Topic: Trump Faceached & Twattered. "Instakarma's gonna getcha....." #bannedontherun

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Elizabeth Warren is a populist. There is a reason that Trump tried to frame her much much earlier than Biden...he fears her.

and she has been attacking him for a good while, whereas Biden has kept quiet mostly

[Giono]

so far it is a walk in the park for Trump to win.  And he can add a few ridiculous tweets or grab something inapproriate before

Democrats are hoping voters understand their language but they will wait until chicken have teeth

2018 didn't happen then? Jesus, some people have the memories of goldfish. When he gets measured up against a single Dem candidate with a unified Dem party behind her/him and after having been tested in a real leadership race (not a coronation or A vs B)...the reality of this election will be much different.

[Giono]

Google is being odd when I search 'universal basic income'. I either get no results or one negative result. Is it just me?

Just you. Did you try to turn it on or off?

Looking forward to hearing how much attention Andrew Yang gets tonight on this subject.

[Giono]

Amazing the effect that Bernie has had on the Dem debate. Even if he doesn't win the nomination, he has dragged that party into a progressive direction. Some relief after the bullshit third way that Clinton was trying to sell (and yes I don't need to be told that she is better than Trump, everyone is better than Trump, doesn't mean Clinton wasn't a horrible candidate with horrible policies that were just a watered down version of the crap that the Republicans were selling).

You are describing Bill Clinton too.

Bernie deserves credit. But also the Republicans who have been labelling anything progressive and modern as 'socialist'...so now that term us no longer scary, but it describes a lot of reasonable solutions.

[Giono]

Weird, I only get the Joseph Rowntree Foundation telling me it's shite.

Anyway...Andrew Yang. What's the downside on this guy? I've been barely following the primaries as I'm depressed enough by UK politics, but Yang has slipped through my net via a couple of podcasts. He sounds very convincing. Why is he not gathering more momentum?

He is not a politician. But he still qualified for this debate. That's pretty good in this field.

[Giono]

Ah, right, I hadn't even noticed that glaring omission. Sounds like he should go off and be a governor somewhere and then come back when he has a record to run on. I hope he has at least got people talking about some important issues.

He is a great advocate for public healthcare and UBI. He frames it as a structure that frees people to participate in a fluid new economy being revolutionised by AI. He also sells UBI as a way to actually help make small towns and rural areas more viable...basically delivering real tangible benefits to Trump's rural voters. He sells it as a way to turn rural America from red to blue.

Obama was a senator for a handfull of years. Never really a politician at all.

[Giono]

and she has been attacking him for a good while, whereas Biden has kept quiet mostly

She also has quickly called for him to be impeached.

[killer-heels]

That makes absolutely no sense. Obviously someone who votes a particular way in an election is not neutral in that particular election, but that doesn't mean they will always vote the same way... that's why they identify as 'independents'. That's how you win elections in the US: make sure you get your base to turn out, and attract enough independents. People who voted for Bush Jr also voted for Obama; people who voted for Obama also voted for Trump. Some people were willing to overlook his personal behaviour before he got into office because they thought he could at least deliver results. Now they've seen that he can't. And their only chance so far to deliver their verdict on that, and his further appalling behaviour since he took office, was the mid-term elections, where the Republicans got battered.

Floating voters will move away from Trump (even if they don't vote Democrat and just don't turn out) because there's just nothing to keep them with him - he can't deliver anything to help them and the attraction and novelty of voting for an outsider just isn't there anymore.  Especially if he takes away their healthcare. And people who didn't bother voting last time because they weren't fond of Hillary or assumed she would win, will not be making the same mistake this time.

I know it's tempting to take the pessimistic view, but you have to look at how he is actually, in practical terms, going to get the votes to win. In 2016, he won Florida by 1.3%, Pennsylvania by 1.2%, Michigan by 0.3%, Wisconsin by 1%. How is he going to hold onto all those states? With a better Democratic candidate, less voter apathy, a massive increase in voter registration amongst young people, together with Trump's failure to deliver anything for working class people and his 'outsider' schtick no longer being a novelty,  I just don't see how he does it. Everything aligned and fell into place for him in 2016, things are very different now.

