Author Topic: Anfield Road Redevelopment  (Read 307444 times)

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #680 on: February 17, 2018, 07:56:59 am »
The long payback would suggest they’re keeping ticket prices low. The ARE makes sense as an improvement in atmosphere not maximising revenue.

There aren’t any corporate seats as such - there’s blocks that get sold with off-site hospitality and that could continue.

Whatever they're called they're still £145 and more and I can't see the club turning them away. The atmosphere might improve but it's the money that matters. A longer payback is more expensive, not less - more interest to pay.

I was going to say, at 20 years it might be because LFC itself is securing the financing, rather than FSG getting a preferential loan deal.  But if it's true the payback will be more on a par with the Main Stand, then am I right guessing it's likely increased revenue freed up from paying that off will be directed towards the Anfield Road?

Whatever the outcome it looks good for us.  I have a sneaking suspicion ground redevelopment wont stop here, although we might have to wait a bit to see any more.  But hey, 10 years with a 62k plus stadium will suit me just fine.  ;D

Normally yes but this is football... as long as the revenue continues, paying the MS back quickly means a happier lender and debt-free income sooner. The club wouldn't want to turn that debt-free income over to pay for the debt on the ARE.

I did always say that whatever is built for each stand should be built to the maximum to avoid being locked into a physical cap on capacity/ have to go back and re-do something - to always have an eye for the future.

My only disappointment in that respect is the corners, where the new stands have been built so far into them, it's probably not worth infilling the corner for the relatively small numbers you'd now get. But then I suspect somebody with an abacus has worked out that balance of cost and benefit... infilling corners would not be cheap.

Redeveloping the Centenary/KD stand would be a massive decision as the Upper is at the maximum angle - you can't add a third tier (an example of not looking to the future). So a total re-build likely and demolition of relatively newly refurbished houses. Still. Maybe. One day.

As for the Kop, much as everyone would love it, I can't quite see it getting much bigger going back. You could maybe add some rows at the back/ infill the corners but at huge cost per seat and compromise to WBR and the properties there, particularly when the real option could be to add 10,000 safe standing - at which point you might be looking at a 72,000 stadium.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:46:08 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Macred

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #681 on: February 17, 2018, 08:46:22 am »
ARE normal price is what £47?  £47x7000= £329,000 x 27 games = £8,883,000 - so call it £9,000,000 per year.  So build cost are now said to be between £40m and £45m.... either way paid off in 5 years which is the same time line for the main stand and likely the improved training ground when that finds a sponsor + money from Melwood sale

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #682 on: February 17, 2018, 09:03:42 am »
Not much else to tell.  Two tiers, no current plans to fill the corners in, capacity closer to 62000, won’t quite be as tall as the main stand, hope to open in 2020 but more likely 2021.   Nothing much to what said last week.
So basically..... . Same as the plans submitted for outline planning permission......?



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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #683 on: February 17, 2018, 09:14:06 am »
Those plans only took it to around 58k. Now it’s closer to 62k.

Something I always said I thought would happen.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #684 on: February 17, 2018, 09:26:21 am »
Great news.
With the main Stand, the ARE, the new training ground we are making progress off the pitch as well as on it.

Guessing that the new ARE will continue to have hospitality, but focussed on the offsite offerings as is the case now.
It'll help with the payback and make the build cheaper with no risk of unused facilities.

Not that it ultimately matters, but it would be interesting to know the decision making process on this one. Would be good to think that it has had something to do with getting more younger fans into the ground though. Less tangible than the main stand perhaps, but just as important for the long term health of the club.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #685 on: February 17, 2018, 10:04:21 am »
Whatever they're called they're still £145 and more and I can't see the club turning them away. The atmosphere might improve but it's the money that matters. A longer payback is more expensive, not less - more interest to pay.

Normally yes but this is football... as long as the revenue continues, paying the MS back quickly means a happier lender and debt-free income sooner. The club wouldn't want to turn that debt-free income over to pay for the debt on the ARE.

I did always say that whatever is built for each stand should be built to the maximum to avoid being locked into a physical cap on capacity/ have to go back and re-do something - to always have an eye for the future.

My only disappointment in that respect is the corners, where the new stands have been built so far into them, it's probably not worth infilling the corner for the relatively small numbers you'd now get. But then I suspect somebody with an abacus has worked out that balance of cost and benefit... infilling corners would not be cheap.

