Topic: FSG discussion thread

[RideTheWalrus]

I think they have been decent owners, who have been respectful to the fans and City, 90% of the time anyway

 Between super league, furlough, trying to raise ticket prices, and anything else I've forgotten about, the only reason these things got stopped is by protest and fan power. They knew they would have pushback on all this, but clearly didn't communicate with fan groups beforehand otherwise they wouldn't have tried these things & more, and was hoping it would just get swept under the rug or get ignored by fans and the media. You're right in that they're not altruistic, I wouldn't expect them to be, they're not the owners who bought us as a plaything, they wanted to grow the club, make money and eventually sell it on hoping the value rises a lot higher than what they bought it for. They're trying to protect their investment.

Personally I think were hoping FFP would actually be implemented and controlled, and now they're at a bit of a loss for what to do going forwards as City/PSG/Newcastle etc can buy whoever and whatever they want. There's a place in football for owners like FSG, but it's at direct odds with us fans who want us winning trophies and leagues.

[ScouserAtHeart]

What's made us successful is A) The best manager in the world B) Buying talent that's on the cusp of being world class C) Getting a shit-ton of money from player sales

B can be replicated, given our scouting team wasn't reliant completely on Edwards. C is getting more and more difficult year on year as we've seen. There's no other Klopp, of course.

I think they've stretched themselves too thin, own too many sports teams to ever pay enough attention to any one of them (think there's talk of them looking to get an NBA franchise to Vegas alongside LeBron too)

Post-Klopp, we'll realistically be back to how we were before him, aiming for the Top 4/5 and getting a good cup run in once in a while. Yes, our value will drop from 3-4 billion or whatever it is now to maybe half that, but that'll still be a huge profit on what they paid for us. Because to increase the value of their investment, we'll have to win things. Winning things involves putting in more money than the club generates. But that's risky, right? Just throwing money at the problem like the Glazers did doesn't mean we'll win enough or win consistently, so for them that's basically money down the drain.

They had two ways of making sure we stayed competitive without taking on extra risk-- hoping FFP gets enforced, and when it didn't, the Super League. I honestly don't think they have a long term plan, we'll just take things season by season.

Once Kloppo leaves I can see them giving the new manager relatively more money to compensate for the fact that he's not Klopp, when that money should go to Klopp instead so we can actually win more things.

Also, I don't see them selling us at all. The next thing they'll be looking for (once the Super League actually folds) is the individual broadcasting rights. That's gonna make them a ton more money. I mean, technically we're for sale. Every non-sportswashing club is. But who's gonna pay them what they ask? Chelsea went for 2.5 billion, they'll easily want double that before they even consider it. And who has that much money lying around, not to mention the further investment that'll be needed in the squad?

[RideTheWalrus]

I don't think the message gets stale. I think it's more that his preferred style of play is incredibly demanding and players aren't able to do it for a long period.  Probably 3-4 years I would think for most is the max that they can sustain that intensity every single game while playing the ridiculous number of games we play every year.

And this is why our gung ho pressing style we haven't played for a few years now, and every year that style is being changed and slowed down to try and help the players still here. We do not play like we used to either 4/5 years ago and even 1/2 years ago, our pressing numbers this season are genuinely shocking, and it doesn't pass the eye test either.

We have 2/3 players who still try to press, but they seem to press at the wrong times. Seeing Robbo chase down the goalkeeper is what first endeared us to him, but seeing him do it now my first thought is 'they're just gonna play down our left now and get in behind'. Most of the goals we've conceded this season seem to come from players breaking through down our flanks, and it just makes me think our pressing has gotten so stale and predictable, and with teams now like Brighton who can comfortably play through a press, we need to adapt it.

[Redric1970]

I think they have been decent owners but they have made mistakes thru penny pinching in the transfer market, while we were at our strongest was when you move forward from a position of strength. We need arguably 3 world class midfielders which we know won’t be cheap between £200-£300mil for the finished articles, now that should have been done over 2-3 transfer windows but nope we haven’t and we are in this position which we really shouldn’t be in with a midfield who’s legs are gone. I honestly believe we have the best manager in the world will it get to the point where he think I can’t do anymore and I don’t want to spoil the legacy I’ve built here, now believe me if people are gutted at the idea of Edwards going to Utd just imagine klopp going to a rival. The crux is now will FSG see that we need and this is just my opinion between £200-£300 million spent to put it right, in my opinion I just can’t see it happening.

