Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Just openly called Johnson a racist c*nt in PMQT

As much as I would like to think otherwise, I assume that's not an actual quote.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

He also pulled up the Tories who were catcalling and jeering and said "You might want to listen" as they suddenly realised that they were also being openly racist/dismissive.

This Tory shitshow has survived a lot, but will it survive the whole England Team refusing to meet with Johnson (Which someone just told me is happening, though not had chance today to check the news..)

[Commie Bobbie]

Just openly called Johnson a racist c*nt in PMQT

Think he should just get the mace and whack the c*nt. Ground the racist c*nt into the ground.

[Red Beret]

Think he should just get the mace and whack the c*nt. Ground the racist c*nt into the ground.

Ground Boris? Ground Johnson?

[Commie Bobbie]

Ground Boris? Ground Johnson?

Honestly, I genuinely don't care how it happens, just get the abortion out.

Back on to KS, strong performance, less forensic and more confrontational, we need more of that.

[WhoHe]

Honestly, I genuinely don't care how it happens, just get the abortion out.

Back on to KS, strong performance, less forensic and more confrontational, we need more of that.

Targeting "hero voters" is the new strategy apparently, sounds very condescending.

[ianburns252]

Targeting "hero voters" is the new strategy apparently, sounds very condescending.

I've had a quick Google but I can't find anything that overtly matches up with "hero voters" - can you expand a bit for me please?

[Yorkykopite]

Targeting "hero voters" is the new strategy apparently, sounds very condescending.

I wonder what it means?

Labour is targetting former voters. Could it mean that?

[Dr. Beaker]

Probably just means they want Harry Kane to come out as a Labour voter.

[WhoHe]

I've had a quick Google but I can't find anything that overtly matches up with "hero voters" - can you expand a bit for me please?

Sure, it's an article in todays Times, heroes like Van drivers, healthcare workers etc. to break dow the Blue Wall. There is also stuff on banning "poisonous" groups within the Labour party as well.

Snippet below.

...
Starmer appointed Mattinson as his director of strategy two months ago. She was Gordon Brown’s chief pollster and is the author of a book entitled Beyond the Red Wall: Why Labour Lost, How the Conservatives Won and What Will Happen Next?
She has identified “hero voters” as the way for Labour to recapture constituencies lost by the party in 2019. Mattinson will present her full findings at Labour conference in the autumn. One shadow cabinet source said that Mattinson’s polling was impressive but questioned her terminology. “It’s a bit of an odd expression but her analysis is spot-on,” the source said. “Our messaging has been too broad. We’ve been trying to appeal to too many people. We need to focus on Tory voters in red wall seats. ”
Another said that Labour would seek to capitalise on the nation’s response to the racism directed at England players after the Euro 2020 final. They said that the team’s patriotism would appeal to the “hero voters” the party needed to win over. “During the pandemic the heroes were the van drivers, the shopworkers, the people who kept us going,” the source said. “This is about saying, ‘We’ve got a better offer to make to these voters than the Tories.’ People are fed up with the culture wars.”

[classycarra]

Sure, it's an article in todays Times, heroes like Van drivers, healthcare workers etc. to break dow the Blue Wall. There is also stuff on banning "poisonous" groups within the Labour party as well.

Snippet below.

...
Starmer appointed Mattinson as his director of strategy two months ago. She was Gordon Brown’s chief pollster and is the author of a book entitled Beyond the Red Wall: Why Labour Lost, How the Conservatives Won and What Will Happen Next?
She has identified “hero voters” as the way for Labour to recapture constituencies lost by the party in 2019. Mattinson will present her full findings at Labour conference in the autumn. One shadow cabinet source said that Mattinson’s polling was impressive but questioned her terminology. “It’s a bit of an odd expression but her analysis is spot-on,” the source said. “Our messaging has been too broad. We’ve been trying to appeal to too many people. We need to focus on Tory voters in red wall seats. ”
Another said that Labour would seek to capitalise on the nation’s response to the racism directed at England players after the Euro 2020 final. They said that the team’s patriotism would appeal to the “hero voters” the party needed to win over. “During the pandemic the heroes were the van drivers, the shopworkers, the people who kept us going,” the source said. “This is about saying, ‘We’ve got a better offer to make to these voters than the Tories.’ People are fed up with the culture wars.”

