Author Topic: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK  (Read 32750 times)

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #40 on: July 5, 2018, 07:17:54 pm »
'A vial or a syringe'
BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera said that because the highest concentration of Novichok was found on the couple's hands, police believe the item they handled could be a container or reciprocal that was used to carry the nerve agent.

He said the most likely hypothesis is that the Novichok was left over from an item discarded after the attack on the Skripals.

The BBC's home affairs correspondent June Kelly said it has been suggested the item "could be a vial or syringe because of the couple's lifestyle".

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #41 on: July 5, 2018, 07:23:35 pm »
'A vial or a syringe'
BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera said that because the highest concentration of Novichok was found on the couple's hands, police believe the item they handled could be a container or reciprocal that was used to carry the nerve agent.

He said the most likely hypothesis is that the Novichok was left over from an item discarded after the attack on the Skripals.

The BBC's home affairs correspondent June Kelly said it has been suggested the item "could be a vial or syringe because of the couple's lifestyle".

A lovely way to tell the world they're smackheads!

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #42 on: July 5, 2018, 07:27:06 pm »
A lovely way to tell the world they're smackheads!
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #43 on: July 5, 2018, 07:47:26 pm »
An unexpected detox program..
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #44 on: July 5, 2018, 08:19:08 pm »
'A vial or a syringe'
BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera said that because the highest concentration of Novichok was found on the couple's hands, police believe the item they handled could be a container or reciprocal that was used to carry the nerve agent.

He said the most likely hypothesis is that the Novichok was left over from an item discarded after the attack on the Skripals.

The BBC's home affairs correspondent June Kelly said it has been suggested the item "could be a vial or syringe because of the couple's lifestyle".

That answers a lot of questions and hopefully will provide a few leads.

Unless of course you don’t believe it was the Russians in which case this development makes no sense at all.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #45 on: July 5, 2018, 08:23:46 pm »
A lovely way to tell the world they're smackheads!

What, so they just picked up a random syringe to use? No need these days with needle exchanges.

They’ve made that guess based on the fact they use drugs. It sounds ridiculous to me. “Oh, let’s jack up with this vial and syringe I found on the floor in salisbury.”

Also, what sort of dickhead carrying out an attack leaves the evidence behind...



« Last Edit: July 5, 2018, 08:29:07 pm by Peabee »
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #46 on: July 5, 2018, 08:28:45 pm »
What, so they just picked up a random syringe to use? No need these days with needle exchanges.

Who said it’s to use? They might have picked up whatever it was because it looked ‘medical’ or ‘druggy’ and had something in it. Back in my youth I knew people who would try anything if they needed a fix.
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Offline Peabee

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #47 on: July 5, 2018, 08:32:59 pm »
Who said it’s to use? They might have picked up whatever it was because it looked ‘medical’ or ‘druggy’ and had something in it. Back in my youth I knew people who would try anything if they needed a fix.

I’ve been through drug treatment programmes and I’ve never met anyone who has picked up some random vial to fix up with. If they have, they’re bloody daft.

It would be more realistic if it turns out someone else found it then sold it to them under the pretence it was, eg, heroin.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #48 on: July 5, 2018, 08:35:36 pm »
Or they spotted it and were off to stick it in the bin.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #49 on: July 5, 2018, 08:43:10 pm »
That answers a lot of questions and hopefully will provide a few leads.

Unless of course you don’t believe it was the Russians in which case this development makes no sense at all.

Yup, whatever the container was.... it would be useful for the police to acquire it, firstly to ensure public safety however secondly it could offer some further clues as to the origin of the agent used.

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #50 on: July 5, 2018, 09:07:48 pm »
I’ve been through drug treatment programmes and I’ve never met anyone who has picked up some random vial to fix up with. If they have, they’re bloody daft.

It would be more realistic if it turns out someone else found it then sold it to them under the pretence it was, eg, heroin.

That last thought is fucking frightening.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #51 on: July 5, 2018, 09:37:51 pm »
Maybe it was a syringe but why dump a syringe on open ground,why not some bushes or some overgrown land, it's more likely to just be a container that's caught their eye and they've picked it up thinking it's worth a few bob. opened it up, passed it to each other to have a look at and then decided won't get much for that and just dumped it. simple as that.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #52 on: July 5, 2018, 10:02:35 pm »
I’ve been through drug treatment programmes and I’ve never met anyone who has picked up some random vial to fix up with. If they have, they’re bloody daft.

It would be more realistic if it turns out someone else found it then sold it to them under the pretence it was, eg, heroin.

You think it's more likely that they picked it up to sell to someone else? That's possible too I suppose.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #53 on: July 5, 2018, 10:05:11 pm »
Maybe it was a syringe but why dump a syringe on open ground,why not some bushes or some overgrown land, it's more likely to just be a container that's caught their eye and they've picked it up thinking it's worth a few bob. opened it up, passed it to each other to have a look at and then decided won't get much for that and just dumped it. simple as that.


