past. Doesn't stop you getting dirty looks though, but only the occasional comment.

You do get some people riding like absolute tits on the pavements at times though. But ultimately if the road looks like its liable to kill me, I'll take to the pavement.

[rob1966]

^^^I do the same, and take extra care around prams, kids and old people and the like, stopping or cycling walking speed if I can't give a wide birth when getting past. Doesn't stop you getting dirty looks though, but only the occasional comment.

You do get some people riding like absolute tits on the pavements at times though. But ultimately if the road looks like its liable to kill me, I'll take to the pavement.

In reply to both you and Kesey, your experiences show just how backward a country we are and also how selfish people can be. As you say, the tits give the decent and professional cyclists a bad name. I watched this morning as 4 of them rode through a red light because the green man was on.

Driving along today, there was a cycle lane, luckily empty and as I approached a grid, I realised it had sank about 6 inches, I had to choice but to swerve into the cycle lane - that kind of crap shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Car drivers are far too aggressive, I've had them try to bully me out of the way when I'm in the truck, I'm 14,000 kg unladen and usually between 30,000 and 39,000kg loaded, a car will disappear if I hit it. I wont swerve though, I've a wife and 2 kids, so I will kill them before I will kill myself.

[kesey]

Yep to both.

Last week a driver in Wavertree couldn't be arsed waiting in traffic . As I was just going on the inside of him he decided to mount the pavement to get on the High St almost knocking me off. Last month on Victoria St in town I was on the road and some driver turned in to go down a side street . This was just as I was about to cycle past the side street. He never seen me so I break. Just about as Iam about to go around him he realised he took the wrong side street so breaked and reversed nearly knocking me off again. Iam 100% sure he never knew I was there at all.

Like Ive already said. They do not see you.

[kesey]

Just read through the posts again.

Nowt worse than loose grids or potholes especially when its been raining as you cant see the fuckers. Options are to swerve into the road or to cycle on the pavement.

[telekon]

Not sure 'willpower' is quite right there. Lots of people's income is nowhere near enough to plan for retirement, even if it is 'halfway decent'. And when you work a shit job that makes no discernible difference to the world (like 90% of office jobs, for example) and you are constantly bombarded with advertisements - like you can't opt out of the fucking billboards in the street or on motorways that flash at you ideals of how life could be...it's not on the shoulders of individual humans IMO, its the way society is constructed.

Yeah, it's the global economic system that needs to change.
https://www.sciencealert.com/un-draft-report-says-we-must-transition-economy-to-tackle-climate-change

Makes me think of this beauty. No bloody advertisement invading you and the city.
https://99percentinvisible.org/article/clean-city-law-secrets-sao-paulo-uncovered-outdoor-advertising-ban/

[tbonejones]

On this issue I think the rhetoric that blames the poor – in particular I’m referring to those claiming that a huge part of the problem is population growth – is largely untrue and completely unhelpful. It goes to shift the blame away from those that should shoulder much of it.

Those nations that people have referred to (developing nations if you must label them) in which populations are growing the most are not seeing a relative rise in emissions. The greatest increases in damaging emissions are coming from developed nations.

The problem is not that people in Africa are breeding too much. These people are using far less energy and contributing far less to the problem than those in wealthier countries. The problem, in my opinion of course, is that the political and economic system in the west demands growth, it demands that we desire to have more, it demands profit at all costs. We are using the planet to drive this cut-throat growth in almost every industry.

Don’t blame the poor. Blame the politicians in our ‘world-leading’ countries who fail to get close to approaching the problem, largely because of the money that’s allowed to influence them in failing to introduce regulations that might protect our planet and help to progress to a more sustainable world.

[Indomitable_Carp]

On a slightly unrelated note, was riding my bike home down Prinny Ave just before, had a car speed within a foot of me only to pull right in front of me and slow to a stop 20 metres further on so he could park at the side of the road. Prick.

Then literally five seconds later I had a van speed also within a foot of me, beeping his horn. Then I got to the end of Prinny Ave, where he was stuck in traffic and gave him a shrug of the shoulders, which is when he wound down his window screaming I was too far in the middle of the road (I wasn't, and its a fucking two-lane road anyway) and should basically be riding in the gutter at the side of the road, before throwing a Lucozade over me and speeding off. Fucking wanted to punch the c*nts head in.

Another day riding my bike home on the roads of Liverpool 

[Seebab]

On this issue I think the rhetoric that blames the poor – in particular I’m referring to those claiming that a huge part of the problem is population growth – is largely untrue and completely unhelpful. It goes to shift the blame away from those that should shoulder much of it.

Those nations that people have referred to (developing nations if you must label them) in which populations are growing the most are not seeing a relative rise in emissions. The greatest increases in damaging emissions are coming from developed nations.

The problem is not that people in Africa are breeding too much. These people are using far less energy and contributing far less to the problem than those in wealthier countries. The problem, in my opinion of course, is that the political and economic system in the west demands growth, it demands that we desire to have more, it demands profit at all costs. We are using the planet to drive this cut-throat growth in almost every industry.

