Topic: Gay Footballers

[Xabi Gerrard]

Why not ex pros who no longer have the terraces to worry about? Not being argumentative but it appears most reasons that apply just to footballers do not apply to ex pros. I agree that no person should have to come out but if it's a choice then it's not a situation caused by issues in football.

So there are three options as to why there have been no PL players coming out;

1) Gay PL players exist but for football related reasons they don't want to come out;

2) Gay PL players exist but coincidentally all of them want to remain closeted for non-football related reasons;

3) There are no gay PL players.

Is it fair to say that you think it's either 2) or 3)? If so, which do you think it is and why? Quite interested to know your opinion given your close connection to an ex-PL player.

[Inpeace]

I have no idea, genuinely. will ask my brother (coincidentally have family who played in the 80s but only see at weddings and funerals and will try to ask their views) when I see him next.

Think the point I was poorly trying to make is all of the reasons appear to relate to current players where I agree there are reasons they may feel they need to hide the fact not to come out but most of these do not apply to ex pros who either have a reason to come out (increased media attention) or no more reason to not come out as the general public have.

Leads me to guess there are significantly less gay players than in the general public (perhaps for reasons I discussed earlier) or there are other reasons not discussed yet.

I could understand a few players not coming out but it is harder to reason the larger number that 5% would represent (over the last 20 years).

This issue is one that has raised my interest and so far most theories seem to fit current players but not ex pros, when I bring this up it's not trying to disagree but seeing if others have an insight I do not see.

[Rhi]

I'm gay. We have plenty of other LGBT people here on RAWK. Lots of us are regular match-goers. This is something we talk about occasionally. It's something that I think is an important issue, and I think that my views would be echoed to some degree by most other LGBT supporters.

Firstly, there ARE out gay footballers currently playing professionally in England. Several. They are all women.

It is the men's game that lags behind, but not only in football, in other sport too.

So why is that? Is it because men must have this perception of macho-manliness and without it they cannot compete at the highest level of sport? Maybe a little bit. But certainly in Western society things have moved on. You check the social media accounts of many top players these days and they're hardly the stereotypical macho-man image of years gone by. What's the other thing that differentiates male sport to female sport, then?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You watch that Gareth Thomas documentary, as I did, and you listen to what those in the higher echelons of the football world tell us, and they'd have you believe that people don't come out because of us. Because we, as supporters, would give them grief. I do not buy that. I don't buy that because I've been going to the games regularly for well over 15 years, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard or seen something homophobic. In FIFTEEN YEARS.

"Oh but look at how many times football fans say faggot on Twitter" says Gareth Thomas... as if the trolls aren't trolling rugby players, politicians, musicians, rappers, singers, actors, or literally anyone. No. Fuck right off with that narrative. That's what your FA and your Premier Leagues and your PFAs and your UEFAs and your FIFAs want you to believe. We're just animals. Can't be trusted with a beer in view of the pitch, let alone with a homosexual in the game.

In completely unrelated news, the next World Cups will be in Russia and Qatar. And no money exchanged hands to enable this to happen. Also completely unrelated that most major clubs in the world played pre season friendlies in countries with less than stellar records on gay rights over the last 5 years. Many of the world's biggest clubs are sponsored by organisations that do a lot of business in countries where being gay is not accepted. In this global football world, where commercial success is key and billions are spent on football and in football and using football as the advertising tool, what do you think is the main reason players don't come out? No really?

Liverpool FC were part of the Pride parade in Liverpool earlier this year. Again. About the 5th year running now. There was a lot of positivity about it locally. Check Twitter, and you'll see the global consequences of it. And you can extrapolate that to what might happen to any player that came out. Is that player bothered by Twitter? I very much doubt it. Are his sponsors worried that he can no longer be used on that ad campaign in the Middle East or parts of Asia? I think there's a reasonable chance it's how they think.