I'd agree with the shadow cabinet member that 'hero voters' is an odd label which needs to go.

I can't find the image but Klopp made a point in programme notes in the last year about people in these important roles, that are sometimes condescendingly and dismissively referred to as low-skill or menial jobs. He made a great point, and basically said he'd be annoyed if he ever had to hear that again. Suggested an alternative along the lines of 'jobs that are vital to keep the country running'.

Wonder if the leadership are now going for a What Would Jurgen Do approach. Probably no better bellwether out there (if I'm understanding/using the term properly..)

[WhoHe]

I thought "key workers" was the phrase used, hero workers is a bit rubbish.

[Zeb]

It's naff but its intention is to shift how voters are seen internally, I suspect, and shape the focus for what Labour would do in power. Socialist societies etc. ran merchandise of "Never kissed a Tory" when party needs a fair few of them to stop being Tories if it wants to get into government. Framing those voters for what they have done over the pandemic helps move things on a bit from that.

[ianburns252]

It's naff but its intention is to shift how voters are seen internally, I suspect, and shape the focus for what Labour would do in power. Socialist societies etc. ran merchandise of "Never kissed a Tory" when party needs a fair few of them to stop being Tories if it wants to get into government. Framing those voters for what they have done over the pandemic helps move things on a bit from that.

Not gonna lie - whenever I see someone on a dating profile with a "Never kissed a Tory" t-shirt, slogan etc or something similar I do tend to treat that as moving on from them quick sharp.

It is a little bit of a "Good for you - do you have a personality?" because if that is your headline then it does seem to speak for a very narrow band personality/world view.

I remember (prior to taking this approach) matching with someone like that and, unsurprisingly. we got to talking about politics and I mentioned having friends who were Tory and Libdem and it caused an almighty stink.

To be fair - this won't be every person who has ever worn a tshirt like that but it seems to stem from "I'm holier than thou" politics

[Zeb]

Not gonna lie - whenever I see someone on a dating profile with a "Never kissed a Tory" t-shirt, slogan etc or something similar I do tend to treat that as moving on from them quick sharp.

It is a little bit of a "Good for you - do you have a personality?" because if that is your headline then it does seem to speak for a very narrow band personality/world view.

I remember (prior to taking this approach) matching with someone like that and, unsurprisingly. we got to talking about politics and I mentioned having friends who were Tory and Libdem and it caused an almighty stink.

To be fair - this won't be every person who has ever worn a tshirt like that but it seems to stem from "I'm holier than thou" politics

That judgement element which can be part of it is interesting, as you say. To not overdo the 'never kiss' thing, it was a joke initially to raise cash for a socialist society, but the message it gives out is a useful shorthand for what you mention there and more. Find the common ground and pitch to that instead. It's not mad new insight however it's packaged, but I think there's too many who want to see it as competing interests rather than shared ones. If you're improving the working conditions and rights of people working in a warehouse up in Bolton then that is going to be part of doing exactly the same for a courier in the middle of Brighton. etc.

[scatman]

<snip>

They also had a united front in terms of the key figures, even though those politicians spanned all corners of the party - Blair from the 'third way' camp; Brown from a 'moderate-left-but-with-economic-savvy' position; Robin Cook an intellectual-leftist; Straw from the more socially-conservative left; Prescott from the working-class left; etc, etc.

Add to that Margaret Beckett, Mo Mowlam, John Reid, Geoff Hoon, Frank Dobson, Clare Short. For all their faults (aplenty) there were all in Blair's first cabinet and political titans compared to all the politicians we have today. It's absolutely night and day across the board and that includes the other parties and their politicians from that time too.

[Nobby Reserve]

Sure, it's an article in todays Times, heroes like Van drivers, healthcare workers etc. to break dow the Blue Wall. There is also stuff on banning "poisonous" groups within the Labour party as well.

Snippet below.

