Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 493222 times)

Offline hitman89762000

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Erm this is just my view im not by any means a spokesman or expert in this and whilst it may make the club more money im very doubtful that safe standing schemes would ever happen at anfield... Especially if opposed by te familes of te 96 and survivors of hillsborough. Wouldn't it take a lot f work from the club toget them onside and wouldnt it be est to consider their feelings as opposed to financial gains?

As i said imnno expert or spokesman but if they oppose it its a definate no go imo
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Offline Peter McGurk

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it did you just can't see the point ...anyhow if you dont get it ,you dont get it

We’ve always had higher priced tickets and lower priced tickets.

The club is and always has been a business - back in the day, John Houlding wanted to sell beer. It has always had to be a successful business to be a successful club. It has never been shy of “ripping off the better off” as some would put it.

The levelling out of prices at Anfield has been a bad thing. We have some of the highest prices for standard tickets in the country.

Less than 1% of capacity are in boxes (312 people). About 5% in total pay premium prices. Increasing the number of premium tickets can only help keep standard prices in check against the upward pressure of player costs. This is a good thing.

Now if you're going to tell me that player costs are going to drop... meanwhile Safestanding can reduce prices and the club can continue to compete.

***

To re-use your quote: "The Kop is exclusive, an institution, and if you are a member of the Kop you feel like you are...” - Shankly was talking about the Kop - not the whole ground. Not the hoi-polloi in the Main Stand. Not the 244 people in the Director’s Box.

There’s always been that difference. Like it or not. Socialist or not.

No-one is suggesting plastic flags and song sheets. The suggestion is prices that are closer to what people can afford. If you think that’s patronising, some jolly entertainment for the nobs, take a look at yourself.

You want everyone of a certain type excluded. Everyone with a few bob - or even lots of bobs - need not apply. Not wanted here. Stay at home with your cucumber sandwiches - this game is not for you.

Whereas Shankly’s Kop was ‘exclusive’ because you aspired to be a member - not because he had a chip on his shoulder about the well-off.

***

The ‘final’ Taylor Report is about hooliganism and controlling hooliganism. Nowhere does Taylor argue that sitting people down makes them quieter (I’m sure you can find a copy of his report on the internet) His recommendation for all-seating is about control. Controlling numbers, controlling access and exit etc. I’m afraid you’ve just made that up.

And more especially, Taylor recommended knowing who people are (so they can be excluded if necessary). At the time and burning with righteous indignation after Heysel, Thatcher wanted ID cards for football fans and stamping out hooliganism. She didn’t get ID cards but she got names and addresses linked to every ticket sold.

***

And yet - you’re quite happy for people to sit! Because that’s not important you say. The common culture, being one, speaking with one voice is all that is important, is what you say.

And still yet - there is an intrinsic unity in standing. Together, as a crowd. As one body. As one voice. With the team. You simply do not get that sitting down. Watching the team. Being a spectator not a participant.

I’m sorry for those who have not experienced it. I believe the club and the sense of unity you are looking for would benefit from it. That is not inappropriate.

And it is not out of disrespect for those who died at Hillsborough. They didn’t die because they were standing. Standing didn’t cause Hillsborough.

***

Safestanding is not the terraces of old. It’s not fighting for survival, foot on the bar or in the boys’ pen. In those terms it’s tame. Safestanding is about remaining competitive as a business and gaining access and availability at prices that are not beyond our means.

Taylor said prices needn’t go up because of seating. How optimistic was he... They went up almost tenfold, almost overnight. Now, £45 to watch a football match is ludicrous.

But you say it’s not about cheaper tickets! Presumably you say that as long as you subscribe to a common culture (or done your 1000 posts) that’s all good - even if you can’t afford to go to the game or the club doesn’t work as business.

You say it’s not about standing up or sitting down. It’s about common culture. No matter the price. No matter the availability. No matter the economic viability of the club. Unless we come up with loyalty or some such schemes which bridge the gap - if we can’t float together, we should sink together?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:34:15 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Snaily

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see link below

.


Thats a very interesting read, i'll keep an eye on your future blogs.

Do you think the property acquisistion would be enough to facilitate your ideas, i assume that's what they are and so far neither the club or council haev proposed something similar.

do you know what potential there is for extending the kop back across WBR or rerouting it?


Offline Peter McGurk

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Do you think the property acquisistion would be enough to facilitate your ideas, i assume that's what they are and so far neither the club or council haev proposed something similar.

do you know what potential there is for extending the kop back across WBR or rerouting it?

When the club knows the extent of available land, it can plan accordingly. That is what they said.

Limited. Not just by the road and/or properties but by the economic viability. Quite a lot of cost for not a lot more income.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:30:32 am by Peter McGurk »

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We’ve always had higher priced tickets and lower priced tickets.

