Topic: Anfield Road Extension - Construction work resumed on 12th September 2023.

[CraigDS]

how did you spend the 125k he paid you to move out of anfield area in case they need the land to build another main stand tier in 2045

I've donated that to the WBR Kop wormhole portal fund.

[cdav]

https://youtu.be/csbcx60IFmI

New Paul Frost video, some nice detail as ever

[stueya]

I think one point being missed in the discussion around how any further expansion could be achieved is the issue of the area travel infrastructure, if I remember rightly back in the heady days of H&G and the 70K monstrosity they proposed was that any proposal beyond 65K would mean major investment by the club and local authority into how they would managed the movement of people into and out of the area- I’m certain without it then it would never have gained planning permission
I’m sure the potential proposal involved the rebuilding and reopening of the old Bootle line with a couple of new stations built(one was proposed to be on Utting Ave)- the issue then even in the noughties was the cost could be anything up to £200m which totally rules out an expansion given it would push total costs to in excess of £400m just for an extra 6-7k seats- a number that would take years and years to recover costs

[LOHAG]

What is the official line from the club on the opening of the new ARE?
Opening for the 23/24 season is what i remember? The key words missing from that is the 'start of'.
So have they given themselves flexibility for it to be opened at some point within the season?
Obviously we don't get a good look inside, other than Drone's footage from a week or so ago, but fitting out a building of that size is going to take a long time. Plus all the facades to make it water tight. Add to that the removal of the old and tieing in.
An early shout for me is that i cannot see the stand ready for August 12th, but perhaps that was never the plan.

[Crosby Nick]

The Main Stand opened in September when we played Leicester didn’t it? We swapped that home game with Burnley to away so played the first 3 (I think?) away from home that season. Could we do something similar assuming it’ll be easy close to the start of the season?

[cdav]

Being open and fully completed are two different things I guess, all the club will care about is being able to put bums on seats for the game

[meady1981]

Being open and fully completed are two different things I guess, all the club will care about is being able to put bums on seats for the game

Weren't the players still getting changed in the car park for about 6 months after the main opened

[Matt S]

I think one point being missed in the discussion around how any further expansion could be achieved is the issue of the area travel infrastructure, if I remember rightly back in the heady days of H&G and the 70K monstrosity they proposed was that any proposal beyond 65K would mean major investment by the club and local authority into how they would managed the movement of people into and out of the area- I’m certain without it then it would never have gained planning permission
I’m sure the potential proposal involved the rebuilding and reopening of the old Bootle line with a couple of new stations built(one was proposed to be on Utting Ave)- the issue then even in the noughties was the cost could be anything up to £200m which totally rules out an expansion given it would push total costs to in excess of £400m just for an extra 6-7k seats- a number that would take years and years to recover costs

Easiest thing to do is knock all the houses down and make a giant car park. Problem solved no?

[kopite321]

Mr Drone has just released his latest drone footage, first part of the facade has been installed at the KDS end. Terracing close to completion Main-stand end also

https://youtu.be/dNQsbylmyZQ

[reddazforever]

Let's remember that those houses have people in them. People have lives, and they don't like having their lives disrupted. I'm sure most of us here have moved house at least once and most will agree it's a pretty stressful experience, even when it goes smoothly. We shouldn't Anfield residents as inconvenient cattle, to be moved on to another field, like it's no trouble at all.

Spot on, but if you offered each of those home owners £500k for their property and offered to build them new homes a few hundred yards away on the piece of land originally set aside for the hotel the actual cost to the club is not huge. Only 62 homes on Skerries and the side of Wylva that a replica main stand would need. Capacity would rise to 69,000 overall and all 3 tiers would have much better leg room and excellent facilities so a win win for all.  You’re talking just £50-60m to buy the 3 rows of houses and build new homes for each homeowner plus they would all be £500k better off.  How many people do we honestly think would say no to that? 

[meady1981]

First off, you’re talking about a club who tried to furlough staff during Covid.
Secondly, if the club revealed themselves as so desperate for my house that they’d pay me 500k, I’d tell them I want 800.

