Topic: The War In Afghanistan

[Degs]

Yes, and there remain many other issues that need the attention of the appropriate authorities.

There was one other important issue I forgot to add: the palestine-Israeli conflict. That one needs a solution sooner rather than later if we are to have any hope in the coming year's of peace amongst all religions and moderates/radical muslims.

This seems to be the one issue which continues to unite both moderate and radical muslims and needs a person like Obama to draw a line and to say enough is enough and to find a solution that may not be a fantastic solution for both sides but, a solution that will allow the palestinians to finally have opportunities at statehood and being able to grow economically and a land they can call their own.

It has to happen or else I fear these problems with terrorist groups like AQ will just keep going on and on.

My solution is Jerusalem 2.
A replica Jerusalem on land reclaimed from the Dead sea.

I await my Nobel Prize.

(This is actually a better solution than what's going on at the minute  )

[Mad Men]

My solution is Jerusalem 2.
A replica Jerusalem on land reclaimed from the Dead sea.

I await my Nobel Prize.

(This is actually a better solution than what's going on at the minute  )

Don't wait too long. It won't be arriving in this life time.

Once we solve the question of lands and borders, the big stumbling block will be who owns Jerusalem. The Israeli's won't give it up, the Palestinians rightfully have historical and religious claims on it.....boy, it would seem we would need to make it another carbon copy of the vatican with a NATO force in place to ensure they don't start world war three.

Because we all know the UN won't be able to police it and both sides don't respect the UN's "policing record."

[kkhaku]

Yes, and there remain many other issues that need the attention of the appropriate authorities.

There was one other important issue I forgot to add: the palestine-Israeli conflict. That one needs a solution sooner rather than later if we are to have any hope in the coming year's of peace amongst all religions and moderates/radical muslims.

This seems to be the one issue which continues to unite both moderate and radical muslims and needs a person like Obama to draw a line and to say enough is enough and to find a solution that may not be a fantastic solution for both sides but, a solution that will allow the palestinians to finally have opportunities at statehood and being able to grow economically and a land they can call their own.

It has to happen or else I fear these problems with terrorist groups like AQ will just keep going on and on.

Terrorist groups like AQ have little if nothing to do with the Palestine-Israel conflict in particular.

That conflict is intertwined with the very existence of the people and their perceptions about who they are. The only way there will be prolonged peace will be if the PEOPLE themselves want it. Politicians on both sides, as well as external leaders can only either mildly fuel or calm the flames.

As for Obama intervening, you can forget about it. The US foreign policy stance on that conflict hasn't change, and won't change. They simply have too much at stake to risk endangering their alliance with Israel. You'd be amazed at how dependant the Israeli and US economies are on each other. The only thing that has changed is now you have a smooth operator in charge rather than Bush. The stance is now "We encourage peace, stability, and the preservation of human rights,...but we're not willing to do much about it."

Anyway, in terms of Afghanistan - a political analyst recently likened the operation to rolling a heavy stone up a hill, bit by bit, only of have it reach the peak and roll back down. While I respect what the alliance of forces is doing out there - I think its ultimately pointless unless intended to be a very long term operation...and I'm talking in the area of a decade. The terrorists that call themselves the Taliban will not go away - even if we do manage to somehow wipe out the insurgency, they will regroup and come back. It's in their nature.

[Mad Men]

Terrorist groups like AQ have little if nothing to do with the Palestine-Israel conflict in particular.

That conflict is intertwined with the very existence of the people and their perceptions about who they are. The only way there will be prolonged peace will be if the PEOPLE themselves want it. Politicians on both sides, as well as external leaders can only either mildly fuel or calm the flames.

As for Obama intervening, you can forget about it. The US foreign policy stance on that conflict hasn't change, and won't change. They simply have too much at stake to risk endangering their alliance with Israel. You'd be amazed at how dependant the Israeli and US economies are on each other. The only thing that has changed is now you have a smooth operator in charge rather than Bush. The stance is now "We encourage peace, stability, and the preservation of human rights,...but we're not willing to do much about it."

