Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1066193 times)

Offline Zeb

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #80 on: January 7, 2018, 09:08:54 pm »
Keita is an 8. He has all the skills of Gundogan, Modric, etc. And it makes even more sense with recent reports that, after selling Coutinho, Klopp wants Keita early, as that's the natural replacement in this template.

Questioning more the nature of the '6' in c.30 league matches every season. Think Pop and Jack discuss it a bit more obviously later on. And Dan A's point (as does rafa's) stands up on its own merits too. Just a different way of looking at things.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #81 on: January 7, 2018, 09:27:05 pm »
Very interesting OP and some belters of follow up posts. Thank you all for such a fascinating read and debate.

My personal prejudice is a desire for a top notch goalkeeper but I recognise that's just my lack of knowledge speaking and having grown up watching Ray in goal. I can understand that Jürgen may well be comfortable with our two choices, or at the very least, wants to see how they get on with a much improved defence in front of them till the end of the season.

I can very much embrace the argument that the number 6 is our next crucial step. The one thing not entirely addressed in the discussion so far - probably because its a few steps in the future really - is the depth for each position. The CL final set up is a very good example for illustration, but a league campaign is longer, even more so in the Premier League with the insane Christmas period. How does the CL set up in the OP reflect Jürgen's successful league winning teams (in starters and depth)?
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Offline aw1991

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #82 on: January 7, 2018, 11:59:25 pm »
A quick question, in your (or anybody else) opinion, how does TAA fits here? As a right back, I feel like he wouldn't quite fits the defensive fullback mould of Schmelzer and Gomez. You could flip the formation and play Gomez on the left like against Burnley, that will mean that next season we could play Gomez/Robbo on the left and TAA/Clyne on the right, while Moreno will be sold. Or maybe his future lies in midfield like some suggest? If he could pull a Lahm-like transition into the #6 I would be definitely on board but I doubt it for the moment.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #83 on: January 8, 2018, 12:38:48 am »
A quick question, in your (or anybody else) opinion, how does TAA fits here? As a right back, I feel like he wouldn't quite fits the defensive fullback mould of Schmelzer and Gomez. You could flip the formation and play Gomez on the left like against Burnley, that will mean that next season we could play Gomez/Robbo on the left and TAA/Clyne on the right, while Moreno will be sold. Or maybe his future lies in midfield like some suggest? If he could pull a Lahm-like transition into the #6 I would be definitely on board but I doubt it for the moment.

Gomez isn't a left back, and why on Earth would we sell Moreno? He's had one poor showing this season that wasn't even a poor showing, just a crazy 10 minutes. He was our most consistent and best defender for the first third of the season. Klopp isn't going to sell him after working with him and finally getting the penny to drop. Robertson has had some good, bad and a couple of brilliant games for us, the competition between them will be good to watch but Robertson hasn't made the left back slot his own, he hasn't been flawless by any means.

I think TAA's future lies further forward in midfield. I've had this discussion/argument before about him being 'wasted' at right back and I think he could be a phenomenal player in 4 or 5 years time in the midfield. Pace, good control, an eye for goal, great energy and a wonderful crosser/passer of the ball. How and what that final role will be I dont know, but I definitely see him as having all the attritbues to play in a Klopp midfield.


Offline paddysour

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #84 on: January 8, 2018, 12:56:52 am »
I'm not sure I agree with that CL final game being the template Klopp team. Mario Gotze was only left out as he had agreed a deal with their opponents on the night. If you look at the semi final against Madrid, Gotze started that in place of Grossgruetz who was only ever a utility man for Klopp, often being deployed at fullback.

Gotze was the "10" and Reus played from the left, before Gotze came along Kagawa played the 10. That's more the template, with a wide forward rather than a defensive winger. And that would make more sense when you look at our squad and see Mane and Salah.

I also question whether the Dortmund team were ever truely a 4231. I think we were all shocked when Klopp set us out with a 3 in midfield. However look at this quote from Klopp about Kagawa. Kagawa was the original "10" before Gotze replaced him after his Man Utd move.


Klopp told the Guardian: 'Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing!

'My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes.

'Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw.