[Peter McGurk]

I think one point being missed in the discussion around how any further expansion could be achieved is the issue of the area travel infrastructure, if I remember rightly back in the heady days of H&G and the 70K monstrosity they proposed was that any proposal beyond 65K would mean major investment by the club and local authority into how they would managed the movement of people into and out of the area- I’m certain without it then it would never have gained planning permission
I’m sure the potential proposal involved the rebuilding and reopening of the old Bootle line with a couple of new stations built(one was proposed to be on Utting Ave)- the issue then even in the noughties was the cost could be anything up to £200m which totally rules out an expansion given it would push total costs to in excess of £400m just for an extra 6-7k seats- a number that would take years and years to recover costs

Where've you been..? Seriously. Try the choo-choo thread

[cdav]

Imagine another 7k people in attendance for performances like yesterday, going to be great next season

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

Spot on, but if you offered each of those home owners £500k for their property and offered to build them new homes a few hundred yards away on the piece of land originally set aside for the hotel the actual cost to the club is not huge. Only 62 homes on Skerries and the side of Wylva that a replica main stand would need. Capacity would rise to 69,000 overall and all 3 tiers would have much better leg room and excellent facilities so a win win for all.  You’re talking just £50-60m to buy the 3 rows of houses and build new homes for each homeowner plus they would all be £500k better off.  How many people do we honestly think would say no to that?

Main stand 20,676
New KDS 20,676
ARE 15,967
Kop 12,850

= 70,000 to see regular cricket scores against the Mancs 

[CraigDS]

Spot on, but if you offered each of those home owners £500k for their property and offered to build them new homes a few hundred yards away on the piece of land originally set aside for the hotel the actual cost to the club is not huge. Only 62 homes on Skerries and the side of Wylva that a replica main stand would need. Capacity would rise to 69,000 overall and all 3 tiers would have much better leg room and excellent facilities so a win win for all.  You’re talking just £50-60m to buy the 3 rows of houses and build new homes for each homeowner plus they would all be £500k better off.  How many people do we honestly think would say no to that?

So given the Main cost £140m, and prices have gone up since, we'd be looking at what - £220m build cost?

Add to that we likely couldn't do what we did with the main we'd likely have at least a season without the Upper, so that's a bit over 4,500 off the capacity (a good chunk of them corps) and likely the boxes gone too. So we'd have a lack of income from those to add on.

Then we'd have to consider if there is demand enough to do what the Main did, which is add a huge number of corps which bring in a much higher amount per seat and makes the numbers work. Do we have demand to add a huge number more?

[The Cobbler]

The main problem to bigger capacity is simply lack of increased public transport.

Unfortunately this is highly unlikely to be fixed anytime soon. LCC will not give
planning permission for any development taking our capacity over 62k without a
new transport plan. The area around the stadium cannot cope now with car traffic on
match days.

Nobody has the money for trams or a reopening of the Bootle branch railway line.

The owners know this. Development of the SKD stand is not on their agenda.

[Stevo]

The SKD is staying as it is size wise but it would be great to see some improvements to the concourses which just aren’t fit for the 21st century. They’re tired and get dangerously crowded at half time. If we can’t increase capacity in terms of seats it would be good if we could do some sort of expansion and renovation of the concourses. I guess the cost would be prohibitive for next to no financial gain though.

I’m sure the hospitality lounges must a bit dated compared to the main stand and what’s to come in the ARE too. Weird to think it’s our oldest stand, I remember looking at it in 1992 thinking it was like something from the future.

[Peter McGurk]

The main problem to bigger capacity is simply lack of increased public transport.

Unfortunately this is highly unlikely to be fixed anytime soon. LCC will not give
planning permission for any development taking our capacity over 62k without a
new transport plan. The area around the stadium cannot cope now with car traffic on
match days.

Nobody has the money for trams or a reopening of the Bootle branch railway line.

The owners know this. Development of the SKD stand is not on their agenda.

Transport is not the issue. There is a Traffic Management Plan to satisfy any demand. It wouldn't involve Bootle branches or trams or highways in the sky. It would involve management. Clue's in the name.

So given the Main cost £140m, and prices have gone up since, we'd be looking at what - £220m build cost?

Add to that we likely couldn't do what we did with the main we'd likely have at least a season without the Upper, so that's a bit over 4,500 off the capacity (a good chunk of them corps) and likely the boxes gone too. So we'd have a lack of income from those to add on.

Then we'd have to consider if there is demand enough to do what the Main did, which is add a huge number of corps which bring in a much higher amount per seat and makes the numbers work. Do we have demand to add a huge number more?

The economics are the issues.

Back in the day the SKD had the most hospitality seats and hence the least potential to grow income. This compounded by the cost and the loss of revenue during construction.

The Main Stand had the most potential for growth, a 'reasonable' cost per additional seat and could be done without any loss of revenue.

