Author Topic: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool  (Read 40957 times)

Offline Melbred

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #200 on: March 20, 2014, 05:31:21 am »
I'm usually pessimistic and would tend to err on the side of caution, but to attribute our position this season down to luck (essentially what Vulmea has said) and to other teams simply being shite is just daft. We are where we are because we deserve to be, and because we've played some of the best football we have for years (decades even!). Sure, we've lost the odd game that we should have won, but what team hasn't?

I'm of the opinion that we've pretty much already achieved our goals for the season, and anything we get from here on in will be a bonus. It won't mean that I won't be a nervous wreck for the next 9 games, because I will be, but it's so refreshing to feel nervous for all the right reasons for once.

It's been a fantastic season, regardless of what happens from here on out.

Offline McrRed

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #201 on: March 20, 2014, 05:37:42 am »
It's hard to say what our greatest achievement is this season, but given how many corners we've turned, how many false dawns, how whipped we felt. Making most of us believe again? Now that's some achievement!

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #202 on: March 20, 2014, 06:34:46 am »
There's been other very good coaches that haven't managed that though PoP. (Uh-oh, hyperbole imminent)

I think this is worthy of a topic of it's own but i've got my theories on why Rodgers is so successful. My opinion is that it comes down to brilliant planing and a dedication to his own personal development over a very long period of time. I suspect some managers in the old boys network (eg: Tim Sherwood) fell into their current job and have tried to make it up as they go. I think that's something Rodgers would detests , I suspect has been doing his homework for decades and would look at guys like Tim Sherwood with very little sympathy. The idea that someone.... anybody can walk into a job he's painstakingly planned for and think they can succeed must surely piss him off.

All those years of sacrifice and planning I sure have an effect, sure he's likely tweaked them considerably but I don't think anything Rodgers has done on any level has been "winging it". And that's the difference between him and 90% of other managers. He's gone to greater efforts to educate himself, spent longer planning, worked harder developing himself and hand picked his staff. And spent decades doing it.

By the time he stepped into the Liverpool job, I think he had pretty much every detail mapped out. A well defined coaching blueprint ready to be put in place a Liverpool. He'd spent the best part of two decades self improving, slowly hand picked and developed a quality backroom staff, working relationships developed and tested in his previous jobs.


He's has had very little to figure out at Liverpool, just understanding the players and tweaking well formulated ideas based off of his decades of planning.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 06:36:21 am by DanA »
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #203 on: March 20, 2014, 08:02:56 am »
There's been other very good coaches that haven't managed that though PoP. (Uh-oh, hyperbole imminent)

Good Youth system helping him out,  a better squad left for him than some people believed, added to one or two astute signings, great team spirit implemented, decent mentoring by the backroom boys especially Peters and yes ultimately good coaching all of this brings about the situation now.

Its a bit like a recipe we have all the right ingredients and should end up with a great meal.
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Offline ScandinavianPete

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #204 on: March 20, 2014, 08:41:52 am »
He's has had very little to figure out at Liverpool, just understanding the players and tweaking well formulated ideas based off of his decades of planning.

Good post but decades might be stretching it. Takes a very dedicated teenager.

Offline Ray K

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #205 on: March 20, 2014, 09:08:14 am »
Good coaching

I'm beginning to think that the most logical explanation is that Brendan went to some remote Scottish isle last August to indulge some Christopher Lee-esque shenanigans involving a flammable wooden structure.

He might have used the mancs's version of Edward Woodward in that sacrifice too.


But sure, 'good coaching' will do for now if it keeps the authorities away.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #206 on: March 20, 2014, 09:08:27 am »
Good post but decades might be stretching it. Takes a very dedicated teenager.

Decades is correct - he says himself in this article from 2011 that he's been coaching for 18 years:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/273128/Brendan-Rodgers-learnt-the-hard-way
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:10:07 am by dnkw »

Offline redtel

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #207 on: March 20, 2014, 12:27:43 pm »
Decades is correct - he says himself in this article from 2011 that he's been coaching for 18 years:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/273128/Brendan-Rodgers-learnt-the-hard-way

This is worth noting.

I remember an interview G.Shreeves (I know!)  did with Brendan before the Xmas game at S.B. when he asked the usual loaded questions including "When you were working here 10 years ago did you ever imagine you would be standing in the opposite dug-out to your mentor Jose Mourinho?"

Brendan looked put-out and said quite forcibly "Well, I was certainly working towards this".