[lionel_messias]

Between super league, furlough, trying to raise ticket prices, and anything else I've forgotten about, the only reason these things got stopped is by protest and fan power. They knew they would have pushback on all this, but clearly didn't communicate with fan groups beforehand otherwise they wouldn't have tried these things & more, and was hoping it would just get swept under the rug or get ignored by fans and the media. You're right in that they're not altruistic, I wouldn't expect them to be, they're not the owners who bought us as a plaything, they wanted to grow the club, make money and eventually sell it on hoping the value rises a lot higher than what they bought it for. They're trying to protect their investment.

Personally I think were hoping FFP would actually be implemented and controlled, and now they're at a bit of a loss for what to do going forwards as City/PSG/Newcastle etc can buy whoever and whatever they want. There's a place in football for owners like FSG, but it's at direct odds with us fans who want us winning trophies and leagues.

If they want to protect their investment now, before selling in a few years, then the argument goes the net transfer cost is going to be roughly £150-200 million, which while ruling out the megastars with Beatles songs in their names, would allow Klopp the £40-50 million players he could fashion a new team out of.

[RideTheWalrus]

If they want to protect their investment now, before selling in a few years, then the argument goes the net transfer cost is going to be roughly £150-200 million, which while ruling out the megastars with Beatles songs in their names, would allow Klopp the £40-50 million players he could fashion a new team out of.

That's the thing, I don't think they will sell in a few years, I think they're just coasting right now. I'd love to know what their valuation of the club is that would cause them to sell. Maybe they're just waiting to see when super league 2.0 comes about

[TwitterJayy]

Can’t see them not selling once we eventually drop down even more.

We’re not like there American teams, that’s the whole point they wanted the super league because they know there business model won’t work forever.

The problem for some people is who will they sell to?

Someone needs to explain to me why they can’t invest in the team and take some for themselves?
Surely we have made enough money for everyone to benefit?

[RideTheWalrus]

Can’t see them not selling once we eventually drop down even more.

We’re not like there American teams, that’s the whole point they wanted the super league because they know there business model won’t work forever.

The problem for some people is who will they sell to?

Someone needs to explain to me why they can’t invest in the team and take some for themselves?
Surely we have made enough money for everyone to benefit?

AFAIK they don't really take money from us, they want us to be self sustainable and to spend the money we bring into the club. Hire people to look after their asset, and more or less leave us alone to get on with it and not be too involved themselves in it. AFAIK their big pay day will be when they sell the club, which will be for billions after they bought us cheap

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I agree with benchmarking us vs Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs rather than against the sportswashers.

Chelsea, it's too early to tell, but my guess is that the new owners are spending early so as to avoid too much scrutiny from fans. Torres and Mascherano anyone? So it is too early to tell what their real level of spend will be.

Arsenal have spent a fair bit recently, but have a feeling their wage bill is nowhere near ours. Their revenue is a fair bit behind ours though. Not sure whether they've paid for their stadium, but even if they have, there will be upward pressure on their wage bill to keep their squad happy.

Spurs have a big stadium loan to pay back, again revenue, despite increased stadium income, and wage bill are a long way off ours.

Utd. They've burned through most of their cash reserves on various expensive signings and carry a higher wage bill. Their revenues are similar to us now, and they have posted losses for the season just gone. Their share price is also way down. They have to increase revenues from an already high base or they won't be able to carry on spending like they have done. They also need to do some cap ex on the stadium and maybe the training ground.

So where does that leave us? Last accounts show we still owe £70m odd on the main stand and we're told that the Axa and Annie Rd stand are being paid for out of  club funds (I don't want to go into the rights and wrongs of that approach in detail) We have had low net spends, but have supported a large wage bill.

The glass half full part of me says that once the 2 latest bits of capex are done, we should be able to sustain substantial levels of investment on wages and transfers. Not as much as Utd have done, which was supported I understand by cash reserves. But it could be similar in the future.

The glass half empty is view is that relative lack of success leads to lower income and then we are told we have to cut our cloth accordingly. The other scenario is that despite higher revenues and lower capex requirements, caution becomes the dominant force.

The big questions for me are whether FSG, post pandemic have been too cautious by making the club finance the ARE and AXA which has left us short of funds to invest when we've needed them. The other is the extent to which Klopp has been focused on main target or nothing, although his comments about risk suggest that maybe he isn't the sticking point. We have had 2 seasons in the last 3 when injuries have left us short in central defence and midfield respectively. We just about got away with the first, but it looks like our luck may run out this season because there looks to be more competition.