We don't know it was a syringe or where it was dumped. The Russians who killed Litvinenko poured Polonium down the sink and left traces across London. If you're killing someone with a nerve agent in public why would you be worried about the what you do with the containers etc.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #54 on: July 5, 2018, 10:46:35 pm »

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #55 on: July 5, 2018, 11:01:19 pm »
We don't know it was a syringe or where it was dumped. The Russians who killed Litvinenko poured Polonium down the sink and left traces across London. If you're killing someone with a nerve agent in public why would you be worried about the what you do with the containers etc.

Yes that was my point, others are suggesting it was a syringe as some experts say a syringe may have been used to contaminate the door handles. so people assume they just chucked the syringe somewhere on open ground which dosen't add up. the only reason to do this is would be to incite a backlash from the British government. maybe but I doubt it.
Their bosses in Russia are sending a message to other dissidents, they know the UK know their behind the attack but how far are we prepared to go when it's just 2 Russian dissidents.
 I would imagine anyone who orginised the Salisbury attack will be getting his arse smacked. why push the UK government into a position were they have to react far more strongly than they would like too. did they want this or did someone cock up.
We know the Russians have always had this thing about sending a message by poisoning people.
Ive no idea what the people who organized the attack on Litvenko thought but I imagine some dick head back in Russia got his arse kicked, seems more of a botched amateurism job to me rather than just not giving a shit.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2018, 11:06:17 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #56 on: July 5, 2018, 11:20:16 pm »

Yes that was my point, others are suggesting it was a syringe as some experts say a syringe may have been used to contaminate the door handles. so people assume they just chucked the syringe somewhere on open ground which dosen't add up. the only reason to do this is would be to incite a backlash from the British government. maybe but I doubt it.
Their bosses in Russia are sending a message to other dissidents, they know the UK know their behind the attack but how far are we prepared to go when it's just 2 Russian dissidents.
 I would imagine anyone who orginised the Salisbury attack will be getting his arse smacked. why push the UK government into a position were they have to react far more strongly than they would like too. did they want this or did someone cock up.
We know the Russians have always had this thing about sending a message by poisoning people.
Ive no idea what the people who organized the attack on Litvenko thought but I imagine some dick head back in Russia got his arse kicked, seems more of a botched amateurism job to me rather than just not giving a shit.

I think it was a panaroma episode i watched which seemed to create a possible logical narrative for Russia's behaviour. For the largest landmass on the planet they have an economy which is weaker than Italy....and actually they standard of living in Russia isn't that fantastic, so their domestic policies you would imagine - expect to be under scrutiny by the public. However with their state controlled media, dissidents and political opponents nullified through a variety of measures.... the foreign policy and notion the big bad west is out to get them becomes a distraction for the general public away from domestic issues and Putin continues to hold onto power, which is the ultimate goal here.

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #57 on: July 5, 2018, 11:34:39 pm »
I think it was a panaroma episode i watched which seemed to create a possible logical narrative for Russia's behaviour. For the largest landmass on the planet they have an economy which is weaker than Italy....and actually they standard of living in Russia isn't that fantastic, so their domestic policies you would imagine - expect to be under scrutiny by the public. However with their state controlled media, dissidents and political opponents nullified through a variety of measures.... the foreign policy and notion the big bad west is out to get them becomes a distraction for the general public away from domestic issues and Putin continues to hold onto power, which is the ultimate goal here.
Russia is rotten to the core, the powerful people make the mafia look like beginners. nothing gets done without backhanders which is why Putin can buy Trump 10 times over.  Russian people should enjoy a very good standard of living, the country is over flowing with natural resources.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #58 on: July 6, 2018, 09:12:11 am »
A lovely way to tell the world they're smackheads!

They are though. Not that the world needs to know, but they are.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #59 on: July 6, 2018, 12:45:41 pm »
This story gives new meaning to "needle in a haystack"!

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #60 on: July 6, 2018, 12:57:07 pm »
Ive no idea what the people who organized the attack on Litvenko thought but I imagine some dick head back in Russia got his arse kicked, seems more of a botched amateurism job to me rather than just not giving a shit.

Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, but could have prosecuted the chap we think did it (Andrey Lugovoy, former KGB/FSB) using any evidence we send their prosecutors. So just to make sure they made him an MP - and Russian MPs have immunity to prosecution. Not quite a medal but certainly no sign of a court martial.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #61 on: July 6, 2018, 04:12:23 pm »
Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, but could have prosecuted the chap we think did it (Andrey Lugovoy, former KGB/FSB) using any evidence we send their prosecutors. So just to make sure they made him an MP - and Russian MPs have immunity to prosecution. Not quite a medal but certainly no sign of a court martial.
Yeah, there still going to back him publicly. it does make you wonder why they've acted like amateurs, what happened to the days of just stabbing someone with a poisoned umbrella tip. am sure Russia have assassinated many people over the years but many go undetected so you have to wonder why they are leaving traces of WMD everywhere. are the attacks badly orginised or are the Russians sending a more subtle message to the UK.
Any crisis would not take us straight to nuclear war, the first stage would be a cyber attack, maybe the next stage would be chemical warfare. they are showing us how they have no qualms about poisoning the British public. there is method behind the madness, they are showing us just what their capable of doing.
« Last Edit: July 6, 2018, 04:17:38 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #62 on: July 6, 2018, 04:33:09 pm »
Yeah, there still going to back him publicly. it does make you wonder why they've acted like amateurs, what happened to the days of just stabbing someone with a poisoned umbrella tip. am sure Russia have assassinated many people over the years but many go undetected so you have to wonder why they are leaving traces of WMD everywhere. are the attacks badly orginised or are the Russians sending a more subtle message to the UK.
Any crisis would not take us straight to nuclear war, the first stage would be a cyber attack, maybe the next stage would be chemical warfare. they are showing us how they have no qualms about poisoning the British public. there is method behind the madness, they are showing us just what their capable of doing.

Oh definitely. The substances being used leave no mistake about who is behind them (well, you know...). And it would seem bizarre if the consequences of using them in public spaces wasn't also known beforehand. To my mind, that seems to be uncaring (or even part of the 'message') rather than amateur hour for the KGB FSB.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #63 on: July 6, 2018, 04:45:15 pm »
Oh definitely. The substances being used leave no mistake about who is behind them (well, you know...). And it would seem bizarre if the consequences of using them in public spaces wasn't also known beforehand. To my mind, that seems to be uncaring (or even part of the 'message') rather than amateur hour for the KGB FSB.
Yeah, it's definitely more about sending a message to dissidents, you wonder if the Russians are thinking. lets send a message to the UK while were at it.
I was reading books over 25 yrs ago which covered Russian assassinations abroad, a lot of these assassinations went undetected. they are experts at this sort of thing so why are these assassinations so amateurish.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #64 on: July 6, 2018, 06:42:31 pm »
Surely this item couldn't have been far from the site of the original attack?  Knowing what it's capable of, and not wanting to handle it needlessly or carelessly, if you've just mixed this shit and it's ready to use the last thing you'd want is to be hawking the container around with you.  You'd ditch it at the very first opportunity.

So why has it taken two random junkies to find it?
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #65 on: July 6, 2018, 07:03:24 pm »
..So why has it taken two random junkies to find it?

Pure speculation, but one explanation could be they'd been on the rob or they associate with people who do.

He was up before the beak a few years ago for theft and drugs possession.

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #66 on: July 6, 2018, 07:22:15 pm »
Pure speculation, but one explanation could be they'd been on the rob or they associate with people who do.

He was up before the beak a few years ago for theft and drugs possession.

But it's months since the Skripal attack.  If I was a Russian agent and ditched whatever it is I used, somebody must have picked it up sharpish for the security services to miss it.  And then they've held onto it until recently?  Until these two robbed it?  The only other alternative is that it was left at or near the scene and it's been completely missed until now.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #67 on: July 6, 2018, 10:36:50 pm »
But it's months since the Skripal attack.  If I was a Russian agent and ditched whatever it is I used, somebody must have picked it up sharpish for the security services to miss it.  And then they've held onto it until recently?  Until these two robbed it?  The only other alternative is that it was left at or near the scene and it's been completely missed until now.

Or the agent who carried out the attack took the vial or whatever with him when he/she left Salisbury and dumped it miles away. Chuck it over a wall, in a skip, down an alley...  the couple are said to go dumpster-diving and would look in places most of us wouldn’t go.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #68 on: July 6, 2018, 10:37:49 pm »
Or the agent who carried out the attack took the vial or whatever with him when he/she left Salisbury and dumped it miles away. Chuck it over a wall, in a skip, down an alley...  the couple are said to go dumpster-diving and would look in places most of us wouldn’t go.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #69 on: July 6, 2018, 10:42:16 pm »
Pure speculation, but one explanation could be they'd been on the rob or they associate with people who do.

He was up before the beak a few years ago for theft and drugs possession.



Adding to your specualation.. If one was to wonder what crossover there might be between people who injects drugs and assassins, another likely option would be abandoned/derelict spaces that the general public don't go near

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #70 on: July 6, 2018, 10:43:31 pm »
Or the agent who carried out the attack took the vial or whatever with him when he/she left Salisbury and dumped it miles away. Chuck it over a wall, in a skip, down an alley...  the couple are said to go dumpster-diving and would look in places most of us wouldn’t go.