What results were they expecting? Muslim bans? Walls?

We will see in a years time. Personally, I have no doubts that Trump has this victory in the bag.

[Caligula?]

Watching these debates reminds me of just how good of a debater Hillary Clinton really was. But perhaps that was her problem; she was too prepared. Watching most of these candidates is just cringeworthy. They're awful (save a few of the favorites), and Trump would take most of them down in a national debate.

[Something Worse]

Watching these debates reminds me of just how good of a debater Hillary Clinton really was. But perhaps that was her problem; she was too prepared. Watching most of these candidates is just cringeworthy. They're awful (save a few of the favorites), and Trump would take most of them down in a national debate.

This is a stupid format that does no candidate any favors. When the field narrows people will start standing out.

[Caligula?]

This is a stupid format that does no candidate any favors. When the field narrows people will start standing out.

Yes. I'm not going to even bother anymore until they trim the field down to 5-6 candidates.

[Giono]

Yes. I'm not going to even bother anymore until they trim the field down to 5-6 candidates.

I'm watching just to see what policy develops and gets traction.

I see all leadership campaigns going this way now with the internet providing instant buzz and fund raising. A 1% like Castro could have a shot with some quick momentum.

[Lone Star Red]

There is no way neutral voters will move away from Trump because you cannot be neutral if you ever voted for him in the first place.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m-267UjyVmM

[Caligula?]

Biden looks out of his depth. Not because he lacks the experience or knowledge, but because his age seems to be a burden. He seems slow, confused, and stumbles through even the simplest of words at times. He's up against opposition that's far more exuberant and hungrier than he seems to be. He's not sharp or precise. Even Sanders seems more up for it, and he's actually older. It's a shame because there's no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin back into Democratic hands during the general but at this rate he's not going to make it.

[Redcap]

Biden looks out of his depth. Not because he lacks the experience or knowledge, but because his age seems to be a burden. He seems slow, confused, and stumbles through even the simplest of words at times. He's up against opposition that's far more exuberant and hungrier than he seems to be. He's not sharp or precise. Even Sanders seems more up for it, and he's actually older. It's a shame because there's no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin back into Democratic hands during the general but at this rate he's not going to make it.

Certainly seems to have been outmanoeuvred by Harris in this debate.

To be honest I'm not sure he would take back those states, because I think those states moved away from the Democratic Party for a reason, and it wasn't just that they didn't like Hillary. I think people want a changing of the guard and some fresh ideas about how to address inequality. Biden doesn't have those ideas. All he is, is an inadequate symbol of nostalgia for better (read: Obama-era) times for the middle class centre-left.

I think the thing he is getting right is steering away from the impeachment message, but I think that's a natural advantage he has because he's so high profile that he doesn't need to be pushing for that to get attention.

That is the one reason I think he might be a reasonable shout for the presidency, because I really don't think most Americans want the rigmarole of impeachment as much as they want real solutions.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Elizabeth Warren is a populist. There is a reason that Trump tried to frame her much much earlier than Biden...he fears her.

Huh? Whilest Warren is very popular with a section of Democratic voters, this does not equate to 'populist'. Populists are all about rhetoric, rarely capable of delivering on their promises. Although Warren stands on a 'reforming' and 'anti-corruption' platform (the meat and bones and populists), she has an actual track record and substance. I am not saying that I think Warren necessarily would be best choice as Democratic candidate, but I could certainly live with it.

[KillieRed]

Certainly seems to have been outmanoeuvred by Harris in this debate.

Interesting that it was Harris who first broke ranks to attack Biden. I don`t think Biden can beat Trump in the public back and forth that will inevitably happen, and as i`ve posted before i really think we need generational change away from the old white guys.

A couple of questions for more knowledgable observors of American politics;

How many of these candidates are actually running for other jobs (though they would never admit to it); the VP or potential jobs in the administration?

Do you think Harris or Buttgieg would be content to settle for a place on the ticket next to someone like Warren, Biden or Bernie?

