Author Topic: Listing potential reasons for our decline  (Read 7069 times)

Offline nerdster4

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Listing potential reasons for our decline
« on: February 4, 2023, 08:49:26 pm »
1. Physical exhaustion : playing the way we do and having the number of games we played last season and over the last few years with the the same nucleus of players . However we had fewer players at the World Cup than many rivals and many of our players didn’t feature in every game .

2. Mental anguish : losing two cup finals last season , and several other finals/close run league title challenges . However we have won every potential trophy under klopp.

3. Injuries : yes they’re bad . However they seem to have added to the issues not caused them . We started badly against Fulham and palace with Diaz playing . Alisson , VVD, konate , Trent , Robbo, Hendo , Fabinho , Thiago , Salah , Nunez and Gakpo have all played decent chunks of the season and the outcome is often the same .

4. We have spent this season’s kitty badly : I am sure there is better value for money out there than Nunez but he looks promising , has chipped in with goals and assists , and may turn out to be an astute signing over time . The more baffling signing is Gakpo given that Elliott and carvalho had chipped in with goals and assists and the midfield issues had become very clear with various players losing form badly . I am not sure that 40 million invested in the midfield might have done much but by not signing a midfielder we clearly sent out a statement that we have checked out of this season . Melo Ramsey And Carvalho featuring rarely or not at all is further evidence of this potential reason .

5. Klopp has lost the dressing room : this doesn’t appear to be the case . There is not much toxicity coming through but lifting the players mentally and putting pressure on fsg to buy midfielders (and not left sided forwards ) sits with him . This is the only irreversible potential reason and if it sets in there ll only be one outcome .

6. We have not had enough to spend : true . Less than our rivals . But at this stage we need more than new purchases . Any new players coming into the confidence crisis are going to struggle . New owners may give us more to spend but I can think of worse owners than FSG so we need to be careful what we wish for . Astutely using the money is as important as large transfer funds . Chelsea’s spending for example doesn’t make me jealous as it looks like an imbalanced squad

Whatever about what we should have done , looks like our best option is damage limitation , recover in the summer , spend well in problem areas and go again . If things get much worse there may well be a change at the helm though , either FSG replacing klopp or running away at the earliest opportunity …

« Last Edit: February 4, 2023, 08:55:26 pm by nerdster4 »

Offline Garnier

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #1 on: February 4, 2023, 08:50:54 pm »
Fatigue and tiredness the big ones.

There are many others but the above used to paper over the cracks.
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Offline Knight

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #2 on: February 4, 2023, 09:07:32 pm »
7.  Klopp has massively misunderstood where this squad of players is really at and has been unable to come up with a way of playing that gets results. Given the wage bill and the quality of player we have these results should not be happening.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #3 on: February 4, 2023, 09:10:02 pm »
The players attitude.

That's it.
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Offline nerdster4

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #4 on: February 4, 2023, 09:11:59 pm »
7.  Klopp has massively misunderstood where this squad of players is really at and has been unable to come up with a way of playing that gets results. Given the wage bill and the quality of player we have these results should not be happening.

I really want us to play 3 at the back or try something different .

Offline andy07

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #5 on: February 4, 2023, 09:18:16 pm »
We don’t go from near quadruple winners to mid table unless something is seriously wrong. Ok fatigue, mental and physical, together with a lack of investment play a part, but don’t explain the drop off the edge of the cliff. If players are tired rest them. That is why we have a big squad so we can rotate and keep players fresh.   If squad players aren’t good enough then they shouldn’t be squad players.  No excuses.

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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #6 on: February 4, 2023, 09:30:17 pm »
No idea to b honest. A little over 6 months ago this was one of our greatest teams and a whisker away from being one of the greatest in the history of the game, and I get the whole if you stand still you go backwards, but the speed at which players have declined to mere shadows of their former selves is what I don’t understand, it’s happened frighteningly fast whatever it is that’s causing this
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #7 on: February 4, 2023, 09:34:15 pm »
I really want us to play 3 at the back or try something different .

I've been saying here for months (or at least since it became clear we weren't going for it in Jan) that this season is about damage limitation now because the alternative is literally losing every week. Therefore we just need to put a plaster over things and grind out results any way we can with a real back to basics approach.

Come the summer Klopp needs to be trusted to make sweeping changes, backed with hard cash and hope the right calls are made.
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Offline Walton Red

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #8 on: February 4, 2023, 09:35:42 pm »
I think 2 cannot be overstated

To get well over 90 points in a season and lose the League by a single point on the final day once is bad enough.  To do it twice is unbearably cruel.