I think while it may have seemed Dortmund were a 4231, they were actually a 433 with one if the 3 CMs being pushed a bit closed to the goal.

Lallana is that player in our squad in my opinion. It's no secret Klopp loves him and calls him the trigger. Lallana is the Gotze/Kagawa "10". Coutinho was the dribbling CM like Gundogan. With Mane being the Reus.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #85 on: January 8, 2018, 01:49:09 am »
Reading the OP makes me even more disappointed that we never got to see peak Lucas under Klopp. Those zipped passes he used to play into Gerrard and Torres were just what Klopp is after I think and he had a great mixture of being energetic, positionally smart and a great tackler.

One positive is that I'm not sure the type of no.6 that Klopp likes is especially expensive, it'll be interesting to see what changes are made in that role though, given that Henderson is captain but rarely fit and in top form.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #86 on: January 8, 2018, 02:35:13 am »
Good point about Lucas, he had that skill set a 6 needs in this system, not so much a physical skill set but rather the brain that could read a game, foul at the right times, make the right passes at the right time. It’s something I don’t think Henderson has. Hendo is tidy and fit as fuck but he just lacks that natural game smarts that I think is lacking in English players, the kind that is almost innate in Italians and Argentinians.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #87 on: January 8, 2018, 02:43:33 am »
I'm not sure I agree with that CL final game being the template Klopp team. Mario Gotze was only left out as he had agreed a deal with their opponents on the night. If you look at the semi final against Madrid, Gotze started that in place of Grossgruetz who was only ever a utility man for Klopp, often being deployed at fullback.

Just to be clear - I didn't say THAT specific line-up was the template. I said I would use that line-up for brevity, because reaching a Champions League final is a pinnacle moment in any team's current era. The post was long enough without me adding more detail about the various line-ups that Klopp used :D I used that line-up to show the roles that the players performed.

Quote
Gotze was the "10" and Reus played from the left, before Gotze came along Kagawa played the 10. That's more the template, with a wide forward rather than a defensive winger. And that would make more sense when you look at our squad and see Mane and Salah.

Mane tracks back more for us than Salah does, though - you can see that almost every game that Salah and Mane play together, especially in the average positions graphs. Salah stays forward, Mane drops back (although that's obviously not 100% set in stone). Grosskreutz in that final did the same thing, almost sitting on top of Schmelzer, most likely to counter Robben on that side. In the first leg semi final against Madrid, they did it on the opposite side to counter Ronaldo - Blaszczykowski sat back and Reus pushed on. But the names aren't really important - it's more about the roles that get performed. You can see from his Mainz team, Dortmund, and now Liverpool that there are certain tasks that are common to all of them. It's the same for any manager - the formations might change, but there are things they all want to see in the game from every team they coach, be it the long ball from an Allardyce team, or the possession domination of Guardiola. Looking at those traits, I think, gives us a good indication of where Klopp wants to take us.

Quote
I also question whether the Dortmund team were ever truely a 4231. I think we were all shocked when Klopp set us out with a 3 in midfield. However look at this quote from Klopp about Kagawa. Kagawa was the original "10" before Gotze replaced him after his Man Utd move.

Klopp told the Guardian: 'Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing!

'My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes.

'Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw.


I think while it may have seemed Dortmund were a 4231, they were actually a 433 with one if the 3 CMs being pushed a bit closed to the goal.

Lallana is that player in our squad in my opinion. It's no secret Klopp loves him and calls him the trigger. Lallana is the Gotze/Kagawa "10". Coutinho was the dribbling CM like Gundogan. With Mane being the Reus.

No formation is ever truly what we write on paper, except in defence, which is why I focused more on the roles they played. The average positions of games show Gundogan being much closer to Bender than he was to Reus/Gotze. In fact, he was the deepest defender. So while the actual player might change, it's clear that Klopp wants someone sitting at the back of the midfield, someone running, and someone up near the striker for support and breaking the line, and breaking the lines. Those roles can be fulfilled whether the formation is 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 3-4-1-2, or anything else. Formations are neutral ;D That's why I wanted to not get bogged down on the names, because the names make people get too specific about what is being talked about - and we're not really comparing players, we're only comparing their tasks in the system.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #88 on: January 8, 2018, 03:47:50 am »
Where do you think Ox fits on this template, PoP? Kuba role?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #89 on: January 8, 2018, 03:52:32 am »
Where do you think Ox fits on this template, PoP? Kuba role?

