Topic: David Amess MP stabbed and killed* News updates only.

[Andy82lfc]

This is sadly where we are now.  I can't see how this isn't politically motivated.  The wedge deliberately driven into our political system, setting people against one another with intolerance, suspicion and paranoia, was bound to lead to violence.

My only surprise is that nobody has attacked a Tory MP sooner. Murder is no solution to the problems our society faces; but when politics pushes hatred and intolerance, creates desperation and anger, with seeming no end in sight and nobody able to do anything about it, then you reap what you sow.

Could be wrong but historically most attacks seem to come from right leaning nutters on left wing politicians I think, so this may be a more rare occasion where a right wing politician is targeted.

[Jm55]

How would Johnson dying not be us working with the democratic system? They would just input another other of those Tory c*nts in his place instead wouldn’t they?

I think his point is not wishing death upon the politicians that you don’t like and instead working democratically for a better governance.

[Sangria]

I think his point is not wishing death upon the politicians that you don’t like and instead working democratically for a better governance.

Yup.

[clinical]

Some of the comments on twitter are equally grim. Yes he didn't have same view of politics as many of us but my god, what are we becoming.

[TepidT2O]

A terrible day for our democracy.

Another one.

His poor family

[Nobby Reserve]

There's also the issue of the use of seriously underhand electioneering tactics, and using organisations like Cambridge Analytica to mould public opinion and inflame anger.

The Torie have always had the majority of the printed media on their side, now have the BBCs news editorial as a mouthpiece, and have mastered social media to exploit this resource as well. They've used the electoral position that this has given them to enact policy that is directly causing death and suffering.

They're the party that looks after the wealthy, the party whose number one aim is to perpetuate wealth/income disparity.

I can sort of understand people becoming so exasperated at how more and more odds are stacked in their favour - and every time a new organ for information comes along, the right-wing take control of it. It promotes a sense of helplessness.

[Jm55]

Yeah it’s worked well the last 11 years like 

Hence the ‘disillusioned’ comment I guess.

It’s shit and I share the frustrations but nevertheless democracy is better than a dictatorship, or anarchy.

[Ray K]

Awful news. Seemed to be well-liked across the aisles of the Commons. RIP.

But it's not surprising. There's so much bile and vitriol being stoked online every day without any regulation of the social media providers. Sure, the odd 1 or 2 offenders gets arrested, but the vast majority of political discussion online is just endlessly toxic with no consequences for the companies who own them. 
And if it wasn't hate that drove this murder, it's probably some mental health problem gone horribly undiagnosed and not treated.

[Libertine]

Dreadful news. Awful for him and his family of course, but also a terrible day for UK politics and society.

Unfortunately an almost inevitable consequence of the increase in extremist rhetoric on all sides. You either believe in democracy and basic decency or you don't.

[B0151?]

Very depressing news

[JerseyKloppite]

Yeah it’s worked well the last 11 years like 

Not the day for stuff like this given what's happened.

[Sangria]

There's also the issue of the use of seriously underhand electioneering tactics, and using organisations like Cambridge Analytica to mould public opinion and inflame anger.

The Torie have always had the majority of the printed media on their side, now have the BBCs news editorial as a mouthpiece, and have mastered social media to exploit this resource as well. They've used the electoral position that this has given them to enact policy that is directly causing death and suffering.

They're the party that looks after the wealthy, the party whose number one aim is to perpetuate wealth/income disparity.

I can sort of understand people becoming so exasperated at how more and more odds are stacked in their favour - and every time a new organ for information comes along, the right-wing take control of it. It promotes a sense of helplessness.

It's not like the left is absent from social media.

The upsurge in violent language isn't solely a left or right thing. It's a social media thing, an echo chamber resulting from easy wide access to a wider community, algorithms ensuring that only those of a similar mindset will be linked, and reinforcing one's identity with language that said echo chamber appreciates.

I know that it's happened with the left here because that's the group that I'm most familiar with, but it's happened to an even greater degree with the right in the US. The common factors are those I listed above. The politics don't drive this, it's the social mechanisms.

[AndyMuller]

Not the day for stuff like this given what's happened.

Ok mate I’ll pack it in.

Obviously we don’t know why the person done it yet, but the press are hugely to blame for the intensity of hatred from both sides in this country.

[Yorkykopite]

Poor bloke, 5 kids too. RIP.

It's a dreadful day when an elected MP is murdered. Perhaps it's trite to say it is an attack on all of us, but that's the way I feel.

[Sangria]

Ok mate I’ll pack it in.

Obviously we don’t know why the person done it yet, but the press are hugely to blame for the intensity of hatred from both sides in this country.

I blame the press for trivialising and corrupting our democracy, but I blame social media for upping the degree of hatred.

[AndyMuller]

I blame the press for trivialising and corrupting our democracy, but I blame social media for upping the degree of hatred.

Yeah true actually, think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

[Zeb]

Everyone's trying to restate the basics, as they should.