Anyway, in terms of Afghanistan - a political analyst recently likened the operation to rolling a heavy stone up a hill, bit by bit, only of have it reach the peak and roll back down. While I respect what the alliance of forces is doing out there - I think its ultimately pointless unless intended to be a very long term operation...and I'm talking in the area of a decade. The terrorists that call themselves the Taliban will not go away - even if we do manage to somehow wipe out the insurgency, they will regroup and come back. It's in their nature.

AQ has everything to do with the Palestine-Israel issue. AQ's very existence is in part inspired by the radical and fundamentalist egyptian Sayyid Qutb who's writings on the social obligations and the role of Islam back in the 50's when the Israel-Palestine Issue was at its hotest and his disapproval of American culture and materialistic who he blamed for many of the world's evils, using Jihad as a "defence of Islam" and justifying taking any and any measures needed to combat the spread of judeo-christian influences which affect/affected the arab world.

His role in a complementary methodology for interpreting the text of the Quaran also gave people like Osama Bin Laden justification in what he perceived as allah's approval to do what any good muslim should do against the infidel based on his version of what the quran preached.

His philosphies also include:

Rather than support rule by pious Muslim(s), (either a dictator(s) or democratically elected), Muslims should resist any system where men are in "servitude to other men" — i.e. obey other men — as un-Islamic and a violation of God's sovereignty over all of creation. A truly Islamic polity would have no rulers — not even have theocratic ones - since Muslims would need neither judges nor police to obey divine law. It was what one observer has called "a kind of anarcho-Islam."

The vanguard movement would grow with preaching and jihad until it formed a truly Islamic community, then spread throughout the Islamic homeland and finally throughout the entire world, attaining leadership of humanity. While those who had been "defeated by the attacks of the treacherous Orientalists!" might define jihad "narrowly" as defensive, Islamically-correct Jihad (according to Qutb) was in fact offensive.

A book worth reading if you can get a hold of an english translated version is In the Shade of the Quran and another  book called Milestones which does give you an idea of what inspired AQ and brought about the rise of Osama Bin Ladin's ideological, social, political and religious beliefs.

After his death, his brother apparently lectured in Saudi and inspired a young student named Ayman Zawahiri, using Qutb's work as his inspiration to spread more islamic fundamentalist teachings. Incidently, Zawahiri would later become Osama's mentor and the founder of AQ.

AQ openly supports and encourages International Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders (Maktab Al-Khidmat) which is an indonesian foundation that recruits, trains, raises funding through charity drives in Indonesia, the middle east and in some western countries and who's aim is to rid the world of western backed islamic governments and western democracy's.

Unless you understand the beast, its very hard to understand why we are in Afghanistan.

Pulling out of Afghanistan gives them a base of operations and a major moral victory that will incite more freedom fighters to join their cause because they know the west can be defeated and Islam and Allah does reward the marty's and those who stand up for Islam.

[GIRed]

GIRed, did you have a bad experience with allies forces?  It seems you have strong views on any non-US forces.

Not at all. I have full confidence in my UK, Aussie, and Canadian allies. I have repeatedly stated the soldiers of those nations are among the best in the world. What I dont have confidence in is their civilian government foreign policy. Its letting down their own militaries and the "NATO" war effort.

As a matter of fact Australia has been involved in every US war in the 20th century. Really, the Aussies are our most reliable allies. The UK missing out on Vietnam, Id have to say they thave to take a seat behind the Aussies. Not that it was the right or wrong thing to do.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

As a matter of fact Australia has been involved in every US war in the 20th century. Really, the Aussies are our most reliable allies. The UK missing out on Vietnam, Id have to say they thave to take a seat behind the Aussies. Not that it was the right or wrong thing to do.

Cues gag about turning up on time...

Gets coat.

[Degs]

Not that it was the right or wrong thing to do.

Seriously?
You can't work it out?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

It's not really a foreign policy decision though is it.  It's something more fundamental that goes to the core of what we as nations think our money should be spent on. Here is defence spending as a proportion of GDP:

Israel 7.30% 
China 4.30% 
United States 4.06% 
Russia 3.90% 
France 2.60%
United Kingdom 2.40% 
Netherlands 1.60%
Sweden 1.50%
Germany 1.50% 
Denmark 1.30% 
Belgium 1.30%
Canada 1.10% 
Ireland 0.90%
Iceland 0.00%
 
It always fascinates me that you Americans with your fear of big government and government spending continue to sit back and watch your economy disintegrate as your goverment spunks huge sums on the military. 