Redeveloping the Centenary/KD stand would be a massive decision as the Upper is at the maximum angle - you can't add a third tier (an example of not looking to the future). So a total re-build likely and demolition of relatively newly refurbished houses. Still. Maybe. One day.

As for the Kop, much as everyone would love it, I can't quite see it getting much bigger going back. You could maybe add some rows at the back/ infill the corners but at huge cost per seat and compromise to WBR and the properties there, particularly when the real option could be to add 10,000 safe standing - at which point you might be looking at a 72,000 stadium.
Hi Peter, great as always. With regards to the KD stand...... could they not continue the upper tier up to the height of the Main and new ARE. They could build this extension at the rear of the stand as they did with the Main and finish in the same design/look as the other 2 stands.
I would imagine the main additional costs would be buying up the properties behind again (as these have been refurbished) and the new roof.
So disappointed the club didn’t take advantage of the area behind the Kop when they could. The Kop is rapidly being drawfed by the rest of Anfield and other grounds around the country/world

Offline Macred

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #686 on: February 17, 2018, 10:39:16 am »
Hi Peter, great as always. With regards to the KD stand...... could they not continue the upper tier up to the height of the Main and new ARE. They could build this extension at the rear of the stand as they did with the Main and finish in the same design/look as the other 2 stands.
I would imagine the main additional costs would be buying up the properties behind again (as these have been refurbished) and the new roof.
So disappointed the club didn’t take advantage of the area behind the Kop when they could. The Kop is rapidly being drawfed by the rest of Anfield and other grounds around the country/world

The problem of the road/houses behind the KK is not the cost it is the political fall out given what has happened before. The houses on those road go for what, £70k to £80k (even in their refurbished state), there are about 20 houses on each row... so £1.6m per row, you would need both side of Skerries Rd and one side of Wylva so call it £5m all in. Hardly breaking the bank these days and IF they can see the additonal corp, then can easily absorb that in the overall economic plan. Politics is a greater barrier to that happening. Huge mistake selling the properties when we had them.

I presume, allowing for inflation, costs could be saved against the cost of the original main in that the major design narrative is simply following the new Main so cheaper to design as not starting from scratch and you already know that planning agrees the general look so no toing and froing...  ideally a mirror image of the Main would look fantastic as someone mocked up on here once. Further savings presumably as no changing rooms to fit out, medical areas etc, media facilities... albeit they could have the 2 tv studios facing the pitch per UEFA guides and free up the corners, ditto the police control could be integrated, and generate extra capacity at each end, a few of the floors on the lower internal space could be given over to parking (at a relatively cheap cost of fit out. Maybe less of the high top endcorporate and more servicing of the Thomas Cook set or local lower level SME type corp, freeing the Kop and Annie for the more flexible pricing, youngsters, local and people who want to stand.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:10:23 am by Macred »

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #687 on: February 17, 2018, 10:44:14 am »
The problem of the road/houses behind the KK is not the cost it is the political fall out given what has happened before. The houses on those road go for what £70k to £80k (even in their refurbished state), there are about 20 houses on each row... so £1.6m per row, you would need both side of Skerries Rd and one side of Wylva so call it £5m all in. Hardly breaking the bank these days and IF they can see the additonal corp, then can easily absorb that in the overall economic plan. Politics is a greater barrier to that happening. Huge mistake selling the properties when we had them.

The problem is there is zero chance all decide to sell for market price, or even sell at all. The Centenary was delayed for years due to this exact problem.

Offline Macred

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #688 on: February 17, 2018, 11:34:49 am »
The problem is there is zero chance all decide to sell for market price, or even sell at all. The Centenary was delayed for years due to this exact problem.

I get that, but there are houses for sale now. You set up, as they did previously, a shell company, but instead of letting them go to ruin, you rent them out while you negotiate with others. But the political landscape has changed now i.e. the council are more than ready to use CPOs which they were not in the past. I beleive that they are being used on the Walton Breck Road where the new shops are going.  If the political will is there it can happen. But they are years off anything like that, still prevaricating over the ARE but equally, no point waiting until they want to do it, they need to think about what is required 10 years from now... like with Walton Breck Road but it looks like the boat has sailed, another opportunity missed.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #689 on: February 17, 2018, 11:45:38 am »
I get that, but there are houses for sale now. You set up, as they did previously, a shell company, but instead of letting them go to ruin, you rent them out while you negotiate with others. But the political landscape has changed now i.e. the council are more than ready to use CPOs which they were not in the past. I beleive that they are being used on the Walton Breck Road where the new shops are going.  If the political will is there it can happen. But they are years off anything like that, still prevaricating over the ARE but equally, no point waiting until they want to do it, they need to think about what is required 10 years from now... like with Walton Breck Road but it looks like the boat has sailed, another opportunity missed.

