Author Topic: Maradona 1960-2020  (Read 99543 times)

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Maradona 1960-2020
« on: January 28, 2013, 04:44:41 am »



I must begin by saying I've never seen Maradona play in the flesh, or live, so I've had to base my thoughts on him, largely on the basis of others that have seen him in his pomp, along with various footage, and his stats. Seeing people still doubting whether Messi is better than him has me somewhat bewildered/in awe, as other than winning a World Cup, Messi has blitzed pretty much everything else Maradona accomplished.


His goal scoring record is nothing we haven't seen before, nor is he the only player to shine at a World Cup. I understand this is a narrow minded and ignorant view, but it is intentionally so.


This isn't a 'Maradona was shit' thread, nothing of the sort, I'm basically here asking to be educated on why Maradona is so widely regarded as the greatest of all time.


I'd loved to have written a nice, long piece, to begin the topic, and I apologise for not doing so, but as you've probably guessed, I'm no poet, and I tend to keep things short, and to the point.

I understand this is a subjective topic, so can we please keep the discussion on point and conduct it in an adult manner?


« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 07:41:01 am by John C »

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 05:36:39 am »
Watching Maradona videos and old records, there's no doubt he was one of the very best players ever. And without having watched everybody, I will agree with people putting him in top 3 with Messi and Pele. Heck, I won't argue if he gets top 2.

What I hate is that now every new player is compared to him, and are asked to do exactly what he has done. This is ludicrous, it's a stupid argument, because Maradona was never asked to score 1200+ goals Pele scored to be declared the best ever (by some). He was never asked to win 3 world cups that Pele won, to be declared he is better than Pele (by some). Maradona never won in Continental and Intercontinental cups that Pele won either, and it was OK.

Yet, Messi has to do what he has done, according to some. He has to play for a shitty club (although Napoli weren't that bad but there you go, a stupid argument), and win a world cup or two. It's silly, stupid and just boring now. No human lives an identical life to another one, and having exactly the same conditions is impossible. Maradona didn't do what Pele did, and Messi hasn't done what either Pele or Maradona did. It's OK, Messi is still the best.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 05:56:28 am »
Impossible question really the only thing I'd throw out there which may just edge Maradona for me is a couple of things .

Firstly no player has ever had such an individual influence on a team winning a World Cup . Secondly although Napoli were no slouches he took a less fashionable club to win Serie A. Maybe the equivalent of winning the Premier League with Everton.
Thirdly he played in an era when he had far less protection from defenders than today & had lumps kicked out of him . Yes Messi gets tough tackled at times but not on the scale of the 1980's etc.

Messi plays in an all conquering team domestically which overshadows that some of the lower teams in la liga are quite poor. Serie A was the best league at the time .

Messi is amazing & he's records are unbelievable to say who's best is impossible really but what I've mentioned at the moment just edges to Maradona for me.

I think a lot of people feel Messi needs to do it in a World Cup but George Best never & he's probably the next most skilful we've ever seen.

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Offline FresnoBee

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 06:01:44 am »
There are some full games of Napoli with Maradona in Youtube. You can see why he's regarded as the best player in history.

He's like a bull, a very skillful one. He's everywhere tried to get everything's going, just like Rooney or (younger) Gerrard but 10 times better. And it's Napoli, where no other player than Maradona would be in everyone all time great players list.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:06:46 am by FresnoBee »

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 06:02:10 am »
Agree with Paul, and add to the fact that today Messi has all the very best that technology and sports science has to offer to help his performance, faster recovery times, a clean and healthy lifestyle etc. While I'm not condoning Maradona's drug-fuelled binge, it's amazing he managed to accomplish so much while actively wrecking his body.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 06:05:23 am »
I remember growing up watching him and he scared the shit out of me whenever he got the ball. He was a smooth  , agile fast little fucker. People will remember him for his handball but the other goal in that game was pure class. Loved and loathed him as a player.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 06:18:13 am »
Agree with Paul, and add to the fact that today Messi has all the very best that technology and sports science has to offer to help his performance, faster recovery times, a clean and healthy lifestyle etc. While I'm not condoning Maradona's drug-fuelled binge, it's amazing he managed to accomplish so much while actively wrecking his body.




Agree & also to add its never been tougher to be a defender than it is now. With the offside law no firmly in the attackers advantage it would be interesting to see how many Messi goals would have been ruled offside in the 80's also defenders get yellow cards & reds for tackles that were the norm leaving them on tightropes for the rest of the game & deemed as part & parcel of the game in the 80's aswell. So scoring is easier as defending is a nightmare.