I totally get that, but my original point was that surely an agent likely would want to get shut asap?  Once it was "hot" and been used I have a hard time imagining they'd keep it in their pocket for even a couple of miles.

I guess that logic rules in this situation though.  Hard to believe it's been lying in a dumpster for this long, but I suppose it's possible if it wasn't emptied.  Guess we'll only know for sure if/when the victims recover.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #71 on: July 7, 2018, 01:47:26 pm »
I totally get that, but my original point was that surely an agent likely would want to get shut asap?  Once it was "hot" and been used I have a hard time imagining they'd keep it in their pocket for even a couple of miles.

I guess that logic rules in this situation though.  Hard to believe it's been lying in a dumpster for this long, but I suppose it's possible if it wasn't emptied.  Guess we'll only know for sure if/when the victims recover.

I can’t really respond because like everyone else, I don’t know who they were or how they would behave or be told to behave.

And ‘dumpster diving’ is about their lifestyle rather than saying the vial (or whatever it was) was actually in a dumpster. It’s about looking in places most wouldn’t go to find discarded stuff.

In the days of the internet most of you won’t know about ‘hedgeporn’. Young lads would look in hedges and woods to find jazzmags left by others. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hedge%20porn  Same kind of thing.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #72 on: July 7, 2018, 08:18:11 pm »
I can’t really respond because like everyone else, I don’t know who they were or how they would behave or be told to behave.

And ‘dumpster diving’ is about their lifestyle rather than saying the vial (or whatever it was) was actually in a dumpster. It’s about looking in places most wouldn’t go to find discarded stuff.

In the days of the internet most of you won’t know about ‘hedgeporn’. Young lads would look in hedges and woods to find jazzmags left by others. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hedge%20porn  Same kind of thing.

In the 50s the equivalent of "hedge porn" was jazz mags discarded in bombed out houses.

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #73 on: July 7, 2018, 10:03:33 pm »
I can’t really respond because like everyone else, I don’t know who they were or how they would behave or be told to behave.

And ‘dumpster diving’ is about their lifestyle rather than saying the vial (or whatever it was) was actually in a dumpster. It’s about looking in places most wouldn’t go to find discarded stuff.

In the days of the internet most of you won’t know about ‘hedgeporn’. Young lads would look in hedges and woods to find jazzmags left by others. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hedge%20porn  Same kind of thing.

Understood and agree.  As I said we'll only know if/when the victims recover, but if it comes to pass that they've found this item recently, you'd imagine big questions will be asked of the security forces, even if it was in an unexpected place. 

More likely it was collected soon after the attack, which would explain why it was missed but not explain why it didn't harm them until now, other than they just picked it up randomly and only just got around to opening it.

Wonder what their condition currently is?  Might give some indication as to the dose that was left.  And do they now have the item in question?
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #74 on: July 7, 2018, 10:09:15 pm »
If this is confirmed, it is getting really worrying now.

Police officer undergoing testing at Salisbury District Hospital after Amesbury nerve agent incident  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/salisbury-amesbury-nerve-agent-attack-novichok-police-officer-hospital-admitted-a8436761.html
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #75 on: July 8, 2018, 01:54:30 am »
Adding to your specualation.. If one was to wonder what crossover there might be between people who injects drugs and assassins, another likely option would be abandoned/derelict spaces that the general public don't go near

:lmao

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #76 on: July 8, 2018, 01:57:43 am »
Or the agent who carried out the attack took the vial or whatever with him when he/she left Salisbury and dumped it miles away. Chuck it over a wall, in a skip, down an alley...  the couple are said to go dumpster-diving and would look in places most of us wouldn’t go.

Hahaha. Kinell. 

Let me guess, someone in your youth did that? ;-)

« Last Edit: July 8, 2018, 02:08:42 am by Peabee »
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #77 on: July 8, 2018, 06:03:22 am »
Russia have form for this shit, but I'm in the *wait until there's tangible proof* before apportioning blame myself.

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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #78 on: July 8, 2018, 12:41:20 pm »
Russia have form for this shit, but I'm in the *wait until there's tangible proof* before apportioning blame myself.
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Re: New Nerve Agent Attack in UK
« Reply #79 on: July 8, 2018, 01:32:43 pm »
:lmao

You watch too many films, I think is the saying...

Bit unnecessary mate, haven't said anything outlandish.

Was late joining a conversation (openly) speculating about how these two victims could have crossed paths with those committing the initial attacks. Was merely adding to Gulley's speculation about criminal association, and politely disagreeing with previous poster's dumpster diving speculation. I wasn't for a second saying they've definitely chanced upon some of the agent in a vial.

As you've mentioned you have lived experience with drug treatment, and I work in the drugs public health sector, so we both know from our personal experience that people who inject drugs often do so in quiet enclosed derelict spaces - not exactly laughable (or a laughably outlandish statement).