The club is and always has been a business - back in the day, John Houlding wanted to sell beer. It has always had to be a successful business to be a successful club. It has never been shy of “ripping off the better off” as some would put it.

The levelling out of prices at Anfield has been a bad thing. We have some of the highest prices for standard tickets in the country.

Less than 1% of capacity are in boxes (312 people). About 5% in total pay premium prices. Increasing the number of premium tickets can only help keep standard prices in check against the upward pressure of player costs. This is a good thing.

Now if you're going to tell me that player costs are going to drop... meanwhile Safestanding can reduce prices and the club can continue to compete.

***

To re-use your quote: "The Kop is exclusive, an institution, and if you are a member of the Kop you feel like you are...” - Shankly was talking about the Kop - not the whole ground. Not the hoi-polloi in the Main Stand. Not the 244 people in the Director’s Box.

There’s always been that difference. Like it or not. Socialist or not.

No-one is suggesting plastic flags and song sheets. The suggestion is prices that are closer to what people can afford. If you think that’s patronising, some jolly entertainment for the nobs, take a look at yourself.

You want everyone of a certain type excluded. Everyone with a few bob - or even lots of bobs - need not apply. Not wanted here. Stay at home with your cucumber sandwiches - this game is not for you.

Whereas Shankly’s Kop was ‘exclusive’ because you aspired to be a member - not because he had a chip on his shoulder about the well-off.

***

The ‘final’ Taylor Report is about hooliganism and controlling hooliganism. Nowhere does Taylor argue that sitting people down makes them quieter (I’m sure you can find a copy of his report on the internet) His recommendation for all-seating is about control. Controlling numbers, controlling access and exit etc. I’m afraid you’ve just made that up.

And more especially, Taylor recommended knowing who people are (so they can be excluded if necessary). At the time and burning with righteous indignation after Heysel, Thatcher wanted ID cards for football fans and stamping out hooliganism. She didn’t get ID cards but she got names and addresses linked to every ticket sold.

***

And yet - you’re quite happy for people to sit! Because that’s not important you say. The common culture, being one, speaking with one voice is all that is important, is what you say.

And still yet - there is an intrinsic unity in standing. Together, as a crowd. As one body. As one voice. With the team. You simply do not get that sitting down. Watching the team. Being a spectator not a participant.

I’m sorry for those who have not experienced it. I believe the club and the sense of unity you are looking for would benefit from it. That is not inappropriate.

And it is not out of disrespect for those who died at Hillsborough. They didn’t die because they were standing. Standing didn’t cause Hillsborough.

***

Safestanding is not the terraces of old. It’s not fighting for survival, foot on the bar or in the boys’ pen. In those terms it’s tame. Safestanding is about remaining competitive as a business and gaining access and availability at prices that are not beyond our means.

Taylor said prices needn’t go up because of seating. How optimistic was he... They went up almost tenfold, almost overnight. Now, £45 to watch a football match is ludicrous.

But you say it’s not about cheaper tickets! Presumably you say that as long as you subscribe to a common culture (or done your 1000 posts) that’s all good - even if you can’t afford to go to the game or the club doesn’t work as business.

You say it’s not about standing up or sitting down. It’s about common culture. No matter the price. No matter the availability. No matter the economic viability of the club. Unless we come up with loyalty or some such schemes which bridge the gap - if we can’t float together, we should sink together?


It is far harder to control number though when you have standing though, the old Wembley was a perfect example when if there was nine of you with tickets and only five for one part of the terrace one of you would go out to the concourse with five tickets and then the other four could get back in and all of a sudden there is 9 people in one area with only five tickets. That is much harder to do with an all seater stadium also in the day of the hoodie how do you identify fans when you do not have a specific seat number.
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It is far harder to control number though when you have standing though, the old Wembley was a perfect example when if there was nine of you with tickets and only five for one part of the terrace one of you would go out to the concourse with five tickets and then the other four could get back in and all of a sudden there is 9 people in one area with only five tickets. That is much harder to do with an all seater stadium also in the day of the hoodie how do you identify fans when you do not have a specific seat number.

In safe standing everyone has a pre-arranged place to stand, Row 27 Spot 23A for example, would be on your ticket. It would be as simple as seeing if 3 people are sat over 2 seats to notice more than 1 person in a designated spot for the stewards or police.

This isn't like any old system of get a ticket for the stand and get anywhere, or trick the stewards to get more into a section.

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That is much harder to do with an all seater stadium also in the day of the hoodie how do you identify fans when you do not have a specific seat number.

Presumably these fold down seats are specific areas used for tickets with a seat number?  If I've got the idea, the standing times have two persons per seat area, so presumably can be marked on the ticket as 34A, 34B.

If you don't have a ticket, you get kicked out.