The council was willing to use CPOs on houses which were on roads where the vast majority of the housing were boarded up and beyond repair (through the actions of the club, the council, various housing associations and also private individuals, before someone jumps in here to derail) and were preventing the wider area being improved.

They've shown no willing to my knowledge to use CPOs to enable good housing, down a street of equally good housing, to be purchased and knocked down to help a football club expand its stadium.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #690 on: February 17, 2018, 12:01:26 pm »
The council was willing to use CPOs on houses which were on roads where the vast majority of the housing were boarded up and beyond repair (through the actions of the club, the council, various housing associations and also private individuals, before someone jumps in here to derail) and were preventing the wider area being improved.

They've shown no willing to my knowledge to use CPOs to enable good housing, down a street of equally good housing, to be purchased and knocked down to help a football club expand its stadium.

Like I say, we missed the boat and the politics would be a bigger obstacle than the money.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #691 on: February 17, 2018, 03:15:59 pm »
Hi Peter, great as always. With regards to the KD stand...... could they not continue the upper tier up to the height of the Main and new ARE. They could build this extension at the rear of the stand as they did with the Main and finish in the same design/look as the other 2 stands.
I would imagine the main additional costs would be buying up the properties behind again (as these have been refurbished) and the new roof.
So disappointed the club didn’t take advantage of the area behind the Kop when they could. The Kop is rapidly being drawfed by the rest of Anfield and other grounds around the country/world

Another tier added would be too steep, so a complete rebuild from at least the Lower upwards.


Still, every now and then it's nice to dream....

« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 05:16:48 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #692 on: February 18, 2018, 12:45:12 pm »
while on the subject, who did they get to design the KD stand expansion when it was done?

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #693 on: February 18, 2018, 02:40:54 pm »
while on the subject, who did they get to design the KD stand expansion when it was done?

I've no idea but generally speaking you get what you ask for. If nobody asked for a future-proofed design for another x thousand, you don't get it.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #694 on: February 18, 2018, 02:50:50 pm »
I've no idea but generally speaking you get what you ask for. If nobody asked for a future-proofed design for another x thousand, you don't get it.

That's Moores and Parry for you.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #695 on: February 18, 2018, 11:19:59 pm »
That's Moores and Parry for you.

To be fair, it may have not been physically possible, they already had enough stick from residents and maybe no-one had the resources. Also as I understand it, the whole thing was pretty much a gift from David Moores in the first place.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #696 on: February 19, 2018, 06:30:22 am »

Very old picture

No chance of that stand (KD Stand)  being redeveloped anytime soon with all them houses being occupied
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 06:32:35 am by LiamG »

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #697 on: February 19, 2018, 06:39:01 am »
Those plans only took it to around 58k. Now it’s closer to 62k.

Something I always said I thought would happen.
Actually looking at those original drawings for the ARE stand, the top of the upper tier seating looks about the same as the main stand although the roof frontage is noticeably less high. So I’m wondering where the extra 4K seats have come from :-/


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Offline Cork Red

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #698 on: February 19, 2018, 02:00:51 pm »
To be fair, it may have not been physically possible, they already had enough stick from residents and maybe no-one had the resources. Also as I understand it, the whole thing was pretty much a gift from David Moores in the first place.

It was arguably the most impressive stand in the country when it was built, apart maybe from the new two-tier stand at Elland Road.  In 1991/92 I don't think it was possible to envisage the financial growth of the premier league.  Even the original design for the Old Trafford redevelopment was for a single tier bowl with a 45,000 capacity.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #699 on: February 21, 2018, 01:42:02 pm »
Might be making this up but did we used to own the houses in Skerries Road and we sold them after building the Centenary stand?

A 'friend' of a 'friend' told me.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #700 on: February 21, 2018, 02:14:22 pm »
Might be making this up but did we used to own the houses in Skerries Road and we sold them after building the Centenary stand?