The danger is that life doesn't operate in a straight line and that the need for investment may not coincide with the optimum time to spend (from FSGs point of view). A club with our revenue profile should be able to compete with the 4 clubs mentioned, but it's down to FSGs management that we are able to make that claim, because other than Spurs, we have been way behind the other 3 clubs in the past.

[Nobby Reserve]

OK.

Then let's waste no more time: The argument is won. FSG are out. They're gone.

According to the many arguments in countless threads on here (which I have summarised as best I can and posted below) and in other sites against FSG and club ownership as a whole, our new owners:

a) Do not conduct themselves like of City, Madrid, Barca, Utd, etc owners and are completely compliant with the laws and rules of football's governing bodies.
b) Are totally accepted and welcomed by the entire fanbase
c) Have unlimited funds to do whatever we want whenever we want (a-la City/Newcastle)
d) Are not an oil state, Russian gangster, have obtained or gained money from any questionable sources, paid all taxes, are not human rights abusers or have any character flaw(s)
e) Stay completely in the background, have no say in negotiating contracts or anything whatsoever to do with the football side
f) Never fuck up and if they do, accept they must be replaced immediately by someone who doesn't
g) Have no other interests outside of Liverpool Football club
h) Be completely impervious to the utter mess the World and more prevalently this countries economy is in right now and for the foreseeable future
i) Deliver on a long-term strategy that means absolutely zero leveraged debt of any kind agains the club.
j) Deliver at least one major trophy every season
k) Must produce financial results that show us in the black from now on in.
l) Have to be from the City or lifelong Liverpool fans

So who are they?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

 

[Caston]

I personally feel we have outgrown them and I don't think they have what it takes to consistently keep us challenging at the top in the future.

[RideTheWalrus]

I agree with benchmarking us vs Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs rather than against the sportswashers.

Chelsea, it's too early to tell, but my guess is that the new owners are spending early so as to avoid too much scrutiny from fans. Torres and Mascherano anyone? So it is too early to tell what their real level of spend will be.

Arsenal have spent a fair bit recently, but have a feeling their wage bill is nowhere near ours. Their revenue is a fair bit behind ours though. Not sure whether they've paid for their stadium, but even if they have, there will be upward pressure on their wage bill to keep their squad happy.

Spurs have a big stadium loan to pay back, again revenue, despite increased stadium income, and wage bill are a long way off ours.

Chelsea's spending this summer was heavily helped by Roman wiping off all of the club debt and what he was owed iirc. They have a rich owner, but only time will tell if they'll keep up spending so much.

I think Arsenal still have another ten years or so of paying off their stadium, but they're now also running into issues where they already are needing to refurb sections of the stadium already. Which is baffling to me that they haven't paid it off, but are already needing to do it up.

Spurs' stadium is in a weird place, they're playing very hardball with sponsorship rights which is why it's still unsponsored, but it's a massive lovely stadium that is also multi-purpose (think NFL), so I assume a massive stadium sponsorship will come sooner rather than later and then their stadium debt will really start to trickle down. But COVID did hit their stadium hard also, but they're in a very very good position for the long term future. They, unfortunately, are not going to drift back down the table like they used to be.
Their debt is still very large and to multiple lenders, but a lot of that is purely down to the stadium.

idk much about Uniteds really

[lionel_messias]

That's the thing, I don't think they will sell in a few years, I think they're just coasting right now. I'd love to know what their valuation of the club is that would cause them to sell. Maybe they're just waiting to see when super league 2.0 comes about

You might be right about ESL, which has many legal complications before it could ever actually be realised. John Henry is 73 I think. So you'd imagine holding onto the club another 10 years is not so interesting but 4-5 might be.

With real inflation and football inflation, the value of the club should hold as stratospheric for the next 5 years, just remains for the "right" entity to come forward.

Have no idea who that would be; ultra-capatalism and Nation State dictatorships not being in sych with the local fanbase's political happy place. If that matters!

[cdav]

It all gets a bit too binary this argument between good and bad, FSG or a City type sportswashing owner. Especially as everything seems to be viewed (both now and also historically) through preconceived ideas

When they took us over I wanted us to be self-sufficient and challenging for everything, and we broadly have been off the back of their decisions over the last 8 years. They have learned, put the right people in charge and delegated the decision making to the right people. I'm also delighted with staying at Anfield and how it will look once the ARE is completed

It seems to have all reared its head now on the back of a shit start to a season and, especially, the lack of signing a midfielder in the summer. For me this all comes down to the resource allocation argument- we have been spending big on wages and infrastructure and less on transfers spending. If you argue that is wrong who is to blame in the current system that FSG impose (self-sustainability)- the transfer nerds, the management, everyone?