He has the attributes for the defensive winger role, and the #8 runner, I think - but we haven't seen a lot of what he can do yet in the middle. But he's definitely not a #10, #9 or #6. So much like Reus and Gotze, I think - he can probably do a serviceable job at least in both positions, but which one is his strongest I don't think we've seen yet.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #90 on: January 8, 2018, 05:13:38 am »
He has the attributes for the defensive winger role, and the #8 runner, I think - but we haven't seen a lot of what he can do yet in the middle. But he's definitely not a #10, #9 or #6. So much like Reus and Gotze, I think - he can probably do a serviceable job at least in both positions, but which one is his strongest I don't think we've seen yet.

I never really thought of Oxlade as an option bought to play as a defensive winger? That's interesting and makes the signing of Oxlade a lot clearer to me than it was initially as I couldn't justify his goal return to compete with the likes of Firmino, Mane, Salah or Coutinho in an attacking role and he clearly wasn't keen on playing as a wing back. But if Klopp wanted a Kuba/Grosskreutz type defensive winger then Oxlade certainly fits the bill. He's also shown an ability as a no.8 and again I'd agree he's not a no.10 because he lacks the goal return.

But I still see Lallana as the ideal no.10 for Klopp in a 4-3-3 and think he's the man that will take Coutinho's spot centrally for the rest of the season regardless of who we sign.
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Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #91 on: January 8, 2018, 05:20:52 am »
I believe Ox would continue to be played as a utility man for the rest of the season, filling in on the wings or in midfield when the starters need to be rotated. That means he isn't really a squad option but will be a regular starter. It is to be seen how he enforces himself more in the midfield role for next season, as he has all the attributes for it, including a nice through ball, a good cross, can carry the ball between the lines and shoot well. Needs a bit more bite to his play as I've seen him be half a second late to the second ball at times this season, mostly in the second half of games (which we could attribute to not being up to speed yet with the pressing game). Keita-Ox as the alternating 8s with a #6 behind him looks tasty on paper.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #92 on: January 8, 2018, 05:49:33 am »
Haven't posted in a long time but when I see a good post that I like, I approve.  This is a great read and I totally agree with your points.

I also would like to point out that Lallana, although not in the same class, is good enough to slot into the Coutinho vacancy even if we don't get any replacements this January.  He's a good playmaker, skillful and aware.  Probably the best England player at the moment. 

I'm really liking what I'm seeing from the Ox lately.
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Offline alvaro

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #93 on: January 8, 2018, 06:01:36 am »
Why would Klopp not care about the goalkeeper situation ? The only explanation I can come up with is that he thinks only the very top elite of goalies would improve us significantly and he rather strengthen other positions.

Also , and I may be deviating here, I think that an integral part of the Klopp system is not only the tactical part but how Klopp  leads the players from an emotional perspective. If the footballing system requieres a lot of devotion to doing the basics perfectly then that requires a disciplined squad which is why Klopp never gave a Sahko a second chance and why Coutinho was not kept against his will.


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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #94 on: January 8, 2018, 07:38:28 am »
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but isn't Lallana pretty much a direct replacement for Coutinho in that playmaking/creative role? Its his favoured position anyway, which is where he excelled before transferring to Liverpool. 

About the midfield conundrum, is it necessary to have two midfielders with defined roles? What about playing a double pivot with both midfielders playing box to box and sitting back alternatively? One goes forward, the other stays behind, based on the situation. Both Henderson and Keita are comfortable in a box to box role and theoretically should be able to function well as a pairing.

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Offline slimbo

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #95 on: January 8, 2018, 08:07:16 am »
I wouldn't mind seeing Gini given a run at #6 in some games. Think he has the qualities if given clear guidlelines for the role. He's athletic and reads the game well and from #6 he can play with pretty much everything in front of him. Could be a revelation there.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #96 on: January 8, 2018, 08:14:47 am »
I just can't do any comparisons with Keita and Lemar, and his Dortmund side. Not sure if Keita or Lemar is Gundogan.