He has put the hours and miles into learning coaching over 18 years and is now reaping the benefits. I first saw him interviewed at Swansea in a tiny office he was using at their training ground I think. I was impressed with his candour and aims and he seemed confident in his ability to reach them.

We as fans are the benefactors, not to mention the players, and it's been a joy to watch us improve as time has gone by.
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Offline woof

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #208 on: March 20, 2014, 12:55:08 pm »
At the end of the first half of the season, we sat on top of the league. At that time, talk of title-chasing was definitely premature. There were some of course, who were illusions of grandeur. At that point in time, I thought finishing fourth was doable and certainly our goal this season. Then came the humbling times at Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea. The game at Etihad, I felt, we didn't deserve to lose. I'd have gladly taken fourth then.

Then came the transformation. We are now looking like the real deal. Some could point to the fact that it's because of the goal-scoring feats of SAS. But let's not forget how Man U won the league last season because RvP was firing goals. 

Offline dumaten

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #209 on: March 20, 2014, 04:11:18 pm »
Vulmea's contrarian arguments would have more weight if he'd said after Hull away "if Moses (?) had converted from inside the six yard box at 1-1 we probably would have won"; or after Southampton at home "if the ref had given the clear cut penalty on sturridge", for example. The mood after those games was how terrible we were. If he wanted to take the edge off the hyperbole to be consistent he'd have to do so when that hyperbole was overwhelmingly negative, as well as when he perceived the fans were overrating the good performances. Maybe he did do this, I haven't read his old posts.

I do agree with him that in some of our big victories the scoreline has flattered our performance, everton for example and probably southampton last week. Definitely not spurs away where we were brilliant and fully warranted 5-0, sunday was not quite that good as we didn't have that much penetration in attack partly due to our front 2 making mistakes at inopportune moments, and partly because we focused heavily on controlling the game, in a way that we haven't done recently. Recently we've looked to play the penetrating pass very early after winning the ball, on sunday with Man United's backline sitting very deep that wasn't really the suitable option so we were more patient with the way we tried to move the ball up the field, with the two "shuttling" midfielders very prominent in this. I think, unusually, Henderson had the most passes and touches of anyone on the pitch, and created the most chances.

Steve Graves mentioned this on twitter regarding Sterling's position: its very similar to what Moses was doing when we played 3-4-1-2 early in the season. A player who's naturally a ball-carrying wide forward playing behind the strikers.. The simplistic view of the number 10 position is that the player will be getting on the ball and threading through balls into the striker(s), however in practice its very hard to accomplish this as opposition managers are fully aware of this tactic and will often have two defensive mids there to shadow the No10, prevent him from turning and blocking passes through. Effectively that player gets marked out of the game and the predictable supply line forward is cut. To have a player like Sterling in there, who will get on the ball under pressure and carry it, pulling the DMs out of position, or pull wide to receive it to overload a flank makes it very hard for midfielders to protect the backline, and opened up space for Allen and Henderson to work in, and for Sturridge and Suarez to drop in to. Rodgers was criticised for using Moses in that position "why is he playing a winger as a number 10?" but now he's got a better player in there, with better awareness and ability to pick a pass you can see what Rodgers was trying to do.

Offline God's Left Peg

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #210 on: March 20, 2014, 04:11:50 pm »
But have you really ever seen anything like this, have you. The way we play football at the moment is different even to 09. It's a weird thing but you go into these games with your arse clenched and then come out with a 3 0 at OT feeling pleasantly surprised or you tear arsenal to shreds in 20 minutes, or destroy Tottenham and a promising managerial career at white heart lane. Or  go down at Chelsea and City having fucking gone after them, I mean really gone for a tear up.

I can't remember anything like this in the last 2 decades, it's noticeably different. I loved Rafa and genuinely admired GED, but they never got these kind of goals did they?

I'm of a certain age, and it's reminding me of the late 80's. And even if it's just a reminder and nothing happens from it, I'm still happy. I'm still thinking about Liverpool far too much at the end of March, and I love it.

I don't want to look on the realistic side, football is magical and more than a game when played correctly. This team is making it something more than it is. That will do for me. I feel like a 8 year old on European cup nights again at the minute, it's all a bit fuzzy a bit other worldly it's why I fell in love with the club. And I will keep hold of that for as long as I can, no cold bitter reality for me thank you very much not while the team are still pushing the happy pills.

So do us a favour, try and enjoy it, try and dream a bit. If it all goes to shit we can take from there, but not a moment sooner.