The initial revenue projections have been well-exceeded but this is largely down to (a successful team and) the number of games played as a result and that's been a bit of a surprise. £45m was projected to grow to £72m but has turned into nigh on £100m.

Can the club really do that again especially when the SKD contributes so much already? The low-hanging fruit is behind us.

[meady1981]

This lads droning is all over the place and questionably legal.
But it does on the flipside give a good indication of just how big the stand is when seen further away - and how well it blends in with the SKD and Kop

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/uDZ_ZQzZBDM&amp;t=176s&amp;ab" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/uDZ_ZQzZBDM&amp;t=176s&amp;ab</a>

[meady1981]

As far as I’m aware, yes it’s possible.
But no expansion or extension is going to happen whilst the houses are there.
They’re not going anywhere anytime soon.
That’s pretty much it really.

This isn't aimed at anyone on here.
But I'm fascinated with the phenomena of the modern internet fans thirst for stadium expansion.
Id say half the comments on every single drone video is about further expansion. At whatever the cost, or moral and physical implications.
And they're all doing it whilst completely ignoring the actual incredible expansion that's happening before their very eyes.
I'm convinced that the majority of these people want it so the stadium just looks more symmetrical. Or for some size pissing contest on twitter.
Either way they will never set foot in the ground once it's done.

'Future proofing' is also a new buzzword. One of the drone guys did the new Wrexham Kop development the other day and one guy (not a Wrexham fan btw) was adamant it was a waste of money and was shameful the owners hadn't moved to a new stadium to future-proof corporate growth as the immediate area has too much housing around it. Because thats what 'all the top clubs are doing'. It's fucking Wrexham! Ryan Reynolds or not.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I think it’s a bit like transfers. It’s also a bit like kids where they’re straight onto the next thing without appreciating the here and now.

I remember the 50,000 plus crowds from the seventies and never thought we’d see that figure again, especially after the age we were stuck at 44,000 for, but since 2016 50,000 + has been the norm.

I hoped we’d see more than the 56,000 we used to get for big games, and once again we’ll exceed that figure and maybe knock on the door of 60,000.

The ground looks so much better from the outside, which will improve further when the ARE is finished. I agree despite the size of the 2 new stands, it looks pretty balanced and certainly nothing like Newcastles does.

60,000 without having to move and leave behind everything the place is, without incurring massive debt is about the best outcome we could hope for. It hasn’t been plain sailing with the local community, which is why comments about only needing to knock down x more houses to expand are a bit distasteful.

It’s also a bit annoying, despite all the efforts made on here to educate on the economics of stadium construction, to see comments about how  future development would “only” cost £x more.

[Son of Spion]

...This isn't aimed at anyone on here.
But I'm fascinated with the phenomena of the modern internet fans thirst for stadium expansion.
Id say half the comments on every single drone video is about further expansion. At whatever the cost, or moral and physical implications. And they're all doing it whilst completely ignoring the actual incredible expansion that's happening before their very eyes...

I think it mirrors the modern age. So many people do not live in and cannot appreciate the moment. They also seem to think life is like a game on the internet. Playing fantasy football manager over transfers then thinking their fantasies should also be their reality, without once considering where the money might come from.

Then we have the fantasy football stadium builder. They look at an aerial shot of the ground then decide this street and those businesses can go, without ever considering that real human beings live and work in them. Costs are rarely genuinely considered and neither is the fact that their fantasies becoming real would impact on so many real people.

I don't suppose it helps when we have let sportswashers into our game though. Because they don't care about people and they don't care about the game either. So they can play fantasy football club owner for real. Others look on and feel their own clu's should also be morally bankrupt so they get to indulge in their fantasies too.

People don't matter. Communities don't matter. All that matters is a dick-swinging capacity and a symmetrical roofline. Oh, and the new Messi up front with Bellingham in the middle. Who really cares how we achieve that, so long as we do?

Give people what they want and they always want more. Give them the Earth and they want the Moon as well. Give them both and they'll ignore them while casting longing glances towards some distant star instead. So many are too concerned with what they want, to appreciate what they have. It seems to be the way of the world these days.

[Thepooloflife]

This lads droning is all over the place and questionably legal.
But it does on the flipside give a good indication of just how big the stand is when seen further away - and how well it blends in with the SKD and Kop

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/uDZ_ZQzZBDM&amp;t=176s&amp;ab" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/uDZ_ZQzZBDM&amp;t=176s&amp;ab</a>

Nice singing voice and music though....

[The Cobbler]

The new ARE when completed is going to look amazing. Like the Main Stand’s smart little brother!