So yeah, back to that Gareth Thomas documentary. In it you had people like Graham Taylor and Peter Scudamore in their ivory towers telling us that players don't want to come out because we - the fans - are scum. It's not them! What else can they do?! The fans are just awful! Yes they've just made millions from deals in Country That Hates Gays, but it's DEFINITELY not within their remit to help gay players live an open and honest life, is it? Not when you've got uneducated and brutal twats like us in the stadia.

I was disappointed in that because I think Gareth Thomas bought their lie a bit. Amal Fashanu saw through it, and she alluded repeatedly to the authorities being one of the problems, but they didn't really press any of them on it. And why would they when there's an easy target there already. The much maligned football supporter. The working classes.

I love Gareth Thomas to bits, by the way. I think he's been exceptionally brave, and anyone who has read his story will know what an enormous toll hiding his sexuality took on him and his health. Likewise Nigel Owens. And when people in here say things like "why do they need to come out though?" and "I think they don't want to because of the circus" and shit like that, then read their stories, and try to understand that despite YOU thinking that staying in the closet is the easy option, try to understand that hiding a massive part of yourself is a burden so much heavier and so much harder than I can put into words. You need only to see the incidence of mental health issues in the LGBT community in comparison to the straight population to see the toll it takes pretty clearly.

I say that from the privileged position of someone whose family and friends accept them unconditionally. But despite that it took me years and years to come out. I sympathise entirely with the footballer that doesn't want the circus. I didn't either. The idea of everyone talking about me? God. Kill me. I can't begin to think how awful that would be. I don't choose my words there lightly. That's how it feels. Kill me. But then the alternative is killing you too. Slowly suffocating you and your right to a life. Can't go on a date without that paranoia that someone will see. Can't flirt with that person you've got a massive crush on in case someone finds out. Can't find the courage to make the move because then people might KNOW and your life might be ruined. So you live a life alone and in secrecy and in loneliness and in fear and in lies. And then something happens and you realise you can't keep doing it because not being able to live your life as who you really are is just really, really shit. I mean, really shit. Aside from not being able to kiss and be kissed or love and be loved, living a lie is fucking awful. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And I am SURE there are footballers out there who are thinking to themselves that it's fine and they can put up with it until they retire. Because they've got no-one on their side saying "do you know what, it's OK, be who you are, don't waste your life living a lie."

How sad is that? Spending 15 years of your life not being able to date or kiss or fuck without fear? 

Is that a life you'd want from the age of 16 to 30? Is that a life conducive to being the best you can be? Is it happy life?

So when you think "why do they need to come out?" well that's why. Because hiding who you are and being unable to live an open life is shit. A million times more shit than people repeatedly referring to you as "the Premier League's first openly gay footballer". I don't want a flag bearer or any shit like that. I just believe that everyone should have a right to live their life openly and honestly, and it's is fucking obvious that male gay/bi professional footballers despite the rest of their privilege, do not have that particular one. And it's not because people might be mean to them. Certainly not in most of Western Europe. It's because other people's money is at stake.

[Rhi]

I could understand a few players not coming out but it is harder to reason the larger number that 5% would represent (over the last 20 years).

This issue is one that has raised my interest and so far most theories seem to fit current players but not ex pros, when I bring this up it's not trying to disagree but seeing if others have an insight I do not see.

You are using a generational issue to draw conclusions in football that fit your narrative. Even in the relatively progressive arts you had superstars who were married to members of the opposite sex in like the 80s and 90s because being gay was not "allowed". And music and acting are decades ahead of football in this respect.

There are two players in relatively recent years who have come out upon retiring from the Premier League / European football (Hitzlsperger and Rodgers). This is undoubtedly the tip of the iceberg.

[Doc Red]

Thanks for that Fiasco brilliant post, i'll come back to it in more detail tomorrow but agree pretty much with each and every bit of that.

Ditto.
I'll post a longer post tomorrow, but for now will leave it at this.
I think more gay athletes and footballers will come out when they don't need to come out. If that makes any sense.