 
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Offline Paul1611

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #97 on: January 8, 2018, 09:25:49 am »
What a great thought provoking and intelligent thread.  Kudos to PoP and Poetry in motion for the main pieces.  Certainly gives us an idea of what we might have to look forward to with Klopp at the helm.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #98 on: January 8, 2018, 09:44:04 am »
Ndidi would.


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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #99 on: January 8, 2018, 09:56:47 am »
Never knew Ndidi was 21.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #100 on: January 8, 2018, 10:08:03 am »
Good point about Lucas, he had that skill set a 6 needs in this system, not so much a physical skill set but rather the brain that could read a game, foul at the right times, make the right passes at the right time. It’s something I don’t think Henderson has. Hendo is tidy and fit as fuck but he just lacks that natural game smarts that I think is lacking in English players, the kind that is almost innate in Italians and Argentinians.

Lucas before his knee injury would have been the first name on the team sheet for Brazil. Klopp would have taken him to a new level. He was exactly what Klopp wants in his no.6

Henderson just doesn't have the ability to read the game like Lucas did.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #101 on: January 8, 2018, 10:27:31 am »
Brilliant thread.
Thanks PoP, but thanks also to poetry in motion - I'd missed that excellent post.

It's a real pleasure to read stuff of this quality on here. It really shows up what passes for punditry and journalism these days.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #102 on: January 8, 2018, 10:33:06 am »
Excellent OP.

Sorry only been able to skim through the rest of the thread but my immediate thoughts were that PoP has explained well how Klopp wants his team to set up and what he probably considered the most successful version of the team he wants to create (that Dortmund side that reached the CL final).

But what has being in the PL changed?

The graphic of our team and the potential missing positions was interesting to see...but I wonder if Klopp and his team have anything else in mind now that they have experienced this league for a few years. Anything that they can adapt or will they keep to script

I always thought he would start to build what he knows and then adapt it to what he learns given time and resource. It's important to not lose any(more) key players and to do that we have to keep the "buy-in" and win things.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #103 on: January 8, 2018, 10:50:38 am »
Why would Klopp not care about the goalkeeper situation ? The only explanation I can come up with is that he thinks only the very top elite of goalies would improve us significantly and he rather strengthen other positions.

Or he believes that Karius will develop into that keeper if he is trained and introduced to the league under the radar, as it were, so not every bad game is torn apart in the media.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #104 on: January 8, 2018, 12:17:30 pm »
Why would Klopp not care about the goalkeeper situation ? The only explanation I can come up with is that he thinks only the very top elite of goalies would improve us significantly and he rather strengthen other positions.

Also , and I may be deviating here, I think that an integral part of the Klopp system is not only the tactical part but how Klopp  leads the players from an emotional perspective. If the footballing system requieres a lot of devotion to doing the basics perfectly then that requires a disciplined squad which is why Klopp never gave a Sahko a second chance and why Coutinho was not kept against his will.



Maybe because Klopp sees his team as a 10 piece puzzle plus a keeper. For his system to function he needs players to perform specific roles but also the players need to compliment each other so that the system works.

So for me he is likely to expend his energy and his budget concentrating on the 10 piece puzzle. At Dortmund he continually lost key players so the puzzle was always in a state of flux.

Hopefully here he can keep his key players which will allow him to get around to addressing the keeper issue.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #105 on: January 8, 2018, 12:21:22 pm »
Why would Klopp not care about the goalkeeper situation ? The only explanation I can come up with is that he thinks only the very top elite of goalies would improve us significantly and he rather strengthen other positions.

Also , and I may be deviating here, I think that an integral part of the Klopp system is not only the tactical part but how Klopp  leads the players from an emotional perspective. If the footballing system requieres a lot of devotion to doing the basics perfectly then that requires a disciplined squad which is why Klopp never gave a Sahko a second chance and why Coutinho was not kept against his will.

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I'm sure he cares about the goalie situation though, Weidenfeller may not have been elite, but Klopp certainly considered him one of the best in Germany and mentiined more than once than he couldn't understand why he wasn't in the German set-up. He was one of his leaders. Although there was also suggestions later in his career that he was actually too hard on his defenders sometimes which had an adeverse affect at times, such was his propensity for outbusts and anger! 