[Degs]

It's not really a foreign policy decision though is it.  It's something more fundamental that goes to the core of what we as nations think our money should be spent on. Here is defence spending as a proportion of GDP:

Israel 7.30% 
China 4.30% 
United States 4.06% 
Russia 3.90% 
France 2.60%
United Kingdom 2.40% 
Netherlands 1.60%
Sweden 1.50%
Germany 1.50% 
Denmark 1.30% 
Belgium 1.30%
Canada 1.10% 
Ireland 0.90%
Iceland 0.00%
 
It always fascinates me that you Americans with your fear of big government and government spending continue to sit back and watch your economy disintegrate as your goverment spunks huge sums on the military. 

The scary thing about those figures is that you see how much Israel is stuck in the military industrial complex.

I said it the last time they had a jolly in Palestine and was laughed out of the thread, I wish I had those figures then, as soon as the world economy took a nosedive you can spot the tanks massing at the border.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

In fairness Israel's geo-political situation demands a high spend on defence. Anything else would be totally remiss of their governments responsibility to safeguard the security of their citizens.  It is notable that many other countries in the region have even higher percentage spends.

Similar other countries which see themselves as threatened; Armenia, Georgia also have very high spends.

[GBF]

Iceland 0.00%
 

tight bastard....are they in afghanistan for a tan?

[Degs]

In fairness Israel's geo-political situation demands a high spend on defence. Anything else would be totally remiss of their governments responsibility to safeguard the security of their citizens.  It is notable that many other countries in the region have even higher percentage spends.

Similar other countries which see themselves as threatened; Armenia, Georgia also have very high spends.

When their economy needs a shot in the arm though they'll just roll out the tanks, whereas our government tries to encourage the car industry to produce/sell more cars through a scrappage incentive the Israeli's are doing the same with their white phosphorous missiles.

[GBF]

When their economy needs a shot in the arm though they'll just roll out the tanks, whereas our government tries to encourage the car industry to produce/sell more cars through a scrappage incentive the Israeli's are doing the same with their white phosphorous missiles.

different ways, same objectives....

[kesey]

I didn't want the casualties thread derailed, so I thought I'd ask my questions in here :

1) Why are the Taliban still a force in Afghanistan, 8 years after coaliton troops went in ?.

Because it gives our leaders an excuse to still be there. Probably for the push on Iran or exporting opuim.

[Mad Men]

Because it gives our leaders an excuse to still be there. Probably for the push on Iran or exporting opuim.

Because the americans took the foot off the pedal when Dick Cheney decided oil was the top of his wish list for himself and his cronies and Iraq had too much oil that shouldn't have gone to waste...

The war effort basically went from 4th gear down to 1st gear in the space of 5 months back in 02-03 and hasn't been back up to 4th till only recently. Can't win a war when you're not half arsed to want to win it in the first place.

British Politicians....PLEASE TAKE NOTE.

[kesey]

Why are we in afghanistan?

1) 911
2) 7/7

No offence mate but.

 

[Mad Men]

No offence mate but.

 

Didn't I tell you to stop eating at McNasty's!?!

[LF]

Pulling out of Afghanistan gives them a base of operations and a major moral victory that will incite more freedom fighters to join their cause because they know the west can be defeated and Islam and Allah does reward the marty's and those who stand up for Islam.

That's exactly what I've been saying all the time to people. Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. The Jihadi propaganda is stronger than anything the Americans can pull out and will give terrorists all over the world renewed fighting spirit. In India various militants ( not necessarily Islamic) from time to time have given up, surrendered arms and themselves to the police force. We can only speculate why but the important thing is that militants do and can give up the violent route.

America pulling out of their war on terrorism will be a major symbolic victory to all the militants in the world be it Islamic or others. "If we can beat Americans" why not India? or Pakistan? It goes a long way of raising their faith and it is on faith many of the militants fight on.

If Afghanistan fall to Taliban, the battlefield will just shift to Pakistan. When and if Pakistan falls to their own Taliban it's just shifting gears again and spreading terror in Kashmir on unimaginable levels from before.