[Sarge]

Rhi 

[Inpeace]

You are using a generational issue to draw conclusions in football that fit your narrative. Even in the relatively progressive arts you had superstars who were married to members of the opposite sex in like the 80s and 90s because being gay was not "allowed". And music and acting are decades ahead of football in this respect.

There are two players in relatively recent years who have come out upon retiring from the Premier League / European football (Hitzlsperger and Rodgers). This is undoubtedly the tip of the iceberg.

Sorry if it came across that way but I am not trying to offer any conclusions, genuinely here to learn rather than conclude. The original post referred to 5% of players being gay (I have assumed this means every year rather than at this point in time) but so far reasons given why so few ex PL (old division 1)are openly gay appear to only relate to current players or are issues that also effect homosexuals not in the sport (where there does not seem to be the same reluctance to be openly gay) . I am not questioning these reasons but trying to expand on these to why this is also true for those not actively in the sport. I am trying to do this as sensitivity as possible but freely admit I may be unintentionally clumsy at times.

Rather than seem like a broken record can I ask another question that I hope does not detract from the original. Why are those no longer playing reluctant to be openly gay, is an ex pro more likely to not be openly gay than others ? Is this generational issue also the reason for current players not to be openly gay?

[eyescream]

Wow, sorry if it sounded that way.
English isn't my primary language and may be I got lost in translation.
My opinion when I said "private" was that everyone should feel free to be whatever they are. No matter gay or hetero. May be I should have it worded as "personal" or any other way.
I am hot homofobic at all. I have two gay couples as friends - one male and one female. The girls have a daughter. My son used to play with her. Not any more, because one of the girls got a better job in another town and they moved.
Regarding the "showers", It's not my observation. One of the guys from the gay couple was a water polo player when he was younger. He told me that he had this problem when his teammates found out that he was gay.
I'm sorry once again if I offended anyone. It wasn't my intention at all.

[Red_Skippy]

Regardless of how much we try and encourage players to come out these days, there are still a lot of c*nts out there who would ruin their futures and endorsements as such.

There are also plenty of homophobic players, managers and supporters who need to have a word with themselves.

It will still be another 20-30 years before gay players will be able to come out and not fear the repercussions. Sadly.

[boots]

I'd agree with the 20-30 yrs. Yesterday commuting into that London on the train I saw two young girls holding hands and being affectionate towards each other. Nothing too overt. But the looks they were getting from some other passengers and indeed other women shocked me a bit. You'd think they were peados, rather than just two normal people in love.

I despair at people at times.

[Jake]

Can't believe that lad is getting slated for saying that the (wrongly) self-conscious straight players would possibly hold a (wrongly held) concern that a gay player would be sneaking a peek in the shower.

If I was showering with a bunch of female footballers I'd find it pretty difficult not to have a peek.

[Rhi]

Sorry if it came across that way but I am not trying to offer any conclusions, genuinely here to learn rather than conclude.

Rather than seem like a broken record can I ask another question that I hope does not detract from the original. Why are those no longer playing reluctant to be openly gay, is an ex pro more likely to not be openly gay than others ? Is this generational issue also the reason for current players not to be openly gay?

And I wasn't having a pop either

I think there are generational issues that make it harder for ex pros to come out. They will likely have been married to women and had children and do not live within environments where they feel they can change that. They are from a time when homophobia was prevalent within society and within sport, and come with all of the baggage that brings. We still had overt racism in football not that long ago, and you can't hide your race. So I think it follows that many older pros have been closeted due to that fear, and they've lived that life for so long that it's very hard to imagine a different life.

The pressures that gay players playing now face are very different pressures to a player playing 20 years ago. Football has changed so dramatically in one way, and Western European society has changed so dramatically in another. And that makes it hard to draw conclusions based on historical "data", IMO.