It is still on, Rodgers is shaping up nicely for his own big white toothed banner, and below it will be a cheesy line that will echo down through history taking on greater magnitude as year follows year.  You can pooh hoo it all you like, you can cling to realism if you want to in the knowledge that should he fail you can say "I told you so", but I'll take a life time of shattered dreams if I can be an 8 year old for just another 90 minutes.

Believe.

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Offline E2K

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #211 on: March 20, 2014, 04:13:20 pm »
The main word that comes to mind about Sunday’s win (well, apart from YESSSSSSSS!!) is ‘mentality’. I’m certainly not going to sit here and make the case that this Manchester United side is anything better than the 7th place it currently occupies in the Premier League table, and the ease with which Liverpool won 3-0 without ever coming out of the lower gears probably owed as much to their general poverty of thought, ambition and imagination as it did to the away side’s organisation, ability and tactical awareness on the day. Even so, they still had to be beaten, and history is littered with too many good (sometimes great) teams that didn’t do what they were supposed to at crucial times for me to simply dismiss it as nothing more than a standard three points. The run that Liverpool have been on since the Norwich game on the 4th of December has truly been spectacular (16 games, 12 wins, 51 goals), but it’s easy to forget now that it was immediately preceded by that ugly 1-3 loss at Hull. If a win on Sunday was only to be expected against a relatively poor Manchester United side, then what of that fixture at the KC Stadium at the start of December? The difference now is that Liverpool are typically winning these games, and often without having to overly stretch themselves. Even when they don’t play well, potential draws and losses are being turned into wins more often not.

In the three and a half months since that loss to Hull, we’ve seen plenty of evidence to suggest that the mental toughness which defines all successful teams has begun to permeate Brendan Rodgers and his players. There’s been comebacks (e.g. from 0-2 down against Villa; 0-1 and 1-2 against Fulham), winning goals in testing circumstances (e.g. lost a 2-0 lead at Stoke, won 5-3; Gerrard’s late penalty at Fulham; lost 2-0 and 3-2 leads against Swansea, won 4-3) and, perhaps most of all, an almost contemptuous disregard for trends and recent history. While his beleaguered opposite number on Sunday, David Moyes, has been stockpiling unwanted milestones all over the place during his reign at Old Trafford so far (e.g. first wins there in years for West Brom, Everton, Newcastle and Swansea), Rodgers has been amassing a much more impressive collection of landmarks at Anfield. The 5-0 at White Hart Lane in December, for example, flew in the face of a measly 5 wins out of 23 at Tottenham’s ground going back to 1992, including 6 straight losses; the 5-3 win over Stoke in January not only marked Liverpool’s first League win at the Brittania since Stoke’s promotion back in 2008, in one game his team more than doubled the amount of goals scored in 5 previous visits there; the Everton game marked the biggest margin of victory in a Merseyside Derby since 1982; Arsenal were unbeaten on their previous 5 visits to Anfield and had lost just 4 out of 15 there in all competitions stretching back to 2001 before the 5-1 demolition at the start of February; and we had lost on our 3 previous visits to St. Mary’s before the game earlier this month, with Southampton also having won at Anfield back in September for good measure.

Sunday’s win was another milestone along the way. Not for the first time this season, Liverpool conceived and executed a performance that was a throwback to another era, one where a quarter-century wait for the return of the League title to Anfield would have been simply unfathomable. And while it may not seem particularly striking when set alongside some of the attacking prowess we’ve seen demonstrated this season in games against the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham and Everton, and the result itself may not feel as significant as the one at St. Mary’s two weeks ago in a fixture where many of us expected a Liverpool slip-up, it nonetheless somehow feels like the most important one of the lot both as a standalone game and in the wider context of where Liverpool is going as a club. Regardless of the man sitting on the home bench or his club’s drastically diminished prowess this season, regardless of the compelling evidence provided by the first 28 games that Liverpool are simply a better team, this fixture still carries with it a natural sense of dread for many supporters. Some were even heard to say beforehand that they’d take a draw because this was Manchester United, the champions, at Old Trafford and they were sure to raise their game against Liverpool of all teams. It can be argued that maybe Moyes’ team simply isn’t capable of raising their game against anything but the kind of meek opposition offered by Olympiakos last night, but the truth is that they simply weren’t allowed to on Sunday. I had been feeling confident going in, all the more so when I saw United’s line-up, but with Sturridge firing a shot wide after just two minutes and Suárez forcing Fellaini to bring him down (twice) after five, it was clear that Liverpool were a few classes above their opponents. Hard tackles by Gerrard and Flanagan early-on only added to this sense, and by the time Flanno dropped the shoulder and sauntered past Mata midway through the first half, it was all becoming beautifully surreal.