[rafathegaffa83]

Give it to Klobuchar or Harris. They are clearly the two outstanding candidates. Also the Dems need to remember it's a referendum on Trump not on an election on who is more woke. You just need to convince moderate Republicans who have had enough to side with you. The Democratic candidate needs to be the global equivalent of Winston "The Wolf": someone who cleans up a huge mess.

[Ray K]

Give it to Klobuchar or Harris. They are clearly the two outstanding candidates.

Warren and Harris are by far the best candidates based on the debates and policies.  Anyone who's seen Harris in the Senate Cttee hearings can see her strengths, and Warren's the only one with both the ideas and strategy for implementing her policies.

I do think Biden's 'ah-shucks-folks' style plays well on the stump when he has to meet people and glad-hand them and flash that smile, but he's never been one on details and preparation and a former prosecutor like Harris is going to eat him alive in debates. 

I think any of the non-Senators would settle for it - Buttigieg, Beto, etc. I'm not sure Harris would - but I wonder if AG might interest her?

[mallin9]

Give it to Klobuchar or Harris. They are clearly the two outstanding candidates. Also the Dems need to remember it's a referendum on Trump not on an election on who is more woke. You just need to convince moderate Republicans who have had enough to side with you. The Democratic candidate needs to be the global equivalent of Winston "The Wolf": someone who cleans up a huge mess.

Elizabeth Warren would like a word!
Edit- what Ray said

[Giono]

Huh? Whilest Warren is very popular with a section of Democratic voters, this does not equate to 'populist'. Populists are all about rhetoric, rarely capable of delivering on their promises. Although Warren stands on a 'reforming' and 'anti-corruption' platform (the meat and bones and populists), she has an actual track record and substance. I am not saying that I think Warren necessarily would be best choice as Democratic candidate, but I could certainly live with it.

What I mean by populist is that she has a tremendous ability to connect to ordinary people. She can take complicated ideas and frame them in kitchen table terms. What was more remarkable about the debate was that she did well, and she is actually much better in town hall formats. And those will be important in Iowa and New Hampshire.

[Mumm-Ra]

Biden looks out of his depth. Not because he lacks the experience or knowledge, but because his age seems to be a burden. He seems slow, confused, and stumbles through even the simplest of words at times. He's up against opposition that's far more exuberant and hungrier than he seems to be. He's not sharp or precise. Even Sanders seems more up for it, and he's actually older. It's a shame because there's no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin back into Democratic hands during the general but at this rate he's not going to make it.

Agreed, he looked like a confused old man at times. I posted this in the other thread, but Pete stood out for me, and I loved this line in particular:

“We should call out hypocrisy when we see it. For a party that associates itself with Christianity to say that it is OK to suggest that God would smile on the division of families at the hands of federal agents, that God would condone putting children in cages has lost all claim to ever use religious language again.”

NOBODY calls them out on their hypocrisy, that should be a central theme. I know it probably won't move many voters but I'd love to see him up there debating Pence on this stuff. Just show this whole evangelist movement up for what it is

[Giono]

Agreed, he looked like a confused old man at times. I posted this in the other thread, but Pete stood out for me, and I loved this line in particular:

“We should call out hypocrisy when we see it. For a party that associates itself with Christianity to say that it is OK to suggest that God would smile on the division of families at the hands of federal agents, that God would condone putting children in cages has lost all claim to ever use religious language again.”

NOBODY calls them out on their hypocrisy, that should be a central theme. I know it probably won't move many voters but I'd love to see him up there debating Pence on this stuff. Just show this whole evangelist movement up for what it is

Agree. All the news is about busing in the 70s. Pete was calling them out on hypocrisy.

If Harris or Warren wins, I hope they chose him as an attack dog VP candidate.

[Libertine]

Agreed, he looked like a confused old man at times. I posted this in the other thread, but Pete stood out for me, and I loved this line in particular:

“We should call out hypocrisy when we see it. For a party that associates itself with Christianity to say that it is OK to suggest that God would smile on the division of families at the hands of federal agents, that God would condone putting children in cages has lost all claim to ever use religious language again.”