The alternative to the above is that we are saying actually it is just top level sport / football where gays don't exist. Which is obviously ludicrous. Because you can try to deduce the reasons for that like the macho environment and like the team aspect of it, and you can compare it to other macho team environments such as the military that have successfully modernised and now have LGBT people serving, and it just blows those arguments out of the water. There are gay players now. There have been historically. There are a lot of reasons, reasons that have changed over the years, why they are not open about it.

[TepidT2O]

Tremendous posts from Rhi here.....

Absolutely nailing it..

[peterstone]

(coincidentally have family who played in the 80s but only see at weddings and funerals and will try to ask their views) when I see him next.

.

That would be a weird thing to bring up at a funeral

  

[boots]

As Rhi says, its a generational thing. Moving forward for todays generations it will become easier and easier. But us old uns still have the shrapnel of social conditioning to shrug off. Its a powerful thing social conditioning. It becomes ingrained and entrenched into all aspects of our lives and some of us still have to untangle all the bullshit fed to us from birth. Like people say, no-one is born hating. Weve been moulded that way by society but breaking that mould is desperately difficult the older you get.

[TepidT2O]

This article is interesting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/40979452

Bosworth is right of course, but I can understand Dyke's viewpoint... if several players come out together it makes it much less of a stigma for each individual.

Good to hear that he thinks Dyke is taking the issue seriously too..

[DangerScouse]

Leicester City have condemned the homophobic chanting that took place against Brighton & Hove Albion after confirming some of the club’s supporters were removed from the stadium during match on Saturday.

According to witnesses, the abuse began in the closing stages of the game the hosts won 2-0. Following the match, fans of both clubs voiced their concerns on social media.

Leicestershire Police confirmed that two Leicester fans were arrested for alleged homophobic chants.

Leicester have said they are “disappointed” by the actions of a “minority” of fans but praised the club’s stewards for swiftly removing the offenders from the King Power Stadium and reporting them to the police.

A club spokesman said: “We are committed to creating a passionate, inclusive, welcoming environment at King Power Stadium, in which everyone is free to enjoy the matchday experience.

“As part of our ongoing efforts to educate our staff, senior King Power Stadium stewards undertook specialist training during the summer in effectively identifying offensive behaviour, including contributions from Leicester’s LGBT Centre on recognising homophobic abuse.

“While disappointed that such abuse took place during Saturday’s match, we are satisfied that our stewards reacted swiftly and appropriately, which led to the responsible minority being ejected from the stadium and reported to the police.”

A Leicester fan, Chris Whiting, told BBC Radio Leicester that events on Saturday made him feel “unsafe” and “unwelcome” at his club’s own stadium. “In the last 20 or so minutes the chanting started towards the Brighton fans and then after that it got a bit more nasty with a few isolated shouts, which were a bit more malicious,” he said.

“It made me very shaken, I felt a bit unsafe and very unwelcome in a place I’ve been going to since I was eight years old.”

A Brighton supporter, who did not wish to be named, told the Leicester Mercury that the level of vicious homophobic abuse was like a throwback to what football was like in England in the 1970s. “We’ve encountered abuse over the years, but it’s all but gone from the game,” the fan said.

“However, a group of around 20 to 30 Leicester City fans close to Brighton supporters suddenly started chanting vicious homophobic abuse and making homophobic gestures.

“It was like something out of the 1970s, and this sort of bigoted, small-minded behaviour needs to be stopped and those involved ejected from the ground.”

Kick It Out’s professional players engagement manager, Paul Mortimer, said education was needed to prevent supporters using homophobic language. He told BBC Radio Leicester: “How much of a problem it is we’ll see as the season goes on but it’s definitely there and it’s something that football as a whole has to work together to quell.

“People need to recognise the impact that it has on fans. It’s about education more than anything – making people aware of the impact that this has on their own fans.