You're using the example of Wembley, when Wembley was horrendously disorganised at the best of times.  Not really a good benchmark.  :)
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Presumably these fold down seats are specific areas used for tickets with a seat number?  If I've got the idea, the standing times have two persons per seat area, so presumably can be marked on the ticket as 34A, 34B.

If you don't have a ticket, you get kicked out.

You're using the example of Wembley, when Wembley was horrendously disorganised at the best of times.  Not really a good benchmark.  :)

So what happens when a goal goes in during a big game do you spend the next five minutes trying to find your spot to stand on. Seats stay in the same place people on terraces don't. Also what happens with the rake of the terrace, seats need a bigger rake than terraces do and how many people do you need to employ as extra stewards and to change from a terrace to a stand.
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Offline longball

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Are there any families of the 96 that would support safe standing?

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So what happens when a goal goes in during a big game do you spend the next five minutes trying to find your spot to stand on. Seats stay in the same place people on terraces don't. Also what happens with the rake of the terrace, seats need a bigger rake than terraces do and how many people do you need to employ as extra stewards and to change from a terrace to a stand.

That first sentence can happen just the same with seats. Lost count the amount of times I've gone mental on the stairs (my ST seats are on the isle) after we have scored. It's not hard to spot my row and seat number after, as it wouldn't be hard to spot your row and standing spot number.

The rake of the Kop currently is exactly what the safe standing recommends I believe, however Peter is best answering that.

I'd imagine the steward to spectator ratio stays the same as seating, so if the amount of people in the area of seating doubles (it doesn't quite double) then so would the amount of stewards patrolling that area. As for the change, it's as simple as unlocking or locking the seat in place, wouldn't take long to do that.

Offline longball

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So what happens when a goal goes in during a big game do you spend the next five minutes trying to find your spot to stand on. Seats stay in the same place people on terraces don't. Also what happens with the rake of the terrace, seats need a bigger rake than terraces do and how many people do you need to employ as extra stewards and to change from a terrace to a stand.

Have you even bothered to look at the German examples? Even just looking at the pictures you can see how it'd be much easier to keep people in their places than the current arrangement.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 01:52:57 pm by longball »

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Al - look at the video on here, it'll show how the standing/seating works in a real stadium environment.

http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/view/safe-standing-campaign

Offline Peter McGurk

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Are there any families of the 96 that would support safe standing?

I shouldn't think so. There's nothing you can say that can make their loss any better. But for sure, standing wasn't the problem.


That first sentence can happen just the same with seats. Lost count the amount of times I've gone mental on the stairs (my ST seats are on the isle) after we have scored. It's not hard to spot my row and seat number after, as it wouldn't be hard to spot your row and standing spot number.

The rake of the Kop currently is exactly what the safe standing recommends I believe, however Peter is best answering that.

I'd imagine the steward to spectator ratio stays the same as seating, so if the amount of people in the area of seating doubles (it doesn't quite double) then so would the amount of stewards patrolling that area. As for the change, it's as simple as unlocking or locking the seat in place, wouldn't take long to do that.

Yes indeed. You have to appreciate that this is nothing like a terrace of old. There’s a barrier every two standing steps. So only one person standing behind another between the barriers. Every space has a number and the number is on your ticket. Tickets 12A and 12B for standing matches.

There's one folding down seat for every two standing steps. Ticket 12 for seating matches. Twenty-eight seats in a row - just like now.

It’s safe. It’s safer than standing in our seated areas are now. Even sitting down it’s safer (because every seat has barrier in front of you for when we score).

The minimum step width is 280mm (for an existing construction - for new it would be 350mm). Two steps is 560mm minimum. Current rake of the Kop is 660mm. The kop is about 24º (it changes slightly about a third of the way up). UK regs for standing are 25º max.

Even at that, the UK regs assume barriers several metres apart, not every two steps. In Germany the rake is as much as 30 plus degrees.


« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 02:30:46 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Less of a chance of a DVT for sure. Those seats in the mainstand, I can't sit on them, my knee to hip is too long.  I have to hover. It's like using a public bog that's been heavily bombed for two 45 minute stretches.

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That first sentence can happen just the same with seats. Lost count the amount of times I've gone mental on the stairs (my ST seats are on the isle) after we have scored. It's not hard to spot my row and seat number after, as it wouldn't be hard to spot your row and standing spot number.

The rake of the Kop currently is exactly what the safe standing recommends I believe, however Peter is best answering that.

I'd imagine the steward to spectator ratio stays the same as seating, so if the amount of people in the area of seating doubles (it doesn't quite double) then so would the amount of stewards patrolling that area. As for the change, it's as simple as unlocking or locking the seat in place, wouldn't take long to do that.

The thing is it if you are in the middle of a row with safe standing it is much easier to get out onto the aisles and surge down the steps than it is with a row of seats and people stopping you moving sideways. You also have the problem that when people get used to standing they are going to be far more reluctant to sit down.

