Topic: Saudi Arabia has severed ties with Qatar

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Jeff Bezos is owner of the Washington Post and has been mum's to the word.

[Giono]

Jeff Bezos is owner of the Washington Post and has been mum's to the word.

Why should he say anything?

He is not a government official. He is not a journalist. He is an investor.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

He is not a government official. He is not a journalist. He is an investor.

As in, he is the "owner" of Washington Post and as an employer, the other poster probably feels that he should probably speak out in support of a free press. It doesnt have to be anything political or with a political agenda. I think.

[Giono]

As in, he is the "owner" of Washington Post and as an employer, the other poster probably feels that he should probably speak out in support of a free press. It doesnt have to be anything political or with a political agenda. I think.

Trump has been attacking Bezos for 2 years. If Bezos speaks out...what will happen? It won't help. It will muddy the waters like Trump likes. I am glad Bezos has said nothing. The journalists around the world are and that is what is needed.

[Nobby Reserve]

There's a beautiful symmetry in that we sell weapons to Saudi, who use them to murder children in Yemen. Then use some of that money to help ease the suffering of children in Yemen.

Sorry, my mistake. I said 'beautiful' when I meant 'barbaric'.

[classycarra]

There's a beautiful symmetry in that we sell weapons to Saudi, who use them to murder children in Yemen. Then use some of that money to help ease the suffering of children in Yemen.

Sorry, my mistake. I said 'beautiful' when I meant 'barbaric'.

Entirely playing devils advocate here....

Keeping things working at the same oversimplified level as that analogy, but given Saudi state resources it's probably a safe assumption that if they want weapons they'll buy them - whether from the UK or the US, or from Russia or Israel or China or whoever.

Would you prefer the UK to be earning money from these sales, that then contributes to the DFID budget (and other budgets) to "ease the suffering" or would you prefer the Saudi's gave that money to Putin's regime? Oversimplified options, but I'd still be interested in what situation people would prefer.

As I recall, the Russian state humanitarian effort in Syria hasn't done a single thing to ease the suffering of the civilians and healthcare professionals they've been bombing for years.

[Nobby Reserve]

Entirely playing devils advocate here....

Keeping things working at the same oversimplified level as that analogy, but given Saudi state resources it's probably a safe assumption that if they want weapons they'll buy them - whether from the UK or the US, or from Russia or Israel or China or whoever.

Would you prefer the UK to be earning money from these sales, that then contributes to the DFID budget (and other budgets) to "ease the suffering" or would you prefer the Saudi's gave that money to Putin's regime? Oversimplified options, but I'd still be interested in what situation people would prefer.

As I recall, the Russian state humanitarian effort in Syria hasn't done a single thing to ease the suffering of the civilians and healthcare professionals they've been bombing for years.

Care to say where you draw the line on your 'if we didn't sell arms to them, someone else would' analogy?

[BarryCrocker]

Entirely playing devils advocate here....

Keeping things working at the same oversimplified level as that analogy, but given Saudi state resources it's probably a safe assumption that if they want weapons they'll buy them - whether from the UK or the US, or from Russia or Israel or China or whoever.

Would you prefer the UK to be earning money from these sales, that then contributes to the DFID budget (and other budgets) to "ease the suffering" or would you prefer the Saudi's gave that money to Putin's regime? Oversimplified options, but I'd still be interested in what situation people would prefer.

As I recall, the Russian state humanitarian effort in Syria hasn't done a single thing to ease the suffering of the civilians and healthcare professionals they've been bombing for years.

So in simple terms it comes down to whether, you have the option to sell a gun thats going to kill some child or you allow your enemy.

[Red-Soldier]

Care to say where you draw the line on your 'if we didn't sell arms to them, someone else would' analogy?

If we didn't sell crack to them, somebody else will.

If we didn't groom those children and ensnare them into prostitution, somebody else will 

[rafathegaffa83]

He was a Washington Post writer and that is why he was killed. That is why the globalmedia is fixated on this atrocity.