Finally to win the league with Napoli when Serie A had the toughest & tightest defences with catenaccio . Plus other teams such as Inter Milan , AC Milan, Juventus, Roma, etc all being good.

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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 06:23:24 am »
Impossible question really the only thing I'd throw out there which may just edge Maradona for me is a couple of things .

Firstly no player has ever had such an individual influence on a team winning a World Cup . Secondly although Napoli were no slouches he took a less fashionable club to win Serie A. Maybe the equivalent of winning the Premier League with Everton.
Thirdly he played in an era when he had far less protection from defenders than today & had lumps kicked out of him . Yes Messi gets tough tackled at times but not on the scale of the 1980's etc.

Messi plays in an all conquering team domestically which overshadows that some of the lower teams in la liga are quite poor. Serie A was the best league at the time .

Messi is amazing & he's records are unbelievable to say who's best is impossible really but what I've mentioned at the moment just edges to Maradona for me.

I think a lot of people feel Messi needs to do it in a World Cup but George Best never & he's probably the next most skilful we've ever seen.


It'd be nice if comparison was a 3-way comparison between Maradona-Pele-Messi. I knew somebody would bring up world cup and being kicked, and if those are the criteria, then Pele surely has no match? Watch youtube videos where he was being kicked shit out of. I imagine in those times, it was even worse.

And yes, he had more influence than Maradona in world cups. Won 3, has collected full stadiums around the world and even stopped wars. Surely Maradona shouldn't be even mentioned in the same sentence with Pele, then? I am guessing number of people who watched Pele in his prime was getting smaller, so Maradona hype took over at some point. I have no doubt that the same will happen when Maradona generation will die and Messi generation will take over.

PS Oh and Napoli never won a European Cup. Surely the best team has to win it?

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 06:37:21 am »
Pele played in better teams than Maradona, just like Messi. It is not that Messi or Pele won CH Ls and World Cups on their own, is it?

In fact, some of the teams they played/play for are arguably the best in history or of their generation.

Maradona never had that luxury.




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Offline Zeb

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 07:05:41 am »
Maradona's scoring record is an interesting one. Di Stefano reckoned that Barca saw only 20% of Maradona's ability because of the problems, the injuries and the general state of the Barca team at that time. He scored 38 goals in 58 games. Would Pele have sacrificed himself in the biggest game of his career for the greater benefit of his team? Not Pele. Maradona did to pull Matthaus (fantastic player himself) out of position to get Argentina a lead in the 86 world cup final.

Watch his control of the ball. Pele dealt with the kicks, but he never dealt with defences drilled to the level Maradona faced. And Maradona looks effortless in how he moves past defenders. He has that burst of acceleration and everyone looks a fool, or he'll do something extraordinary to find a way round.

If goals are your measure of the greatest, fair enough, Pele's your man - by the end of his career he was counting goals scored in his back garden because that's how important they were to him.

But for just the sheer joy of watching an individual talent playing the game, watching someone fight themselves as much as the opposition and watching a crazy little fucker run riot past the best defenders put in front of him, it's Maradona for me. You respect van Persie's goalscoring ability, but you'd rather pay to watch Suarez wriggle his way through a packed defence - maybe he'll score, maybe he won't, but it's the thrill of watching the unexpected. Or you could compare Greaves with Best or two different archetypes of players from any generation. That's the fundamental difference here. Some players get you out of your seat as soon as they're on the ball. Maradona was the greatest I've seen, and those of previous generations tend to agree that he was the best they've seen too. Messi's a good question. Perhaps it's the romance of the self-destructive genius which pulls people more to Maradona? Messi is metronomic, in a fantastic team, and is still so very young. Maybe at the end of his career we can have a reasonable discussion on where he stands - there's a fair chance by any objective measure he will be the greatest. There'll still be a strong pull towards Maradona as the overachiever though.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 09:39:14 am »
Many just don't remember how good Maradona was and I don't like when people puts Messi ahead of Maradona without having seen Maradona play. When Maradona was in his prime he was completely dominant in Serie A and in World Cup and would have played like a god in any team or tournament. Why the fuss? Because he's probably the best player ever.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 09:42:31 am »
just watch that goal v engerland, an then watch the 1  where he weaved past the likes of peter reid an enough said!   stayed up to the early hours in 1986 as 1 of the elite players ever, single handedly  (almost)  won the biggest prize in world footy.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 10:08:08 am »
As usual, excellent post Zeb.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 10:18:56 am »
People say Messi is the best ever, but has he scored a goal in the World Cup after boshing a Pacino-szied bag of beak in the dressing room beforehand, having been up all night partying with no doubt dozens of scantily clad beauties?