A 'friend' of a 'friend' told me.

Yep. Sold them for £1 under the condition they were refurbed.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #701 on: February 21, 2018, 02:16:36 pm »
You've just confirmed my worst fears. I left the £1 bit out at the risk of sounding completely off my head.

Good old Liverpool eh

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #702 on: February 21, 2018, 02:21:18 pm »
You've just confirmed my worst fears. I left the £1 bit out at the risk of sounding completely off my head.

Good old Liverpool eh

Yeah was a bit crazy by the club, although it did allow some decent housing stock to be refurbed and returned to the market, and I think was meant to be an example for others in the area.

The club maybe should have done that themselves and let them out at a reasonable rate. However, Parry...

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #703 on: February 21, 2018, 02:31:37 pm »
Might be making this up but did we used to own the houses in Skerries Road and we sold them after building the Centenary stand?

A 'friend' of a 'friend' told me.
Another fuck up to add to many more under the Laurel & Hardy leadership of Moores and Parry.

All 3 of the stands of The Kop,Centenary and Anfield road abomination of a stand could have been so much bigger and better if they were not so half arsed,They should have been ruthless buying those properties around the stadium and pressuring the council,Spurs were just that to get land for their new stadium.Seems M&P only did things in halves when they were running our club,while our biggest rivals at United they were doing things on and off the pitch commercially and stadium wise bigger and better and M&P couldn't even notice what was going on. ::) :butt >:(

« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:43:27 pm by RedSince86 »
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #704 on: February 21, 2018, 03:04:02 pm »
Another fuck up to add to many more under the Laurel & Hardy leadership of Moores and Parry.

All 3 of the stands of The Kop,Centenary and Anfield road abomination of a stand could have been so much bigger and better if they were not so half arsed,They should have been ruthless buying those properties around the stadium and pressuring the council,Spurs were just that to get land for their new stadium.Seems M&P only did things in halves when they were running our club,while our biggest rivals at United they were doing things on and off the pitch commercially and stadium wise bigger and better and M&P couldn't even notice what was going on. ::) :butt >:(



You've got to remember this was the late 80's, football wasn't the monster it is now and there was never any idea it would be. Our average attendance in 1988 was less than 39,000 and that was when we were playing some of the best football I've seen us play. Commercially though, we were fucking clueless.
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #705 on: February 21, 2018, 04:15:12 pm »
You've got to remember this was the late 80's, football wasn't the monster it is now and there was never any idea it would be. Our average attendance in 1988 was less than 39,000 and that was when we were playing some of the best football I've seen us play. Commercially though, we were fucking clueless.
That's true, I was trying to find a record of a morning kick off on Grand National Day in the 80's a few days back. Some of the crowds in the early 80's were low. Late 20's for midweek league games. 30-36 for Saturdays. Sub 20 for early Europe and league Cup.
Easy to forget how much the economy of the time as well as football being a bit unfashionable affected crowds, not just for us but around the country too.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #706 on: February 21, 2018, 05:01:11 pm »
That's true, I was trying to find a record of a morning kick off on Grand National Day in the 80's a few days back. Some of the crowds in the early 80's were low. Late 20's for midweek league games. 30-36 for Saturdays. Sub 20 for early Europe and league Cup.
Easy to forget how much the economy of the time as well as football being a bit unfashionable affected crowds, not just for us but around the country too.

That rings a bell, I'm sure I remember going the match on Grand National day and it being an early kick off.

Under Souness, I remember paying on the gate to get in the Centenary upper, you got given a match ticket at the turnstile so you knew which seat to sit in.

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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #707 on: February 22, 2018, 12:17:38 am »
You've just confirmed my worst fears. I left the £1 bit out at the risk of sounding completely off my head.

Good old Liverpool eh

It was a Council scheme.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #708 on: February 22, 2018, 11:23:38 am »
Those plans only took it to around 58k. Now it’s closer to 62k.

Something I always said I thought would happen.

I hope you're right and please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we couldn't go to 60k or above due to something about UEFA regulations? Does the ground not need better infrastructures in place (trains, public transport etc) once you hit the capacity of 60k?
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #709 on: February 22, 2018, 11:31:06 am »
I hope you're right and please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we couldn't go to 60k or above due to something about UEFA regulations? Does the ground not need better infrastructures in place (trains, public transport etc) once you hit the capacity of 60k?