...
Starmer appointed Mattinson as his director of strategy two months ago. She was Gordon Brown’s chief pollster and is the author of a book entitled Beyond the Red Wall: Why Labour Lost, How the Conservatives Won and What Will Happen Next?
She has identified “hero voters” as the way for Labour to recapture constituencies lost by the party in 2019. Mattinson will present her full findings at Labour conference in the autumn. One shadow cabinet source said that Mattinson’s polling was impressive but questioned her terminology. “It’s a bit of an odd expression but her analysis is spot-on,” the source said. “Our messaging has been too broad. We’ve been trying to appeal to too many people. We need to focus on Tory voters in red wall seats. ”
Another said that Labour would seek to capitalise on the nation’s response to the racism directed at England players after the Euro 2020 final. They said that the team’s patriotism would appeal to the “hero voters” the party needed to win over. “During the pandemic the heroes were the van drivers, the shopworkers, the people who kept us going,” the source said. “This is about saying, ‘We’ve got a better offer to make to these voters than the Tories.’ People are fed up with the culture wars.”

The problem is that the majority of former Labour voters in their traditional heartlands who've switched to Tory (often via UKIP/TBP) have done so because they have rejected the "wokist focus on minority-issues" perception of the Labour Party - and that perception applies to Labour under Blair, Milliband Corbyn, Starmer.

Labour aren't winning back those lost voters without sacrificing their equalities principles, which are core to the party.

These people aren't necessarily racist/homophobic/anti-minorities in general (although a chunk are). They just see their lives have become tougher over the past so many years and want the focus of politicians to be on them. And have fallen for the bullshit peddled by the right-wing media that the blame for their ills lies with the EU/immigrants/lefties/wokists/benefits 'scroungers'/etc.

I personally think Labour shouldn't try to re-attract these voters (at least not shape their policies to try to win them back). Instead, they should package themselves as a party focused on a fairer distribution of the wealth that working people create in this country, with a public services 'rebirth revolution', and renegotiating a better deal with the EU that irons out all these mountains that the hard-Brexit is forcing us to have to climb.

Labour needs to be setting their own agenda, not constantly chasing votes - because if they put their focus on appeasing the lost red wall voters, they alienate voters elsewhere.

[Studgotelli]

Gonna make a prediction that Labour will win the next GE.

[TepidT2O]

Gonna make a prediction that Labour will win the next GE.

I like Starmer, but the greatest politician ever to have lived  would have a near impossible job of it.  This Parliament is about detoxifying Labour.  If he does that, he’s done his job.

[Dr. Beaker]

There is so much that could go wrong for the tories, anything could happen, even world record swings. Of course a lot of things will have to go right for Labour though.

[TepidT2O]

God forbid someone wants to be optimistic about the Tories getting the boot sooner rather than later.

I want to be optimistic, I really do, but I can also study history and see there is pretty much zero chance of getting rid of the Tory virus that currently afflicts this country

[Nobby Reserve]

This Parliament is about detoxifying Labour.  If he does that, he’s done his job.

The potential problem is that for every voter Starmer's 'detoxification' wins back, one walks away on the left edge.

I'm torn on this. I want to see this shower of corrupt shite swept away, but I also want a de facto war declaring on the super-rich and their endemic tax-dodging. I want to see anti-union legislation repealling so workers can recover their power. I want to see utilities nationalised (ideally with compensation at a level equivalent to the original sale price then index-linked). I want to see the involvement of all private companies in the provision of public services reversed and outlawed.

Starmer isn't going to do any of that.

I don't think Corbyn would have, either, but I thought of Corbyn as a small step towards a proper socialist government.


But then, I know I'm frustratingly in a minority.

[Studgotelli]

I like Starmer, but the greatest politician ever to have lived  would have a near impossible job of it.  This Parliament is about detoxifying Labour.  If he does that, he’s done his job.

Yeah fair I’m not sold on Starmer myself and I should caveat that this is if Boris continues down the path he’s going he’ll self sabotage his own position. 3 more years of this and people will be fed up and vote for an alternative. If not then Brits just love punishment.

[Yorkykopite]

I want to be optimistic, I really do, but I can also study history and see there is pretty much zero chance of getting rid of the Tory virus that currently afflicts this country

You may be right. But I'm curious to know what bit of history has informed that conclusion?

[TepidT2O]

You may be right. But I'm curious to know what bit of history has informed that conclusion?

How many times has a majority of that size been over turned?