You also have the problem of what happens if the fella in front of you is huge are people really going to stand behind each other or are they going move sideways so they can get a better view.
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The thing is it if you are in the middle of a row with safe standing it is much easier to get out onto the aisles and surge down the steps than it is with a row of seats and people stopping you moving sideways. You also have the problem that when people get used to standing they are going to be far more reluctant to sit down.

You also have the problem of what happens if the fella in front of you is huge are people really going to stand behind each other or are they going move sideways so they can get a better view.

It will be no easier to get out than now, there will still be people to the left of you and people to the right of you. It would be just the same as in a seated area when someone scores and everyone stands up as the seats automatically go into an upright position.

You maybe would have the issue of people being reluctant to sit down, but we have that issue now and if anything this makes it slightly safer due to the barriers being higher than the back of a seat as it currently is. The issue in that situation is stewards controlling the crowd and not the stand/seating arrangement.

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You also have the problem of what happens if the fella in front of you is huge are people really going to stand behind each other or are they going move sideways so they can get a better view.

You can shove in as many 'what if' observations as you like - what if martians invaded?  What if the bloke next to you in a seated area spontaneously combusts?  What if season ticket holder Bob forgets his sandwiches?

There are a number of tickets - tickets are checked on the way in.  People have places to stand.  If there's trouble, people can be checked for their ticket, and if they don't have one, can be ejected.  Perhaps a stipulation on the ticket that you must be in your area if requested, or you'll be ejected.  It about stewarding and checking tickets properly.  If someone is acting like a twat, throw them out.  Presumably where this system works well (Germany) they have their fair share of larger gutted match-goers?

It's a tried and trusted system with people who have practical experience of how it works.
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It will be no easier to get out than now, there will still be people to the left of you and people to the right of you. It would be just the same as in a seated area when someone scores and everyone stands up as the seats automatically go into an upright position.

You maybe would have the issue of people being reluctant to sit down, but we have that issue now and if anything this makes it slightly safer due to the barriers being higher than the back of a seat as it currently is. The issue in that situation is stewards controlling the crowd and not the stand/seating arrangement.

That's not really true mate rail seats take up far less room.





The other problem is that how much extra capacity do you actually gain there has been talk of rail seats in the SPL but they would only give the same capacity as normal seats. You also have the problem of more people trying to use the same number of exits in an emergency.

It is not as straightforward as it seems especially when rail seats are almost three times as expensive as normal seats to install.
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You can shove in as many 'what if' observations as you like - what if martians invaded?  What if the bloke next to you in a seated area spontaneously combusts?  What if season ticket holder Bob forgets his sandwiches?

There are a number of tickets - tickets are checked on the way in.  People have places to stand.  If there's trouble, people can be checked for their ticket, and if they don't have one, can be ejected.  Perhaps a stipulation on the ticket that you must be in your area if requested, or you'll be ejected.  It about stewarding and checking tickets properly.  If someone is acting like a twat, throw them out.  Presumably where this system works well (Germany) they have their fair share of larger gutted match-goers?

It's a tried and trusted system with people who have practical experience of how it works.

I think you have to admit there are pretty big cultural differences in how people react to authority in Germany and in England.
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That's not really true mate rail seats take up far less room.


The other problem is that how much extra capacity do you actually gain there has been talk of rail seats in the SPL but they would only give the same capacity as normal seats. You also have the problem of more people trying to use the same number of exits in an emergency.

It is not as straightforward as it seems especially when rail seats are almost three times as expensive as normal seats to install.

People stand on both rows in those pictures you sent so no more 'extra' room for people to get out and go celebrating all over the show to be honest.

As for the exits, I think it may require more but not 100% certain on that. Remember you don't have the issue of seats to trip over through, or being able to fall over the sets in front of you as would have barriers to help flow the exit.

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People stand on both rows in those pictures you sent so no more 'extra' room for people to get out and go celebrating all over the show to be honest.

As for the exits, I think it may require more but not 100% certain on that. Remember you don't have the issue of seats to trip over through, or being able to fall over the sets in front of you as would have barriers to help flow the exit.

In Germany it goes from 1.2 people standing to 1.8 in this Country the regulations state that 1.8 is the maximum and that is without the space taken up by the furniture. In Germany the average is 1.4 fans so given the prices would have to be reduced there is very little profit in it for the Club. Plus if you have 1.4 fans to a space then it is going to be much easier to move into the aisles and a real headache for the stewards especially if you do it in the away end.
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In Germany it goes from 1.2 people standing to 1.8 in this Country the regulations state that 1.8 is the maximum and that is without the space taken up by the furniture. In Germany the average is 1.4 fans so given the prices would have to be reduced there is very little profit in it for the Club. Plus if you have 1.4 fans to a space then it is going to be much easier to move into the aisles and a real headache for the stewards especially if you do it in the away end.