But maybe the manager just has different ideas of what is the right goalie for his teams.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #106 on: January 8, 2018, 02:46:02 pm »
Or he believes that Karius will develop into that keeper if he is trained and introduced to the league under the radar, as it were, so not every bad game is torn apart in the media.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #107 on: January 9, 2018, 04:21:37 am »
Lucas before his knee injury would have been the first name on the team sheet for Brazil. Klopp would have taken him to a new level. He was exactly what Klopp wants in his no.6

Henderson just doesn't have the ability to read the game like Lucas did.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #109 on: January 9, 2018, 10:59:15 am »
Interesting OP and thread, cheers.

So from next season, it is more likely that we'll play a 4-2-3-1? We have quite a few times already, but I think we look to be at our best with 4-3-3 and it suits most of our players. I guess it will depend on who we buy in the summer though, and it's not a huge difference between the two formations of course.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #110 on: January 9, 2018, 11:20:49 am »
So we're potentially willing to pay up to £90m for a defensive winger?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #111 on: January 9, 2018, 12:09:16 pm »
I never really thought of Oxlade as an option bought to play as a defensive winger? That's interesting and makes the signing of Oxlade a lot clearer to me than it was initially as I couldn't justify his goal return to compete with the likes of Firmino, Mane, Salah or Coutinho in an attacking role and he clearly wasn't keen on playing as a wing back. But if Klopp wanted a Kuba/Grosskreutz type defensive winger then Oxlade certainly fits the bill.

He's already played that role for us a few times this season, most notably at West Ham and Stoke. I posted this after the match against the former:

He was clearly instructed to stay as high and wide as possible in order to stretch them and create space for Salah inside. The amount of longer balls we hit over the top for Oxlade to run onto highlights this.

It was a mature, selfless performance. Right midfield is without question his best position and I hope it's largely where we'll see him play. His pace, energy and work-rate stretches sides while giving us the illusion of playing with three midfielders and four attackers at the same time and that's principally why he was signed.
« Last Edit: January 9, 2018, 12:11:21 pm by LallanaInPyjamas »

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #112 on: January 9, 2018, 12:18:16 pm »
Good to get back to some serious in-depth discussion (even if I don't agree entirely :)).

Mane tracks back more for us than Salah does, though - you can see that almost every game that Salah and Mane play together, especially in the average positions graphs. Salah stays forward, Mane drops back (although that's obviously not 100% set in stone)... But the names aren't really important - it's more about the roles that get performed. You can see from his Mainz team, Dortmund, and now Liverpool that there are certain tasks that are common to all of them. It's the same for any manager - the formations might change, but there are things they all want to see in the game from every team they coach, be it the long ball from an Allardyce team, or the possession domination of Guardiola. Looking at those traits, I think, gives us a good indication of where Klopp wants to take us.

I think the perception of Mane & Salah's contributions is very situational; if you'd written this a couple of months earlier, it would probably acknowledge that (at that time), Salah's tracking back seemed to be more conscientious than Mane's. Whether we have Gomez or TAA at right back, Moreno or Robertson on the left, is Milner playing on the left of the midfield three, who are the opposition, what's the game situation, who is in better form and has the freshest legs - all of these impact the (apparent) relative responsibilities of Mane and Salah, I think. Which means I consider them as playing essentially the same role (mirrored), notwithstanding those differences game to game (and there are other changes generally around the hour mark, as we start to shuffle the front three with substitutions and 'pre-substitution' changes).

This I think becomes relevant because - although you talk (rightly) about the system being about more than the formation, the post and subsequent discussion then tends to get drawn back to the formation and how our players fit it, or might fit it. In Klopp's case, I'm not sure that it is clear that that Dortmund side (or any of his Dortmund sides) were his defining moment; that moment has perhaps not yet arrived.