The question then becomes should we have borrowed to fund the stadium expansion/ transfers but an issue with that is how and when its paid back? You look at Spurs, Arsenal and United and wonder when this situation will hit for them

How to sort it going forward is the more interesting question for me. We absolutely need to spend more on transfers in the next few windows- I would hope with the infrastructure spend stopping next summer there should be significant funds available. A lot of crying over net spends are judging based off what has happened over last 5-8 years when we have had much lower revenues- we absolutely should be able to afford a big spend especially with structuring payment terms to spread the cost. The management also need to take some blame on keeping players past their best and start getting more value for money from the wage bill

[killer-heels]

I personally feel we have outgrown them and I don't think they have what it takes to consistently keep us challenging at the top in the future.

I would definitely class us as challenging if we are a top four side pretty much all the time. There is no excuse for us not to have the money to do that.

Next summer, if we are spending less than Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, United etc. then something is wrong.

[RideTheWalrus]

You might be right about ESL, which has many legal complications before it could ever actually be realised. John Henry is 73 I think. So you'd imagine holding onto the club another 10 years is not so interesting but 4-5 might be.

With real inflation and football inflation, the value of the club should hold as stratospheric for the next 5 years, just remains for the "right" entity to come forward.

Have no idea who that would be; ultra-capatalism and Nation State dictatorships not being in sych with the local fanbase's political happy place. If that matters!

Newcastle wasn't in sync with a nation state either, but Mike Ashleys ownership pushed them to celebrate it, and I think the vast majority of them now 'overlook' the monstrosities.

Not saying it'll happen and I hope it doesn't, but you know as well as I do there'll be a lot of people who would welcome a barbaric countries ownership.

Unfortunately, sportwashing has been proven to work time and time again, and now it's been proven to be successful, more places will be attempting it

[RideTheWalrus]

I would definitely class us as challenging if we are a top four side pretty much all the time. There is no excuse for us not to have the money to do that.

Next summer, if we are spending less than Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, United etc. then something is wrong.

"The money is available for the right player, but due to finishing outside the top 4 the targets we wanted were not interested, and now the club will wait until the right players are available"

~Liverpool journos, August 2023 (probably)

 

[kcbworth]

Their model doesn't work anymore. In fact it's a miracle it has worked

I think this comment beautifully encapsulates how listening to the baying know it alls is dangerous. I remember us being bang bang average like it was just the other day, then turning into one of the best club sides in history. Can anyone guarantee that would have happened if FSG hadn't done things their way??

[TwitterJayy]

AFAIK they don't really take money from us, they want us to be self sustainable and to spend the money we bring into the club. Hire people to look after their asset, and more or less leave us alone to get on with it and not be too involved themselves in it. AFAIK their big pay day will be when they sell the club, which will be for billions after they bought us cheap

Spend what we earn? Every other club has been doing the same.
I’m not asking them to inject money but a club that won what we’ve won is criminal.
Does that prize money just sit in a rainy day pot?
Add on sponsorships and other income.
We shouldn’t have a net spend on £8m over x amount of years.

I just will never understand how clubs such as Villa, West Ham, Spurs spend more.
Realistically we should be on par with United or just below.

Not spending less with teams looking to stay up. Our poor season is down to neglecting the squad (especially midfield). FSG are the American version of Mike Ashley, but some people can’t say a bad word because they ‘saved us’

[kcbworth]

I agree with benchmarking us vs Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs rather than against the sportswashers.

Great! We've done a shit ton better than them in the last 5 years. Night and day

Oh, you mean in the comp that really matters, the "how much can you spend" comp. Gotcha

Fwiw I agree we should be in the same ballpark, but I think people get caught up in the wrong thing personally

[naka]

we have had a fabulous time under jurgen which has culminated in 4 european finals, a title and 3 near misses as well as domestic cup success.( this has brought in 100s of millions to the club)
whilst fsg have done a lot of things I feel as though they have got lucky with jurgen and good on them, we reaped the benefits.
liverpool`s value has grown to a level whereby we are now matching Man Utd and are only being surpassed by Real and the sports washing operations.
this coming year will though be a pivotal year for Fsg as i feel that we need to spend in January and have a substantial refresh in the Summer, it is at that stage we will know if we have outgrown them.