It seems a long time ago now since Gérard Houllier said “we will beat them one day, I promise you that” about Manchester United after his team’s heart-breaking FA Cup defeat at Old Trafford in January 1999 (having led for 86 minutes after Michael Owen’s early header, he had just watched his team succumb to two late goals in two minutes right at the end). In real terms it’s been just over 15 years, but on Sunday it felt like several lifetimes ago. Houllier’s words in the aftermath of that gut-wrenching loss were an understandable attempt to lift his players, his supporters and his club by looking to better days in the future, but the subtext was a little bit harder to swallow. It suggested that our goals, at least for the time-being, could be distilled down into the prospect of single victories over our main rivals rather than trophies, the same trophies they were chasing at Old Trafford, the same ones that had once been the only true barometer of success at Anfield. This impression was only confirmed by the celebrations from the away side following victory at the same ground just under two years later, when Danny Murphy’s first-half free-kick made Houllier’s promise come true. It was as though a trophy had been won. Between Houllier’s final season and last Sunday’s game, a span of approximately 10 years, we played 11 games at Old Trafford, losing 10 and only winning 1, similar to our record there prior to that win in December 2000 when it had been 12 without a win in all competitions since a 2-1 win there in March 1990 (and leaving aside that famous 4-1 victory in March 2009, we only scored 6 in 10 visits during that span). And yet there were no celebrations out of the ordinary, no inkling that anyone thought any more of the result than Jordan Henderson did: “It was a big win but it was just another game for us really”.

That’s a mentality that you could take a jackhammer to and barely make the slightest scratch. Allied to the pace and ability further forward, the leadership offered by the captain (which simply oozed out of Old Trafford on Sunday) and the manager, and the sheer tactical flexibility which made Moyes’ 4-4-2 seem even more boring, limited and predictable than usual on Sunday, it makes Liverpool a hugely dangerous team.
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Offline Camarero25

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #212 on: March 20, 2014, 04:22:25 pm »
But have you really ever seen anything like this, have you. The way we play football at the moment is different even to 09. It's a weird thing but you go into these games with your arse clenched and then come out with a 3 0 at OT feeling pleasantly surprised or you tear arsenal to shreds in 20 minutes, or destroy Tottenham and a promising managerial career at white heart lane. Or  go down at Chelsea and City having fucking gone after them, I mean really gone for a tear up.

I can't remember anything like this in the last 2 decades, it's noticeably different. I loved Rafa and genuinely admired GED, but they never got these kind of goals did they?

I'm of a certain age, and it's reminding me of the late 80's. And even if it's just a reminder and nothing happens from it, I'm still happy. I'm still thinking about Liverpool far too much at the end of March, and I love it.

I don't want to look on the realistic side, football is magical and more than a game when played correctly. This team is making it something more than it is. That will do for me. I feel like a 8 year old on European cup nights again at the minute, it's all a bit fuzzy a bit other worldly it's why I fell in love with the club. And I will keep hold of that for as long as I can, no cold bitter reality for me thank you very much not while the team are still pushing the happy pills.

So do us a favour, try and enjoy it, try and dream a bit. If it all goes to shit we can take from there, but not a moment sooner.

It is still on, Rodgers is shaping up nicely for his own big white toothed banner, and below it will be a cheesy line that will echo down through history taking on greater magnitude as year follows year.  You can pooh hoo it all you like, you can cling to realism if you want to in the knowledge that should he fail you can say "I told you so", but I'll take a life time of shattered dreams if I can be an 8 year old for just another 90 minutes.

Believe.

Apologies for not adding to the discussion, but I'm just reading back through the thread and this is a great post.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #213 on: March 20, 2014, 04:24:54 pm »
We've scored 7 more than that Chelsea team had at this stage of the season too.

The simple fact is that no team in the "Premier League era" has scored more goals after 29 games than this Liverpool one. Only this City team can better it.

Soz if that fact is hyperbolic.

It's a side issue I know but they only went goal crazy towards the end of the season didn't they? They were obviously scoring at a healthy rate but late on they stuck something like 7 past Villa, 8 past Stoke and 7 past Wigan in their final 3 or 4 home games of the season.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #214 on: March 20, 2014, 04:25:45 pm »
You know that these are exciting, potentially earth-shattering times, when the premier writer on RAWK contributes weekly masterpieces, and not just occasional (in the temporal not the literary sense) superb articles.