Struck by what some of the Parliamentary staff are saying. (Deliberately not linking or naming the women here, both elected for Labour.) eg

Ultimately I left my last job because of the overwhelming death threats, I reported over 100 a week once. Usually was around 50 a week. All the police statements, the court cases, it was all just too much... It took a year in the run up to one of the trials. I used to have a reoccurring nightmare that my boss got stabbed at a surgery & I would jump in the way to stop it every night for almost 18 months. My thoughts are with Sir David’s staff and family right now

It's not sustainable to keep asking people to do it, or at least not ones you'd want to be making laws or doing the casework.

[Red Beret]

There's no suggestion at this stage to suggest it is, but have you considered the possibility of it being as Islamic terrorist?

That in itself is political. Killing a member of parliament is a political act. Sorry if I came across vague.

[Wabaloolah]

Saw earlier that he had been stabbed and now find out the poor fella has died at the scene.

Whatever your politics this is shocking.  Think this is the fourth MP killed that I remember in my lifetime, that excludes the bombing in Brighton in 1984 that nearly got Thatcher. (felt different about the Grand Hotel bombing at the time but I was a kid growing up in a mining community ravaged by her, feel differently now and see it as an attack on our democracy)

Aerie Neave
Ian Gow
Jo Cox
David Amess

Yes he was a Tory but he was first and foremost a human being and he was trying to help people at his surgery.  We can't keep putting our elected representatives at risk like this, something has to change

[pazcom]

Although he wasn't my local MP in Southend (I'm Southend East) he did represent the other part of Southend (west). Awful news.

RIP Sir David.

[ShatnersBassoon]

uk is getting like a third world country.

brexit/ phony "culture wars".... it all is just fueling people taking tribal sides and being completely incapable of compromise or empathy.

i'm glad i got out

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Dreadful, dreadful news.

Is there any news on what the motivation was for the coward who did this?

Were the others with them and are they OK?

[kennedy81]

Grim news. A decent man from what I've been reading.

[lobsterboy]

I think his point is not wishing death upon the politicians that you don’t like and instead working democratically for a better governance.

The system is specifically designed to prevent that. We don't have a constitution, the Queen can override any rule she likes (she just did) We have an unelected body sitting above parliament who have often bought their way into the role. Politicians and civil servants mainly come from the same higher echelons of the social strata and powerful lobbyists hold far more sway with our MPs than the constituents who elected them. RIP to the bloke, no one deserves that but his party and policies he voted for are directly responsible for the state of the UK now. The likes of Johnson, Mogg and the rest have more blood on their hands now, this time one of their own.

[Jm55]

The system is specifically designed to prevent that. We don't have a constitution, the Queen can override any rule she likes (she just did) We have an unelected body sitting above parliament who have often bought their way into the role. Politicians and civil servants mainly come from the same higher echelons of the social strata and powerful lobbyists hold far more sway with our MPs than the constituents who elected them. RIP to the bloke, no one deserves that but his party and policies he voted for are directly responsible for the state of the UK now. The likes of Johnson, Mogg and the rest have more blood on their hands now, this time one of their own

I don’t disagree with much of that mate (although we definitely do have a constitution just not a written one, I spent a year studying it) and nor does I suspect the original poster judging by the ‘disillusioned’ comment.

Ultimately though, any system to replace the existing one needs to be better and pointless murders of politicians that people dislike (however legitimate their reasons for doing so may be) is clearly not better than what we already have and is even less likely to lead to the kind of politically governed society that most of us want.

I don’t know what the answer is, but it blatantly isn’t this (not that I’m implying that you’re suggesting that it is, as I’m sure you’re not).

[So… Howard Philips]

Stephen Timms was lucky he wasn’t included amongst the list of deceased MPs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabbing_of_Stephen_Timms

[kennedy81]

uk is getting like a third world country.

brexit/ phony "culture wars".... it all is just fueling people taking tribal sides and being completely incapable of compromise or empathy.

i'm glad i got out

Social media only fuels the fire too and needs to be reigned in. The hatred of politicians from across the political spectrum on some of these sites is rampant.

[Commie Bobbie]

Social media only fuels the fire too and needs to be reigned in. The hatred of politicians from across the political spectrum on some of these sites is rampant.

No one, No one remains immune from criticism nor responsibility.

[lobsterboy]

I don’t disagree with much of that mate (although we definitely do have a constitution just not a written one, I spent a year studying it) and nor does I suspect the original poster judging by the ‘disillusioned’ comment.

Ultimately though, any system to replace the existing one needs to be better and pointless murders of politicians that people dislike (however legitimate their reasons for doing so may be) is clearly not better than what we already have and is even less likely to lead to the kind of politically governed society that most of us want.

I don’t know what the answer is, but it blatantly isn’t this (not that I’m implying that you’re suggesting that it is, as I’m sure you’re not).