No that comment was from the council, not UEFA, and I think was from when Hicks and Co wanted to build to Super Duper Dome in Stanley Park. That was designed to hold 72k but then limited itself with some ridiculously small 'Anny Rd' (that side of the ground) end to be around 61,500 which is around what the council considered doable without further transport work.

I imagine the figure is probably inline with this amount.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #710 on: February 22, 2018, 11:45:01 am »
No that comment was from the council, not UEFA, and I think was from when Hicks and Co wanted to build to Super Duper Dome in Stanley Park. That was designed to hold 72k but then limited itself with some ridiculously small 'Anny Rd' (that side of the ground) end to be around 61,500 which is around what the council considered doable without further transport work.

I imagine the figure is probably inline with this amount.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up Craig!
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #711 on: February 22, 2018, 06:02:05 pm »
No that comment was from the council, not UEFA, and I think was from when Hicks and Co wanted to build to Super Duper Dome in Stanley Park. That was designed to hold 72k but then limited itself with some ridiculously small 'Anny Rd' (that side of the ground) end to be around 61,500 which is around what the council considered doable without further transport work.

I imagine the figure is probably inline with this amount.

Turned out a complete red herring. The infrastructure for a bigger stadium was never tested by an application. A 'Traffic Management Plan' can cover a multitude of options and capacities in lots of different ways (Buses, Cars, Traffic Control, Parking, Park and Ride).

And just in case it has to be said again, the club is not going to pay for a railway under any circumstances. In fact, studies done advised against the railway for the stadium.

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #712 on: February 23, 2018, 03:30:29 pm »
There is nothing stopping the club going to 70,000 if it saw fit.


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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #713 on: February 23, 2018, 04:12:59 pm »
There is nothing stopping the club going to 70,000 if it saw fit.

As in they have identified where 8k more seats (over the Anny Rd end being done to take us to 62k) could go without too many obstacles?

Offline sonofkenny

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #714 on: February 23, 2018, 04:24:12 pm »
As in they have identified where 8k more seats (over the Anny Rd end being done to take us to 62k) could go without too many obstacles?

No, sorry, I meant whilst they would have to go through a process they would not likely get any major push back from the council transport wise, they originally pushed it 70,000 anyway.

IF they went to 70k it would almost certainly be the KD stand that gets done and that would likely have to be a complete rebuild.

Doable though

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #715 on: February 23, 2018, 05:18:02 pm »
No, sorry, I meant whilst they would have to go through a process they would not likely get any major push back from the council transport wise, they originally pushed it 70,000 anyway.

IF they went to 70k it would almost certainly be the KD stand that gets done and that would likely have to be a complete rebuild.

Doable though
Do able, but realistically viable is a problem.  Closing so many seats would be a huge issue for access...
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #716 on: February 23, 2018, 07:18:02 pm »
No, sorry, I meant whilst they would have to go through a process they would not likely get any major push back from the council transport wise, they originally pushed it 70,000 anyway.

IF they went to 70k it would almost certainly be the KD stand that gets done and that would likely have to be a complete rebuild.

Doable though

Don't we already know all that?

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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #717 on: February 23, 2018, 08:04:23 pm »
Closing an entire stand for a season or more for demolition and a complete rebuild?  Ouch.

Is it conceivable we could demolish and rebuild the upper section during one season whilst keeping the lower stand open?  Perhaps with a temporary roof?  Then the following summer and season maybe demolishing and rebuilding the lower part of the stand?  Or is that just too much of a logistical nightmare?
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #718 on: February 23, 2018, 08:35:53 pm »
Closing an entire stand for a season or more for demolition and a complete rebuild?  Ouch.

Is it conceivable we could demolish and rebuild the upper section during one season whilst keeping the lower stand open?  Perhaps with a temporary roof?  Then the following summer and season maybe demolishing and rebuilding the lower part of the stand?  Or is that just too much of a logistical nightmare?

We can just go and play in Everton’s new 80k stadium whilst it’s being done.
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Re: Anfield Road Redevelopment
« Reply #719 on: February 24, 2018, 03:26:00 am »
We can just go and play in Everton’s new 80k stadium whilst it’s being done.

Ha I wondered how long that'd take someone!!