E2K, you've always been my favourite writer on here. Thanks again, and I'm glad you're doing so often  :wave

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #215 on: March 20, 2014, 06:56:02 pm »
       
Brilliant bit of writing.

I like the references to moments past and how you tie them in or contrast them with the present. Although i could've done without a reminder of that FA cup defeat. Scarred for years after that one!

Offline rola

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2014, 07:06:30 pm »
Haven't posted in a long while but returned just get a full dose of Vulmea's curmudgeonly, cussed, contrarian commentary.  Kudos. 
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Offline John C

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #217 on: March 20, 2014, 08:26:37 pm »
It seems a long time ago now since Gérard Houllier said “we will beat them one day, I promise you that”
Great post as usual mate, and I remember those solemn words like it was yesterday - frighteningly.

Offline Hunts Cross

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2014, 08:44:02 pm »
Because the hair dryer has unplugged and we could be awarded three penalties at United, someone posted in the video thread a clip of the 1986 game against Coventry when Jan Molby scored the three penalties we were awarded in that game. In watching that clip, I saw echoes in the football we play now in the way that great side cut through teams. Are we a great team now? Of course not. But we have improved a lot and may have more in us. That clip showed me how far Brendan Rodgers has brought us, in a very short time.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #219 on: March 20, 2014, 08:51:33 pm »
Haven't posted in a long while but returned just get a full dose of Vulmea's curmudgeonly, cussed, contrarian commentary.  Kudos. 

Alliteratively done.

Offline Hunts Cross

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #220 on: March 20, 2014, 09:27:11 pm »
the hyperbole is in full flow I see

every little thing becomes another brick in building an idea that people want to believe in

a game and a half ago we were outplayed for 45 minutes by Southampton, they missed their chances, before that we stuffed up against Villa they battered us for 25 minutes .....

I appeciate its hard to keep your head when its looking so rosy <snip>

We're still level with Arsenal, behind Chelsea and City have those games in hand. We can win the title but we'll do it by taking one game at a time, not believing the hype, not getting carried away. Cardiff away will be hard, not on paper, but proper hard they aren't as good as us, but we may have to win the battle first before the quality will tell. We've failed to deliver before after good results, especially away from home. The next game is the biggest. Take 3 more points, thats all that matters, concentrate on what we can do. One more game, win that.

anyway enough of trying to be reasonable - miserable - contrary - bloody great win.


My thought on this post is not about your curmudgeonly attitude, it's that you actually think what we express here influences what happens in games. The players need to take it one game at a time, not us. The players must not get carried away, not us. Take 3 more points. Not us. We merely cheer them on. They hear our songs.

That small banner in 2005, Make Us Dream, that was remade and had an airing at Old Trafford is exactly what some of us want to do.  Dream. Dream of Champions League back at Anfield. Dream of taking on Europe's best. That is in our grasp. If others make mistakes and drop points (Chelsea last weekend losing at Villa, anyone?) who knows what might happen. Of course, Cardiff next week could be our Villa. I know that. I don't need anyone pointing it out. Meantime, let me dream.


Offline Juan Loco

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #221 on: March 20, 2014, 10:04:08 pm »
It's a side issue I know but they only went goal crazy towards the end of the season didn't they? They were obviously scoring at a healthy rate but late on they stuck something like 7 past Villa, 8 past Stoke and 7 past Wigan in their final 3 or 4 home games of the season.

Aye. They had 69 goals at this stage in the season. They scored 27 in 4 games against Pompey, Wigan, Stoke and Villa.

We've got enough bad teams between now and the seasons end to think about going for it, but better to win the league!
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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #222 on: March 22, 2014, 02:08:32 pm »
You know that these are exciting, potentially earth-shattering times, when the premier writer on RAWK contributes weekly masterpieces, and not just occasional (in the temporal not the literary sense) superb articles.

E2K, you've always been my favourite writer on here. Thanks again, and I'm glad you're doing so often  :wave

He's a bit special, it has to be said eh mate? :)

Offline victorian

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #223 on: April 2, 2014, 06:29:54 pm »
totally lovin' how we are the romantic underdogs that the other neutrals are rooting for, and for stevie g as well. if there's anyone who deserves to lift the trophy more, it'll be him! YNWA  :champ
"Mind you, I've been here during the bad times too - one year we came second."

- Bob Paisley