I suspect after last season a lot of our players subconsciously thought "well if 95 points and winning pretty much every game in 3 months, is not enough then nothing will be".

i think mental anguish is overwhelmingly the biggest reason

Offline Caps4444

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #9 on: February 4, 2023, 09:39:26 pm »
No idea to b honest. A little over 6 months ago this was one of our greatest teams and a whisker away from being one of the greatest in the history of the game, and I get the whole if you stand still you go backwards, but the speed at which players have declined to mere shadows of their former selves is what I don’t understand, it’s happened frighteningly fast whatever it is that’s causing this

We were….but there were signs towards the end of last season that it was adrenalin / momentum / exhausting the last bit of energy to get us through.
I think we were behind in every game in May (except the FA cup final)?
Fabinho was showing signs of decline in that period.
Listen…it was an incredible season….but towards the end we were running on empty…hence the huge drop off.

Offline Asam

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #10 on: February 4, 2023, 09:42:23 pm »

after getting so close i think the players expected more talent to come in, i don’t think anyone except a few easily pleased idiots thought that we would win the league or champions league this season, it must be incredibly demoralising to go this close and see the club basically give up on competing

all of the off the field stuff hasn’t helped either

Tiredness / fatigue doesn’t impact you when you are winning but it’s a ready made excuse when you are losing, the owners gave up on investing in the team and the team gave up in trying to compete when they didn’t believe in the squad

Offline naYoRHa2b

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #11 on: February 4, 2023, 09:43:51 pm »
I actually feel like it's a mix of planning and poor recruitment. That's not to say there isn't physical fatigue, mental fatigue and injuries but I think if you want to compete at the highest level you have to be prepared for a lot of games and the possibility of losing some and winning some right when it matters.


Offline killer-heels

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #12 on: February 4, 2023, 09:48:17 pm »
The summer was a master class in arrogance/hubris, crazy lack of backing and a complete lack of awareness. 3 footballers signed and 2 of them pretty much youngsters. Absolutely mad when you think about it and it’s cost us a season at least. What makes it worse is that they then followed it up in January with more of the same.

Offline MonsLibpool

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #13 on: February 4, 2023, 09:48:32 pm »
I actually feel like it's a mix of planning and poor recruitment. That's not to say there isn't physical fatigue, mental fatigue and injuries but I think if you want to compete at the highest level you have to be prepared for a lot of games and the possibility of losing some and winning some right when it matters.
Yeah. It's a perfect storm
- Owners not investing enough.
- Jurgen holding on to some players for too long.
- Some players declined.
- New signings not being as good as the players they replaced.
- Some players checking out mentally.
- Niggling injuries.
- Bad luck (some late goals might have transformed our confidence/momentum).
- Arrogance (Pep's book, laughing at rivals).
- Other teams improving.
- Last season (teams are more determined to beat us after our quadruple chase).

Offline bird_lfc

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #14 on: February 4, 2023, 09:53:10 pm »
7. Pep Lijnders Book ?

Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #15 on: February 4, 2023, 09:53:14 pm »
The summer was a master class in arrogance/hubris, crazy lack of backing and a complete lack of awareness. 3 footballers signed and 2 of them pretty much youngsters. Absolutely mad when you think about it and it’s cost us a season at least. What makes it worse is that they then followed it up in January with more of the same.

Everything goes back to last summer -was absolute madness to not strengthen the midfield and added to all the shenanigans with the medical staff (club doctor walking out just before the season) and messing up the pre-season. Had the chance to try and put it right in January but the owners had checked out.

In terms of on the pitch i'd point to two games.

1) Fulham on the opening day first half - never got going after that. Especially as we dropped points.

2) first 5 minutes against Leicester. After a decent result and performance at Villa, our performances since the restart have just gone from bad to worse since that game. The worst we've played at Anfield in a long time and got lucky with the 2 own goals and Leicester were shite anyway.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline markmywords

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #16 on: February 4, 2023, 10:01:41 pm »
I think 2 cannot be overstated

To get well over 90 points in a season and lose the League by a single point on the final day once is bad enough.  To do it twice is unbearably cruel.

I suspect after last season a lot of our players subconsciously thought "well if 95 points and winning pretty much every game in 3 months, is not enough then nothing will be".

i think mental anguish is overwhelmingly the biggest reason

This would have more weight if it had  happened in back to back seasons.  But these last day defeats when interuppted by a CL win and a PL title.  LAst day disappointments can happen and you should bounce back.  Man united lost on the last day in 2010( after Gerrard played a thru ball to the chelsea player to get a crucial gl) and famously the aguero moment in 2012 and they didn't aggregrate their defeats and ignore victories inbetween, like you are suggesting we did, but went on to win the title in 2013

We were 1 of the greatest teams in english football history, but we were not mentality monsters, but physicality monsters and once that physically ebbs.... the bullies are being bullied

Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #17 on: February 4, 2023, 10:19:56 pm »
One reason is the collapse of the structure behind the scenes, no idea what has happened, but it’s gone to shit, all that worked has been cast aside and the signings have become random.   