[Walshy nMe®]

FSG are good owners, that isn't up to debate, surely.

The problem is if we want to compete at the very highest level, then they cannot do it within the rules of football.  Selling players to raise funds for replacements, working within your means, turning a profit.

Chelsea, City, PSG, Barca, Real Madrid and now Newcastle all for various reasons have smashed that wide open and now to compete you need to be owned by someone who is happy to spend what it takes, regardless of business sense.

That is NOT what I want for this club, and to me football is dead if that is the only way to achieve success.

[Walshy nMe®]

And if a club thinks they have outgrown owners like FSG - then there is only one real alternative, and it's pretty ugly for football as a whole.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

What I want to know, and this is a legitimate question, what model works? Or is acceptable?

You have the Newcastle/City model which is the one that works, but would require an oil state and I would hope is unacceptable.

Then you have Arsenal/United/Spurs which is based on taking out loans to make player purchases. This was the model employee by H&G as well which nearly took us out of existence because we had so many unpaid loans. So do we have to go back to this, loans on transfers and hoping they pay off?

Then there is Bohley at Chelsea, who frankly we know little about because he had one summer spending big when he first got there, with a club cleared of all debt by Abramhovic not the buyer. But is this the only option, a high net worth individual spending all his personal money for fun.

I am not saying what FSG is doing is correct, but again am I being overly dramatic when I believe football is in a bad way, that the only way to come close to competing is to have risky loans, to be sports washing, or to be a toy for the sickeningly wealthy. You can't be ran as a business to be successful it has to be gambling, sell your soul, or be a toy.

[clinical]

They came into make money. They have and will make tonnes of money off us.

They want us to win. But certainly not win at all costs and certainly aren't really arsed what anyone on here (or elsewhere) thinks about them either.

They no doubt hoped FFP was a thing. Turns out FFP was a load of shite sadly.

I want us to win every single game we play. I want to see us win the big trophies. I fear we've seen the best it will ever be under FSG. They call it the big 6 will soon be the big 7 with Newcastle and we'll be 7th on that list in terms of investment. I think they won't care too much if we're 7th either if the club maintains or grows it's value.

it's just a bit sad they aren't prepared to spend any of their own money on us considering how rich we've made them. Just give us a little back.

[kcbworth]

I reckon they're still smarting from the Andy Carroll situation a bit, now they want to be more sure. I don't think it's an unwillingnesd to spend, but more an unwillingness to spend on anything other than the exact right thing

[plura]

Not quite as black and white as its made out to be.

FSG have allowed us to buy some great players. They were, largely "good potential" but a few have been top class on purchase. Our wage structure is one the highest, not THE highest though, obviously. On the whole funds are used to equip our squad adequately. That is until this summer, though the distraction is a high fee paid for Nunez, that would not have happened if Mane stays, I assume.

What the real killer has been this season though, is not solely FSG being tight fisted this summer, when everyone and their dog was on a deranged spending frenzy. It is, you know .. injuries, fucktonnes of them, more than the last near disaster season we had. Deep down you know it, if we were on a winning streak this discussion is not happening.

With all that being said, it was a terrible summer, I mean Melo was a disaster waiting to happen. That has been the one time I thought, FSG, you penny pinching gits, get us a non broken player.

“FSG have allowed us to buy us some great players?”
Sorry but is it in the nature of owners to stop that when the transfer budget allows for it?

And “our wage structure is one of the highest”?
We are also one of the richest teams in the world, with a strong growing turnover and we are in a position to spend a lot on wages and transfers just due from what we earn yearly.

So unless we had Scrooge as an owner or some villain that took out the money that the club makes then that’s the least we could expect 

One of the better posts in here, from Zlen raises some important questions. Are they too rigid? And are they too risk averse, and standing in our way when we have some golden opportunities to build on success?

Those are valid concerns. Combined with the also perhaps risk averse or rigid approach that meant revenue goes to development and paying off debt rather than spendings for transfers. Obviously the latter done in a normal and healthy business manner.

[Suareznumber7]

Can’t see them not selling once we eventually drop down even more.

Article in the Echo saying they are in it for the long term. 

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sam-kennedy-vows-fsg-in-25341178

Sam Kennedy, president of the Boston Red Sox, CEO of both Fenway Sports Management and Fenway Sports Group real estate, and an FSG partner, is tasked with the growth of the real estate side of the operation across FSG's teams, and with more work planned for Anfield beyond the completion of the Anfield Road End, which is scheduled to be finished in time for next season, there is reaffirmed commitment to long-term ownership.