No formation is ever truly what we write on paper, except in defence, which is why I focused more on the roles they played. The average positions of games show Gundogan being much closer to Bender than he was to Reus/Gotze. In fact, he was the deepest defender. So while the actual player might change, it's clear that Klopp wants someone sitting at the back of the midfield, someone running, and someone up near the striker for support and breaking the line, and breaking the lines. Those roles can be fulfilled whether the formation is 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 3-4-1-2, or anything else. Formations are neutral ;D That's why I wanted to not get bogged down on the names, because the names make people get too specific about what is being talked about - and we're not really comparing players, we're only comparing their tasks in the system.

We press, we counter press, we attack at pace or we happily (if not always comfortably) retain the ball for a time to probe, to manage the game, to recover. Fine.

I don't think it's so clear cut, however, that there's any sign of progression (other than the odd appearance that doesn't seem to demonstrate an emerging pattern) to the typical referenced Dortmund shape. In response to a couple of replies in the thread, I don't think there's any sign that Coutinho was a primary reason for the 433 rather than 4231/4411, or that his departure may hasten a return to 4231/4411, either. Not least, a couple of roles in the 4231/4411 could be said to have been better suited to him than those he often took up in the 433.

Managing in England may have triggered some changes in Klopp's approach - interestingly, of our long and illustrious list of managers each with their defining style and defining moments, most had experience only of managing in England; three of the most successful only/primarily/firstly at Liverpool itself. But then reviewing some old ZonalMarking reports on Dortmund games indicate a willingness to explore the possibilities of a 433, too - his last visit to Bayern as Dortmund manager (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2015/05/01/bayern-1-1-dortmund-klopp-floods-the-centre-to-harm-bayerns-build-up/) looks particularly familiar to anyone watching us over the last couple of years. Was the familiar Dortmund shape Klopp's defining shape, or one constrained by the players he had available but has always had half an eye on evolving away from?

The shape we're using - effectively, the number 9 we're using - gives us a 4231/4411 451 shape defensively, but can give us a variety of attacking shapes; essentially, something like a 442 diamond but with the flexibility for any of the front three to take up any role within any particular attacking phase. Firmino can be the point of the diamond, but he's just about quick enough and slick enough to act as 'striker' in one move, or beat a fullback and pull the ball back for a teammate in the next. Mane and Salah (lately, particularly Salah) excel at the transition from their wide 'defensive' shape into an attacking 'two', running at or through the gap between CB and FB; yet both also have enough skill on the ball and in their passing play to play pass and move, one twos and through balls around the box in less frenetic moments.

Thus I don't expect Firmino necessarily to line up as the '10', and Salah as the '9', other than in specific passages of play. The pursuit of Lemar I suspect is not that he's suddenly needed as a critical starter with Mane/Salah now otherwise occupied, as to ensure we still have the depth in attacking areas to be able (if not compelled) to rest one of them in any particular game.

What this does mean, is that while Keita's arrival in the summer occupies the '8', in my view we have two '8's to fill, with the '10' function being the secondary responsibility of both 8's and each of the front three - particularly, but not solely, Firmino - at different moments. For those 8's (or one of them, when we have Keita) when we need guile, Lallana is an obvious candidate. For pace, power and attacking threat, Chamberlain seems to be emerging as a more trusted option perhaps than Can, Wijnaldum or Milner. It does seem to be an area that could stand another player to compete for a place, though - particularly perhaps a left footer or one (like Chamberlain) who can double up as cover for Mane/Salah or even Firmino. I've not seen enough of Lemar (or Goretzka, or anyone else we're occasionally linked with) to say whether he's seen as that sort of player. But of course, neither was Wijnaldum until we bought him.

It doesn't appear that we're impatient to solve the '6' in this window, thus happy with Henderson and Can as our options there for now - but it's an obvious next stop for attention. I tend to agree that Klopp may not be overly concerned by the keeper, perhaps still having faith in Karius making the step up after being given a more gradual acclimitisation period this season than last.


« Last Edit: January 9, 2018, 12:54:41 pm by redmark »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #113 on: January 9, 2018, 12:39:00 pm »
Excellent post Redmark, you put into words many of the thoughts I had while reading the thread, only much better than I ever could.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #114 on: January 9, 2018, 01:11:55 pm »
I wouldn't mind seeing Gini given a run at #6 in some games. Think he has the qualities if given clear guidlelines for the role. He's athletic and reads the game well and from #6 he can play with pretty much everything in front of him. Could be a revelation there.