No he hasn't. So get to fuck Lionel. ;)

It's a shame Best and Maradona were different eras as they would have enjoyed each other's company.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 11:16:34 am »
While Messi is nothing short of incredible to watch and what hes achieved, he does have the luxury of having world class players around him. Maradona didn't have that and was quite simply mesmerising the way he made the unexpected happen. Brilliant ball control, centre of gravity and strength that could hold off big defenders and didn't go to ground as easily until he was hacked down. His balance on the ball is better than Messi from what I've seen. He was a little tank that wanted to finish its run and not stop half way for a free kick, which he was pretty amazing at too! The way he jinked around towering defenders was crazy to watch.

And as a leader he was worshipped and looked up by his club and national team mates. Messi comes across as a quiet lad and doesn't have that aura yet. Of course if Barca happen to play badly they'd just get the ball to Messi and he'd fix it, but Maradona inspired with his passion and rallying calls as well. Thats how he won the WC, not just his goals, but the in manner that he put fire into that team.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 11:29:09 am »
Pele for those who watched in 60s/70s
Maradonna for those from the 80s/90s
Messi for today's generation

Each the best at their time, and each foundly remembered by those who grew up watching them.

But basically impossible to judge them.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 01:02:04 pm »
Having not been born when Maradona was any good (was only two at the time of the 'Ephedrine scream') I've only ever seen videos of Maradona. There's no denial he was a genius. Messi though.... I just wonder, has anyone ever been on his level? Insatiable and insane. Is it 33 in 21 now in La Liga this season? People keep saying Messi needs to win a world cup to be the greatest. Well Maradona never won a European cup or a La Liga in his two seasons at Barca. Granted his style was marvelous, the way he just went through people. I'd be tempted to go for Messi, but perhaps lack the historical context to make a fair judgment.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 01:52:40 pm »
'Why the fuss?'

I'm amazed you have to ask the question, regardless of whether you've seen him live or not. It's obvious isn't it?
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 02:35:24 pm »
Second highest international goalscorer after Batistuta.

If you grew up watching him as I did, and I'm sure many of you did, you'll appreciate just how special and extraordinary his talents were. Like Messi, he was a phenomenon.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 02:42:10 pm »
The thing that unites the great players when you look back at them playing, is that they look 20 years ahead of their time. Be it pele, be it eusebio, best, cruyff, beckenbauer etc. we look back at them now and go he wasn't that special, because footballers today have learned so much from their way of playing, that a lot of what they did then looks kind of familiar and boring to us. The closest example I can think of for us in this category was early period john barnes, who looked like a footballer from another planet, a prototype thierry henry, strength, power, speed, largely two footed, good in the air, great at free kicks, at a time when football was..... radically different.   

Maradona was like messi, except at a time when people were allowed to kick him really violently without even conceding free kicks. can you imagine how difficult that must have been? If maradona were snatched away and hothoused from the age of 13 at the heart of barcelona, given all of the possible support he could have ever needed, and if fouling him became a yellow card, never mind the continuous wave of assaults that maradona had to face, he could have achieved so much more.

He really was an extraordinary player, and while there is little sense in ranking players through the ages, to go back to the original post,  there's a reason that so many people think so highly, of what was an extremely flawed, difficult and tempermental footballer, and damaged human being. And that is because in between all of the nonsense that came with being maradona, he was a complete and utter footballing genius who lit up football in what was a very thuggish, brutal and nasty time.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 02:56:36 pm by RedHopper »

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 03:53:47 pm »
@ Anywhichwayucan


Quite simply he was the Messi of his day.

Exquisite footballer with the ball at his feet, extremely intelligent and way way above the players around him, and with it, he was built like a tank, and had brute strength and a very low centre of gravity.

Almost impossible to knock off the ball.

Amazing player.

It's a shame he was a dirty coke snorting cheat like, but not everyone's perfect.  ;)

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 03:58:36 pm »
A thread title is straight out of the Adrian Duhram playbook.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 04:36:44 pm »
A thread title is straight out of the Adrian Duhram playbook.

Next week: Johan Cruyff - Was he all that?

A poor man's David Platt.