Speaking at the Sportico Invest in Sports conference in New York on Wednesday, where the ECHO were in attendance, Kennedy said: "We are in a new world, trying to figure out what is going to happen three of four years from now. If anybody can tell you they are lying.

"The good news is that we are in this for the long haul. Our investment came together in 2001 and in 2002 we closed (on a deal to purchase the Boston Red Sox). Since then we have added assets, franchises and real estate to the porfolio.

"We are inbuilt and invest for the long haul. Our time horizon is forever, especially when it comes to our real estate activity. We are taking a very long view and we don't have the typical expectations around quarterly returns or annual returns because we are in it for so long. It is a two-pronged strategy.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Exactly. They have no reason to sell at all.

[TwitterJayy]

FSG are good owners, that isn't up to debate, surely.

The problem is if we want to compete at the very highest level, then they cannot do it within the rules of football.  Selling players to raise funds for replacements, working within your means, turning a profit.

Chelsea, City, PSG, Barca, Real Madrid and now Newcastle all for various reasons have smashed that wide open and now to compete you need to be owned by someone who is happy to spend what it takes, regardless of business sense.

That is NOT what I want for this club, and to me football is dead if that is the only way to achieve success.

I’ll give credit we’re it’s due. It could be worse but wouldn’t say great.
We’re a business so fair enough to them but we can’t be the underdog in the prem as it’s basically a super league. All they have to do is spend what we earn and back the manager.

Nobody is wanting them to compete with state clubs but surely we should be the level below that.
Realistically we haven’t won much as we should of under Klopp and that’s down to the owners.

£££ over trophies.
Could of invested and have both but they’d rather play it safe and prioritise the £££.

2017/2018 season was clear as day we need a goal keeper because Karius wasn’t good enough. Cost us a European Cup.

2020/2021 season top the league at Christmas with no center backs. Everyone knew what we needed. FSG sign two players. Both not good enough, result was scraping 4th and seeing Chelsea win the CL and city winning the league. (Lowest point total under pep as well)

2021/2022 great season but imagine going to spurs away with Milner and a kid in midfield. Dropped two points there. Sign a midfielder and we probably win the quad.

Now this season, we neglect an area we’ve been crying for to be fixed and look at the results. There’s every chance we could be playing Europa from January

On top of all this, they’ve tried to fleece the fans. Thank god for SoS.
Could list numerous on things and it’s not even being unreasonable either.

[DonkeyWan]

Personally think FSG have done more right than wrong. They are amongst the best owners out there, and are always open and responsive to the fans, for good or ill. As the OP outlined, there are things they have done well and areas they could have been better. SO I won't repeat that, I fewlt that was a fair summation.

I think it was Zen (?) who made the astute observation about their failure to seize the momnent when the moment arrives and that is biggest criticism I feel can be levelled. It's at the root of discussions around their ceiling, because it's that which drives the dissatisfaction.

However, I agree with those people who ask 'what are the alternatives?' You would give up security in the vain hope LFC  might be able to compete with the City's of the world? I think the owners have decided to reign in LFC ambitions and almost hibernbate while building infrastructure, in the hope that these state owned operations might go away. So, they spend conservastively and invest in  capital wisely. They really do view themselves as custodians. But that is of little interest to fans who live in the here and now, necessarily. So, anxiety, but what else can you do?

[redk84]

we have had a fabulous time under jurgen which has culminated in 4 european finals, a title and 3 near misses as well as domestic cup success.( this has brought in 100s of millions to the club)
whilst fsg have done a lot of things I feel as though they have got lucky with jurgen and good on them, we reaped the benefits.
liverpool`s value has grown to a level whereby we are now matching Man Utd and are only being surpassed by Real and the sports washing operations.
this coming year will though be a pivotal year for Fsg as i feel that we need to spend in January and have a substantial refresh in the Summer, it is at that stage we will know if we have outgrown them.

The 3 near misses grates on me I must admit.
One of those should have been ours with a little luck or whatever...will just be one of those things that sticks for a while like the Gerrard "slip". Unless Jurgen gets another PL win I feel

On FSG..
Well.
They've done well and they've not done well...as a team that needs to compete at the top end every season our club needs brilliant recruitment and a manager like Jurgen. All the cogs must work damn near perfect for our particular machine - from the physios, to the coaches, to the facilities - we need to gain every extra inch towards perfection where we can if we cannot throw money around to mask squad issues
We should however be able to match the spend/outspend every team bar City/Newcastle...
I don't think we do. Or haven't done in recent seasons especially with the rewards for going deep in competitions (although I am not sure how much of that as a % would go to player bonuses). I'd have thought atleast some would go towards further squad development.