Terrorism is just not America's or Britain's problem, it's a world wide thing. How Obama handles it will have effect many more countries and it's important he handles it carefully. People should understand a whole lot more is at stake in Afghanistan than the stupid conspiracy theory of taking over middle-east oil. What America does, as always will effect the world but this one is the shit.

[Mad Men]

In fairness Israel's geo-political situation demands a high spend on defence. Anything else would be totally remiss of their governments responsibility to safeguard the security of their citizens.  It is notable that many other countries in the region have even higher percentage spends.

Similar other countries which see themselves as threatened; Armenia, Georgia also have very high spends.

Yes, agreed. They have a full on army AND compulsory military service and spend a hell of a lot on technology and research for future weapons so I am not surprised.

They do have a top notch army with outstanding training facilities and equipment to match.

[TipTopKop]

Soldier Tells Of Surviving Afghan Blast

A soldier who survived a bomb blast in Afghanistan says the camaraderie of a battalion is the key to getting on with the job.
Sky News
 
Corporal David Lynch from the 2nd Royal Welsh was knocked unconscious by an improvised explosive device (IED) near Musa Qalah in Helmand province.

The father-of-three was in an armoured infantry Warrior personnel carrier when the homemade bomb exploded.

"It's dizzying. When I came to and before I knew it the boys were around me sorting me out," he said.

"There were no fatalities in that incident."

July has been the bloodiest month for British forces in Afghanistan since the mission began in October 2001.

Twenty-two troops were killed, including 18-year-old Rifleman William Aldridge - the youngest British soldier to die in Afghanistan.

Cpl Lynch, whose tour of duty began in February and is due home soon, said maintaining morale is important.

"Bad things do obviously happen but you've got to concentrate on doing your job," he said.

"Being a bit older than some of the lads they need someone to look up to and if they see I'm scared they'll be scared.

"It definitely helps being a Scouser and having some cheeky banter.

"When you're down they're there to help you out.

"They're not scared to give you a shoulder to cry on... These guys will help you with anything.

"They're not embarrassed to see tears in someone's eyes."

The 31-year-old has previously served in Iraq and Kosovo and added it was hard being so far from home.

"I miss my wife and kids so much, obviously," he said.

"But the football's been heartbreaking, missing what's going on and how the Reds are doing.

"Fortunately, mum sends me copies of the Liverpool Echo and I love reading it to see what's been going on."
Legend. Hope he comes home soon and safe as well.

[potatomato33]

I guess they don't have internet to watch footy games on dodgy streams in Afghanistan huh

[Mad Men]

I guess they don't have internet to watch footy games on dodgy streams in Afghanistan huh

We do actually especially at Bagram and other key installations. You would be surprised how fast the speeds are.

And the americans also have pizza hut, burger king and more!

Anyways, this war will in time prove not only to be a war against terrorism, but also political ideology; the hardcore fundamentalist want to do away with democracy and impose their own religious laws.

[GBF]

I guess they don't have internet to watch footy games on dodgy streams in Afghanistan huh

I spoke to 2 guys in a pub once and they said they have better internet connections in their camp than their 8mb connections at home in England.

[GIRed]

Somebody special..the pogs and the REMFs have BK and pizza hut...won't find that in the korengal.

[kesey]

Bollocks to the lot of it.

[Mad Men]

Somebody special..the pogs and the REMFs have BK and pizza hut...won't find that in the korengal.

Party pooper!

[GIRed]

Yes, agreed. They have a full on army AND compulsory military service and spend a hell of a lot on technology and research for future weapons so I am not surprised.

They do have a top notch army with outstanding training facilities and equipment to match.

espionage *cough cough*......i mean yeah..research..our dear Israeli friends could never do that agaiinst its friends. 

[potatomato33]

We do actually especially at Bagram and other key installations. You would be surprised how fast the speeds are.

And the americans also have pizza hut, burger king and more!

Great news. I'll be sure to base my patrols around footy

[lurganboy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/there-is-no-refuge-no-place-to-go-to-deal-with-your-grief-1769938.html

Should be read any anyone who cares about what is happening in this conflict.