NOBODY calls them out on their hypocrisy, that should be a central theme. I know it probably won't move many voters but I'd love to see him up there debating Pence on this stuff. Just show this whole evangelist movement up for what it is

He can, and should, also destroy Trump on military service.

The mayor has done really well so far, but still probably needs a break out moment like Harris last night.

[ShakaHislop]

I just watched the 2nd debate on YouTube.

Harris', IMO, contrived outrage about Biden's comments regarding those Democratic senators really left a bad taste in the mouth for me. It feels like a really cheap shot to pander to those on the left of the party, which seems to have sadly worked.

Similarly, Swalwell came across as an ass with his "pass the torch" comments. I liked how he aimed it primarily at Biden but it was Sanders who pushed back more strongly against it. Swalwell got a bit of revenge later on when he pressed Sanders on his views on guns, the topic on which Sanders seemed to particularly struggle. Sanders suggestion of there being scope within the constitution to rotate the Supreme Court judges was interesting (no idea if it's true)

Hickenlooper and Bennet were playing to the left of the party noticeably less than most of the other candidates, which was refreshing. Gillibrand was the candidate that most seemed to be in the middle of the party and one of the candidates that went into the most policy detail.

At this stage, if I could vote, I'd be fine with Biden but if the torch has to pass ( ) then I'd be willing to jump on the Butteglig train, certainly more so than Harris.

[Red Beret]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Rm7viX6VmT4&amp;t=337s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Rm7viX6VmT4&amp;t=337s</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/nJNKmVEXuwI&amp;t=1073s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/nJNKmVEXuwI&amp;t=1073s</a>

[Giono]

	George Conway (@gtconway3d)
	2019-06-28, 7:20 AM Harris would annihilate Trump.

[ShakaHislop]

	George Conway (@gtconway3d)
	2019-06-28, 7:20 AM Harris would annihilate Trump.

Based on what?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Based on what?

id guess her background as a prosecutor is why?

[ShakaHislop]

id guess her background as a prosecutor is why?

If we're talking about "annhilation" in a debate, maybe. I don't see it helping her much in an election against him.

[Rob Dylan]

Just been watching some videos about yesterday's debate, I didn't realise that every one of them said they would give free healthcare to undocumented immigrants...are they crazy? That's such an open goal for Trump, why would they even think that would be a popular policy, especially in swing states? Can someone explain the rationale behind it? Or is it more complex than it's being portrayed. Add that to their support for eliminating private health insurance, and they risk turning the one area where Democrats have a clear advantage over Republicans - healthcare - into an area of weakness.

[Rob Dylan]

I just watched the 2nd debate on YouTube.

Harris', IMO, contrived outrage about Biden's comments regarding those Democratic senators really left a bad taste in the mouth for me. It feels like a really cheap shot to pander to those on the left of the party, which seems to have sadly worked.

Similarly, Swalwell came across as an ass with his "pass the torch" comments. I liked how he aimed it primarily at Biden but it was Sanders who pushed back more strongly against it. Swalwell got a bit of revenge later on when he pressed Sanders on his views on guns, the topic on which Sanders seemed to particularly struggle. Sanders suggestion of there being scope within the constitution to rotate the Supreme Court judges was interesting (no idea if it's true)

Hickenlooper and Bennet were playing to the left of the party noticeably less than most of the other candidates, which was refreshing. Gillibrand was the candidate that most seemed to be in the middle of the party and one of the candidates that went into the most policy detail.

At this stage, if I could vote, I'd be fine with Biden but if the torch has to pass ( ) then I'd be willing to jump on the Butteglig train, certainly more so than Harris.

Not really a fan of the outrage over Biden's remarks, but Harris has said very clearly that she doesn't think he's racist or anything, I think she was just trying to make the point that he's a bit out of touch. Hopefully that's the last we'll hear of it.

I think any combination of Harris / Warren / Buttigieg would be good. Hopefully Buttigieg gets the VP slot, would love to see him debate with Pence.

[Giono]

Based on what?

He always criticises Trump's psychological traits. Maybe he figures she will be Trump kryptonite.