And yeah some years things can just go horribly wrong on a few levels and that's ok. That's just football. We had an injury plagued season, followed by one hell of a campaign last season, followed by what looks like another injury plagued season.

Maybe it is just hard lines compounding an exposure of our weaknesses - but what will change?
We had that Redbird investment.....we have a stadium expansion coming in....
But will that improve the money added to our kitty in addition to player sales?

Only time will tell.
But from when FSG bought us to now - the football climate is very different so what has worked for us up to now may not work going forwards so then it would be the responsibility of the owners to figure out the best way to make this team as good as can be. Off the pitch we seem to be in good health, so maybe that will help?
One thing that can't be done is to sit still, especially in this league.

[clinical]

Article in the Echo saying they are in it for the long term. 

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sam-kennedy-vows-fsg-in-25341178

They will be quite happy with us in midtable if the value of the club keeps going up. Sure they'd like us in Europe and winning things. But as long as the value goes up they'll be absolutely fine with it. They aren't winners, they're investors.

[ScottScott]

I’ll give credit we’re it’s due. It could be worse but wouldn’t say great.
We’re a business so fair enough to them but we can’t be the underdog in the prem as it’s basically a super league. All they have to do is spend what we earn and back the manager.

Nobody is wanting them to compete with state clubs but surely we should be the level below that.
Realistically we haven’t won much as we should of under Klopp and that’s down to the owners.

£££ over trophies.
Could of invested and have both but they’d rather play it safe and prioritise the £££.

2017/2018 season was clear as day we need a goal keeper because Karius wasn’t good enough. Cost us a European Cup.

2020/2021 season top the league at Christmas with no center backs. Everyone knew what we needed. FSG sign two players. Both not good enough, result was scraping 4th and seeing Chelsea win the CL and city winning the league. (Lowest point total under pep as well)

2021/2022 great season but imagine going to spurs away with Milner and a kid in midfield. Dropped two points there. Sign a midfielder and we probably win the quad.

Now this season, we neglect an area we’ve been crying for to be fixed and look at the results. There’s every chance we could be playing Europa from January

On top of all this, they’ve tried to fleece the fans. Thank god for SoS.
Could list numerous on things and it’s not even being unreasonable either.

I mean, I understand the arguing against them, but like Al has done several times in his arguing, at least be honest in it. The 1st bolded point is just fucking untrue. Everybody thought Midnolet was the issue (well, him and Achterberg) so when we brought in Karius, who had just had an unbelievable season in the BuLi and was 2nd only to Neur, everybody thought we would be much better off for it. Yes, he cost us a European Cup but again, mitigating factors in that

The 2nd point, do you even remember that season, because I would suggest not. We finished 3rd, 2 and 3 points clear of 4th and 5th and I think other than a massive swing in goals, we were basically guarenteed 4th going into the last game. Yes we had issues, I'd say unprecedented injury issue but look at us this season again, and we probably should have moved a bit quicker in the market, but we ended up going on a great winning and unbeaten run without the 2 CBs we brought in, so it could be argued that we should have moved to Phillips/Williams a bit sooner

Argue until your blue in the face about FSG, they're going nowhere. If you want them to invest their own money and spend a couple of hundred million a year then I think you're going to have to get a protest going and force them out

[Kundale]

They came into make money. They have and will make tonnes of money off us.

They want us to win. But certainly not win at all costs and certainly aren't really arsed what anyone on here (or elsewhere) thinks about them either.

They no doubt hoped FFP was a thing. Turns out FFP was a load of shite sadly.

I want us to win every single game we play. I want to see us win the big trophies. I fear we've seen the best it will ever be under FSG. They call it the big 6 will soon be the big 7 with Newcastle and we'll be 7th on that list in terms of investment. I think they won't care too much if we're 7th either if the club maintains or grows it's value.

it's just a bit sad they aren't prepared to spend any of their own money on us considering how rich we've made them. Just give us a little back.

This is what I believe as well. They are business people who bought LFC to make money and money they have made. Increase in valuation of LFC increases the value of FSG. I am pretty sure the LFC had direct impact on the value of 10% FSG shares sold to RedBird. Nothing wrong in terms of business. They don't need to make hard cash from LFC, they can make money because of LFC.