The profit may not come from tickets, it is any associated income. Be it food/merchandise in the ground, or be it new set of fans buying further items over the following years. It may also come from the added value a loud and packed Kop would bring to the club.

Everyone has a set place, with a ticket displaying that spot, I see no reason why this would be any different to areas where people currently stand where seats are installed.

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The profit may not come from tickets, it is any associated income. Be it food/merchandise in the ground, or be it new set of fans buying further items over the following years. It may also come from the added value a loud and packed Kop would bring to the club.

Everyone has a set place, with a ticket displaying that spot, I see no reason why this would be any different to areas where people currently stand where seats are installed.

People will want to stand with their mates and people will want to stand where the best view is, as for food and merchandising if they cannot afford a full priced seat where will the money for food and merchandising come from.  As for a ticket displaying where to stand what is to stop people from binning their ticket as soon as they get in. When culturally thousands of people binning their ticket means they can stand where they like and with who they like then it is likely to happen, just as fans standing up happens.
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I think both Peter and Grinch(still xmas?) have made valid points for both arguments.


The fact is though, that we won't have standing at anfield.  It won't be acceptable to the the families or to the likes of king Kenny. 

I know there are logical reasons to support it, but emotive reasons will (and for me should) win over here.
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People will want to stand with their mates and people will want to stand where the best view is, as for food and merchandising if they cannot afford a full priced seat where will the money for food and merchandising come from.  As for a ticket displaying where to stand what is to stop people from binning their ticket as soon as they get in. When culturally thousands of people binning their ticket means they can stand where they like and with who they like then it is likely to happen, just as fans standing up happens.

Whats to stop them doing the same with their tickets with regards to seats?

I'd imagine they will be required to purchase a fan card to buy tickets, so therefore you have to keep your fan card anyway, and a quick scan on a hand held device would show their standing space number. I get what you're saying, and do sort of agree, but these are all issues which are possible with seats also and is more a stewarding issue than an issue of it people stand or sit.

As for the income, as said if the profit from ticket sales is similar (after costs of install, etc) then you could argue you are encouraging a larger fan base to become more connected with the club by visiting games. This may lead to some of these moving to more expensive seated tickets as the get older/have a family, or maybe to corporate seats if they get a bit flush. And as said, the Kop is a big marketing pull for the club, having it back to being loud and packed will only help the club 'sell' so to speak (like it or not!).


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The fact is though, that we won't have standing at anfield.  It won't be acceptable to the the families or to the likes of king Kenny. 

I know there are logical reasons to support it, but emotive reasons will (and for me should) win over here.

Agreed, I can't see it happening in the short-medium term. Maybe beyond that, but it's a different issue for the club than just current UK legislation.

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I think we have to look at how match tickets came to be so expensive. We had a period of higher employment, higher living standards and more disposable income as a backdrop to the collision of two things Football became far more popular as a result of the Premier league/ Sky phenomenon at the time when Clubs had to reduce capacity because of Taylor. Add in the advent of low cost carriers and the result was that demand massively outstripped supply, if you weren't prepared to pay a massive premium to carry on watching the game then someone else would.

The World has changed unemployment is a huge problem for young people who are the target audience and people in general have less disposable income. If you massively increase supply under those circumstances then you are taking a massive gamble because once they begin to equal out your product has less perceived value. It's human nature if something has a waiting list then it's value increases.

The owners are looking to cash in on that perceived premium value as they did in Boston, they want to turn games into events. That doesn't happen if you have rows of empty seats. How can you make something appear to be special if there are thousands of empty spaces unfilled because people don't want to be there.
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I don't think you can treat all tickets the same though when it comes to demand.

People wanting corps for instance wouldn't want standard seated or standing.

The biggest overlap you'll get would be between standing and normal seated, with some in what would become standing wanting seated, and some who want seated will want standing. You'd hope that would balance it self out. It would also open up a whole new market if the ticket prices were lower so demand should be increased there also.

The club has stated a sweet spot of 60-61k, which you'd presume is sweet because it leaves some excess demand still (ignoring cost implications of building for a higher capacity than that).

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When the club knows the extent of available land, it can plan accordingly. That is what they said.

Limited. Not just by the road and/or properties but by the economic viability. Quite a lot of cost for not a lot more income.

i agree it would be costly and i suppose i put a rather arbitary 5000 increase to try and justify the cost and at the same time give the kop stand the kind of size and stature that could be marketed in order to help pay for the cost.

As said above, the kop is a big draw and the most famous part of Anfield, it is an attraction in it's own right, surely an oversized single tier kop would part pay for itself through marketing/sponsorship and would make it financially viable.  this would then leave the actual logistics of doing it the biggest obstacle and i would think now is the window of opportunity for the club to make sure the redevelopment plans for the area do not prevent a future increase of the kop.