[TipTopKop]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/there-is-no-refuge-no-place-to-go-to-deal-with-your-grief-1769938.html

Should be read any anyone who cares about what is happening in this conflict.

That was a punishing read. If this piece was truly written by an officer (and thus it is somewhat of an indication as to troop morale/thought pattern), then some big questions need to be asked.

[Canada Loves Anfield]

Afghanistan passes 'barbaric' law diminishing women's rights

Rehashed legislation allows husbands to deny wives food if they fail to obey sexual demands

    * Jon Boone in Kandahar
    * guardian.co.uk, Friday 14 August 2009 14.17 BST

Afghanistan has quietly passed a law permitting Shia men to deny their wives food and sustenance if they refuse to obey their husbands' sexual demands, despite international outrage over an earlier version of the legislation which President Hamid Karzai had promised to review.

The new final draft of the legislation also grants guardianship of children exclusively to their fathers and grandfathers, and requires women to get permission from their husbands to work.

"It also effectively allows a rapist to avoid prosecution by paying 'blood money' to a girl who was injured when he raped her," the US charity Human Rights Watch said.

In early April, Barack Obama and Gordon Brown joined an international chorus of condemnation when the Guardian revealed that the earlier version of the law legalised rape within marriage, according to the UN.

Although Karzai appeared to back down, activists say the revised version of the law still contains repressive measures and contradicts the Afghan constitution and international treaties signed by the country.

Islamic law experts and human rights activists say that although the language of the original law has been changed, many of the provisions that alarmed women's rights groups remain, including this one: "Tamkeen is the readiness of the wife to submit to her husband's reasonable sexual enjoyment, and her prohibition from going out of the house, except in extreme circumstances, without her husband's permission. If any of the above provisions are not followed by the wife she is considered disobedient."

The law has been backed by the hardline Shia cleric Ayatollah Mohseni, who is thought to have influence over the voting intentions of some of the country's Shias, which make up around 20% of the population. Karzai has assiduously courted such minority leaders in the run up to next Thursday's election, which is likely to be a close run thing, according to a poll released yesterday.

Human Rights Watch, which has obtained a copy of the final law, called on all candidates to pledge to repeal the law, which it says contradicts Afghanistan's own constitution.

The group said that Karzai had "made an unthinkable deal to sell Afghan women out in the support of fundamentalists in the August 20 election".

Brad Adams, the organisation's Asia director, said: "The rights of Afghan women are being ripped up by powerful men who are using women as pawns in manoeuvres to gain power.

"These kinds of barbaric laws were supposed to have been relegated to the past with the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001, yet Karzai has revived them and given them his official stamp of approval."

The latest opinion poll by US democracy group the International Republican Institute showed that although Karzai was up 13 points to 44% since the last survey in May, his closest rival, Abdullah Abdullah, had soared from 7% to 26%.

If those numbers prove accurate, it would mean the contest would have to go to a second round run-off vote in early October. In that scenario, 50% of voters said they would vote for Karzai and 29% for Abdullah.

The survey was conducted in mid to late July, so it is not known whether Abdullah has made further gains on Karzai.

He could further increase his chance of victory by joining forces with Ashraf Ghani, the former finance minister who is also running on a platform fiercely critical of Karzai.

Fifty-eight per cent of the 2,400 people polled by IRI said they would like to see an alliance between Abdullah and Ghani, who is polling in fourth place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/14/afghanistan-womens-rights-rape

[Commie Bobbie]

Elections are being held across Afghanistan today as people choose the next president, (as if they are going to be free and fair, of course).  It does seem that the Taliban are doing their utmost to scare people away from voting.

One method mentioned was cutting off the finger in which the ink, which indicates whether you have voted or not.

[GBF]

Lets see who will be america's puppet this time.  Dont think they fancy Karzai anymore

[TipTopKop]

Beeb News
Gordon Brown apologises over condolence letters

The prime minister has apologised "unreservedly" to families for delays in sending condolence letters after they lost loved ones in Afghanistan.

It comes after the father of Pte Jack Sadler, 21, of Exmouth, Devon, complained his letter had arrived two years after his son's 2007 death.

Downing Street has admitted two other families were not sent letters in 2007.

Officials are conducting a review to determine whether other letters failed to go out in 2008 and 2009.