Don’t blame the poor. Blame the politicians in our ‘world-leading’ countries who fail to get close to approaching the problem, largely because of the money that’s allowed to influence them in failing to introduce regulations that might protect our planet and help to progress to a more sustainable world.

Good post.

On the subject of population growth in the 'developing' world, it is not an issue now but could well be in a few decades time when middle classes start to emerge in those countries. The truth is we need to stop the growth now because later on it will make things worse for those countries and the world in general. When you look at Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia or Indonesia with 100 million+ people, no they don't contribute to much now on a per capita scale but when they start to become richer, their consumption rates will increase drastically. Look at how much rich Arabs consume in Saudi Arabia and the gulf states. It is totally unsustainable.

However, as you say, this is looking forward rather than looking at today's problems, where most emissions are indeed coming from us in Europe, North America and East Asia. 

Regarding your second point on not blaming the poor, I agree completely. In fact, it reminded me of the BBC article I read today on how to address the issue of carbon taxes on poorer populations. See link: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-46522126

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Population explosion in 'developing' countries may not contribute to global warming/climate change as much as 'developed' countries, but they are and will be putting serious pressure on the existence of rainforests, critical biodiversity habitats and other sensitive ecosystems, simply due to the need for food and space. Endemic species are being wiped out by habitat loss and land use change to feed more and more number of people, due to the dual pressures of population growth and economic movement. The idea that the western concept of 'development' is a good model for the rest of the world is highly debatable.

The sort of birth rates we are seeing in certain regions spells is simply not sustainable for the future of earth as we know it. I do not buy into the idea that somehow humans are entitled to wipe out forests and entire species for their 'development'. The rate of population growth will lead to the 'development' of areas so far untouched by humans (As quickly diminishing as they are..) and further pressures on natural resources and deleterious impacts on forests and biodiversity levels.

Even talking about emissions, the LULUCF sector is the 2nd largest contributor to net carbon levels on earth, pretty much exclusively driven by the demand for more space , food and money for humans. The rampant deforestation happening in Indonesia is due to the exponential growth of industries like Palm Oil, Timber, Rubber, coal and minerals, for meeting demand from rapidly developing countries like India, Brazil and China as well as 'developed' regions like North America and Europe.  It is easy to predict the consequences of population growth as more of everything will be needed to accommodate rising consumption.

It is not about 'blaming the poor' as someone mentioned, it is about anticipating the future consequences of unsustainable population growth rates in certain parts of the world and addressing it through workable interventions. 

High levels of consumption from 'developed countries' is a massive problem as well and needs to be addressed as a priority. If you look at per capita consumption, Europe and North America are much higher than any developing country and the adverse environmental impact this has had on areas producing the necessary commodities are well documented. Which is why the economically 'developed' countries need to invest heavily in sustainable development of high population risk regions, including education for sensible family planning and building frameworks for incentivizing people to have fewer children with better prospects for the future. At the same time, these countries should take concrete steps extremely high consumption rates of commodities with a high environmental footprint like beef and palm oil internally and promote a shift to more sustainable alternatives.

Unfortunately reducing the demand for fossil fuels, livestock and agricultural commodities significantly in Europe and North America will help  the present and near future, but the impacts of 50 billion people on the earth in a thousand years is scary thing to contemplate.

Here is a heartwarming stat for you, at current growth rates, Africa will have a population of 355 billion people by 2200..  yay!

[markedasred]

The current rate of population growth is simply unsustainable. The population growth rate in certain parts of the world is pointing towards disastrous consequences for the planet.  Consider the list of countries with the highest birth rates copied below. Almost all of those countries are economically bottom of the barrel.

Niger    48.698 births/thousand    1
Angola    44.07 births/thousand    2
Chad    43.864 births/thousand    3
Somalia    42.953 births/thousand    4
Burundi    42.462 births/thousand    5
Mali            41.736 births/thousand    6
Uganda    41.615 births/thousand    7
Gambia    40.728 births/thousand    8
DR Congo    40.655 births/thousand    9
Zambia    38.985 births/thousand    10
Burkina Faso    38.612 births/thousand    11
Nigeria    38.143 births/thousand    12
Mozambique    37.961 births/thousand    13
Malawi    37.743 births/thousand    14
Tanzania    37.631 births/thousand    15
Ivory Coast    36.38 births/thousand    16
Senegal    36.197 births/thousand    17
South Sudan    35.685 births/thousand    18
Timor-Leste    35.67 births/thousand    19
Guinea-Bissau    35.644 births/thousand    20

Cripes, 95% of the problem according to your list is African countries. The Births per thousand doesn't take in to account the uncontrolled growth of Nigeria, and the shocking levels of pollution in all the cities there, again uncontrolled and toxic. Me cutting out beef or ditching the car is not even the sub microscopic equivalent of the gnat on the gnats arse of that beast. I'm not much of a consumerist, but there's somewhere that outdoes me in terms of carbon irresponsibility at a rate of thousands more times every minute than I will be irresponsible for over my whole lifetime.