I've been saying this for a while now. Gini is such a clever player he could probably play anywhere on the pitch and do a job, such is his footballing brain. He most certainly has the physique to be a destroyer and his techincal ability is hardly lacking.

My only concern for him in that role would be his lack of tenacity/nastiness and him not really realising how good he actually is. If he had a small percentage of Mascherano's spite and arrogance I think he'd be top class in that role. 
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #115 on: January 9, 2018, 01:14:06 pm »
I've been saying this for a while now. Gini is such a clever player he could probably play anywhere on the pitch and do a job, such is his footballing brain. He most certainly has the physique to be a destroyer and his techincal ability is hardly lacking.

My only concern for him in that role would be his lack of tenacity/nastiness and him not really realising how good he actually is. If he had a small percentage of Mascherano's spite and arrogance I think he'd be top class in that role.

Agreed, also been saying this for a while. Think he'd be much better than Can and Henderson at moving into space and offering a pass out of the defence and then turning on the ball too.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #116 on: January 9, 2018, 01:19:02 pm »
Agreed, also been saying this for a while. Think he'd be much better than Can and Henderson at moving into space and offering a pass out of the defence and then turning on the ball too.

With Can looking to be off and Hendo struggling for form/fitness, is it possible Klopp may use Gini in this role next season? He could then spend more of his budget elsewhere on Lemar and possibly bring in that elite level keeper?

It all depends on who is available in the summer I suppose. But I don't think Klopp will fret if he can't buy a top class 6 with Gini around.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #117 on: January 9, 2018, 01:31:54 pm »
But maybe the manager just has different ideas of what is the right goalie for his teams.
On this question I think there's another really important factor. We only ever see how players are on the pitch, we really don't now anything about what they're actually like in terms of training, in the dressing room, how they are with younger players etc etc.

The off-field stuff is so massively important to Klopp that I think he'd rather make tactical compromises to include a 'shining example' rather than include a player who's the perfect tactical fit who's attitude, in some way, isn't right. I mean look at Sakho - it's very clear he had the right stuff on the pitch, but there was absolutely no redemption possible once he'd hit his 3rd strike, so to speak. It's possible that's also what happened with Coutinho - like obviously the player wanted out but maybe we could have kept him if Klopp really wanted him here for the next six months.

Certainly I think this applies to players like Weidenfeller, Milner and perhaps Henderson and Gini - players who may not seem to epitomise what Klopp wants or needs in terms of skills and tactical fit, but who perhaps do epitomise exactly what he wants in terms of their discipline, the example they set, how they approach training, how they interact with others in the squad and how they interpret the instructions they're given.

It's obvious that he doesn't want a team of slavish automatons, but it's equally clear that he is ruthless with players who don't fit in off the pitch, even if they might offer a lot on it.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #118 on: January 9, 2018, 01:34:55 pm »
IMO Wijnaldum's season has turned around since being utilised in a double pivot alongside Can. With the exception of West Brom at home - when a bit more creativity was probably required and it was just an all-round bad day at the office - they've looked very good together when Klopp has used that partnership & system.

As the 'six' in a 4-3-3, though, I think first and foremost he'd lack the height to play there long-term. I also don't know that he's great at turning on the ball in deeper areas, let alone showing for it in the first place. Shielding it when he does receive it, though? He's the best in our squad, no question, and no attacker is out-strengthening him once he has them within reach.

But I think he's best alongside a more domineering character in a double pivot. Him & Keita next season would be interesting, but I do think we'll need another option in the squad to replace Can's height.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #119 on: January 9, 2018, 01:55:18 pm »
Excellent opening post and some other  interesting takes in here  as  well. After all the wasted energy of the last few difficult weeks regarding our ex Brazilian genius I think it's great that there are a number of quality British players playing for us regularly and part of the Boss's long term-plans. It's never been more important for long term stability for our scouts to find us the next King Kenny or Ray Clemence locally/nationally rather than in Copocabana or Montevideo. Players who understand our history and who feel they  can fulfil their aims here and not see us  just as  a stepping  stone for their career. By the way, this isn't Johnny Englishman talking Just being realistic.Hope this is a relevant post for  the threat.