“I would bang the drum of education more than anything else, because within football clubs there are LGBT communities and imagine what they will be feeling when a section of fans are saying this horrible language in their presence. It’s unacceptable and I’m sure if it carries on there will be sanctions.”



https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/21/leicester-condemn-fans-homophobic-chanting-brighton?CMP=share_btn_tw

[plura]

Sister in laws kids keep going on about gays and lesbians, my youngest (6) said the other week a gay is someone who sucks dicks. He's got this from his 8 yr old cousin and we know its come from her c*nt of an ex, he's a right bigoted prick from East London West Ham fan. I left what was once a really good motorbike facebook group due the childish digs at non Honda owners, saying they are gay, its like infants school with some c*nts.

Hopefully one day society will all grow up and a persons sexuality won't mean a thing. When I first went on the Kop I well remember the abuse black players got, now that is something consigned to history and this should be the same.

We've a fella in work who is gay, he'd never said to any of the lads he's gay (and why should he, we don't declare we are heterosexual) but just things he said got picked up on, None of us care about his sexuality, my only issue with him is he's a Saints supporter 

I'd think that when you are around someone every day, travelling and stuff, that things would be picked up on and if a player was intentionally hiding it, then it would come out eventually, people always slip up and say something when trying to keep a secret.

Yeah I know things will change for the better, or I sincerely believe and hope it will. And I guess for myself it's easy to sit around and wait for that change without being too affected by it. I don't get looks, the abusive words or worse because of it. But it's so extremely ridiculous that still so many people cares about it in any/negative way. What the fuck does someone else's sexuality have to do with you, your life, your jobs, etc?

But when I'm out somewhere perhaps with a gay friend and you notice how they can get treated differently or physically/verbally abusive then it just makes you sick to the stomach. We need to stand up against stuff like that. And the type of c*nts that you unfortunately see in the footballing world and other similar places where a lot testosterone filled men in groups rally up is appalling. The interesting thing is in most cases their views are due to ignorance and fear.

[ggcc14]

Leicester fans were being absolute wasters away to Atleti too weren't they? Starting fights and shit? Absolute muppets.

[DangerScouse]

Leicester fans were being absolute wasters away to Atleti too weren't they? Starting fights and shit? Absolute muppets.

Yep. Middle england shite.

[CheshireDave]

Yep. Middle england shite.

Should be said though Leicester fans are far from the only team in country whose fans shout abuse, homophobic or otherwise to the other team's fans or staff. It happens at every ground in the country. From personal experience I would say it is much more prevalent in the football league though. Or perhaps it seems that was because rather than it being 20 or so out of 30,000 it is 20 or so out of a couple of thousands. Either way good on the Leicester stewards for removing these idiots from the ground.

[Purple Red]

Probably won't be the first time this happens this season with the prevalence of that stereotype about Brighton.

[Persephone]

Rhi, that post was fantastic. One of the best posts I've read on here.

[exiledintheUSA]

Rhi - brilliant as always.

[BabuYagu]

I vaguely remember a picture appearing of Newcastle's Xisco kissing men in some tabloid or other. Then loads of speculation that he would be the Premier League's first openly gay footballer. There was also a tonne of abuse aimed at him too online. In the end he never publicly came out I believe.

At the same time I remember Beckham & Cristiano Ronaldo either made, or were rumoured to be making a video in support of gay footballers. Quick google tells me the campaign was called "kick anti-gay prejudice off the pitch and out of the terraces". That's way too long for a campaign name for a start but also it seems to have died before it was ever off the ground. I found a quote from the head of Outrage who were behind the video saying "“I know of a group of gay footballers who would not feel comfortable coming out at the moment,” Tatchell said. “This video might be the precursor to that happening, and if it’s well received, I suspect it will give some players the confidence to think about coming out.”

Personally I'm sad the situation is how it is. I can also see the potential consequences for any player that comes out and it makes sense why they do not. I read about Wentworth Miller some years ago, for example, and the impact being gay appeared to have on his career. How he was passed over for roles etc. I think being in the public eye is a pretty hard lifestyle anyway and having something as personal as that used to attack you could be the breaking of some people, so they just avoid it. It would be easy for me to say they should come out - but then as a white, male, hetro the system always seems rigged in my favour so who am I to judge.