If the club don't act now will the opportunity be lost forever.


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People will want to stand with their mates and people will want to stand where the best view is, as for food and merchandising if they cannot afford a full priced seat where will the money for food and merchandising come from.  As for a ticket displaying where to stand what is to stop people from binning their ticket as soon as they get in. When culturally thousands of people binning their ticket means they can stand where they like and with who they like then it is likely to happen, just as fans standing up happens.

The cameras at Anfield now can pick out snot at a 1000 yards. You don’t think they’ll spot bunching? And who’s going to give up their (tightly-defined) spec so you can stand where you like?.

Not only that, you can only gain access to your place from a given entrance. Ah but you’ll work your way over... and you’ll get slung out.


i agree it would be costly and i suppose i put a rather arbitary 5000 increase to try and justify the cost and at the same time give the kop stand the kind of size and stature that could be marketed in order to help pay for the cost.

As said above, the kop is a big draw and the most famous part of Anfield, it is an attraction in it's own right, surely an oversized single tier kop would part pay for itself through marketing/sponsorship and would make it financially viable.  this would then leave the actual logistics of doing it the biggest obstacle and i would think now is the window of opportunity for the club to make sure the redevelopment plans for the area do not prevent a future increase of the kop.

If the club don't act now will the opportunity be lost forever.

Not so. There's nothing about developing two stands that means you cannot do more later.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 08:19:29 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Not so. There's nothing about developing two stands that means you cannot do more later.

i mean if the council have plans for that part of WBR, plus venmore and hartnup streets will mean the club will not be able to purchase the land necessary to extend the kop.  maybe i'm getting a bit ahead of myself.

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First off thanks for the reply – I appreciate the time and effort


We’ve always had higher priced tickets and lower priced tickets.

Probably although I wasn’t around before WWII so I can’t swear  to it.

The club is and always has been a business - back in the day, John Houlding wanted to sell beer. It has always had to be a successful business to be a successful club. It has never been shy of “ripping off the better off” as some would put it.

I’ve already said it has always been a business. Your interpretation of why it existed is entirely your own though. For me it changed several times. For example, I believe under Moores for his many faults he did try to run the club as a community asset much more than a genuine business. That brought its own problems as we know but I think that was down to ineffective management rather than philosophy. Shanks had his own interpretation for the use of the Board of course.

The levelling out of prices at Anfield has been a bad thing. We have some of the highest prices for standard tickets in the country.

You have evidence for this in clubs with a similar demand for tickets?


Less than 1% of capacity are in boxes (312 people). About 5% in total pay premium prices. Increasing the number of premium tickets can only help keep standard prices in check against the upward pressure of player costs. This is a good thing.

You don’t know how the money acquired will be spent.

Do you have an idea of how many corporate seats or premium seats there will be in the redeveloped ground? Do you know what proportion of the money obtained will come from higher price tickets? If that proportion is high will the business model going forward take cognisance of how financially important that ‘small %’ of higher payers is?

Now if you're going to tell me that player costs are going to drop... meanwhile Safestanding can reduce prices and the club can continue to compete.

You seem to think I’m against safe standing. I’m not. I'm against division.  I’d much prefer safe standing to the potentially tragic hypocrisy we have now at European games. What I would object to was any attempt to go against the wishes of the Hillsborough families.

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To re-use your quote: "The Kop is exclusive, an institution, and if you are a member of the Kop you feel like you are...” - Shankly was talking about the Kop - not the whole ground. Not the hoi-polloi in the Main Stand. Not the 244 people in the Director’s Box.

Hoi polloi means common man, not auld grumbling git.

The  Kop though is the heart of Anfield – if there were to be safe standing anywhere it would need to be there. Safe standing would potentially therefore need to be at the heart of the Kop and do you then divide the Kop into standing and none standing?

There’s always been that difference. Like it or not. Socialist or not.
No-one is suggesting plastic flags and song sheets. The suggestion is prices that are closer to what people can afford. If you think that’s patronising, some jolly entertainment for the nobs, take a look at yourself.

‘take a look at myself?’ The thread is filled with how the Kop will draw in admirers, how the sight will sell tickets – our marketing men and commercial agents wouldn’t dream of creating an attraction to increase sponsorship or sell a box I’m sure. All in it together apart from those well these and those and well them over there....

You want everyone of a certain type excluded. Everyone with a few bob - or even lots of bobs - need not apply. Not wanted here. Stay at home with your cucumber sandwiches - this game is not for you.

No idea where this comes from maybe your won bias? Here you completely miss the point. I do want people of a certain type excluded that is true. I’d exclude those with no interest in LFC. Nowhere have I said I’m against people with a few bob. Oddly enough I’ve got a few bob myself. I’m for all being in it together for 90 minutes, regardless of creed, religion, race, wealth, sexual orientation, language, age, sex whatever – I’m for LFC being a community when we all get together. What I’m not for is anything that introduces division or the potential for division.