They are not here for football but for money. They will squeeze every ounce till they can, but its interesting to see how they are gonna fund the new transfers as we don't have more Coutinhos. We have already depleted the squad when we had to sell more to fund few.

[lfcred1976]

They got extremely lucky on two occasions, firstly getting Klopp to become our manager, he could've easily said no. Secondly, getting over 140 million for Coutinho, without that insanity from Barca we don't get Becker and Virg

The news about Edwards going to Utd is depressing as fuck. The best behind the scenes man in world football and he's going to them c*nts.

Great move for Edwards that if true. Going to a club that doesn’t penny pinch so he’ll be absolutely delighted to be able to work in a model that isn’t sell to buy.

[lfcred1976]

I'd walk away from the club if we became a sportswashed team. Would rather see us in the lower leagues with some integrity than become what City and Newcastle have become.

Nah you wouldn’t. Anyone who says that is chatting bollocks to toe the party line on here.

So you wouldn’t want Klopp to have unlimited funds to sign any player he wanted rather than having to beg, steal and borrow to sign shite like Minamino?  Ok.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Great! We've done a shit ton better than them in the last 5 years. Night and day

Oh, you mean in the comp that really matters, the "how much can you spend" comp. Gotcha

Fwiw I agree we should be in the same ballpark, but I think people get caught up in the wrong thing personally

I've always been one for looking at the wider picture and and not getting obsessed over one or two metrics. I think benchmarking against those clubs is a useful barometer of what we are doing. But it has to be done over a complete cycle, rather than people cherry picking the odd season that suits their argument. Arsenal for example are coming off a couple of seasons of fairly heavy tansfer spending. Their next issue will be keeping that squad together, which will require money and success. But we may see higher wages and lower spending, unless of course they get a huge offer for one of their good players.

I agree that people do get caught up in the wrong thing, however it's inevitable when in 2 seasons out of 3, we've had weaknesses in the squad that were then compounded by injuries.

[TwitterJayy]

I mean, I understand the arguing against them, but like Al has done several times in his arguing, at least be honest in it. The 1st bolded point is just fucking untrue. Everybody thought Midnolet was the issue (well, him and Achterberg) so when we brought in Karius, who had just had an unbelievable season in the BuLi and was 2nd only to Neur, everybody thought we would be much better off for it. Yes, he cost us a European Cup but again, mitigating factors in that

The 2nd point, do you even remember that season, because I would suggest not. We finished 3rd, 2 and 3 points clear of 4th and 5th and I think other than a massive swing in goals, we were basically guarenteed 4th going into the last game. Yes we had issues, I'd say unprecedented injury issue but look at us this season again, and we probably should have moved a bit quicker in the market, but we ended up going on a great winning and unbeaten run without the 2 CBs we brought in, so it could be argued that we should have moved to Phillips/Williams a bit sooner

Argue until your blue in the face about FSG, they're going nowhere. If you want them to invest their own money and spend a couple of hundred million a year then I think you're going to have to get a protest going and force them out

Don’t see how it’s untrue? We signed him in 2016/2017 season and he had a disaster away at Bournemouth. Think that was the season we all knew we needed a keeper. Each to there own I guess, but we knew the defence needed fixing.

Give them the credit that they got us VVD that season though.

Onto my second point, I remember that season very well. It was shite you could tell the players needed the fans for a extra boost. But we wasted a season with key players in there prime because they didn’t want to spend. That great winning run got us 3rd… now imagine spending and winning the European cup? We got knocked out by a poor Madrid side and a poor Chelsea side won it.

Again nobody is asking them to spend there own money, but don’t be naive to think we don’t make stupid money to atleast spend more than Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea.

That 2020/2021 season was what actually made start to question our owners ambition. I’m happy for them to make a profit because at the end of the day it’s a business but atleast make us competitive and not fleece the fans at any given opportunity.

There good owners in the sense is that there not responsible for chopping journalists fingers off I suppose

[lionel_messias]

Nah you wouldn’t. Anyone who says that is chatting bollocks to toe the party line on here.

So you wouldn’t want Klopp to have unlimited funds to sign any player he wanted rather than having to beg, steal and borrow to sign shite like Minamino?  Ok.

I respect what you are saying but that line in the sand would have to be tested if it ever happened.

Say a Chinese Investment vehicle comes in with XBillion Yen on the table, how many fans would stay and support the club and how many would move on?

Personally, I have supported this club since I was 10 years old, so not sure how I could divorce, more Til Death Us do Part kind of deal.