We’re talking a long time back, and we were dealing with serious oppositions.  I like Starmer, but the public perception of Labour right now is too often of a bunch of crackpot Marxist loons….  I suspect the corbyn years won’t be forgotten in a hurry.

[Sangria]

The potential problem is that for every voter Starmer's 'detoxification' wins back, one walks away on the left edge.

Considering how many of the latter gave their support to Galloway, one wonders if anything that has any chance of dethroning the Tories would ever get their support.

[Elmo!]

How many times has a majority of that size been over turned?

We’re talking a long time back, and we were dealing with serious oppositions.  I like Starmer, but the public perception of Labour right now is too often of a bunch of crackpot Marxist loons….  I suspect the corbyn years won’t be forgotten in a hurry.

Majority size isn't really that important a metric when it comes to FPTP. Small swings can have hufe impacts on the seat counts.

[petecolonia]

Gonna make a prediction that Labour will win the next GE.

I would put the house on Labour losing baaaadly if Starmer is still there by then. Burnham would have a decent shot I reckon.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Seeing a flood of my friends and friends of friends on Social Media videoing themselves ripping up/burning/throwing away their Labour Membership cards and calling Starmer every name under the sun and saying that he has betrayed the entire history of the Party and that they''ll never vote Labour again.

[Snail]

Seeing a flood of my friends and friends of friends on Social Media videoing themselves ripping up/burning/throwing away their Labour Membership cards and calling Starmer every name under the sun and saying that he has betrayed the entire history of the Party and that they''ll never vote Labour again.

Not seen anything like that on my social media, and people I know generally aren’t fans of Starmer. Weird.

[reddebs]

Seeing a flood of my friends and friends of friends on Social Media videoing themselves ripping up/burning/throwing away their Labour Membership cards and calling Starmer every name under the sun and saying that he has betrayed the entire history of the Party and that they''ll never vote Labour again.

What reasons are they giving Andy?

[oldfordie]

Seeing a flood of my friends and friends of friends on Social Media videoing themselves ripping up/burning/throwing away their Labour Membership cards and calling Starmer every name under the sun and saying that he has betrayed the entire history of the Party and that they''ll never vote Labour again.

Maybe they should think about the question you asked the other day. many seem to think Labours history begins at clause 4.

What would you say is the point of the Labour Party?

[Yorkykopite]

How many times has a majority of that size been over turned?

We’re talking a long time back, and we were dealing with serious oppositions.  I like Starmer, but the public perception of Labour right now is too often of a bunch of crackpot Marxist loons….  I suspect the corbyn years won’t be forgotten in a hurry.

I wonder how much guidance the past can give on this. Political loyalties are clearly more molten than they used to be. Swings correspondingly greater. The FPTP system stymies third and fourth and fifth parties in a way it never used to (when the official opposition could lose a general election with 45 per cent of the popular vote), while creating undeserved opportunities for the two main contenders.

Then there's Covid. Think of it like a war. While the war is going on the popular vote naturally gravitates towards the government, regardless of how incompetent or venal it is ("the anyone can govern in a siege" principle). Once the war is over, and a decent amount of time has elapsed, the reckoning starts. The Labour party knows this. Its real breakthrough year was 1922 - not just in the parliamentary election but in local government elections too. The government that had 'won the war' (the Lloyd George-led, but essentially Conservative government) finally faced a proper reckoning once the war fervour that had returned them to power in 1918 had subsided and died. People gained their heads, asked the hard questions, and decided that things had been royally fucked up - corruption, profiteering, inadequate leadership both at home and on the battlefield, a disastrous peace policy leading to the mess at Versailles etc etc. Many millions looked at the Labour party, which had wanted wealth taxes on the profiteers and a non-punitive peace treaty for Germany, and said "You were right."

It's not inevitable that the British public will come its senses in the next two or three years, but it's a definite possibility. The Labour party needs to keep plugging away. Forget the loonies on the left, they are not needed. They are indeed a deadweight. Loud but insubstantial. Starmer is getting better at his job. The teflon is slowly coming off Johnson. The culture war is not turning out the way that the racists, the homophobes and the misogynists wanted. And, of course, the full effect of Brexit is yet to be felt.

Watch this space....

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What reasons are they giving Andy?