The prime minister said it had been an "unacceptable error" for letters not to be sent and he "apologised unreservedly".
I'm not Gordon Brown's biggest fan, but does anyone else think these letter writing sagas have gone a bit too far ? what now, the Prime Minister has to leave everything else and concentrate on sending letters to bereaved families ?.

The private's father says :

I have a letter apologising, not from the prime minister, but from Jeremy Heywood who is his permanent secretary, apologising that an administrative mistake resulted in my not receiving a letter from the prime minister.

It's not good is it? Nearly two years later and the PM hasn't apologised, just his aide.

It goes to show what this present administration thinks of our soldiers.

Now, firstly I don't know at what point it became an obligation for a PM to write a letter of apology to every family, I'd imagine Winston Churchill must still be writing letters from beyond the grave if that was the case.

The man has suffered a loss, all condolences to him, but his son signed up to the military as an adult, willingly, and that means going into wars -some (most) of which- may well be unpopular. Blame the MoD for misspelling "Trooper" or mixing up a badge by all means, but going after the Prime Minister smells of political motivation at work, no doubt with that bastard Murdoch pulling the strings.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Three explosions at a funeral for a politician's son today.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/u0OpuUJKAQo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/u0OpuUJKAQo</a>

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Heartbreaking.   

https://www.twitter.com/sahrmally/status/1260194437579313152

Sahr Muhammedally     @Sahrmally
What kind of a world do we live in where a maternity hospital in #Kabul is attacked? New borns have died. No words really.


Bill Neely    @BillNeelyNBC
BREAKING: Around a dozen dead including nurses, mothers & 2 new born babies in an attack on a maternity hospital in Kabul, Afghanistan. How did the killers prepare for this? What did they think as they shot babies? What policy will it change? What followers did they win?

[OOS]

Heartbreaking.   

https://www.twitter.com/sahrmally/status/1260194437579313152

Sahr Muhammedally     @Sahrmally
What kind of a world do we live in where a maternity hospital in #Kabul is attacked? New borns have died. No words really.


Bill Neely    @BillNeelyNBC
BREAKING: Around a dozen dead including nurses, mothers & 2 new born babies in an attack on a maternity hospital in Kabul, Afghanistan. How did the killers prepare for this? What did they think as they shot babies? What policy will it change? What followers did they win?

Heartbreaking.

Gunmen attacked a hospital that houses a maternity clinic in Kabul on Tuesday, killing at least 16 people including two newborn babies, and a suicide bomber killed at least 24 others at a funeral on a morning of double tragedy for Afghanistan.

The Taliban said they were not responsible for either attack. The hospital was based in a Shia area.

[A-Bomb]

What a legacy....

BBC News - Afghanistan: Fighting rages as Taliban besiege three key cities
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58040141

[TepidT2O]

What a legacy....

BBC News - Afghanistan: Fighting rages as Taliban besiege three key cities
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58040141

The Taliban ruled before the invasion too.  Brutal, sick murdering bastards

Nothing has changed it seems

[Nobby Reserve]

The Taliban ruled before the invasion too.  Brutal, sick murdering bastards

Nothing has changed it seems

The bastard lovechild of the House of Saud and Uncle Sam.

The brilliant and immeasurably brave Malalai Joya got it right IMO - the US totally messed-up the after-invasion part. Instead of eradicating the scourge of oppressive medievalism that was represented by the twin-evils of the Taliban and the tribal/feudal system, the US invited warlords/tribal leaders to form the government.

Totally corrupt, murderous, zealous and self-interested scum who had been part of the savage regimes that brutally subjugated Afghan citizens - women especially - were not only allowed to remain living, but given positions of power in government by Washington.

The result would always be either the US/NATO remains in Afghanistan ad infinitum, or they leave and the scum recommence their attempts to take total control.

The priorities of the US - if it had any notion of wanting to bring democracy and some kind of longer term stability - should have been to 1) eradicate the feudal system that heartbreakingly still persists outside of urban areas; and 2) use education to reduce the power of the sky-fairy bullshit that is Islam.

Whilst the feudal overlords/tribal 'leaders' and Imams have control over the rural masses, Afghanis will never be free to live liberal lives.