Whereas Shankly’s Kop was ‘exclusive’ because you aspired to be a member - not because he had a chip on his shoulder about the well-off.

See above. You can apologise later.***


The ‘final’ Taylor Report is about hooliganism and controlling hooliganism. Nowhere does Taylor argue that sitting people down makes them quieter (I’m sure you can find a copy of his report on the internet) His recommendation for all-seating is about control. Controlling numbers, controlling access and exit etc. I’m afraid you’ve just made that up.

I didn’t say anything about Taylor, you have repeatedly.  Talk to a policeman about crowd control. Any policemen. Do you really think I’ve made it up. You’ve already argued yourself that standing changes the atmosphere.........

And more especially, Taylor recommended knowing who people are (so they can be excluded if necessary). At the time and burning with righteous indignation after Heysel, Thatcher wanted ID cards for football fans and stamping out hooliganism. She didn’t get ID cards but she got names and addresses linked to every ticket sold.

We’ve covered this already.**

And yet - you’re quite happy for people to sit! Because that’s not important you say. The common culture, being one, speaking with one voice is all that is important, is what you say.

Again you are making assumptions about my personal preferences and priorities based on what?

And still yet - there is an intrinsic unity in standing. Together, as a crowd. As one body. As one voice. With the team. You simply do not get that sitting down. Watching the team. Being a spectator not a participant.

But there are no issues with control eh? Not with those emotions charged and engaged?

I’m sorry for those who have not experienced it. I believe the club and the sense of unity you are looking for would benefit from it. That is not inappropriate.

The inappropriateness as you fully understand comes from the Hillsborough families. Convince them and you’ll convince me. This is not entirely a logical discussion but an emotional one, a moral one. But if you introduce ‘safe standing’  then for me it’s the entire Kop not a s, ction of.  or as much a part of it as needed because all you’ll get is people standing in the seated section if you don’t. There will always be a place for seating for those more gentile souls and for the elderly etc just as it was back when we both enjoyed standing on the Kop no doubt with grandad sat in the stands ironically enough. But this wouldn't be on finanncial ground it would be on the basis the fans themsleves wanted it, preferred. We know full well financially the club could easily up the costs of this to the same as seating anytime they wanted.

And it is not out of disrespect for those who died at Hillsborough. They didn’t die because they were standing. Standing didn’t cause Hillsborough.

The causes are known, as are the families views. That is where the disrespect lies.***

Safestanding is not the terraces of old. It’s not fighting for survival, foot on the bar or in the boys’ pen. In those terms it’s tame. Safestanding is about remaining competitive as a business and gaining access and availability at prices that are not beyond our means.
 
Is safe standing really about remaining competitive as a business? Really?

Taylor said prices needn’t go up because of seating. How optimistic was he... They went up almost tenfold, almost overnight. Now, £45 to watch a football match is ludicrous.

I agree. Is this down to seating or to switching the game from a working class sport to a middle class entertainment for TV? You’ve seen the Sky adverts, 2.4 kids, smart ford car or whatever sponsor you want to sell, no tackling, the players not allowed to swear, the oligarchy of teams buying the title. You think this is addressed by a few ‘safe standing’?

But you say it’s not about cheaper tickets! Presumably you say that as long as you subscribe to a common culture (or done your 1000 posts) that’s all good - even if you can’t afford to go to the game or the club doesn’t work as business.

The 1000 posts was a bit bonkers but I was trying to include those from abroad who can’t contribute locally. As i said I’m not that bright.

The rest is a poor argument as it is not at all what I wrote. The idea is that it is about community a shared club, a shared experience. That those community bonds build that engagement. Do the costs really not stack up? A block of 300 seats bring in what 12k a game? So SG’s wages for one week could provide 3000 free seats...............that would bankrupt the club would it?


So  a local lottery quid a pop gets you  a in a hundred chance of  a ticket  - any excess given to local charities – building community but for a hundred quid a ticket or a club ticket were you put in a quid a week or attendance at the U21’s and youth side getting you credit for the big one – all going to bust the ’ business’. LFC is built on the premise YNWA, its the big selling point, we are different, we have the greatest fans in the world, a little investment in that comes back ten fold. Good business.

You say it’s not about standing up or sitting down. It’s about common culture. No matter the price. No matter the availability. No matter the economic viability of the club. Unless we come up with loyalty or some such schemes which bridge the gap - if we can’t float together, we should sink together?

A bit dramatic, go down fighting, sounds romantic enough but being a community club and sinking dont have to go go hand in hand do they. The germans have safe standing and they enjoy the largest crowds in europe, good atmosphere at the game and 50% minimum fan ownership of their clubs. Do you really belive these things exist in isolation?