For sure there has to be fatigue factors and the relentlessness of the past few seasons of chasing cheats finally taking it’s toll, but the last 12-18 months behind the scenes seems to have become a shit show. 

It’s easy to look at it now with hindsight of course, saying Salah shouldn’t have been given that huge new deal and stuff like that - but then what would they have done - let yet another player run his contarct down?  Anyway, until they get a solid structure back in place, and everyone is doing the job they are meant to do, rather than multi-tasking different roles, it’ll continue to be messy.

They need to get the sporting director appointment right.

Also of course, it’s all a bit difficult with absent owners and the whole selling a stake, or selling the club, being up in the air.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #18 on: February 4, 2023, 10:26:03 pm »
This would have more weight if it had  happened in back to back seasons.  But these last day defeats when interuppted by a CL win and a PL title.  LAst day disappointments can happen and you should bounce back.  Man united lost on the last day in 2010( after Gerrard played a thru ball to the chelsea player to get a crucial gl) and famously the aguero moment in 2012 and they didn't aggregrate their defeats and ignore victories inbetween, like you are suggesting we did, but went on to win the title in 2013

We were 1 of the greatest teams in english football history, but we were not mentality monsters, but physicality monsters and once that physically ebbs.... the bullies are being bullied

The league was always a long shot after the Spurs game. It was never in our hands after that and we were always playing catch up with City who built up a big lead over Christmas. If we did win the league then I don't think it would have made much difference with the CL final hangover the excuse.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline gatcliffe

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #19 on: February 4, 2023, 10:31:42 pm »
The whole set up both on and off pitch looks somewhat broken for what ever reason firmly believe the club being up for sale does not help and also Jurgen for me portrays a man fed up with things.
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Offline Sharado

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #20 on: February 4, 2023, 10:55:43 pm »
We've been shite. Is that a reason?
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

Offline Passmaster Molby

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #21 on: February 4, 2023, 11:20:23 pm »
That fucking book……

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #22 on: February 4, 2023, 11:23:44 pm »
This would have more weight if it had  happened in back to back seasons.  But these last day defeats when interuppted by a CL win and a PL title.  LAst day disappointments can happen and you should bounce back.  Man united lost on the last day in 2010( after Gerrard played a thru ball to the chelsea player to get a crucial gl) and famously the aguero moment in 2012 and they didn't aggregrate their defeats and ignore victories inbetween, like you are suggesting we did, but went on to win the title in 2013

We were 1 of the greatest teams in english football history, but we were not mentality monsters, but physicality monsters and once that physically ebbs.... the bullies are being bullied

We also won two trophies in this supposed season of heartbreak .... and it was 7 months ago
If the players are affected by "mental anguish" of only winning two trophies 7 months ago they should retire.
Its a supporters pov construct
« Last Edit: February 4, 2023, 11:25:32 pm by JackWard33 »

Offline LifelongRed, Sussex

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #23 on: February 4, 2023, 11:26:24 pm »
One overriding reason.

Father time caught up on the midfield, whilst the rest of the EPL invested in early/mid 20’s players with pace and power.

FSG/Ward had 4 weeks to act after Craven Cottage and did the sum total of nothing.

Arrogance, nonchalance, tunnel visions for metrics, or dumbly with eyes only for 2023/24 a year ahead.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #24 on: February 4, 2023, 11:31:37 pm »
We also won two trophies in this supposed season of heartbreak .... and it was 7 months ago
If the players are affected by "mental anguish" of only winning two trophies 7 months ago they should retire.
Its a supporters pov construct

Thiago did say the problem was more mental than physical, but that might just be an old player trying to pretend his age isn't a problem.

Offline KloppCorn

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #25 on: February 4, 2023, 11:33:10 pm »
That fucking book……
Big respect because I always read your posts even through our bad years has always been fair. If you say the book I agree with it.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #26 on: February 4, 2023, 11:33:55 pm »
Thiago did say the problem was more mental than physical, but that might just be an old player trying to pretend his age isn't a problem.