Reading some social media stuff;

Binned membership because..


He wasn’t my choice
Because he’s a Sir which means he is the establishment
Because Labour are led by someone who is the establishment
He’s playing Labour voters because he’s protecting the establishment
He’s fake and being manipulated by the establishment
He’s a Neo-Liberal
Biggest joke and worst leader. Stands for nothing, says nothing, does nothing
He’s a vindictive twerp masquerading as its leader.. he’s leading a charade.. and against healthcare and education..
.. turned mine in for the same reasons
.. I’ve done the same
.. I’m thinking of doing the same..
.. He has put paid to me staying...

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Twitter videos seem to have gone, otherwise I'd post links

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Saw that "My Three Words" Video.

He's been listening I think and he's going on the attack now. He's been brilliant the last few PMQT

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1417887287430553604

[Andy @ Allerton!]

From the stuff I've been reading over the last few days/weeks, I think the revolt is coming because of the 'Purge of real Labour Members' that has been reported

https://metro.co.uk/2021/07/18/keir-starmer-to-purge-far-left-groups-from-labour-party-14946248/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/18/keir-starmer-expected-to-back-purge-of-far-left-labour-factions
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1465399/labour-civil-war-starmer-sweeps-out-hundreds-of-far-left-corbyn-supporters-in-party-purge
https://theworldnews.net/uk-news/keir-starmer-purges-1-000-far-left-corbynista-members-from-labour-in-crackdown
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-expels-far-left-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-from-labour_uk_60f6ffbfe4b0158a5eda82d7



And also articles like this;

https://dorseteye.com/keir-starmer-has-to-be-an-establishment-plant/
https://labourheartlands.com/sir-keir-starmer-the-establishment-candidate-the-labour-leadership-race-and-the-trilateral-commission/
https://sputniknews.com/columnists/202007251079978522-sir-keir-starmer-should-be-ashamed--he-is-an-establishment-stand-up/
https://www.marxist.com/britain-keir-starmer-the-establishment-s-knight-in-shining-armour.htm
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2021/07/21/heres-why-starmer-really-could-be-destroying-labour-as-an-effective-opposition-to-the-tories/
https://tonygreenstein.com/2020/02/keir-starmer-is-the-candidate-that-the-deep-state-the-british-establishment-want-you-to-vote-for/

[Sangria]

Reading some social media stuff;

Binned membership because..


He wasn’t my choice
Because he’s a Sir which means he is the establishment
Because Labour are led by someone who is the establishment
He’s playing Labour voters because he’s protecting the establishment
He’s fake and being manipulated by the establishment
He’s a Neo-Liberal
Biggest joke and worst leader. Stands for nothing, says nothing, does nothing
He’s a vindictive twerp masquerading as its leader.. he’s leading a charade.. and against healthcare and education..
.. turned mine in for the same reasons
.. I’ve done the same
.. I’m thinking of doing the same..
.. He has put paid to me staying...

I'd bet a number of those making this complaint gave their support to George Galloway.

[reddebs]

Reading some social media stuff;

Binned membership because..


He wasn’t my choice
Because he’s a Sir which means he is the establishment
Because Labour are led by someone who is the establishment
He’s playing Labour voters because he’s protecting the establishment
He’s fake and being manipulated by the establishment
He’s a Neo-Liberal
Biggest joke and worst leader. Stands for nothing, says nothing, does nothing
He’s a vindictive twerp masquerading as its leader.. he’s leading a charade.. and against healthcare and education..
.. turned mine in for the same reasons
.. I’ve done the same
.. I’m thinking of doing the same..
.. He has put paid to me staying...

Ah well let them go to the political wastelands I'm sure they'll find someone who lives up to their image of working class hero.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I like Starmer, but the greatest politician ever to have lived  would have a near impossible job of it.  This Parliament is about detoxifying Labour.  If he does that, he’s done his job.

I dont agree, the tories are involved in so much sleaze, corruption and cronyism we shoulod be chipping away at their lead easily

when you say detoxify the party can I assume you mean  the cult of Corbyn and anti semitism  as I dont see that as a vote winner at all it just puts off certain sections of left wing labour voters. The number of British jews is smaller than British muslims and the bank robber, letter box PM Got an 80 seat majority