In addition to being a WaPo journalist, he was a leading critic of Saudi Arabia. Also, you have the fact that Kushner and MBS appear to be Whatsapp pals and Trump's previous business deals with Saudi Arabia, not to mention his lax attitude to this event

[Nobby Reserve]

In addition to being a WaPo journalist, he was a leading critic of Saudi Arabia. Also, you have the fact that Kushner and MBS appear to Whatsapp pals and Trump's previous business deals with Saudi Arabia, not to mention his lax attitude to this event

Remember Kashoggi was close to the regime for a long time, being editor of regime-sanctioned newspapers and reportedly also working for the Saudi intelligence agency. He was fired for allowing one his columnists to print an article critical of 13th century hardline cleric Taymiyya, but still worked for the regime in London, before returning as editor-in-chief of Al-Watan. Fired in 2015 for again allowing a column that didn't get past the regime 'ministry of free will suppression', he still kept working for the regime. It was only in 2016 that he became outwardly critical of the regime (ironically, it was apparently his public criticism of Trump that saw him become persona non grata).


(info mostly sourced from Wiki)

[Andy_lfc]

Entirely playing devils advocate here....

Keeping things working at the same oversimplified level as that analogy, but given Saudi state resources it's probably a safe assumption that if they want weapons they'll buy them - whether from the UK or the US, or from Russia or Israel or China or whoever.

Would you prefer the UK to be earning money from these sales, that then contributes to the DFID budget (and other budgets) to "ease the suffering" or would you prefer the Saudi's gave that money to Putin's regime? Oversimplified options, but I'd still be interested in what situation people would prefer.

As I recall, the Russian state humanitarian effort in Syria hasn't done a single thing to ease the suffering of the civilians and healthcare professionals they've been bombing for years.

That argument displays an astounding lack of morality - basically fuck the world as long as I get my share.  In relative terms the money Saudi Arabia spend on British and American weapons is a small fraction of the overall exports of these countries - a loss that would be easily absorbed.  The question is who do we want to be as a country?  We cannot solve all the problems of the world, but we can restrict another country's ability to commit atrocities.  Our current government, however, have chosen to be complicit.

Also, it is not a quick or easy decision to move to entirely different weapons systems.  The Saudi defense infrastructure will be built around these weapons and that would largely have to be rebuilt to accommodate, say, Russian weapon systems for example.  It is not like switching to a new brand of coffee.  So there would be financial, technical, administrative and logisitical cost to SA if US/UK weapons supply was restricted.  It would absolutely hinder their ability to fight a war in Yemen at least for a time.

[Ray K]

Remember Kashoggi was close to the regime for a long time, being editor of regime-sanctioned newspapers and reportedly also working for the Saudi intelligence agency. He was fired for allowing one his columnists to print an article critical of 13th century hardline cleric Taymiyya, but still worked for the regime in London, before returning as editor-in-chief of Al-Watan. Fired in 2015 for again allowing a column that didn't get past the regime 'ministry of free will suppression', he still kept working for the regime. It was only in 2016 that he became outwardly critical of the regime (ironically, it was apparently his public criticism of Trump that saw him become persona non grata).


(info mostly sourced from Wiki)

Nothing ironic about it.  The reason that he was exiled from Saudi Arabia is that he criticised Trump.

Trump is now working with the Saudis to cover up his murder, because the House of Saud pays Trump bribes. Trump doesn't care about Lockheed Martin's business plans.   

Trump is an accessory to murder after the fact.

[Andy_lfc]

Nothing ironic about it.  The reason that he was exiled from Saudi Arabia is that he criticised Trump.

Trump is now working with the Saudis to cover up his murder, because the House of Saud pays Trump bribes. Trump doesn't care about Lockheed Martin's business plans.   

Trump is an accessory to murder after the fact.

Hard to disagree with this - the economic/arms export argument is garbage.

[Nobby Reserve]

Hard to disagree with this - the economic/arms export argument is garbage.

It's not really garbage. Successive US presidents had toadied up to the shitstains in Riyadh to secure $multi-billion arms/business deals. And they also need a friendly Saudi regime to keep oil prices relatively stable.

That isn't to defend Trump, or deny he has one eye on his own personal enrichment with Saudi klepto-dollars. But the other considerations do also have substance.