[Giono]

Just been watching some videos about yesterday's debate, I didn't realise that every one of them said they would give free healthcare to undocumented immigrants...are they crazy? That's such an open goal for Trump, why would they even think that would be a popular policy, especially in swing states? Can someone explain the rationale behind it? Or is it more complex than it's being portrayed. Add that to their support for eliminating private health insurance, and they risk turning the one area where Democrats have a clear advantage over Republicans - healthcare - into an area of weakness.

Undocumented are covered now. They just go to hospitals when conditions are chronic and costly instead of going to a clinic. The healthcare debate is half-baked and not decided. I don't think they have any fear of creating problems.

Trump wanted to take millions off of healthcare...without a replacement. Where is his plan 4 years into his campaign and presidency? He has none. I don't think that the Dems need to get too defensive...

[ShakaHislop]

Not really a fan of the outrage over Biden's remarks, but Harris has said very clearly that she doesn't think he's racist or anything, I think she was just trying to make the point that he's a bit out of touch. Hopefully that's the last we'll hear of it.

I think any combination of Harris / Warren / Buttigieg would be good. Hopefully Buttigieg gets the VP slot, would love to see him debate with Pence.

Like how some people say "I'm not being racist but..." before going onto to say something racist. She knew what she was doing, down to the affected, emotional tone of voice she spoke with.

[Rob Dylan]

Undocumented are covered now. They just go to hospitals when conditions are chronic and costly instead of going to a clinic. The healthcare debate is half-baked and not decided. I don't think they have any fear of creating problems.

Trump wanted to take millions off of healthcare...without a replacement. Where is his plan 4 years into his campaign and presidency? He has none. I don't think that the Dems need to get too defensive...

So why are they talking about this like it's a new policy? Obviously Trump is terrible on healthcare but this, plus being able to say that people will be forced to give up their private health insurance, will allow him to deflect it back onto the Democrats.

[Giono]

So why are they talking about this like it's a new policy? Obviously Trump is terrible on healthcare but this, plus being able to say that people will be forced to give up their private health insurance, will allow him to deflect it back onto the Democrats.

It's a complicated thing. These debates are no place for full explanations.

It may be gradual with a medicare-type option first. Or it could gradually work down the age categories.

The problems with a dual system are many. Argentina has a dual public and private system for example. The problem there is that private systems rob the national system of the numbers of healthy people to counterbalance the unhealthy in their system. Private companies don't want to insure anyone who is a risk, like pre-existing conditions or the aged. Thise folks pile into the national system and those costs mount.

And for any business with high costs, the larger the scale the better. Ask all those fortune 500 companies merging together.

Nobody has made a real case for it. In the debate they had them raise their hand for a public option. Hardly an information session...

[Giono]

So why are they talking about this like it's a new policy? Obviously Trump is terrible on healthcare but this, plus being able to say that people will be forced to give up their private health insurance, will allow him to deflect it back onto the Democrats.

By the way, I'm very suspicious of the media's agenda re healthcare. Have you seen CNN in the US? It's drug companies and health providers paying their freight. They will lose a lot of ad revenue. One of the reasons that drug prices are lower in a country like Canada for example is that they can't advertise in Canada.

[Something Worse]

By the way, I'm very suspicious of the media's agenda re healthcare. Have you seen CNN in the US? It's drug companies and health providers paying their freight. They will lose a lot of ad revenue. One of the reasons that drug prices are lower in a country like Canada for example is that they can't advertise in Canada.

The amount of changes needed to untangle special interests from every aspect of American life is beyond comprehension. Bernie could start on day one, work on it every day for two terms, and still need a successor.

[Giono]

The amount of changes needed to untangle special interests from every aspect of American life is beyond comprehension. Bernie could start on day one, work on it every day for two terms, and still need a successor.

Taiwan even went single payer. It's doable.


It can be sold to small and medium sized businesses. They and their employees get the same healthcare as the big companies. Ununionised gets the same as unionised. Single payer allows you to leave a dead end job at a big company and start your own or move to a startup. It allows people to work part-time, go back to school, take care of kids or the elderly, or work freelance. Single payer is a great match for the modern shifting economy.


It can be sold to businesspeople.