I'm not discounting the possibility of mental weakness / confidence etc .. but the idea that them not winning everything last season has caused them to put in one of the worst seasons in our modern history is a real reach

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #27 on: February 4, 2023, 11:35:30 pm »
I'm not discounting the possibility of mental weakness / confidence etc .. but the idea that them not winning everything last season has caused them to put in one of the worst seasons in our modern history is a real reach

Yeah it's nonsense, especially as it's been pointed out that the midfield was already declining months before the season even ended.

Offline duvva 💅

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #28 on: February 5, 2023, 05:03:48 am »
One overriding reason.

Father time caught up on the midfield, whilst the rest of the EPL invested in early/mid 20’s players with pace and power.

FSG/Ward had 4 weeks to act after Craven Cottage and did the sum total of nothing.

Arrogance, nonchalance, tunnel visions for metrics, or dumbly with eyes only for 2023/24 a year ahead.
I don’t believe it’s arrogance or anything of the sort, Klopp just isn’t that kind of person and wouldn’t accept it from anyone else.

While we know we needed a midfielder or two, when they didn’t get their main target and for whatever reason didn’t go after others they would have thought based on previous experience of the players they have that we’d have coped.

No one could have predicted quite such a spectacular fall off from everyone all at once. I can’t think of anything comparable from a top level team (although there probably is if you look hard enough).

To those saying we were flagging or starting to look done at the end of the last season, I think at the time that was easily explainable given the number of games we had played and the lack of time between each one. I’m sure it was expected that even after a shorter than usual off season that the players would recover as they have before. And we’ve also started slowly before because of the intensity of pre season so again they probably thought we would pick up after a bit, so they probably didn’t feel the need to react after Fulham

There’s clearly something not right on the pitch and probably off it with all the changes after a period of stability from the back room team and the owners looking to either sell or gain further investment. While the owners may have known what they were intending to do in the summer we don’t know that.

I think it would be fair to say we should have adapted things like tactics and even our transfer policy more than we have, but the fact we haven’t shouldnt have led to a fall off of such proportions.

I get people are pissed off, frustrated at things that seem obvious but haven’t been addressed, I just think it’s a perfect storm and the best thing we can do as supporters is pull together to support each other and Jurgen and the team. Regardless of the dreadful performances we’ve seen particularly of late, I’m trying hard not to lash out at the players or my fellow supporters as it doesn’t actually make anything better.  Some of the stuff being said about players and now even Jurgen is hard for me to accept based on what these lads have delivered for us. That doesn’t mean we should be complacent and it’s clear now in a way it wasn’t in the summer that many may be done.

I don’t even know what I’m trying to say anymore, I guess I’d like us to largely accept the position we’re in, and give them the chance to fix as much as possible this summer. If that didn’t happen then I think it’ll be much harder to accept as that’s what the evidence points to needing to happen in much bigger way than before.

Let’s try and get behind the team as much as possible and help in any ways we can even if it’s only a minor influence on them. That’s what I’ve always believed supporting Liverpool was about, not just about the good times of which we’ve had plenty but sticking together through the bad times too. That’s what made us special in my eyes, and it feels like we’re losing that.

We sing YNWA and that’s what Jurgen, the staff and players need from us, to know we are there. And we accept their errors this season and give them the chance to put them right. It’s how we react and support during these periods that really show what we as supporters are about. The good times are easy, and they will return, despite it feeling a long way off right now.

End of rant


« Last Edit: February 5, 2023, 11:57:35 am by duvva 💅 »
"If you don't limit yourself with bad thoughts, you can fly" - Jurgen Klopp

Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #29 on: February 5, 2023, 02:52:08 pm »
Great teams have players ready to seize the mantle when they get the opportunity.

Ox and Keita have demonstrated for a while that they are not able deputies for Henderson, Fabinho and Thiago, they should have been gone by last summer at the latest. Likewise, there is an argument for ditching one of the injury prone Matip and Gomez.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #30 on: February 5, 2023, 02:58:53 pm »
Great teams have players ready to seize the mantle when they get the opportunity.

Ox and Keita have demonstrated for a while that they are not able deputies for Henderson, Fabinho and Thiago, they should have been gone by last summer at the latest. Likewise, there is an argument for ditching one of the injury prone Matip and Gomez.
Keita last season demonstrated he was a better fit and performer for our midfield than Henderson, so that seems a little unfair (only limitation being the chance of an injury, which thankfully he mostly avoided last season).

Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #31 on: February 5, 2023, 03:19:41 pm »
Keita last season demonstrated he was a better fit and performer for our midfield than Henderson, so that seems a little unfair (only limitation being the chance of an injury, which thankfully he mostly avoided last season).

Keita picks up an awful lot of injuries.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/naby-keita/verletzungen/spieler/302215

How can you rely on a player to step up with a record like that?