This has always been one of my favourite clips of Diego, it would have been worth  buying a ticket just to watch him warm up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXzChH7MV60
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 04:39:25 pm by zimmie'5555 »

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 04:39:25 pm »
Cheers all, appreciate you taking the time to respond.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 05:23:10 pm »
I must begin by saying I've never seen Maradona play in the flesh
As far as I'm concerned this line settles who can argue about it and who cannot so I'm staying out of it. There will come a time maybe in twenty or thirty years when a talent approaching Messi's ability will appear again, that will be my time to make comparisons.

Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 05:27:27 pm »
The thing that unites the great players when you look back at them playing, is that they look 20 years ahead of their time.

Spot on.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 05:34:55 pm »
Maradona was probably the single player who carried his teams more than anyone else ever did to this day.

You can argue that this may not be possible today at all. I don't know, but what he did in Napoli is not something I think Messi could do, although I think Messi is the better player. He was also an incredible force in the World Cups he won, as was Pele if not even more.

I don't think Messi has the mental strength and confidence of Maradona and Pele to this day. Maybe he will. I do think Messi is the most gifted player ever though. But what makes "the GOAT" is subjective.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2013, 06:12:10 pm »
Diego was just the total package.

As many have said here, he was like a raging bull on the field. Imagine Messi's skills and talent and add Luis Suarez's tenacity and will to win. On top of that, put on Graeme Souness' leadership skills and the charisma of Romario. That was Diego.

Players on his team would die for him. He was THE global superstar of world football, yet he fought for his teammates rights all the time off the field. He didnt have dietitians and sports scientists following him at every corner, making sure he had x% of body fat. He was a street footballer, who partied the night before a game, ate a lot, drank alot, took alot of cocaine and still absolutely destroyed every team he faced.

No-one, not even Pele, has dominated a World Cup like Diego did. He took the 5th best team (at best) in the competition straight to the trophy. He scored the best goal in the history of the competition in the most emotional game in his country's history. In the same game, he scored the most notorious goal in the competition's history.

And the next game, the semi final, he scored 2 crackers too and provided the assist for the winner in the final.

Look at that winner again. He's surrounded by 4 German players. That's how absolutely terrified of him every team was, but he spins and plays in a gorgeous through ball.

The man as a footballer, was unreal. The man, as a man, was unbelievably charasmatic. There's actually a Church of Maradona in Argentina. I don't think any other player has his own church!

For me, he's the best player I've ever seen. I know this generation has a desperate need to elevate Messi as the best ever, but having seen the two, Diego is better for me.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 06:21:51 pm »
Maradona for me, as has been said he carried teams, was never surrounded by the superstars like Messi is. The tackling was brutal but he never hid, I remember a basque player clattered him from behind and apparently left the stud in his ankle. Pele never played in Europe and his goal haul was I believe artificially inflated so he could reach and break 1000 goals but I loved him and remember him in the 1970 World Cup - in colour !
Also there is far more material around about Messi than Maradona and he has a "polished" image that the media all play to, Diego was himself which was'nt always great.
No definitive answer but my tuppence worth.

Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 06:27:46 pm »
The points about Messi being surrounded by an outstanding team are true, but the team is made to look even more outstanding / other-worldly because of Messi, not independent of him.  Without Messi, Barcelona would be a very good team that moves the ball well, but replace his 70+ goals from last season with a more paltry (by his standards!) 20/30 goal scorer, and you have a very different complexion on their team's successes, and as a result how they are perceived.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 06:28:00 pm »
A thread title is straight out of the Adrian Duhram playbook.

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Offline Brentieke

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 06:28:50 pm »
Thing is, Diego didn't do "comfort zones".

He didn't leave Barca to go to Juventus or Milan. He left Barca to go to a club who had never previously won the league title in Italy. They promptly won it twice with Diego in the side, as well as a Uefa Cup- which was a Champions League-ish competition at the time.

He got tackled, he got destroyed, he got elbowed. He had no protection. He didnt give a fuck. He'd come back for more.

Everything you love about Suarez's mentality/spirit, Diego had.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 06:29:16 pm »
Maradona's first game in Europe. 18 years old playing for Argentina against Holland (a repeat of the 1978 World Cup Final of the year before). By the end all Holland can do is chop him and chop him and chop him again. The ref lets them, as they tended to do in those days.

Phenomenal.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 06:33:15 pm »
Phenomenal player, absolutely no doubt. Have watched quite a few games online seeing as he wasn't playing in my lifetime and he has incredible assets on the ball. Arguing otherwise is nonsense.