[Giono]

In addition to being a WaPo journalist, he was a leading critic of Saudi Arabia. Also, you have the fact that Kushner and MBS appear to be Whatsapp pals and Trump's previous business deals with Saudi Arabia, not to mention his lax attitude to this event

Ya, but there have been other critics and no reaction. Where was the international media when the Saudis decided to play hardball with Canada for critiquing them? This story isn't going anywhere fast.

[sashraf1066]

Turkish newspaper reporting that one of the suspects  involved in the disappearance of Saudi writer Jamal Khashoggi died in a “suspicious car accident” in Riyadh.

 http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/saudi-suspect-in-khashoggi-case-dies-in-car-accident-report-138007

[jambutty]

These fuckers have been summarily executing people for years.

This was on their territory in Istanbul, so other than sanctions, the world can do fuck all.

They'll say they had evidence, that he'd been tried in absentia and sentenced to death.

What the international community should do is establish a Khasoggi Prize for outstanding courage in journalism to rub MBS' nose in his own shite every year.

[Andy_lfc]

It's not really garbage. Successive US presidents had toadied up to the shitstains in Riyadh to secure $multi-billion arms/business deals. And they also need a friendly Saudi regime to keep oil prices relatively stable.

That isn't to defend Trump, or deny he has one eye on his own personal enrichment with Saudi klepto-dollars. But the other considerations do also have substance.

Fair point, garbage was a bit strong.  I meant in isolation arms deals isn't the only reason for Trump to behave the way he is.  In his mind it gives a cover for his actions - an excuse to appease the Saudi regime.

[Yorkykopite]

We should be disgusted that our country is allied to such a regime, but what puzzles me is why this Khashoggi case has become headline news when all these things you mention have mostly been buried. Why now?

Because we have a free press and because there are enough people in the UK and other democratic countries who care about this fucking thing.

Talking of which I had to laugh at the tart who who said, maybe on the previous page even, that the Mainstream media in the West wasn’t interested in this case because - presumably - all we care about is oil.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Steven Mnuchin
@stevenmnuchin1

"Just met with @realDonaldTrump and @SecPompeo and we have decided, I will not be participating in the Future Investment Initiative summit in Saudi Arabia."

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

"Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has heard an alleged audio recording of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi's murder inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, according to a senior Turkish official."

"Speaking exclusively and on condition of anonymity to ABC News, the official claimed the recording was played in meetings in Turkey on Wednesday, and that Pompeo was given a transcript of the recordings."

"Separately, ABC News has also learned that Turkish officials believe that Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi consulate following a struggle that lasted eight minutes and that they believe he died of strangulation."


https://abcnews.go.com/International/pompeo-listened-alleged-recording-murder-jamal-khashoggi-source/story?id=58595725

[thejbs]

We should be disgusted that our country is allied to such a regime, but what puzzles me is why this Khashoggi case has become headline news when all these things you mention have mostly been buried. Why now?

Headline news when a news reporter based in a western country (and writing in English) is tortured, murdered and dismembered in an embassy, probably on the orders of the crown prince of SA, while picking up his marriage papers.  What specifically are you puzzled about?

[CraigDS]

"Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has heard

snip

He's denied he has heard anything - "This is wrong to do to the fiancée of Khashoggi," he added. "This is a very serious matter that we're working diligently on, and so to put out headlines that are factually false does no one any good."

[oldfordie]

Andrew Adonis
‏Verified account @Andrew_Adonis
14h14 hours ago

- Me to senior diplomat: ‘this Saudi thing is terrible’
- ‘O they do it all the time’
- ‘What, murder, hit squads?’
- ‘Of course, & the Russians & the Chinese, & the Turks actually; Erdogan only publicised this one as a power play on Trump’
- ‘Good God’
- ‘Andrew, you are naive’

[Nobby Reserve]

Headline news when a news reporter based in a western country (and writing in English) is tortured, murdered and dismembered in an embassy, probably on the orders of the crown prince of SA, while picking up his marriage papers.  What specifically are you puzzled about?

I don't think anyone is saying the murder of Khasoggi shouldn't be headline news, just questioning why a media that has largely buried (or at best not headlined) news about other murders committed by the Saudi shitstains - like several thousand children & women in Yemen.