I'm not saying he should have been murdered, its a terrible act but my sympathy lies more with the heart breaking state of the nation and as a conservative MP he has actively voted for policies that reduced us to this state.
Look at all the open corruption taking place since Johnson got in, snouts in the trough while the country bleeds and queues at food banks. People are going to get angry, especially with social media stirring things up. I think it will get worse and my fear is that'll be the excuse they need to push us into an autocracy.

[classycarra]

Dreadful news. Awful for him and his family of course, but also a terrible day for UK politics and society.

Unfortunately an almost inevitable consequence of the increase in extremist rhetoric on all sides. You either believe in democracy and basic decency or you don't.

Have just come home from the cinema to this news. Agree with you entirely.

 he's been murdered while doing his job trying to serve the public in our democracy.

It's absolutely terrible to hear, and I feel for all his loved ones that

[PeterJM]

Truly shocking! RIP

When incidents like this happen it certainly makes us think if humankind has stopped evolving and is now regressing.

[Commie Bobbie]

I'm not saying he should have been murdered, its a terrible act but my sympathy lies more with the heart breaking state of the nation and as a conservative MP he has actively voted for policies that reduced us to this state.
Look at all the open corruption taking place since Johnson got in, snouts in the trough while the country bleeds and queues at food banks. People are going to get angry, especially with social media stirring things up. I think it will get worse and my fear is that'll be the excuse they need to push us into an autocracy.

When elected politicians are getting assassinated then you have to wonder just where does it all end up.

We had the opportunity to learn lessons after the murder of Jo Cox, and if anything the electorate, media and politicians alike decided to just double down.

[Red Beret]

We still don't know the motive behind this. If it's just a random act of terrorism by a religiously motivated (or other form) extremist, then it likely could have been ANY MP who ended up as the victim.  The aim would have been for headlines, notoriety, to spread chaos and fear.

If, on the other hand, it's someone with a personal grudge, someone with a simmering hatred of all things Tory who has finally boiled over; a person who feels democracy has failed and has had enough of open corruption that our political leaders - especially those in government - don't even bother to hide anymore, well then, the discourse becomes much less straightforward.

There's no justification for murder, but the motive needs to be understood first and foremost. Whatever happens, the depressing reality will be that both sides ultimately try to make political capital out of this in some form, most likely in security clamp downs.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

We still don't know the motive behind this. If it's just a random act of terrorism by a religiously motivated (or other form) extremist, then it likely could have been ANY MP who ended up as the victim.  The aim would have been for headlines, notoriety, to spread chaos and fear.

If, on the other hand, it's someone with a personal grudge, someone with a simmering hatred of all things Tory who has finally boiled over; a person who feels democracy has failed and has had enough of open corruption that our political leaders - especially those in government - don't even bother to hide anymore, well then, the discourse becomes much less straightforward.

There's no justification for murder, but the motive needs to be understood first and foremost. Whatever happens, the depressing reality will be that both sides ultimately try to make political capital out of this in some form, most likely in security clamp downs.

What struck me, is that the man in custody is just 25-years old.

That shocked me.

[WhoHe]

The nutter who attacked Stephen Timms was 21.

[classycarra]

Yeah I would definitely expect people to be on the younger side, as you see with most radicalised terrorists

[lamad]

That in itself is political. Killing a member of parliament is a political act. Sorry if I came across vague.

Until more is known about who did it and why it is impossible to know the intent. But attacking a politician is not necessarily a political act. In 1990 conservative German politician Wolfgang Schäuble was the target of an assassination attempt. He was shot and severely injured, he survived, but has since been in a wheelchair (he served in Merkel's governments for many years). It happened at an event during election campaigning, later the attacker was found to be suffering from a mental illness and committed to a clinic dealing with forensic psychiatry.
That same year a mentally ill woman attacked the then Social Democratic candidate for German Chancellor, Oskar Lafontaine, with a knife, also at a public event. He was in critical condition for a few days, but made a full recovery. Both these assassination attempts were not politically motivated, but targeted political figures in the public sphere. After years of treatment the attackers were released in 2004 (Schäuble's case) and 2014 (Lafontaine). The man who attacked Schäuble has since issued an apology.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I'm never totally certain of reading between the lines of police statements but when they say that they are not looking for anybody else in connection with the attack doesn't that suggest that this may be something personal (e.g. family/relationship issue or aggrieved constituent) rather than an act of political extremism?

[kennedy81]

I'm never totally certain of reading between the lines of police statements but when they say that they are not looking for anybody else in connection with the attack doesn't that suggest that this may be something personal (e.g. family/relationship issue or aggrieved constituent) rather than an act of political extremism?

I take it simply as meaning they have the person who did it in custody, and they believe he acted alone.

Obviously they'll be following up on it and try to determine motive etc. as they build a case against them for prosecution.

[jillcwhomever]

I take it simply as meaning they have the person who did it in custody, and they believe he acted alone.

Obviously they'll be following up on it and try to determine motive etc. as they build a case against them for prosecution.

Yes, I would agree with that.

Either way its another dreadful day for democracy in this country and five poor children fatherless tonight, sympathy to his wife and family. It really makes you fear where we are going with all of this. RIP.