However, apart from goals, the reason I think Messi is better than Maradona is that his work rate and understanding of the team aspect is better than Maradona's was. The argument that teams were allowed to be rougher and pitches weren't as good in those days doesn't stand in my opinion because you could always revert it and say that nowadays teams are more compact and better organised - players get less time on the ball.
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 06:35:09 pm »
The points about Messi being surrounded by an outstanding team are true, but the team is made to look even more outstanding / other-worldly because of Messi, not independent of him.  Without Messi, Barcelona would be a very good team that moves the ball well, but replace his 70+ goals from last season with a more paltry (by his standards!) 20/30 goal scorer, and you have a very different complexion on their team's successes, and as a result how they are perceived.

Thread is not about Messi, but it's now impossible not to mention him in it, which is a testament to Messi's class.

The fact is, the Barca team constitutes a huge proportion of the Spain national side. It's even better to be honest. Well that Spain side has won the last 3 international tournaments. It's probably the best international side since Brazil 70.

Messi takes it to another level, no question. I agree with you. But still, without him, they'd still be considered one of the best teams in the history of football with certainly the best midfield in the history of the game.

That's why there's this need to see Messi win a World Cup. To put him above Diego, I need to see him win a major tournament without Barca. Without the players he's played with all his life, whose game is now set up to get the best out of him. Without the tactics and style of play ingrained  in him since he was a kid.

Messi elevates Barca, that much is clear. But it's also clear Barca elevate Messi. Nothing wrong with that, except that if we're comparing the 2 players- Diego never needed elevation. He was the one doing it, for club and country. Without any comfort zones, without sympathetic referees, without state of the art equipment, dietitians, a spotless lifestyle, a style of play ingrained in him or a favorable offside trap.
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Offline Antics

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2013, 06:35:15 pm »
Thing is, Diego didn't do "comfort zones".

He didn't leave Barca to go to Juventus or Milan. He left Barca to go to a club who had never previously won the league title in Italy. They promptly won it twice with Diego in the side, as well as a Uefa Cup- which was a Champions League-ish competition at the time.

He got tackled, he got destroyed, he got elbowed. He had no protection. He didnt give a fuck. He'd come back for more.

Everything you love about Suarez's mentality/spirit, Diego had.

Some people would call that wanting to be a big fish in a small pond, I'm not one of them, mind.

Offline Brentieke

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2013, 06:40:48 pm »
Some people would call that wanting to be a big fish in a small pond, I'm not one of them, mind.

Someone with Diego's will to win and warrior mentality will never want that.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2013, 07:01:08 pm »

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2013, 08:10:49 pm »
Diego was hearlded as the greatest footballer in the world long before his 1982 move to Barcelona for the then astronomical fee of 5 million pounds.

In fact it was the 1982 world cup in Spain that was originally anticipated as the stage where Maradonna would show the world what Argentina and the rest of South America already knew.  However the then 22 year old was kicked from pillar to post, most notably in a tempestuos match against Italy, finally showing his fiery temper by been dismissed against Brazil as Argentina were eliminated at the second group stage.

His stay in Barcelona is best remembered for a horrenderous tackle received from goikoetxea, forever afterwards known as the butcher of Bilbao, which almost ended his career. Maradonna had to deal with this sort of treatment all his career with often little or no protection from referees. While his time at Barca was somewhat unsuccessful, he showed enough, when fit, to keep his rep as the World's best and Napoli stumped up a world record 7 million to buy him in 1985.

I only detail the above to give the uninitiated an inkling of the background under which he arrived in Mexico with a relatively unfancied Argentinian side. We all know what happened there and it is that month above all else that has created all the fuss as the OP succinctly put it.

No matter how high a regard we all have for Messi now, imagine how that will increase if he turns up in Brazil in 2014 and scores three of the greatest solo goals we have ever witnessed and in the process leads his country to an unlikely word cup win.

Diego added to that legend with his subsequent performances with Napoli and his return to the World Cup Final four years later. However it was Mexico 86 that created his legacy as the greatest player that ever lived. This is how greatness is measured, the ability to seize the moment, to get the best out of your teammates, to do the impossible when it is most needed and to do all this on a football field when the opposition have being detailed to stop you by any means.

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Offline SA RED

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2013, 08:11:52 pm »
Apologies if I'm derailing the thread but how do you all feel Ronaldinho in his pomp compares to Maradona at his best? Further to that, when was Diego at his best?