Fully agree with recent posters about the stupidity of so many people going on about extending the SKD Stand. Enjoy the moment and appreciate just how much the Stadium has evolved since 2016.

I can remember thinking that we would never ever exceed the record attendance of 61K plus set in the 1950’s. When we got to 56k in the mid-70’s after the first Main Stand extension, it seemed like that was it. The ground was still 75% standing and as restrictions and all seater stadiums came in after 1989 it seemed we would be stuck around the 45K mark.

I find it quite distasteful to see people on here (many who I suspect will never set foot in Anfield) talking about knocking down houses in Wylva and Skerries like it’s some computer game. The club did a pretty shoddy job of clearing out the housing for both the SKD stand in the late 80’s/early 90’s and then for the Main Stand from the early 2000’s. 

Remember how the streets around Anfield looked for years. Like something out of rioting and burned out houses in Belfast during the troubles! It was horrendous. People felt compelled to leave as their streets deteriorated before their eyes.

The club alienated the entire local community with its insensitive tactics. The current owners have acknowledged this and rebuilt bridges with the local people. But it is still sensitive as recent proposals for extra events like concerts have shown.

These are people’s lives, families, memories we are talking about. They are not pieces to be moved some fantasy development chessboard!

I personally love the fact the stadium is not beautifully aligned. I love its angles and imperfections. It’s our home and world famous.  Yes it would be great if it was bigger but 62k will do for me right now!

[afc tukrish]

I personally love the fact the stadium is not beautifully aligned. I love its angles and imperfections. It’s our home and world famous. 

Agree completely, it's not an identikit corporate bowl plopped down somewhere.

Unique in so many different ways...

[meady1981]

It's massively complex issue.
Worth a watch.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7w_mrpCweKM&amp;ab" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7w_mrpCweKM&amp;ab</a>

[classycarra]

Agree completely, it's not an identikit corporate bowl plopped down somewhere.

Unique in so many different ways...

Yep, hands down one of the best things of FSG's time as custodians is preventing us from moving grounds into some Reebok Stadium Emirates bowl - retained the clubs and stadiums character and soul by maintaining all the idiosyncrasies and imperfections.

Like Meady I'm dubious about the prospects of adding more capacity just for the sake of making it bigger/'better' too.

After the ARE what really matters is enhancing whats there (for proper seats/rail seats, not corporates - they're paying for the name, and I don't care how faceless businesses who buy the boxes feel), the local area (maybe buy that plot of land, donate it to someone who'll legally have to develop it into social housing and amenities?) and transport network improvements

[Yorkykopite]

Yep, hands down one of the best things of FSG's time as custodians is preventing us from moving grounds into some Reebok Stadium Emirates bowl - retained the clubs and stadiums character and soul by maintaining all the idiosyncrasies and imperfections.

Like Meady I'm dubious about the prospects of adding more capacity just for the sake of making it bigger/'better' too.

After the ARE what really matters is enhancing whats there (for proper seats/rail seats, not corporates - they're paying for the name, and I don't care how faceless businesses who buy the boxes feel), the local area (maybe buy that plot of land, donate it to someone who'll legally have to develop it into social housing and amenities?) and transport network improvements

Absolutely agree. I love the fact that we occupy the same ground as we've always done. Even moving into the park, as the cowboys "wanted" us to do, would have spoilt things. The classic, English football-ground shape remains of course, with 4 distinct sides of differing character, and that is nice. The fact that we won't have two massive screens showing replays is also a very welcome plus.

For those of us who remember, and love, the old Spion Kop it is now a bit weird to see how the Kop end has become the smallest stand in the ground. When I first started going the capacity was 56,000 with exactly half of that total amassed behind one goal. I guess the old Kop will always be, in terms of capacity, the greatest stand ever built at Anfield. It's an odd thing it so dwarfed now.

[stueya]

Transport is not the issue. There is a Traffic Management Plan to satisfy any demand. It wouldn't involve Bootle branches or trams or highways in the sky. It would involve management. Clue's in the name.


The economics are the issues.

Back in the day the SKD had the most hospitality seats and hence the least potential to grow income. This compounded by the cost and the loss of revenue during construction.

The Main Stand had the most potential for growth, a 'reasonable' cost per additional seat and could be done without any loss of revenue.

The initial revenue projections have been well-exceeded but this is largely down to (a successful team and) the number of games played as a result and that's been a bit of a surprise. £45m was projected to grow to £72m but has turned into nigh on £100m.