Apologies for interweaving the text, bloody time consuming doing repeat quotes unless someone can teach me a quick way?

You want fan engagement give them an investment in their club then see how the atmosphere improves.

Barca, more than a club, fan ownership , where are their standing sections?

The atmosphere isn't a one dimensional problem.

We are sitting here typing, the community is out there its vast. The ideas to make it live and breathe are far more numerous than you or I can dream up.  A small section of safe standing doesn't cut it for me.

Anyway thanks again for taking the time.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:49:07 pm by Vulmea »
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Offline Peter McGurk

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First off thanks for the reply – I appreciate the time and effort

Apologies for interweaving the text, bloody time consuming doing repeat quotes unless someone can teach me a quick way?

You want fan engagement give them an investment in their club then see how the atmosphere improves.

Barca, more than a club, fan ownership , where are their standing sections?

The atmosphere isn't a one dimensional problem.

We are sitting here typing, the community is out there its vast. The ideas to make it live and breathe are far more numerous than you or I can dream up.  A small section of safe standing doesn't cut it for me.

Anyway thanks again for taking the time.

i don't want to go through that point by point. Not least of all because I don't want to unpick the contradictions and I imagine there's only you and I reading it. If you want detailed answers, you know where to find them in any event. But trying to pick out the underlying messages...

I believe we have all been confused by the Taylor Report.  We are being denied standing, not because of Hillsborough but to control Hooliganism. Thus we will not think about standing out of respect for those who lost loved ones. We have all been drawn to make an emotional response to a falsehood. Standing and the 96 have become intertwined. Justice and Safety have become muddled.

Meanwhile times do change. We are one of the worst ticket price offenders (see recent BBC surveys) yet our gate receipts still do not compete at the very top. I have long argued against a gin palace for the prawn sandwich brigade because it won't work in Liverpool. This is not a generally rich city. But we do need a way of getting the most we can to compete and at the same time maintaining access for the 'ordinary fan'.

I envisage a stadium and pricing structure to match, that has something for everyone from the Group Tens to a Boys' Pen. I envisage a stadium and pricing structure that is not fixed and can change from game to game to adjust supply to meet demand.

At one end of the scale, safe standing has the potential to do that. More access and cheaper tickets yet at least the same income if not more. But our shared misconceptions about Hillsborough are stopping us even looking at it. So the game gets further and further away from us.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:15:24 am by Peter McGurk »

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"But our shared misconceptions about Hillsborough are stopping us even looking at it. So the game gets further and further away from us".

Honest and courageous words from an honest and courageous writer.


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City bounce into the Money League top ten, swapping places with Inter. Liverpool stay at 9th. Matchday income up by £4.3m (11%). Thank you Kenny

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/sports/football/deloitte-football-money-league/c0d0cc64dac5c310VgnVCM3000003456f70aRCRD.htm#.UQEdtj-29yQ.twitter

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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The fact is though, that we won't have standing at anfield.  It won't be acceptable to the the families or to the likes of king Kenny. 

I know there are logical reasons to support it, but emotive reasons will (and for me should) win over here.

Which should be the end of the discussion really.
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City bounce into the Money League top ten, swapping places with Inter. Liverpool stay at 9th. Matchday income up by £4.3m (11%). Thank you Kenny

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/sports/football/deloitte-football-money-league/c0d0cc64dac5c310VgnVCM3000003456f70aRCRD.htm#.UQEdtj-29yQ.twitter
thats cool, with less games played too

what i dont understand is
"The £2.8m (4%) growth in commercial revenue to
£80.2m (€99.1m) is driven largely by the impact of the
new six-year kit sponsorship deal with Warrior Sports,
worth a reported £25m per year and among the most
lucrative in world footbal"

why is that included for last season when Warrior werent our supplier
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

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thats cool, with less games played too

what i dont understand is
"The £2.8m (4%) growth in commercial revenue to
£80.2m (€99.1m) is driven largely by the impact of the
new six-year kit sponsorship deal with Warrior Sports,
worth a reported £25m per year and among the most
lucrative in world footbal"

why is that included for last season when Warrior werent our supplier

Could possibly be due to only a months worth or something being taken into account.

Offline paulrazor

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Could possibly be due to only a months worth or something being taken into account.
seemed odd, atleast next season we should see atleast a 10m jump there from warrior i would think, theyre paying us about double what adidas did
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline Peter McGurk

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Which should be the end of the discussion really.

We've all been misled by events, emotions and loyalties. It's time it was addressed. Everything we complain about, about what we've lost of going to the match, comes back to this. Not for reasons of safety or Hillsborough but out of commercialism and rooting out Hooliganism. Turning a blind eye to being priced out, shut up and sat down doesn't help.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 04:06:26 pm by Peter McGurk »