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Offline classycarra

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #32 on: February 5, 2023, 03:26:42 pm »
Keita picks up an awful lot of injuries.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/naby-keita/verletzungen/spieler/302215

How can you rely on a player to step up with a record like that?
Yep. Was just saying last season (and this) he's not playing the role of Henderson's deputy

And to be fair, few look durable this season. The miles on the clock with minimal rotation, the compressed preseason and stupid travel, the  injuries during preseason training, the in-season training injuries. the panicked rushing back of players from injury at the start of the season (Keita picked up an injury at Fulham, we had him on the bench next game and then had to be out for months and well documented Jones issues where they failed to let him rest long enough), the overplaying of VVD Thiago etc.

Neither Hendo nor Keita should be on long-term high-wage contracts. As far as I know, Keita is on neither and was excellent value in our quad run last season. Just think it's slightly overstated (not by you) that Keita has negatively impacted our ability to improve the squad
« Last Edit: February 5, 2023, 03:28:24 pm by classycarra »

Offline Samie

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #33 on: February 5, 2023, 03:27:37 pm »
FSG

Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #34 on: February 5, 2023, 03:36:31 pm »
Yep. Was just saying last season (and this) he's not playing the role of Henderson's deputy

And to be fair, few look durable this season. The miles on the clock with minimal rotation, the compressed preseason and stupid travel, the  injuries during preseason training, the in-season training injuries. the panicked rushing back of players from injury at the start of the season (Keita picked up an injury at Fulham, we had him on the bench next game and then had to be out for months and well documented Jones issues where they failed to let him rest long enough), the overplaying of VVD Thiago etc.

Neither Hendo nor Keita should be on long-term high-wage contracts. As far as I know, Keita is on neither and was excellent value in our quad run last season. Just think it's slightly overstated (not by you) that Keita has negatively impacted our ability to improve the squad

I agree with 95% of what is written above.

The wages paid to the team are below, I have no idea if they are accurate.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/liverpool-fc/payroll/

You’d expect Hendo to be among the highest earners, he’s club captain.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2023, 03:38:25 pm by MrGrumpy »
Justice for the 96!

Offline classycarra

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #35 on: February 5, 2023, 03:39:57 pm »
I agree with 95% of what is written above.

The wages paid to the team are below, I have no idea if they are accurate.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/liverpool-fc/payroll/

You’d expect Hendo to be among the highest earners, he’s club captain.
Thanks mate - know its all a little uncertain but jesus some of those will make ones head hurt (as you said about Chamberlain, not a remotely decent deputy and still being paid big wage)

More concerningly, we have five more contract years of Fabinho and Hendo to pay out (with them being highest earners after Thiago - who only has a year left anyway)
« Last Edit: February 5, 2023, 03:42:13 pm by classycarra »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #36 on: February 5, 2023, 03:42:27 pm »
Thanks mate - know its all a little uncertain but jesus some of those will make ones head hurt (as you said about Chamberlain, not a remotely decent deputy and still being paid big wage)

Also when people talk about Bobby reducing his wage, how much to?

Offline classycarra

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #37 on: February 5, 2023, 03:46:07 pm »
Also when people talk about Bobby reducing his wage, how much to?
Milner's first extension was simply the same wage, I think - and it was only when he was 35 did he take on an extension on a reduced wage.

Has there been talk of Firmino taking a lower waged contract?

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #38 on: February 5, 2023, 03:48:20 pm »
Milner's first extension was simply the same wage, I think - and it was only when he was 35 did he take on an extension on a reduced wage.

Has there been talk of Firmino taking a lower waged contract?

Not that I have read. Normally when there is an argument or discussion on here about Bobby’s contract normally those people advocating for it say he will get a reduced contract.

You would imagine he gets some correction on his wage relative to his squad level but it won’t be anywhere under £100k which then begs the question why the hell would we extend it.

Offline andyrol

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Re: Listing potential reasons for our decline
« Reply #39 on: February 5, 2023, 03:52:40 pm »
mental fatigue. physical fatigue . injuries. lack of midfield signings.   i'm positive we wouldnt be in this position if Diaz and Jota had remained fit- even swapping them for others like Virgil or even Alisson being out for the same amount of time. Diaz not only is a goal threat from anywhere ( including in the air which he was improving at with every game) but he makes defenders and midfielders in the opposition think, that would have meant less 'room' for other teams which has destroyed us at times. Jota himself is always capable of popping up with a goal from nothing or a tap in. these two would have been the difference in games.if ou think about it we've lost Mane and his replacement. The lack of proper investment in midfield isnt new to this season, we've never replaced Wijnaldum.