I also don't know how the situation is in Brazil. I suppose that is indicative of the lack of speculation I see here on the subject with players or how much attention is paid to their personal lives. The last footballer I remember whose love life was getting any major attention out here was Pato but that is because of the fact he was involved with a famous actress.

[Sarge]

Good piece on BBC Premier League Show.

[gregorio]

I wonder how many youth players / young gay men self-select out of professional football due to early exposure to homophobia 

[Rysoph76]

My issue with this would be more if the players themselves could not come out to their colleagues. As I understand it, players who are gay are generally open about it among their fellow players but that it is not made public (nor should it be without their consent). Ultimately, a person's sexual preference is their own business and should never be have to be made public unless they are happy with it. No one is saying to footballers 'Can you come out and speak out if you are a white man who is into black women or a black man into asian women or you are into big women or little women or hairy women or older women' so why the fuck should people feel like they have to speak out as being gay? If someone chooses to of their own accord that is fine and I support the rainbow laces and straight players speaking out against homophobia as gay players should feel like their inner sanctum is supportive of their basic human rights as human beings. I think sadly that we are still some way from being in a place where a player could come out as being gay and opposing fans wouldn't single them out for abuse to put them off in the heat of the moment.

[Hij]

Rhi - brilliant as always.

Late to the party, but was still a good read today!

[SlowRap]

Look on LFC Instagram comments right now, LFC changed their profile pic to rainbow to show solidarity with pride, and there are thousands of comments from idiots - that's why no top player can come out the world isnt ready yet

[CraigDS]

Look on LFC Instagram comments right now, LFC changed their profile pic to rainbow to show solidarity with pride, and there are thousands of comments from idiots - that's why no top player can come out the world isnt ready yet

Whilst I agree with you (for once  ) I wouldn't take the comments on social media as any indication for the majority of people. Thankfully not only are most not from the UK, but a lot of them wouldn't act anything like they do online out in public.

[sms1986]

Whilst I agree with you (for once  ) I wouldn't take the comments on social media as any indication for the majority of people. Thankfully not only are most not from the UK, but a lot of them wouldn't act anything like they do online out in public.

Exactly, it's just a cesspool of trolls. Same goes for Youtube comments.

[Something Worse]

Exactly, it's just a cesspool of trolls. Same goes for Youtube comments.

I'm encouraged by the number of people calling out the homophobes.

[Dench57]

As a wise man once said...

Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth,
Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.

[Jake]

Look on LFC Instagram comments right now, LFC changed their profile pic to rainbow to show solidarity with pride, and there are thousands of comments from idiots - that's why no top player can come out the world isnt ready yet

From what I saw it's usually people from less enlightened countries. Don't think the top players would ever come into contact with them.

[Sarge]

The thing is I do not see players coming out due to the fact that thery feel as if they would be slated by one mined mononic bigots, ya know the type. Players may also fear that the career may be hit too. As stated on here the number of Pro ballers there is at least a % of gay players, fact. Sad to say in this day and age that fear is still in place.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The thing is I do not see players coming out due to the fact that thery feel as if they would be slated by one mined mononic bigots, ya know the type. Players may also fear that the career may be hit too. As stated on here the number of Pro ballers there is at least a % of gay players, fact. Sad to say in this day and age that fear is still in place.

thing is it’s none of our business, but the one who does will make an absolute fortune if they’re decent prem level or above

[Sarge]

thing is it’s none of our business, but the one who does will make an absolute fortune if they’re decent prem level or above

I get that but why should they feel the need to not be able to be who they are?

[Sarge]

Interesting.



https://twitter.com/FootballerGay

[Tonyh8su]

Interesting.



https://twitter.com/FootballerGay

Saw this as well with the player in question saying he doesn't use an iPhone. But what's the significance? I would assume 90% or more of professioanl footballers use iPhones? Hardly narrowing it down is it?