[Ray K]

I don't think anyone is saying the murder of Khasoggi shouldn't be headline news, just questioning why a media that has largely buried (or at best not headlined) news about other murders committed by the Saudi shitstains - like several thousand children & women in Yemen.

It's Stalin's dictum: The death of one person is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.

MBS must be incredibly stupid if he didn't think there would be significant blowback from murdering a US-based journalist in the grounds of an embassy in another country.  Not to be blase about it, but couldn't a car accident be staged to achieve the same ends?

Unless the dismemberment was meant to send a message to other critics of the regime.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

It's Stalin's dictum: The death of one person is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.

MBS must be incredibly stupid if he didn't think there would be significant blowback from murdering a US-based journalist in the grounds of an embassy in another country.  Not to be blase about it, but couldn't a car accident be staged to achieve the same ends?

Unless the dismemberment was meant to send a message to other critics of the regime.

He's dumb. He's dumb because he doesn't put the work to improve on an issue, just a lot of vocal cord noise that no one dares respond to; he's detached from reality but that is a very common trait among those who've had the upbringing he's had. Clearly there are character defects as well. The wider problem is the quality of the heirs dynasties create.

I met the guy years back a couple of times, but more importantly in terms of getting a read we worked over a period of months with a group that answered directly to him, I saw the quality of the guys he picked, their work, I saw his decisions...delusional garbage. We've had dealings over a period of years with their circle (thankfully not so much these days), the only reason any company deals with them is for money. We're all seeing his 'planning' and execution of a murder, imagine how easy these guys are to make money off.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Gave all of the Turkish working in the consulate two days holiday.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wpNh3LBwt0Y" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wpNh3LBwt0Y</a>

[BarryCrocker]

No shit Sherlock.

Scapegoat found, Davos in the Desert to be back on, weapons sales to resume.


Jamal Khashoggi is dead, Saudi Arabian state television confirms

> Fight broke out between Khashoggi and those who met him consulate, announcement said
> Gen Ahmed al-Asiri is sacked from intelligence position

Saudi Arabia has said the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who disappeared after visiting the country’s consulate in Istanbul on 2 October, is dead.

The news, which cited preliminary findings from an official investigation, was announced on state television on Friday. It said a fight broke out between Khashoggi and people who met him in the consulate, leading to the death of the reporter.

Khashoggi was a US permanent resident who wrote for the Washington Post.

It was also announced that Gen Ahmed al-Asiri, an intelligence official linked to the case, had been dismissed. Eighteen Saudi nationals were said to have been arrested.

More details soon …

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/19/jamal-khashoggi-dead-saudi-arabian-state-television-confirms

[rafathegaffa83]

A fistfight? Sure

[planet-terror]

Tasty

sent from my r2d2 mk iv

[BarryCrocker]

A fistfight? Sure

With someone who's studied forensic medicine holding a bone saw.

[Caligula?]

With someone who's studied forensic medicine holding a bone saw.

People get into fistfights whilst carrying bone saws all the time

[soxfan]

I don't know why you people aren't believing the Saudis. Why just last week I saw an out-of-shape 60 year-old man start a fight with 18 young fit security agents in my market. And yes one of them coincidentally had a bone saw. One minute the older man was in the fruit aisle, and then he was gone. Haven't seen him at the market since. He probably started shopping at another market.

Happens all the time. No worries.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Ali Shihabi
@aliShihabi

"IMPORTANT: I understand from a senior Saudi source that Jamal Khashoggi died from a chokehold during a physical altercation, not a fist fight which was mistranslated by foreign media."

"This is not saying "rogue killers" but implicating virtually the whole top leadership of foreign intelligence. They carried out a mission that went sour very quickly and tried to cover it up initially. Bad news travels slowly to the top."

"The removal of two top officials, a cabinet ranking, very powerful and close advisor of MBS and the Deputy Head of Foreign intelligence + 4 other Generals in foreign intelligence (virtually its whole top leadership) cannot be written off as a cover up. This is unprecedented."

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Couldn’t they have just done the heart attack excuse?

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Still begs the question why the brought an autopsy expert who brought equipment.

[CHOPPER]

I think we should stop hanging round with them

[CraigDS]

Couldn’t they have just done the heart attack excuse?

You don't tend to dismember and hide the body of someone who dies of natural causes though