Can the club really do that again especially when the SKD contributes so much already? The low-hanging fruit is behind us.

Please enlighten us on the aforementioned TM plan?, outside of a mass transit option such as the old Bootle line I really struggle see how other ways of managing the movement of people is going to manage an additional 10k people in an area which is at breaking point in different areas of the City on match days, routes back into town can’t cope now, the drive can’t cope now, the east lancs can’t cope now

[Peter McGurk]

Please enlighten us on the aforementioned TM plan?, outside of a mass transit option such as the old Bootle line I really struggle see how other ways of managing the movement of people is going to manage an additional 10k people in an area which is at breaking point in different areas of the City on match days, routes back into town can’t cope now, the drive can’t cope now, the east lancs can’t cope now

The massive change from the past is the shift from public transport to the car. If it takes a reversal of that trend then that's what's going to happen but instead of adding ridiculously expensive and impractical branch lines, people are just going to have to get out of their cars and a} get the train in b) get out of the car/ off the train and walk the last mile or so like they used to or c) get on a bus.

None of which alters the basic economics of rebuilding or adding at relatively high cost for less relatively less income doesn't make sense.

[Eeyore]

The massive change from the past is the shift from public transport to the car. If it takes a reversal of that trend then that's what's going to happen but instead of adding ridiculously expensive and impractical branch lines, people are just going to have to get out of their cars and a} get the train in b) get out of the car/ off the train and walk the last mile or so like they used to or c) get on a bus.

None of which alters the basic economics of rebuilding or adding at relatively high cost for less relatively less income doesn't make sense.

Let's see how well cars manage for long journeys when we move to electric cars with a limited range and a lack of infrastructure. 

[Peter McGurk]

Let's see how well cars manage for long journeys when we move to electric cars with a limited range and a lack of infrastructure.

I have to ask... did you read what you responded to?

Look, life's too short to worry about how to get there if it doesn't make sense to build it in the first place.

[meady1981]

Youre all talking out of your arse.
The guy on here a few months ago clearly stated that flying taxis would be doing the heavy lifting very soon.
Keep up.

[A-Bomb]

I have to ask... did you read what you responded to?

Which lets be honest if he did read what he was responding too - was nonsense anyway, as over the next decade, there is and will be further significant innovation and investment into solving the problems he highlights.

[Eeyore]

I have to ask... did you read what you responded to?

Look, life's too short to worry about how to get there if it doesn't make sense to build it in the first place.

Could have sworn it was you who has continuously advocated the 1:1.8  safe standing model. A strategy that would lead to needing to get more supporters to Anfield without extending any other stands.

[andy07]

Fairly sure before the original Main Stand expansion the capacity was around 54700 and the expansion added another 4000 or so seats taking the capacity to just short of 59000, but before opening around 2700 was lobbed off the capacity of the terraces giving us 56300.  So effectively we went from 54700 to 56300.  With progressive reductions in standing capacities we went from 56300 down to 51000ish before seats went into the Paddock and then the Annie Road with the exception of the away section.

[cdav]

New Mister Drone video- all front spans connected, more roof cladding and looks like all the terracing done at the Main Stand end

https://youtu.be/h26lPWQ3W-c

[Peter McGurk]

Could have sworn it was you who has continuously advocated the 1:1.8  safe standing model. A strategy that would lead to needing to get more supporters to Anfield without extending any other stands.

Yeah. So?

We were actually talking about the economics of redeveloping the SKD, the cost of which might be light years away from standing on the kop.

I think you do it deliberately.

[Eeyore]

Which lets be honest if he did read what he was responding too - was nonsense anyway, as over the next decade, there is and will be further significant innovation and investment into solving the problems he highlights.

Don't want to derail the thread but things like football matches are the nightmare scenario for EV vehicles. Fans traveling great distances to attend events that last a couple of hours. It simply doesn't make economic sense to put in a huge investment for infrastructure when stadiums are so rarely used.

Contrary to what Peter has stated the likelihood is that the move to cars for events like football matches will almost certainly be reversed. 

[CraigDS]

Contrary to what Peter has stated the likelihood is that the move to cars for events like football matches will almost certainly be reversed. 

 

The massive change from the past is the shift from public transport to the car. If it takes a reversal of that trend then that's what's going to happen but instead of adding ridiculously expensive and impractical branch lines, people are just going to have to get out of their cars and a} get the train in b) get out of the car/ off the train and walk the last mile or so like they used to or c) get on a bus.